Why not one hand?

[regularyojimbo]

Well since i can't train because of my knee I've been watching alot of movies and visualizing men nuki do...

In the movies alot of do strikes are made with one hand...now this is harder given the length of of a shinai but why is the shinai so long?

In fact alot of sword play is one handed in the movies yet in kendo we are taught to cut with both hands on the shinai. Given that the length of the shinai is restrictive to fighting one handed why was it made so long in the first place?

Indulge me with your thoughts since I cannot train at present.

[kenshin13]

Well since i can't train because of my knee I've been watching alot of movies and visualizing men nuki do...

In the movies alot of do strikes are made with one hand...now this is harder given the length of of a shinai but why is the shinai so long?

In fact alot of sword play is one handed in the movies yet in kendo we are taught to cut with both hands on the shinai. Given that the length of the shinai is restrictive to fighting one handed why was it made so long in the first place?

Indulge me with your thoughts since I cannot train at present.
Hmmm....that is a tough one. What type of movies have you been watching? Are you talking about something that a person recorded at a takai or what? If it is with big budget movies I wouldn't really rely on them. Also, when your taught to cut with two hands, sometimes more expirienced sempai's try jodan, normally used with one handed striking (or at least what Grobart sensei was doing :D ) . But I don't why a shinai (or katana, shinken etc.) is so long. Hope Neil-san can inform us :D

[mystic_kendoka]

and why is the bokuto shorter than a standard katana?

[Musha]

Maybe Yojimbo is talking about films like robin-hood and the three musketeers :D. In Kendo you cut with one hand because in real life the katana was a slicing weapon if you hit a fresh peace of paper in karate chop style nothing will happen. If you quickly run your hand along it. It might cut you. Same with the katana, it is easier to lift and cut with both hands. It also gives speed and accuracy.

The European swords were made for stabbing because it was best against armour and can be done much quicker. I think the medival swords were also more usted for heavy chopping cuts than slicing.

I think people use one hand now and again because it confuses people and gives you the full reach of your arm that you really need in kendo. Am not sure if it is harder to do the round slicing action with one hand though.

And I thought it was longer mystic?

P.s notice any thing different since last time I posted?? :)..

[kenshin13]

no.......:ko:

[mystic_kendoka]

i dont see any difference in wat u posted before...

btw- wat do u mean 'no longer mystic'?

[kenshin13]

He meant that he thought the bokken was longer than the katana. :)

[Kozushi]

From pictures from the 19th Century before Kendo was formalized, there seem to have been people who used one-handed stabs to the chest a lot.
Remember, the 4ft long Shinai was made for people with a 19th Century stature (i.e. about 5 ft tall); if you are about 6 ft tall, then you would naturally use a longer sword in battle: probably about 5 ft long.
I think the 2 handed style comes from wearing armour: the armour protects you a great deal, so you are able to face the opponent head-on and try to smash through his helmet with powerful 2 handed strokes (check Stephen Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook about this). The relatively short sword-length is to make it less liable to breaking in half. The spear was always the first weapon of attack, and the sword was used when the spear was chopped up or snapped. Italian Fencing was created for unarmoured combat, and I have no doubt that they essentially perfected it. Note, however, that there are many examples of Japanese katana that were very light like Western smallswords, and were clearly to be used in one hand, although the hilt might be long (partially to act as a counterbalance) - these kind of katana would have been pretty bad for war where armour had to be smashed through.

[regularyojimbo]

Movies like...

Azumi
Yojimbo
Sanjuro
Zatoichi

[mystic_kendoka]

is the bokuto longer than the katana? i thought the shinai was longer than the shinken, and the bokuto a bit shorter and much lighter..

[Musha]

I haven't see the other films you mentioned Yojimbo but I don't remember any one using one hand in Azumi...
Most Japanese films seem to use the aido style and you must draw the sword with one hand. Then grasp it with the other and cut some one down...

I've never seen any Japanese film where some one uses one arm. I guess Musashi would but he was famous for it :).

[Mr.Tvola]

Well, shinai lenght used to be different in the past. I think the lenght was standardized around 1910-1912, when Kendo rules were defined, but before, everybody used shinai as long as they liked or their school prefered.
And for example during and before WWII shinai was much shorter in the military and navy officers training in order to simulate a military sword (gunto), which was generally shorter than katana (in order to have the other hand free for pistol, map, binoculars, whatever...).

