Heihô sanjûgo kajô: musashi's other book....?

[Zaphiel]

hi guys
...i'm not sure...but perhaps this thread belongs into the history section...if it does :sorry!!

i've read of a book called Heihô sanjûgo kajô (35 articles to the matirial-art of swords) written by miyamoto musashi 1641 as a kind of book to be read before you read the book of the five rings.
and because i've some problems with understanding what musashi wants to tell in his book of the five rings i wondered if anybody can tell me what the contents of this book(i mean the heihô) is and where one can buy it!
thanks<rei>
felix

[Twobitmage]

if i'm thinking of the right thing, you're thinking of a list of "rules" that musashi wrote to beginning swordsman. will they make you fight better? mebbe not. will they make you a better person? possibly.

Heres a copy of it

I never act contrary to traditional morality

I have no partiality for anyone or anything

I never try to snatch a moment of ease

I think little of myself but much of the public

I am entirely free of acquisitiveness throughout my life

I never regret what I have done

I never envy others for their good luck, or on account of my ill luck

I never grieve at parting from anyone or anything at whatever time

I never reproach either myself or others;never complain about myself or others

I never dream of falling in love

Likes and dislikes, I have none

Whatever my dewlling house may be, I take no objection to it

I never desire dainty food for myself

I never have antique objects or curios in my posession

I never perform purification or observe abstinence to protect myself against evils

I have no taste for implements of any kind, excepting swords and other arms

I would never grudge my life in the cause of righteousness

I never wish to hae any estate that would make my old age comfortable

I worship gods and buddhas but never think of depending on them

I would sooner lay down my life than disgrace my good name

Never for a moment does my heart and soul stray from the way of swordsmanship

[Hyaku]

You will have difficulty because its application is towards Musashi's philosophy and practice for his students, although it is possible to take small parts and apply them to Kendo. Musashi tells us to learn the weapons and put them down rather than pick them up and learn from them.

If you look at number six and expound on it....

Waga koto ni oite, kokai wo sezu

Never have regrets about oneself: This means you are the one that has to come to terms with yourself. Your confession in life is to yourself. There should be no regret in human lives.

So is there a way of being able to not regret anything? It would be impossible to say that one cannot have any regret at all. But there is a way towards this. This is when one can reform oneself and go out into this exceedingly big world. To get the know that world without any regrets.

Musashi writes, In order to express this Gorin no Sho is based on, "The way to heaven and Kannon as a mirror". This is what you in your mind when you make a confession to yourself.

So what is meant by "As a mirror?" Zendo Daishi (613 - 681 CE, one of the Seven Patriarchs of Jodo-Shinshu) wrote, "A lesson is like a mirror". This means not seeing an image of yourself on that mirror.

It means the time realize that mirror and the lessons are becoming one thing. So it was said that Musashi had a life between the way to Kannon1 and heaven, then become one by the principle of, "Build yourself up and wake up to the realities of life.

In Buddhism the "Realization of yourself" is called the root of making a confession. Making a confession would seem to have a meaning similar to, "To think over what we have done, to have regret and be ashamed of yourself". But actually they are different. "Thinking over" means you look back on what you have done and to promise to yourself that it will never happen again.

Regret means that you reprehend yourself for what you have done.........
© Hyakutake-Watkin 2004 All right reserved.
.........

This continues into a number of pages. Its comes from Buddhist quotations with deep meaning and is far from just a list of do's and donts.

Just a small free preview. Sorry you will have to wait for the rest until its finished and published.

[Twobitmage]

ahh very neat. Writing a book I see.

I would be very happy if I get a free copy of that book. Especially since you're so handsome and smart and good at kendo :smiley:

[Zaphiel]

well guys thanks...but what you (twobitmage) wrote are the 21 rules to selfdisiplin....musashi wrote them just before he died and that was in 1645...what i'm looking for is a book he wrote 4 years before in1641 for his later and only lord tadatoshi

[Hyaku]

No copies of that are available. But Dokkodo is a summary of this and Gorin no Sho.

[Zaphiel]

No copies of that are available. But Dokkodo is a summary of this and Gorin no Sho.Dokkodo?...a book i suppose?...where is that availabel?...internet...bookshop..?

[Hyaku]

No copies of that are available. But Dokkodo is a summary of this and Gorin no Sho.

You just got a preview!

[shotoblogger]

No copies of that are available. But Dokkodo is a summary of this and Gorin no Sho.
Hyaku,
Does that mean no copies are available or no English copies are available? If the former, does it mean there is no copy extant or non have been reproduced?

