Why do we not wear ranking belts in Kendo?

[enkorat]

I was talking to a person interested in joining our club yesterday, and he asked if we wear rank belts under our hakama.

I know that we don't wear any outward signs of rank in kendo (and iaido?), I was wondering what the official reason/philosophy behind that was. I've always sort of taken it for granted as something that "just is", but thinking about it made me curious.

I've been in arts that have a whole rainbow of colored belts with various stripe combinations, and I've noticed that in those clubs people were generally much more rank conscious and rank competative.

Is it just that you don't need a physical belt to hold up a hakama? If so, how does it work in aikido?

Just curious

[Charlie]

Good question! I don't know the answer but I'll tell you one thing: I'm glad we don't wear outward insignia of rank. Could it be because in kendo there is a "team" or collaborative emphasis?

[DCPan]

FWIW,

I've seen some Kumdo Dojangs that makes their students wear colored nafuda/zekken. So, supposely, you'd have to buy another nafuda/zekken when you go up a color belt....

Also, some places in SCKF requests that you have a white loop on your keiko-gi if you are a mudansha wearing an indigo keiko-gi.

look at the kid's sleeve on the very right of the photo (http://www.geocities.com/covinakendo/nikkeitm02.jpg)

Personally, it doesn't take much to figure out what rank the other person is when you are practicing with them, unless they are really holding back. Kigurai is hard to hide.

:rolleyes:

[Neil Gendzwill]

I've been in arts that have a whole rainbow of colored belts with various stripe combinations, and I've noticed that in those clubs people were generally much more rank conscious and rank competative.

Got it in one. Also, kendo has closer ties to older arts than most modern budo, and pretty coloured belts are a modern invention.

We use rank patches for kids in our club (just for kyu). We've never had any adults complain that they want the same. Most adults get shodan in 2 or 3 years anyways.

[Swissv2]

The hakama has its own himo (strings) to hold it up.

In logical sense, there is no point in tying an extra belt around your waist. It would get too much in the way of the tare (armor that protects the waist, hips and thighs) and do (armor that protects the abdomen) first of all, making the area bulky and cumbersome.

So from a utilitarian point of view, there is no need for an extra belt. From a common logic point of view, once people know your rank is it necessary to remind them of your status every single time? Finally, even though one says their are a certain level of Kendo, I peronally believe it's their Kendo that should do the talking from then on.

Patches are nice, but whatever floats your boat!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Patches are nice, but whatever floats your boat!
We've found they are a good motivator for the kids. Other clubs/federations use them too (BCKF does, or used to). Like I said, adults don't much care.

[DCPan]

The hakama has its own himo (strings) to hold it up.

In logical sense, there is no point in tying an extra belt around your waist. It would get too much in the way of the tare (armor that protects the waist, hips and thighs) and do (armor that protects the abdomen) first of all, making the area bulky and cumbersome.

Well, it does get kinda bulky with the tare, but I actually wear an obi with the hakama.

You'll notice that people who use and don't use obi in kendo tie it slightly differently....

I personally don't like wearing only the tare when practicing kendo kata. But having the tare on properly could serve the same function as an obi, with regards to breathing.

FWIW.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yeah, but you're talking about a iaido obi, not the karate/judo type. The knot for those would be pretty uncomfortable.

[Will]

Maybe it's to make sure people extend respect to everyone because they won't be able to tell whether another person is a sensei or a beginner.

[JByrd]

To make an ostentatious display of rank would go against the basic Samurai ideal of modesty.

Another Samurai ideal is to develop refined judgement through careful observation. Anyone who knows what he is looking for can recognize an accomplished person without the aid of a colored belt.

[Kirin]

When I started kendo in Tokyo, Japan `73, there were colored men-himo representing kyu ranks for kids. This was unified color at least in Kantou area.
4-kyu under = white, 3-kyu = yellow, 2-kyu = red, 1-kyu = purple, and shodan up = indigo/blue.

They stopped this representation sometime in early 80's.
But still some dojos uses men-himo color as kyu rank representation.
(most dojo uses white men-himo for 1-kyu or below, and indigo/navy for dan)

[enkorat]

Very interesting, I had no idea about the men-himo thing.

Thanks!