And so was the lenght of real swords, there was no set standard. Different schools prefered different sword lenght, also different swordsmen liked different swords...

My point is, you cannot say that bokken is shorter than a real sword, because there are no standards for swords, standards are only for modern shinais and bokkens in modern Kendo.

And concerning the isue "why not one hand" - there are many katate (single handed) techniques in modern Kendo. So I would say "Yes, why not :-)"

In the movies you really see a lot of one hand use. I think that is because warriors of the past had to reserve one hand for other purposes, just like the military officers during WWII - like leading a horse or carrying some other weapon... or maybe it just looks more cool :)

[regularyojimbo]

Azumi uses one hand plernty of times when faced with multiple attackers.

One hand slash with the katana provided you have the strenghth would surely be more convenient for body strikes and downward strikes as an opponent goes by you.

Because we do not face multiple attackers in kendo that is perhaps why there is the concentration on achieving the perfect cut?

Please watch Yojimbo and SAnjuro for great swordplay on film...Azumi's was ok but not in the same class as Mifune.

[Kendoka]

My point is, you cannot say that bokken is shorter than a real sword, because there are no standards for swords, standards are only for modern shinais and bokkens in modern Kendo.

And concerning the isue "why not one hand" - there are many katate (single handed) techniques in modern Kendo. So I would say "Yes, why not :-)"


Exactly.

Bokutoh length is specified.

Shinai regulation lengths are maximums, ie. shinais can be any length that suits the user, up to the maximum length.

See http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kendo/shinai.htm

Swords and iaito are often custom made to a length that suits the users physique and or ability, so length can vary widely.

And one handed techniques exist in kendo - katate waza are effective for tsuki and also for a men cut from hidari jodan no kamae and other targets as well.

[FredUM]

Another reason for shinai being longer than bokkuto or katana is of course the long tsuka, to leave room for the kote.

/Fredrik

[indigo0086]

azumi was also able to leap tall buildings and at the young early teen years, able to kill several dozen enemies. I don't think her whiping around a sword with one hand too impossiblel.

[mystic_kendoka]

in jigeiko today, i did katate men, and when that failed blocked with one hand, my opponent looked at me, shocked, and said "you can do that?"

*snigger*

[Akechi]

Kendo has one hand techniques. One for Men Uchi and other; I rarely saw it, for Tsuki. In the movies the one hand cuts are derived from Iaijutsu katas. Sometimes they are incredibly inventive and no swordsman would use such flashy strikes in a real fight unless he wanted to die. Those strikes are to slow for a real fight.



Normally in the battlefield with armor the Samurais used Tachis that are longer than the Katanas; these last where used more commonly after the unification of Japan by Tokugawa Ieyasu. The use of armor declined and the Samurais needed another kind of sword in this case a smaller and lighter one than the traditional Tachi. The Katana was adopted.

Kendo teaches us to use a Shinai as if we were fighting in a battlefield. The Shinai was used to teach fencing without killing the students. It was the best compromise between technique and safety. It was invented in the 18th century and where the reason of many critics by Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu Senseis of that time.


I found 2 sizes for Bokuto; a smaller one for children (less than 90 cm) and a bigger one (1 meter long; for adults). Of course exists a Kodachi and Tanto bokuto. Iaitos and Shinken are made accordingly with the height of the person that uses it. My Iaito is 2,40 syaku (1 syaku=30,3 cm) because I’m 1,70 meter height. Any web page of stores that sell Iaitos has a table that matches user height and blade (Toshin) size.



I hope I could help.

[Future Head]

How many years, on average, do most kendoka train before they start rooftop-jumping?

[mystic_kendoka]

you see people jumping on their first strike

[mero]

I started roofjumping last year. I'm working on my fireballs at the moment. :wink:

How many years, on average, do most kendoka train before they start rooftop-jumping?

[Hisham]

Normally in the battlefield with armor the Samurais used Tachis that are longer than the Katanas; these last where used more commonly after the unification of Japan by Tokugawa Ieyasu. The use of armor declined and the Samurais needed another kind of sword in this case a smaller and lighter one than the traditional Tachi. The Katana was adopted.

