Hardest part of kendo?

[munenmuso]

Hey guys, what do you think is the hardest part in kendo you ever experienced?

Is it the waza part, jikeiko, shiai or kata, etc? Or perhaps you can include the bad politicking in your dojo to begin with or students with bad attitude or what ever there is in order?

Well personally, the hardest part for me in kendo is forcing myself to go to the dojo. I can feel it even before I was there.

[nodachi]

Really trying hard to improve things you know you need to improve from one practice to the next, only to find that after you have improved on those things for the next practice you have a brand new list of so many different things to improve on.

Lather Rinse Repeat...

The hardest part for me, yet that is one reason why I like Kendo so much.

[JSchmidt]

Men-uchi

Jakob

[kendokamax]

for me kote uchi

[John W]

Well I could write a very long list here but I think most of the problems stem from my mind doing a running commentary whilst in the heat of battle.

Example: "oh look I can get men NOW!, well maybe not. How about kote? No way too close for that!! Er... erm..." And so on.

It is very difficult for me to tell my mind to shut up. Having said this, it is comforting to know that very senior kendoka have this similar problem of temptation when they fight someone.
Like that 7th Dan from the documentary on the National Geographic channel who was grading for his 8th Dan. He always mentioned that he was tempted to strike a target and he wrote sheets upon sheets of paper about his thoughts as he went for the 8th Dan grading but most of the time this "temptation" to cut was the major thorn in his side.

Perhaps one day through hard training I can tell that little voice to be silent while the fight is on.

:)

[munenmuso]

How come I get this feeling that it is easy to score in keiko than in a shiai. And your opponent in keiko suddenly improves a lot and can thrash you down in a shiai.Or there is a sudden paradigm shift during this conditions.To add, can someone explain this or somebody experienced this also.

Or is it because in shiai, there is a shinpan that makes a lot difficult to score because in keiko our points are only assumed by our own judgement not by the third person like the referee in a shiai?

[alexpollijr]

Maybe because keiko is for putting your waza to the test. In shiai people are more careful and more dodgy/blocky than in the usual everyday practice.

Also, if you fight the same opponents (your dojo mates) in practice all the time, it's a blast to fight some new faces ( and new waza) at the taikai.

Just my 2 brazilian cents ( which right now are worthy only half an american cent)

Alex Polli

[munenmuso]

John W,

Yeah it is true, to list everything difficult in kendo will take on and on and on. To begin with the grading thing, you have to start early in life and there is age consideration for grade advancement and to think just to achieve a certain level, you have to consider kendo as the other half of your life when almost other enthusiasts consider only kendo as a hobby or another sport to occupy free spare time like me. And the practrice itself is one of the hardest training on earth. You mention about the National geographic documentary. It's a pity I never had the chance to watch it considering its very rare here inour country tosee kendo clips on tv.But nevertheless, a friend of mine saw it and he said that the challenge there is one of the most gruelling thing a kendoka will face in his life. A lifetime dedication to the art of kendo and only three minutes to show everything you've got.

Wow! And I thought only a bar exam will cause you to puke blood! Will they show it again on NGC.

munenmuso

[saki_wooah]

Yup, it is true that you have to start kendo at an early age or you won't be able to do some of the dan gradings... according to the canadian kendo Federation, in total, you should have at least 35 years of experience, from shodan to hachidan (8th dan). And you have to be at least 14 to pass your shodan... That does 49 years old minimum to be hachidan (if you're a superhuman kendoka and don't fail any of your gradings, which is nearly impossible). There is also the other part of your life => dedicate your life to kendo? I have other things to do in life... Nyway, i'm starting to be messed up with all those numbers and stuff
Just wanna ask one question: When did you start kendo (how old were you)? I started at 13 and will probably continue it at least 3 more years
To go back to our topic, the most hardest thing in kendo is teaching it to beginners who take kendo too seriously (like: they want to become samurai o_O, they practice everyday, they don't listen to you and do their waza like what they think is right, and they act like the i-know-all-about-martial-arts...)!

[munenmuso]

Unless your name is Miyazaki Masahiro, you might have the chance to pull it up to the highest dan!!!!

Saki, I know that beginner stuff who did nothing but to practice kendo from sunrise to sunset, day in, day out. we have that in our dojo as well. sometimes he gives me the creeps but bet you he's a bit admirable because of his dedication to this sport but I'm not so sure about his life after kendo.Does not epitomizes what real kendo spirit stands for. The guy is a total jerk.