[Zaphiel]

I wanna have this book......:robot:

[Musha]

That extract is quite interesting Hyaku, I was thinking very recently and after watching the 1955 version of the book written about Musashi's life.

Japanese can not really be translated because it is not a European language. Some words mean many things and might not be at all what you think they might mean by the translation.
In a martial arts context words mean more, when you understand and have practised what is being said. Buddhism also plays a great part in Japanese martial arts and there are many similarities.
More over Musashi's book was written in the 1600s and the wording, spelling and characters would have been very different.

The 'Gorin no sho' isn't even an actual book, it is a series of scrolls.
The words will not make sense to you without life experience that you have no possibility of gaining being illegal to kill a person even with there consent. And I do not think people would be eager to rise from being a criminal? living in the woods with no money to a rich person with a high degree of respect.

[Musha]

Musashi him self would have gained his knowledge from life experience and wanted to transmit it to his followers as his legacy. This is done because traditional martial arts and ways were passed down directly from master to pupil. This is unlike how modern kendo is performed by millions of people who each take a different master from the many dojyos in each country so the teachings get extreemly vague indeed.

Even through Musashi him self's teachings, it would not be understood by the pupil untill he had practiced and as Musashi says in his book does not stray from the true path.

So this is why the 'Gorin no sho' and Musashi's teachings any other matial art and thinking can not be easily learned from a book.

[Hyaku]

That extract is quite interesting Hyaku, I was thinking very recently and after watching the 1955 version of the book written about Musashi's life.

Japanese can not really be translated because it is not a European language. Some words mean many things and might not be at all what you think they might mean by the translation. In a martial arts context words mean more, when you understand and have practised what is being said. Buddhism also plays a great part in Japanese martial arts and there are many similarities. More over Musashi's book was written in the 1600s and the wording, spelling and characters would have been very different.


Sorry I did not realize you were such an expert on Japanese.

Believe it or not there are scholars that are able to do an accurate transition of classical Japanese into modern usage. If this was not the case the majority of Japanese history and culture would be unknown to us. Every schoolchild studies Japanese in modern and classical form to examine the roots of the language.

In turn it is possible to rewrite it in other languages otherwise we should perhaps tell people like William Scott -Wilson to give up as nobody believes what he writes and tell other scholars of Asian studies that they are wasting their time.

Also the study of Buddhism helps to understand the deep meaning what Musashi wrote as a summation of his life. A lot of what he wrote is more the coincidental considering the views of his friend the priest Takuan and of Shingon Buddhism. There are also many similarities to Zen and studies of the Gateless Gate a collection of Chinese Koans.

The 'Gorin no sho' isn't even an actual book, it is a series of scrolls. The words will not make sense to you without life experience that you have no possibility of gaining being illegal to kill a person even with there consent. And I do not think people would be eager to rise from being a criminal? living in the woods with no money to a rich person with a high degree of respect.

Sorry you have lost me with the last bit of that. Musashi never had a mind for asking for more in his own house. "Whenever, wherever you sleep or wake, although you stay somewhere, there are always the flowers, always the moon, always as it is, at this moment in time.

I was trying to help by posting a little from my as yet unpublished works of a translation of Dokkodo, its meaning and a detailed manual of the Ito and Nito Seiho of the ryu. In fact I was thinking of putting the whole lot online for free.

In view of the apathy shown I might as well just delete it all.

[Musha]

Sorry I hert your feelings Hayaku :). I was trying to express my opinion on things but I see this forum is still a 'Don't disagree unless others feel the same way forum' so :D...

What is your opinion on every day people reading the 'Gorin no sho' Hyaku? Do you think some one who has never or is just starting to learn a martial art such as Jyudo would find it useful? Or some one who has no knowledge of martial arts such as a business man or woman as some copies of the book say it might be useful for.

[Future Head]

Believe it or not there are scholars that are able to do an accurate transition of classical Japanese into modern usage. If this was not the case the majority of Japanese history and culture would be unknown to us. Every schoolchild studies Japanese in modern and classical form to examine the roots of the language.