[nalogg]

Got it in one. Also, kendo has closer ties to older arts than most modern budo, and pretty coloured belts are a modern invention.
Actually i heard that it's pretty old....
maybe modern in comparison to the history of samurai but still pretty old.

1532, or there around... that was then arts like judo and karate as "systems" were founded based of the existing budo arts...

the coloured belt thing was started by Jigoro Kano who based his art (judo) on the samurai "jujitsu" self defence and adapted it to the times...

he was the first guy who started awarding coloured belts to his students
(however the idea of colour denoting rank is something seen historically in japanese imperial court, so that's not a new idea.)

Ive also heard stories my old karate sensei used to tell about the idea of colours changing as you got up in rank was thought up because you didn't wash your belt... and as time went on and you practiced more, it would get more and more dirty... going from a clean white to yellowish, and then darker... etc etc and then finally it would be blackened with dirt and after that, all the clumps of dirt and grime would flake off and reveal the white base cotton again (which is why you'll actually sometimes see high ranking blackbelts with a belt that actually has the black flaking off to reveal white.)

AND relathing to this idea, Kano used to award the highest ranking judo-ka with white belts again once they surpassed a certain stage....but ones that were double wide, so they aren't mistaken for beginners.

it's like a complete circle

[Charlie]

1532, or there around... that was then arts like judo and karate as "systems" were founded based of the existing budo arts...

Judo was really developed in 1888-1905. Karate didn't make its way to mainland Japan until the 1920s.

[Neil Gendzwill]

the coloured belt thing was started by Jigoro Kano who based his art (judo) on the samurai "jujitsu" self defence and adapted it to the times...
Kano developed judo from jujutsu, but the kyu/dan part he got from what they were doing with swimming programs at the time I think. I believe the coloured belts to indicate kyu and dan were his own invention. IIRC he started only with white, brown and black. Older schools of bujutsu didn't use belts or dan - they sometimes had certificates of level within the school which were along the lines of initiate, student, instructor, master. You might have heard the term "menkyo kaiden" which was used to indicate a certificate of complete transmission of some koryu.

Short story - coloured belts are a modern invention. And no, the colours have nothing to do with how dirty the belt gets as you train.

[Lloromannic]

Kano developed judo from jujutsu, but the kyu/dan part he got from what they were doing with swimming programs at the time I think. I believe the coloured belts to indicate kyu and dan were his own invention. IIRC he started only with white, brown and black. Older schools of bujutsu didn't use belts or dan - they sometimes had certificates of level within the school which were along the lines of initiate, student, instructor, master. You might have heard the term "menkyo kaiden" which was used to indicate a certificate of complete transmission of some koryu.
I remember reading a book written by Jay Gluck who lived for a while with Mass Oyama (I think) and he said that in the old ays there was the white belt for beginners, the brown one for intermidiate and the black ones for advanced.

[hamish]

I think for the same reason we don't wear jewellery when training - there should be no difference between those who are teaching and those who are just beginning - we're all striving for the same thing, and its not a coloured belt!

The only things to be gained from wearing coloured belts etc. are negative as far as I can see (rank competitiveness etc. as Enkorat mentions.)

[KhawMengLee]

no belts needed! When you step into the dojo and the shinais are drawn, what you can do says 100 times more about your kendo then some fancy belt.

[dotnet]

I don't see the necessity for wearing a belt. If belts are worn to indicate the rank, the question should be: Why is it important to display the rank ? (Usually the people how insist on this do have a little ego-problem ;-))

One sensible answer to me is to let the partner know their respective training level, so they can adjust quicker. BUT how long is it going to take to evaluate s.o. during practice ? Not very long. So what is the point.

To motivate children is another story.

I have heard from someone that it makes him more aware of the responsibility he thinks he has as an advanced student (as a role model). But if you need a belt for this kind of dignity (or simply showing zanshin all the time) maybe you don't deserve it ..........

I believe a belt induces a cumbersome effect. People adjust themselfs towards the belt not the person. Although once you know the training partner it doesn't really matter anymore. But in your first encounter it might actually affect your zanshin. Without a belt you have to rely on your own judgement - which is good - rather than relying on a panels decision.

And to lead my last argument ad absurdum: It is a good training not to let yourself get distracted/ affected by the presentation of rank. So maybe it is just another lesson your are learning ;-)

As JByrd said: Modesty is part of the art.