BTW, I started kendo when I was 22, a bit late. It's really difficult to do compared to those Japanese kids who practice with grace and conviction.Perhaps practicing at this age adds difficult to it but that is not the hardest part I guess.

[Tato]

Saki, Munenmuso...

I started Kendo with 31, and I'm prety aware that if everything goes well I'll get the higer gradings on a rather old age (on my 70 :( ). But I didn't started kendo just for geting the dan, so it dosen't bother me.

The big advantage of starting late is that we will take the things we do more seriously, experience in life helps.

I'm strongly dislexic, so EVERYTHING in kendo is dificult for me, but the worst is my complete lack of phisical resistance, at the end of keiko, in the jigeiko I'm so exhausted that I can just stand and recive the cuts. Not very good.

And that's one of the appeals of kendo, it's difficult, you won't find here easy shortcuts.

Rei

[John W]

munenmuso,

I am very sure that the National Geographic Channel will screen the "Kendo's Gruelling Challenge- a 120 second test of spirit" documentary again. As far as I know they screen it about 3 times every two months here. If you want I will record it and send a copy it is really good viewing.

Yeah, the pass rate is very low for 8th dan, I am sure you have to be 47+ before you can sit the exam. What I concluded about the program was that if you want to be the holder of an 8th Dan grade you had better put in lot of hard training over your kendo life. Then maybe just maybe you could pass your 8th Dan!:)

[Hyaku]

I have to say Kakari geiko. It NEVER gets easier but the rewards are great.

Hyaku

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/

[munenmuso]

Tato,

You might plan your career in kendo up to 7th dan. Beyond that is a gift from, er, "Kendo Gods". Why not? Take the challenge, kendo might be extremely difficult but it is attainable. Last two years, we were visited by seven Zenkenren delegates. There were three 8dans and four 7dans. What was obvious then was they were all old men from 60's to 80s. The oldest was the one who look as the most serene. Never saw from his face that kendo was indeed difficult. But when they started free practice, man, we were flabberghasted. The whole dojo was in perfect silence. You can only hear the thundering sound of their feet hitting the floor and everything was rampage.It was like the reenacment of the Battle of Sekigahara. It was absolutely amazing!!! Well even at old age, they were invincible. The whole club practiced with them, I was not able to land a shot the whole time, except in kakari geiko,of course. A bit off course though.

BTW, John W, a thousand thanks for that copy. How are you going to send it? Hehehe!!!!!:)

[Matthew Lagden]

Our Sensei attempted (and failed) 7th Dan last December, and after reading his account of it, I scaled my ambitions down somewhat....

If i got to 4th Dan I would be pretty damn pleased with myself.

I find the hardest part is getting the whole package to come together. you can practise the individual elements at home or wherever, but only in Keiko can you practise the whole lot....

and i've never yet done a cut with good footwork zanshin, kiai etc....

Although i struggle with the Kata as well.

[munenmuso]

True, keiko or shiai is a one shot deal. You have to do it precisely, decisively and direct while considering all elements all the time.Otherwise you lose. No rooms for error.What makes it more difficult is you have to do it in split-second decision;"will I block, will I cut, will I go forward, backward, is there zanshin, kihon or maii?" while your opponent's sword is already halfway your men.

[Kendoboy]

Originally posted by Tato
the worst is my complete lack of phisical resistance, at the end of keiko, in the jigeiko I'm so exhausted that I can just stand and recive the cuts. Not very good.
[/B]


Sometimes I find it helpful to just allow my opponent to hit me. If I am finding it difficult o do something, I try to pull that waza from them, so that I can see it and modify my own. This also gives me practice pulling certain waza so that eventually, I will be able to do effective oji waza.

[alexpollijr]

That's a pretty good notion to apply.

Instead of chickening out and blocking - which is extremely counterproductive for both the attacker and the blocker, since no one will learn anything from it in basis - take it like a man but apply the mitori geiko principle, look and learn and develop.

Of course this notion only goes for keiko, and onlyl if you can't execute any oji on the incoming attack.

[Kent Enfield]

Originally posted by saki_wooah
Yup, it is true that you have to start kendo at an early age or you won't be able to do some of the dan gradings... according to the canadian kendo Federation, in total, you should have at least 35 years of experience, from shodan to hachidan (8th dan). And you have to be at least 14 to pass your shodan... That does 49 years old minimum to be hachidan (if you're a superhuman kendoka and don't fail any of your gradings, which is nearly impossible).Atually, according to the IKF website, in the section for shogo and dan-i, the mimimum times in grade for shinkyu shinsa are reduced if the testee is old enough.