It's very hard to get a full translation from one language to another, even if you can translate most of it. I think the point had more to do with the meaning of specific words -- for example, there's no word in English that fully mirrors the meaning of zanshin. You even see this happen when translating between latin-based languages. The closest French equivalent of "duty," devoir, doesn't carry the full philosophical weight of meaning. Sometimes a phrase or sentencemust be used in one language where a single word suffices in another.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I have to agree that Japanese IS basically translatable into english. It's true to say that some parts are tricky, although I do wonder if a lot of the problems stem from the english reader not having a sufficient understanding of their own language - how can you expect to understand complex ideas originally expressed in another language if you can't do the same with your own?
At the same time, Japanese does throw up its fair share of problems. I'm sure that anybody who has encountered makura-kotoba has spent a bit of time struggling with just how to translate them without sounding foolish. To be fair, considering the fact that even Japanese scholars don't know the true meaning of some, there's no real need to beat yourself up about them.
Well, anyway, I wouldn't go and delete it all Hyaku! I'm sure that most of the people who would take a genuine interest in the work don't even come to this forum anyway.

[Musha]

People, I am not talking about literal translation here at all. For one I am talking about the 'Go rin no sho'. I took it that Hayaku him self said that the book is not intended for every one. It is intended for people who follow Musashi's own style thought by his follower(s).
As I said the book was not written in modern Japanese and I think there are some cultural things that are expressed in his words that some people may not understand. Imagine if a Shakespeare play was written in another language such as Japanese or Spanish and no one had a clue what the play is about and no idea what some of the innuendoes and hidden meanings were.

In the Gorin no sho Kodansha William Scott Wilson addition Musashi says

'Taking up my brush at one revolution past the Hour of the Tiger 4:30am on the night of the tenth day of the Tenth Month, I begin this book.'

Why did Musashi write his book on this exact hour? If he really did... He writes his book at this time because at this time it is neither day or night. The night and day are one and Niten ichi ryu should be thought of as using one sword when you have two. Now what does this mean? Maybe Hayaku knows but even if I know the meaning, I can't fully understand it.

I wanted to write these posts because I have heard many people do not understand the Gorin no sho. It is hard to understand in English but not impossible. That's why I like kendo! and kenjyutsu! always some thing to learn :D.

[Zaphiel]

Sorry I hert your feelings Hayaku :). I was trying to express my opinion on things but I see this forum is still a 'Don't disagree unless others feel the same way forum' so :D...

What is your opinion on every day people reading the 'Gorin no sho' Hyaku? Do you think some one who has never or is just starting to learn a martial art such as Jyudo would find it useful? Or some one who has no knowledge of martial arts such as a business man or woman as some copies of the book say it might be useful for.
your right...i read it and I'm not doing kendo for a long time(6 month by now...??or 7..or 8....well dunno)...and i can't get a grip on the sort of thing he says cause he is telling sometimes quiete the difference to what all kendo senseis say.....!!
I myself just feel like i will read it again in one year and perhaps i'll understand then...

[Kingofmyrrh]

I'm aware that it's not modern japanese, but that doesn't mean that it can't be translated. There are some excellent japanese translations of shakespeare around, although of course it would not be possible for someone without the requisite grasp of both japanese and english to do the job properly. Actually, go rin no sho is written in pretty easy to understand japanese. Of course, finding the meaning within is a different matter. However, that has nothing to do with it being in japanese, and everything to do with the subject matter. If you want shakespeare level stuff, then you're probably best off looking for someone other than a rural bushi

[Hyaku]

In the Gorin no sho Kodansha William Scott Wilson addition Musashi says

'Taking up my brush at one revolution past the Hour of the Tiger 4:30am on the night of the tenth day of the Tenth Month, I begin this book.'

Why did Musashi write his book on this exact hour? If he really did... Dutch traders took VERGE and FOLIOT clocks to Japan in 1600. The Japanese copied these, but did not follow European trends. Instead, they adapted clocks to show Japanese hours. Until as late as 1873, a day was divided into six night hours and six day hours. Since periods of daylight altered through the year, so did the lengths of both day and night hours. Clocks were therefore made to go one RATE in the day and another at night, by using two foliots. Hour divisions could be adjusted by hand, or dials replaced by others at each month. Each six hour period was numbered backwards 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, and 4, starting from 12 noon and midnight. Striking followed suit etc.

So clocks had been around forty years when he wrote. People sometimes record the time they start to write something they consider to be important. They get up very early here too especially older people. I often go to the Dojo before 5:00.


He writes his book at this time because at this time it is neither day or night. The night and day are one and Niten ichi ryu should be thought of as using one sword when you have two. Now what does this mean? :D.
What it says I would guess. When we used two swords we use them as if we hold one.

[litige]

They get up very early here too especially older people. I often go to the Dojo before 5:00.


When (time) do they go to sleep?

[Hyaku]

When (time) do they go to sleep?

Around 9:00

[litige]

Thanks!

That's so late for an early rising!