Cheers,
dotnet

[Hai_hai]

That's why there is rich-boy show-off bogu.

[nalogg]

In karate and judo the belt kind of objectifies your progress.....

which is a good thing but also bad

on the bad side it could seem to some people like the belt is more important than your spirit and hard work "i am a _____ belt" rather than "I'm a hard-working karate-ka" you'll find people just striving for a belt, and announcing their belt level with too much pride/arrogance

on the good side, I was taught that your belt was a sacred kinda thing... you don't let your belt touch the floor, you don't let anybody else touch or take your belt, you tie your belt up tight and properly, you take it off and fold it neatly or knot it traditionally at the end of class before you leave the dojo... in this way you learn to respect your progress and your own skill which is partially responsible for the self esteem-giving quality of karate. Respecting your own skills, while bowing to/respecting those who have more skill is part of humility.

In Kendo, the Shinai and Bogu does the same thing kinda, objectifying humility. (objectifying things is not always bad, it helps us to understand) Though shinai and bogu obviously doesn't show rank, it's "something to respect" both respecting yourself and others you know what i'm sayin?

[Hai_hai]

In Kendo, the Shinai and Bogu does the same thing kinda, objectifying humility. (objectifying things is not always bad, it helps us to understand) Though shinai and bogu obviously doesn't show rank, it's "something to respect" both respecting yourself and others you know what i'm sayin?
This is very much like streetball. What you wear doesn't matter, except for the shoes. You prove yourself on the court. Then, your reputation is established on how you played. If you are new to the court and you are wearing shoes that are bling-bling, you are non-verbally increasing the expectation of others.

[dotnet]

in this way you learn to respect your progress and your own skill which is partially responsible for the self esteem-giving quality of karate. Respecting your own skills, while bowing to/respecting those who have more skill is part of humility.


Why is it necessary to rely on other peoples judgement to show self-respect ? In order to develop _sincere_ self-respect you have to be independent from other peoples judgement. Wearing a belt is the opposite. It may indicate that you lack self-confidence if you insist on it.

It might be a different story if it is disrespectful towards your sensei if he maintains that wearing a belt (colour-coded) is compulsory.

Concerning the respect towards 'those who have more skills'. I am respecting everyone. _Even_ someone who just started ;-). Showing respect dependent upon rank is IMHO superficial. I respect a person due to his character. And a rank sometimes only displays the technical skill.

Cheers, dotnet

[Hai_hai]

...Concerning the respect towards 'those who have more skills'. I am respecting everyone. _Even_ someone who just started ;-). Showing respect dependent upon rank is IMHO superficial. I respect a person due to his character. And a rank sometimes only displays the technical skill...
Everyone respects each other in the dojo. However, in the dojo, it is proper to show extra respect to those who are senior to you by bowing first, lower, multiple times, etc. This is an Asian thing.
That line-up in the dojo shows rank. If you want you think that line-up is superficial, then, sit to the left of any person you think doesn't deserve his/her rank.

[nalogg]

Why is it necessary to rely on other peoples judgement to show self-respect ?i didn't say anything about "other people's judgement" why do you assume that's what a belt is for?

In order to develop _sincere_ self-respect you have to be independent from other peoples judgement. Wearing a belt is the opposite. It may indicate that you lack self-confidence if you insist on it.
I agree partially that self respect relies HEAVILY on being independent from others' judgement, but how does wearing a belt equal my reliance on the judgement of others? (though 3 sensei were judging my technical skill to give me the belt, but this is done in kendo too)

Concerning the respect towards 'those who have more skills'. I am respecting everyone. _Even_ someone who just started ;-). Showing respect dependent upon rank is IMHO superficial. I respect a person due to his character. And a rank sometimes only displays the technical skill.
My bad
I didn't mean to say that there's disrespect towards those that have lower belts (geez, I say something that might not have expressed my thought perfectly exact, and people will pick out the tiniest loophole in my wording!)

"respect others" is the fourth line of the "Hitosu" Shotokan dojo code

keep on rockin

[enkorat]

Hmm...

I suppose because of variations between dojo's that this isn't the result of some kendo-wide policy?

I know that somewhere the rules and guidelines of kendo are written somewhere... I suppose this isn't something that's written in there along with everything else?