Nidan: 3 months after shodan, if over 35
Sandan: 1 year after nidan, if over 40
Yondan: 2 years after sandan, if over 45
Godan: 3 years after yondan, if over 50
Rokudan: 2 years after godan, if over 60
Nanadan: 3 years after rokudan, if over 60
Hachidan: 5 years after nandan, if over 60

From Shogo and Dan-i (http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/rule/syogo_dan.html).

[saki_wooah]

Originally posted by Kent Enfield
Atually, according to the IKF website, in the section for shogo and dan-i, the mimimum times in grade for shinkyu shinsa are reduced if the testee is old enough.
Nidan: 3 months after shodan, if over 35
Sandan: 1 year after nidan, if over 40
Yondan: 2 years after sandan, if over 45
Godan: 3 years after yondan, if over 50
Rokudan: 2 years after godan, if over 60
Nanadan: 3 years after rokudan, if over 60
Hachidan: 5 years after nandan, if over 60
From Shogo and Dan-i (http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/rule/syogo_dan.html).

According to the Canadian Kendo Federation,
Grade / Minimum practice since last grading / Minimum Age
1 kyu / ---- / ----
1 Shodan / 3 months / 14
2 Nidan / 2 years / 16
3 Sandan / 2 years / 18
4 Yondan / 3 years / 21
5 Godan / 4 years / 25
6 Rokudan / 5 years / 30
7 Nanadan / 6 years / 36
8 Hachidan / 10 years / 48

http://kendo-canada.com/ckf_kendo.htm

[munenmuso]

Saki,kent

reading all those figures sure makes kendo far more difficult & hard.:)

BTW, which standard is more appreciable or applicable?

[KhawMengLee]

Hardest part of Kendo...hmmmnn,

Changing out and retying the kote laces in correct form. (think its easy, you have a go)

Heh,

MENG

[munenmuso]

How about........... the longest shiai match you ever suffered.

You just wish it would end as soon as possible and of course in your favor. Have you ever been in a shiai that lasted for more than ten, twenty minutes or more? It must be gruelling enough to make you suffer while your mind is attempting to pull your body to keep it up from too much exhaustion. While your throat is desert dry and the thought of winning the match is second only to "WATER".

And finally, your reputation is at stake!!! Worst, the girl your trying to impress is watching so basically you can't loose.

The hardest part ok kendo yet.:)

[mingshi]

About minimum age and grading...

The one Kent Enfield has is the MINIMUM for OLDER KENDOKA.
The one Saki has is the normal one (minimum).

Are you actually planning to become a high grade (5 Dan+)? Not for me. Everything gets so political as you get further away from the beginners stage... IMHO they'd NEVER let a Gaijin become a Hachidan. You don't train 3 times a day every day. Your 10 years of Kendo experience is totally different from theirs.
--------------------------------------

As for myself, I would not be very interested in grading at all. There are too many good people around who are only of Shodan to Sandan (your definition of a BEGINNER), who failed gradings, who have been practicing for years and years. Recently in a UK grading there's only a 25% pass rate for Nidan people. I don't think those who went for it did't practice regularly and if so their Sensei wouldn't recommand them to be graded. Would they go if they are not ready? Too weird. True, probably something went wrong in the grading system.

I still believe that you can tell how strong an opponent by crossing swords, not "hey he's a 6th Dan he must be good". Grade X= level of Kendo. You can only go for a few gradings in your life, but your level of Kendo goes up every time you go for a practice. You don't need people to give you a number to know how good you are.

My "hardest part of Kendo" is the one that cannot be verbalized. It is totally different from sitting in a history class listening to the teacher, read some books, and then site in an exam room and write everything out. Teaching your body to do Kendo is way harder. How many of use can describe the correct way of Kirikaeshi? All. But how many of use can perform a perfect one? I particularly feel frustrated when one Sensei tells me "do this not that", I go "Hai, hai, hai". Another sensei say the same thing, and another one, and another one. Yes we know that but we can't ask our body to do it straight away. Kakari-keiko is a very good way to show how much you have teach yourself... because it involves less time to think and judge, but more direct action from oneself.

Talked too much again. Time for class.

[Kendoka]

THE HARDEST PART ?? Is fixing incorrect actions or movements that have become habitual.

Pay attention to practice correct technique. When you get to a level where you should know better and you are suddenly made aware of a bad habit - it is SOOO hard to fix.

Richard (50 more please!!)