I beg to differ as far as the Tachi s combat purpose and the era it was popular in are concerned ,that kind of sword was mainly used by the cavalry ,its length and more pronounced blade curvature made it easy for the rider to slash his enemy may he be a footsoldier or a horseman.The Tachi s popularity started to go down with the beguining of the Sengoku era late Muromachi period and that s of course well before the unification of Japan (which BTW was of Toyotomi Hideoshi s doing not of Tokugawa Ieyasu s) .The fact is the Katana was already the number one used sword in the sengoku era ,anyway here is a website where you can check all of the above out:http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/sugata/shape.htm

Sorry that i went off topic but i had to.

[Chusan]

Why shinai is longer than bokuto (or katana) ?
You might consider the fact that a shinai is straight while the real sword (and the bokuto) usually is curved.
So when executing certain techniques which work well with a curved blade on a straight sword, it must be quite a bit longer to work.

[nalogg]

In fact alot of sword play is one handed in the movies yet in kendo we are taught to cut with both hands on the shinai.
did't you just answer your own question there?

the reason we cut with both hands is because kendo is kendo and movies are movies...

however i've seen the cut made with 2 hands but the left lets go on the follow through. My sensei told me this was okay to do (no pun intended.... Dou)

[devourment77]

didn't musashi stress that you must learn to handle the long sword with your right hand.. although I do remembe he said it takes a good while to learn to do so...

I think it can be done just fine with the right training.. although I am not sure why you would want to.. unless you were using two swords like musashi..

I believe you would have more power using two hands.. although I am not sure wheither one handed or two handed would be faster. It probably depeneds on the situation you are in...

[nalogg]

didn't musashi stress that you must learn to handle the long sword with your right hand.. although I do remembe he said it takes a good while to learn to do so...

I think it can be done just fine with the right training.. although I am not sure why you would want to.. unless you were using two swords like musashi..

I believe you would have more power using two hands.. although I am not sure wheither one handed or two handed would be faster. It probably depeneds on the situation you are in...
no offense or anything, but i got an idea...

let's stop using miyamoto musashi as a basis for all advice on this forum and listen to our sensei.

They would say: if you want to learn nito (which is still technically not totally one-handed) you have to master 2-handed kamae.

That's what tsuruda sensei told my club, and i see where he's coming from.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

[QUOTE=Kozushi]I think the 2 handed style comes from wearing armour: the armour protects you a great deal, so you are able to face the opponent head-on and try to smash through his helmet with powerful 2 handed strokes [QUOTE]

This is talked about in some other threads where most people contend that kendo originated from unarmored dueling forms
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4113&page=2&pp=15&highlight=unarmored

[Hai_hai]

...let's stop using miyamoto musashi as a basis for all advice on this forum and listen to our sensei...
Good idea, as I have never used Musashi as a basis for advice.

[Catherine]

If you are using Musashi for advice, you will need to be careful about how far you take it. As legend has it (or at least the really really long book I read) he was in love with a woman and left her to study swordsmanship. She followed him around Japan for years, sometimes seeing him, sometimes not.

Guys (and girls) that would play havoc with your social life.

Catherine

[Hai_hai]

...As legend has it (or at least the really really long book I read) he was in love with a woman and left her to study swordsmanship. She followed him around Japan for years, sometimes seeing him, sometimes not...
Probably had erectile dysfunction.

[KendokaJim]

No wonder he had such an obsession with the sword. Phallic symbol much?

[shotoblogger]

I think the 2 handed style comes from wearing armour: the armour protects you a great deal, so you are able to face the opponent head-on and try to smash through his helmet with powerful 2 handed strokes (check Stephen Turnbull's Samurai Sourcebook about this).
I don't think so. Early kenjutsu ryu emphasized cutting at weak points in armor, like the joints. If you want to know how effective a sword cut can be against a helmet, check this out:
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html

Keep in mind that this cut was done under almost ideal circumstances and was a record-setting cut, and the helmet is far from being destroyed.

[Future Head]

If you are using Musashi for advice, you will need to be careful about how far you take it. As legend has it (or at least the really really long book I read) he was in love with a woman and left her to study swordsmanship. She followed him around Japan for years, sometimes seeing him, sometimes not.

Guys (and girls) that would play havoc with your social life.