Just curious

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well, in kendo everyone's who's been playing for more than a couple of years has dan, so for adults any indication wouldn't be so useful. Unlike judo, say, where you can slug it out for 10 years before getting shodan.

I think there are some rules regarding uniform wear in the shiai regulations. I don't think they prohibit shoulder patches, lots of clubs have them. So if you wanted to make some sparkly batches labelled "BB" and add some blinking neon hash bars to indicate which dan, you could.

[Hai_hai]

Maybe people should be given a sticker to put on their do.
1. Gold star - top level
2. Silver star - medium level
3. Brown oval - everyone else

[jmarsten]

[QUOTE=Neil Gendzwill]Well, in kendo everyone's who's been playing for more than a couple of years has dan, so for adults any indication wouldn't be so useful. Unlike judo, say, where you can slug it out for 10 years before getting shodan.

I think most of the countries require much more than a couple of years. Of course in Japan, Korea and Taiwan? you can get shodan in a year. Normal here is 4-5 years in general and the good ones make sandan at about 10 years. I personally require of my students 450 documented hours of practice attended before they can test for shodan. Now they could get in 450 hours in a year but that means kendo almost every day. Haven't seen too many doing that. Most of them average about 70-80 hours a year. Currently for 2004 I have 297 hours of practice in. I average about 10 hours a week.

[JSchmidt]

I personally require of my students 450 documented hours of practice attended before they can test for shodan.
I'm going to test for my sandan in December and have been practicing kendo for around 5 years. I will be taking the test in Belgium (Where I also took my nidan) and where most people will have been through the whole 6-1st kyu system and yet I got no doubt that I will be just as qualified as the rest of the applicants. This was very obvious when I watched the grading 2 years ago. The UK applicants (Who's first grading is ikkyu) were just as qualified as the people who had practice for 2-3 years more.
I don't think it's because the UK teaching is better, but that having ikkyu as a first 'target' gives much more emphasis on working towards that, rather than thinking about whats required for passing 5th kyu.
In short, I believe that the whole 6-5-4 etc kyu system is holding people back, rather than encouraging them to work harder.
While I haven't practiced kendo in the US, my travels around the world has lead me to believe that there's virtually no difference between shodans in the UK who got their grade in less than 2 years than shodans else where (Europe, NZ, Australia), who spent 4+ years to get there, which seem to back my theory.

Jakob

[Paburo]

i read about the coloured men himo before as well, used for childrens kyuu but not for adults.

basically, the main idea here is that coloured stuff on your outfit is rather childish, immature and unnecessarily fancy?

[samurai999]

i read about the coloured men himo before as well, used for childrens kyuu but not for adults.

basically, the main idea here is that coloured stuff on your outfit is rather childish, immature and unnecessarily fancy?

Hongsermeier's wife used to wear red men himo before the shimpans mistook it for a red tasuki and told her to take it off. LOL

But as for ranks, we usually don't wear anything. You usually can tell whos a 1dan, 2dan, kyu, etc.

Tim

[nalogg]

Maybe people should be given a sticker to put on their do.
1. Gold star - top level
2. Silver star - medium level
3. Brown oval - everyone else

HHHHHAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
"brown oval"
that one made me spit orange juice

or a brown poo-shaped sticker! HAHAHa

[dotnet]

Everyone respects each other in the dojo. However, in the dojo, it is proper to show extra respect to those who are senior to you by bowing first, lower, multiple times, etc.

I have made a different experience. Sometimes not even courtesies are adhered to.

Respect - in my definition - and I don't know if I am wrong here - is something more. It is more than just courtesies and formalities. It is determined by the persons character, actions, behaviour, etc. Rank is secondary IMHO. I will certainly adhere to the proper courtesies required.


This is an Asian thing.
That line-up in the dojo shows rank. If you want you think that line-up is superficial, then, sit to the left of any person you think doesn't deserve his/her rank.

I was commenting on rank in the relation self-confidence / belt. I said it is wrong in order to develop true self-confindece.

As you might have read in my post, I do not condem waering a belt, if it is disrespctful or against etiquette. Sitting in a position that does not represent you rank is against most dojos etiquette. I would not do such a thing. I have been thought to look out for this and I also believe it is a sensibel thing to do.