[munenmuso]

Surprise!!!!Old habits die hard.

[Tato]

New ones too.... :(

[AlexM]

Toughest part is trying to understand instructions from sensei in Japanese when your at the other end of the dojo and you're both wearing a men.

I usually only understand "(insert technique name here) 4 times... Hajime!"

Also, limiting my motions to the bare minimum or excluding all useless movements from my kendo (my kendo is mostly useless movements).

[lewis]

Other than Khawmenglee's insight, it is keeping kendo a part of your life for 50 years. But maybe that is more real than anyone wanted to hear.

[Nishi]

The hardest part for me in kendo is staying completely relaxed, and detached.

[Confound]

It's hard to say what is the hardest part, but I would have to say the top on my list would be putting away the things that have been bothering me. it's quite hard for me to stop thinking about the nasty things that seem to keep happening on a regular basis. i have a rule that I will never pick up a shinai or an iaitou when I am angry. sometimes that means sitting down for a long time before practice...

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Right now for me, it's seme/tame/kihaku (hope I spelt all those right), all the things you need to do to create a point out of pressure. Mainly, being consistent in doing it.

[munenmuso]

Thanks ppl for all your comments. With all those posts, I wonder what could actually be that hardest part which my limited intellectual capacity cannot comprehend? Is it the mental,physical or emotional aspect of kendo that is the most difficult to control or improve?

Jut wondering again..........

munenmuso

[Confound]

Every person brings their own experiences and problems with them when they start kendou. For some people, who have played sports, the physical aspect may not be so difficult, for others whose personalities are particularly suited, the mental aspect may not be so hard.

Returning to the old Yoda and the big bad tree in the Dagobah swamp analogy (yet again), you find only what you bring with you.

c

[ben]

God damn kendo has stolen everything from George Lucas...

Thinking about kendo difficulty: we get judged very quickly and very harshly on what we do. If it doesn't work, we get cut. Not all martial arts are like this. Many are more like self-expression, similar to acting in the theatre but without the audience. I hate competition and yet I realise I am a fiercely competitive person. So there is something I don't quite understand that I'm trying to work out by putting myself through shiai.

One thing I've never understood about iaido and to a lesser extent kenjutsu is how do you know if what you're doing is any good? What is the indicator of success?

This is one thing I find difficult but rewarding about kendo. Success is very hard to achieve, but very obvious when it happens.

b

[Tato]

Confound, I agree whit most of the things you say, and you say them in a very nicely way, just add that some people may find new things out of experience in kendo, different ones from the ones that they think they know. Using your dagobha tree metaphore, you can get things that never where in you at the begining. (By the way, have you ever seen the relation between the tree and the Plato's cavern? :alien: )

I also feel this contradiction thing, it's one of the most dificult things to accept and manage about myself(mmm... geting too serious there). And I don't belive that there's a "Success" in kendo, just another mountain to climb, but there I guess that you're more experienced that I'm.

Answering Munenmuso, for me certainly is the physical, as told I've some trouble coordinating mouvements and learning brain-hand activities (you will never die from dislexia, but at moments you can get very bored of yourself).

Rei

[munenmuso]

Tato

Try Earth,Wind & Fire:"You cannot give what you never had, yeah". :)

munenmuso

[Tato]

hey!! that's funky man!! :D

No, you can't, but thanks to heavens you can get things that other people can't give.

Rei

[Tato]

Mmm, my last post can be easyly misunderstood. :eek:

I mean that you can learn from other people, and trough your relation with those people, not that you can use some ilicit way to get things.

Rei

[kanyil]

How about........... the longest shiai match you ever suffered.

You just wish it would end as soon as possible and of course in your favor. Have you ever been in a shiai that lasted for more than ten, twenty minutes or more? It must be gruelling enough to make you suffer while your mind is attempting to pull your body to keep it up from too much exhaustion.


During a recent local tournament I was forced to go through two back-to-back shiais due to a scheduling problem by the tournament. The I finished the first match with a kote-nuki-men in encho as my left leg was cramping up and I could not do any leaping strikes, and the second match went into encho as well.

Great fun. Almost better than kakarigeiko

[she11back]

Sir,

I have found that "trying to get a complete package" has been the most trying part in my life. While competeing in dancing prior to finding my sensei, the problem was always the same, was "eveything" done right? In ballroom, like in kendo, the competition really begins as soon as you enter the ring or step on the floor. About once a year, I am rewarded with a perfect do or men. I am still waiting for the body to get a perfect kote.

Respectfully,

Glen R. Cook