Cheers,
dotnet


i didn't say anything about "other people's judgement" why do you assume that's what a belt is for?


If I understood it correctly, you said that wearing a belt is good for promoting self-esteem. Now a belt is usually given to you by someone else who has been judging you. It is a sign of excellence that has been awarded to you by an able panel. Others also regard it this way. It certainly has the potential to 'show off'.
I believe it is not genuine self-esteen /confindence if you have to tell yourself: 'I have attained a certain level because someone who is really good has told me so (certificate/ belt, etc)' to gain this self confidence.

But I did not mean to insult you. I am happy to learn what this belt means to you and why it develops true self-esteem.


[...] but how does wearing a belt equal my reliance on the judgement of others? (though 3 sensei were judging my technical skill to give me the belt, but this is done in kendo too)


It is to be unsterstood in relation to self-esteem/ confidence. As I said earlier, a belt represents a panels decision for me. It is something that is awarded to by others.
If you insist on wearing it, this may show, that you do not trust your own abilities and you have to rely on other peoples judgement (the belt). [I have the belt -> therefore I am good/ better than someone else/ have achieved a certain level/ whatever] I don't consider this true self-esteem.


My bad
I didn't mean to say that there's disrespect towards those that have lower belts (geez, I say something that might not have expressed my thought perfectly exact, and people will pick out the tiniest loophole in my wording!)




Relax ;) Good to know you did not mean this way.

Cheers,
dotnet

[jmarsten]

I'm going to test for my sandan in December and have been practicing kendo for around 5 years. I will be taking the test in Belgium (Where I also took my nidan) and where most people will have been through the whole 6-1st kyu system and yet I got no doubt that I will be just as qualified as the rest of the applicants. This was very obvious when I watched the grading 2 years ago. The UK applicants (Who's first grading is ikkyu) were just as qualified as the people who had practice for 2-3 years more.
I don't think it's because the UK teaching is better, but that having ikkyu as a first 'target' gives much more emphasis on working towards that, rather than thinking about whats required for passing 5th kyu.
In short, I believe that the whole 6-5-4 etc kyu system is holding people back, rather than encouraging them to work harder.
While I haven't practiced kendo in the US, my travels around the world has lead me to believe that there's virtually no difference between shodans in the UK who got their grade in less than 2 years than shodans else where (Europe, NZ, Australia), who spent 4+ years to get there, which seem to back my theory.

Jakob I don't recall saying anything about taking a bunch of kyu tests. I believe those ranks are for kids. In the US you may test for ikkyu as your first test. We follow the IKF rules. What I said was I required a certain number of hours of practice. If they get that is 6 months fine, if it takes them 6 years not a problem for me. If they are in a hurry to get a rank then they can shoot for 3rd kyu. It is up to the student. I personally would not have gradings for anything under ikkyu but I am not the person who makes the decision. Our regional federation makes those decisions. The reason they have stuck to adults starting at 3 kyu is because when we bring all of the examinees together we find a great deal of disparity between the different clubs. We have 20 clubs in our federation with about 4oo members in the federation. If we started out at ikkyu more than half of the candidates would be failed. Then the examiners are the bad guys and are made the police for the dojo that shove unqualified people up to test.
If you measure what a kid in Japan does to get to shodan say in their HS club they have daily practice. Soom schools have twice daily practice. That equates to a block of hours of practice. There is only one way to be good and that is do the time on the floor and do it correctly.
Now either you are a prodigy or you practice 10 + hours a week. I have no way of knowing which. I can say that in my experience that to be at a level that is a run of the mill shodan around here you are not going to do it practicing a few hours a week.
Unlike a lot of the areas you mentioned were there are very few kids, in the US and Canada we have lots of kids starting kendo. Many of whom begin between 6-8 years old. This means to get shodan at 14 which is the youngest you can get it they have 6-8 years of practice. Now at 16 they are in with your group. So you would be testing with 16 and 17 year olds with 10 + years. By the time they go for sandan at 18 + they have a couple more years of practice. So we expect people to be equivilant to a Japanese sandan of the same age group.

[Charlie]

My personal experience was similar to Jakob's. I have also seen people going for ikkyu that weren't quite ready for it. At the testings I've encountered, the person that was not ready for ikkyu was given 2nd or sometimes 3rd kyu and encouraged to come back and try again. The shodan and other dan tests have also become harder, I think. This is in the Midwest Kendo Federation, btw.

[Charlie]

Oh! I wanted to add that I think the original purpose of belts was more for organizational purposes than rank. That way it's real easy, on the mats, to go, "All right, break up, white belts here with So-and-so-sensei, browns over there, and black belts here." You ever see this in kendo? Usually it's pell mell. "What rank? Where?" "Excuse, me, sir, what is your grade? Oh? I'm supposed to be over there."

In big groups like that, what I and my club members do is, if sensei says "shodans here" and you're a shodan, run to that spot immediately, hold your fist up and say, "Shodan! Shodans here!" and try and help get all the shodans in one spot. Etc.

[Kichigai]

Odd, I was thinking about this subject just yesterday...

Now, this is merely supposition, but I wonder if this system is in place to promote general respect. If you are new to a certain dojo, it may be very difficult to distinguish a san-dan from a go-kyu, and as such, respect must be maintained and afforded to all. This level of aethestical uniformity maintains this respect, as all appear to be anonymous and devoid of any rank marking.

One might counter my argument with the fact that more respect is paid to the master. Well, in many koryu (like Kenjutsu), there are simply two rankings: master and student. There are no overly complex / arbitrarilly distributed belt levels.

My two cents.

[Vortex]

At my dojo we have a type of " pegboard " system. Sensei puts your name on a 1" by 5" piece of wood and puts it on the " ladder " under your rank. I dont know about anyone else in the dojo but when I first started even though I was under the "New" peg, it didnt matter to me. I looked up to that wood that has my name on it and I was just proud to have it up there, no matter what peg rank it was under. I dont think belts or even the ladder system we have is nessasary, but I do like the pride of having my name up there in the group with all the others. To me the rank doesnt matter, the fact that I am where I belong with my fellow kendoists does, here, at the dojo. My other home.

Vortex

[Hai_hai]

At my dojo we have a type of " pegboard " system. Sensei puts your name on a 1" by 5" piece of wood and puts it on the " ladder " under your rank. I dont know about anyone else in the dojo but when I first started even though I was under the "New" peg, it didnt matter to me. I looked up to that wood that has my name on it and I was just proud to have it up there, no matter what peg rank it was under. I dont think belts or even the ladder system we have is nessasary, but I do like the pride of having my name up there in the group with all the others. To me the rank doesnt matter, the fact that I am where I belong with my fellow kendoists does, here, at the dojo. My other home.

Vortex
So, if your name was removed from the pegboard, you would not have any pride? What if it accidentally fell off and was swept up by an unknowing janitor.

[Vortex]

I was just saying I'm just happy to be there. Proud to be one of the many fellow kedoists who study there. Proud for myself, my fellow kendoists, my Sensei and my dojo.

[Hai_hai]

I was just saying I'm just happy to be there. Proud to be one of the many fellow kedoists who study there. Proud for myself, my fellow kendoists, my Sensei and my dojo.
I was just kidding.

[cBEx]

I remember reading a book written by Jay Gluck who lived for a while with Mass Oyama (I think) and he said that in the old ays there was the white belt for beginners, the brown one for intermidiate and the black ones for advanced.
Yes in deed in the old days it was white, brown and black. However after founding Kyokushinkai ryu, Sosai Masutatsu Oyama adopted the common colored belts. white, yellow, orange, green, blue, brown and black. Then after getting shodan, you get little golden bars on you belt for each dan. After Mas Oyama died, the color system was rearranged to follow somekind of signification related to yoga?!?! Mas Oyama was also a fervent of yoga! Some karate ryu still follow the old white, brown and black belt color ranking. For instance, schools associated to the Shotokan Karate of America (SKA) still use this system. White from kyu 9 to 3 than brown for kyu 3 to 1st and than black for dan levels... Nothing however on the black belt to differenciate a shodan from a godan!

Cheers!

[Hai_hai]

You don't have to earn a black belt anymore. They are available for purchase at www.awma.com

[Usagi San]

[QUOTE=cBEx] White from kyu 9 to 3 than brown for kyu 3 to 1st and than black for dan levels... Nothing however on the black belt to differenciate a shodan from a godan! QUOTE]
When I started shito-ryu karate in the early seventies it was just like that, white, brown & black, only it was: white from 9th to 2nd. Brown for first kyu, and the rest same thing.

[cBEx]

You don't have to earn a black belt anymore. They are available for purchase at www.awma.com
Nice product placement Hai Hai! LOL! :-)

[Ishii]

The fewer colors in Kendo, the better. Simplicity is advantage :)

[Hai_hai]

The fewer colors in Kendo, the better. Simplicity is advantage :)
Depends. You can get a red, white, and blue hakama at www.awma.com

[Hai_hai]

Nice product placement Hai Hai! LOL! :-)
Real ninjas shop at www.awma.com

[Wout]

Real ninjas shop at www.awma.com (http://www.awma.com/)http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/9978.htm

ah so this is what a kendo hakama looks like, man I would never known without this site, I always thought they looked like this http://www.e-bogu.com/High_Quality_Light_weight_100_Cotton_Hakama_Size_p/tak-ken-hak-hqlitecot-navy-all.htm
.

[enkorat]

omg...

I burst out laughing when I saw that hakama. Course the 'traditional kendo' hakama is being shown with someone who's using a staff...

Never realized that a hakama comes in the american flag pattern....

[samurai999]

for those who couldn't figure out why we didn't have kendo belts, now try figuring that out as a system of rank.. The red hakama symbolizes 3kyu?*rolling eyes* Note how the description says "traditional"..

http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/displayProducts/level/6|36.htm
assorted colors too..

Tim

[shotoblogger]

Ive also heard stories my old karate sensei used to tell about the idea of colours changing as you got up in rank was thought up because you didn't wash your belt... and as time went on and you practiced more, it would get more and more dirty... going from a clean white to yellowish, and then darker... etc etc and then finally it would be blackened with dirt and after that, all the clumps of dirt and grime would flake off and reveal the white base cotton again (which is why you'll actually sometimes see high ranking blackbelts with a belt that actually has the black flaking off to reveal white.)

AND relathing to this idea, Kano used to award the highest ranking judo-ka with white belts again once they surpassed a certain stage....but ones that were double wide, so they aren't mistaken for beginners.
Oh, man!! nalogg, you could use a good dose of 24fightingchickens.com I wish it was still up, so I could direct you there. These stories about grass stains and not washing belts, etc. are simply BS. If you start considering the importance of cleanliness in Shinto religious practice, the absence of modern-style training gi's and belts in olden times, and a variety of other factors, you'll realize that not only are the stories not accurate, they're ridiculous. These are things karate teachers pass on without investigation.

Also, in his book The Spirit of Budo, Trevor Leggit says that upper-ranking judo practitioners got red and white striped belts. I suspect this was the style Kano used, and it probably accounts for the silly "10th-dan soke karate masters" out there that wear red belts.

[nalogg]

Oh, man!! nalogg, you could use a good dose of 24fightingchickens.com I wish it was still up, so I could direct you there. These stories about grass stains and not washing belts, etc. are simply BS. If you start considering the importance of cleanliness in Shinto religious practice, the absence of modern-style training gi's and belts in olden times, and a variety of other factors, you'll realize that not only are the stories not accurate, they're ridiculous. These are things karate teachers pass on without investigation.

Also, in his book The Spirit of Budo, Trevor Leggit says that upper-ranking judo practitioners got red and white striped belts. I suspect this was the style Kano used, and it probably accounts for the silly "10th-dan soke karate masters" out there that wear red belts.
SHOTO!
I've seen that site!
i read all those awesome stories about japan he wrote....
but never his take on the coloured belts... mostly his hitosu-related rants... which were very well-founded.
but i went back there like 6 months ago to find it was down!
what happened to that site?
it seems EERIE that it's gone so suddenly.

I wasn't saying that i'm the ultimate authority on karate.... it was just something my sensei told me, and it was probably told to him by a sensei too... somewhere along the line someone could have made it up.

so ease up off my sack yall! ;)

[shotobouv]

SHOTO!
I've seen that site!
i read all those awesome stories about japan he wrote....
but never his take on the coloured belts... mostly his hitosu-related rants... which were very well-founded.
but i went back there like 6 months ago to find it was down!
what happened to that site?
it seems EERIE that it's gone so suddenly.

I wasn't saying that i'm the ultimate authority on karate.... it was just something my sensei told me, and it was probably told to him by a sensei too... somewhere along the line someone could have made it up.

so ease up off my sack yall! ;)The site 24 fighting chickens is retired, for want of a better explaination.

As for belts in karate, they have many uses.

It can keep the jacket closed.
You can use the knot of the belt for breathing exercises, the belt should be at your center.
If the knot is at your center, you can alway keep it pointed at your opponent when sparing.
You can take off the belt and use it for targeting.
You can also use the belt for resistance training and where to apply power in the step, and to keep balance.

The color of the belt is to help distinguish the level of training. So you can see roughly where you need to train at to elevate them, or push them, not to fail, but to excel.

It takes about 4 years, training 6-8 hours a week to reach black belt level. I have heard a saying that when you reach shodan, you are an experienced beginner. There is much to learn, explore and perfect.

I have also heard and used the story of the white belt being used to clean the floor until it is black. I think it is more of a learning story, that lower belts should clean the floor before and after practice, to become black belts faster.

The one thing about black belt level is that when doing kumite/sparing you are always on guard. With lower belts, they are not at the level yet.

Hope that help some.

[Infinity]

i have been training in kendo for 11 months and i dont think i am ready to be graded. i would much rather wait for another 11 months before attemping any kyu grade. grading is not really important to me at this stage. training hard and learning something new every lesson is my goal. long term goals are good and i do have a few, but they dont include grades just yet.
i was told recently that i should go for grading soon even if im not too confident about my skills so i can get some experience in a grading atmosphere. i have no fear of failing but i wonder if going for a grade before im ready and failing would be a positive experience.
as for knowing everyone else's grade without a coloured belt, thats easy for beginners. every else in the dojo knows more and can do more than you so obviously their grade is higher than yours. how much higher doesnt matter.

[crabbi]

When I started studying Shorinji Kempo 25 years ago... (Aaaaagh ... getting old)... I was told that the coloured belts for Kyu grades had been introduced to satisfy the westerners need for an outward display of rank.

The colours started at white, then progressed through yellow, green, blue to brown which was / is ikkyu. This was regarded as the first grade at which you could teach (juniors).

When you grade shodan, there is a whole new range of new skills that are taught... so you are in a very true sense recognised as being a beginner again. Also, as a shodan you can wear the robes that distinguish the Shorinji Kempo sensei from those of other Martial Arts. To see this look at : http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/index.html

However, traditionally, in Japan, I believe that they used the White Belt for beginners, all the way through the Kyu grades up to First Kyu... at this point they wore the brown belt to make it easy to identify them as junior teachers.

As has been observed elsewhere in this thread... outward displays of rank in Kendo are totally redundant as the ability and attitude of the Kendoka speaks for itself...

cheers

crabbi

[Banza Joe]

Coloured belts may well be a good idea in judo and jitsu style arts. You don't wanna throw a n00b to the grown and risk breaking his neck cos he/she doesn't know how to fall. if he/she has a coloured belt on showing rank, you immediately know their potential capabilities.
Further to this..... it took me 10 years of hard training, fighting off injury after injury to get to shodan in aikido. When i was awarded it, it was the only time that i felt ready for it. Ok, it was nice to at last be able to put the black belt around my waist after it had eluded me for so long, but the most poignant moment was when all my fellow colleagues told me how much i deserved it and that it was well overdue. That meant more to me than anything else. And for me the belt symbolises the hard work and reminds me of how far i've come, yet still how much further i have to go.

i have been training in kendo for only 5 months now. I expect to try for ikkyu in another years time. Most of my club graded last month, mainly to nikkyu (they have been training about 3-4 months longer than me), but i didnt feel ready and respectfully told my sensei so. He wanted me to go for it, but understood, didn't mind at all and that was that.
There are newer n00bs at our club now, but while i can learn and develop at every single lesson from just about every single person i train with, i have no need to grade just yet.
So, as most people have already said, its not the belt or even the grade, its the person and their art that speaks volumes.

[crabbi]

'...There are newer n00bs at our club now, but while i can learn and develop at every single lesson from just about every single person i train with ...' Beautifully put Banza Joe!!

My sentiments exactly!!

Cheers

crabbi