Catherine

Hey, she followed, didn't she? :D

[chaichaikun15]

have you held a real katana? its not the lightest thing in the world... try swinging it around with one hand... youll probably drop it

[mystic_kendoka]

u still could, many people (musashi esp)
used a daito with one hand, and a wakazashi in the other, so it is possible..

[Oyabun]

Movies like...

Azumi
Yojimbo
Sanjuro
Zatoichi
I think the iaido style of drawing with an immediate strike can often be done effectively with one hand, as getting a second hand on the sword takes a valuable fraction of a second. In Kendo, there is no real reason to not use both hands unless you're usuing Nito. In other words, you have an extra hand -- why not use it?

And as for Zatoichi, as I recall, Takeshi Kitano didn't use a full-length daito in that movie. It was a shorter, straighter sword concealed in his cane, which didn't really require two hands anyway.

[swordteacher99]

Musha, easier does not mean better, in sword work, as in life, the harder a thing is usually the better one ;) OOh, I disagreed with another member, I expect a lightening bolt shortly for such a sin, lol. lighten up folks. ;)


Maybe Yojimbo is talking about films like robin-hood and the three musketeers :D. In Kendo you cut with one hand because in real life the katana was a slicing weapon if you hit a fresh peace of paper in karate chop style nothing will happen. If you quickly run your hand along it. It might cut you. Same with the katana, it is easier to lift and cut with both hands. It also gives speed and accuracy.

The European swords were made for stabbing because it was best against armour and can be done much quicker. I think the medival swords were also more usted for heavy chopping cuts than slicing.

I think people use one hand now and again because it confuses people and gives you the full reach of your arm that you really need in kendo. Am not sure if it is harder to do the round slicing action with one hand though.

And I thought it was longer mystic?

P.s notice any thing different since last time I posted?? :)..

[swordteacher99]

As many have said to me, if you dont practice something consistently, and a little training dont mean a thing, then you should not comment on it, I find the talk here by all the kendoists talking about Kenjutsu to be disingenuous seeing as how the reacted to me commenting on Kendo, and I doubt most of you hold much if any standing in Kenjutsu, about as much as I would in Kendo, so please, take your own advice, and stop talking about something you don't practice. Tah tah. ;)


u still could, many people (musashi esp)
used a daito with one hand, and a wakazashi in the other, so it is possible..

[KendokaJim]

Then why do you keep posting here?! You don't practice kendo, iaido, naginata, or jodo. Why keep badgering everyone?

[swordteacher99]

Then why do you keep posting here?! You don't practice kendo, iaido, naginata, or jodo. Why keep badgering everyone?

I practice iaijutsu as well as Kenjutsu, I think I have enough in common with many hear, some of whom have studied a llittle of this, to be here, sorry, but I have as much right to be here as you, so get used to it bucko ;)

[Mokuso]

hmmmm
I don't think there's a wrong or right answer to using one or two hands.
It depends on the actual situation and what type of cut you want to make.

I think its a choice between speed / accuracy / power.
the situations change all the time, it could be one hand cut here, two hand there and then one hand etc etc

example, from what I can remember, In Kendo I see the use of two hands 95% of the time, if it was one hand it would be only for a short time because the shinai can knocked down away easily.
Iaido depends on a lot of things as well but more one hand then kendo becuase your drawing and sheathing often while in kendo you always have your sword out.
this is from what I know so far, im still learning :confused2

[swordteacher99]

hmmmm
I don't think there's a wrong or right answer to using one or two hands.
It depends on the actual situation and what type of cut you want to make.

I think its a choice between speed / accuracy / power.
the situations change all the time, it could be one hand cut here, two hand there and then one hand etc etc

example, from what I can remember, In Kendo I see the use of two hands 95% of the time, if it was one hand it would be only for a short time because the shinai can knocked down away easily.
Iaido depends on a lot of things.
this is from what I know so far, im still learning :confused2

Get yourself some good Chaka, for strengthening the forearms, or make your own, I can tell you how and what to use if you like, then your Shinai won't get hit aside so easily, one hand or two ;) Take care

[Mokuso]

Get yourself some good Chaka, for strengthening the forearms, or make your own, I can tell you how and what to use if you like, then your Shinai won't get hit aside so easily, one hand or two ;) Take care

haha I would only let you tell me if your Sensei :P

[swordteacher99]

haha I would only let you tell me if your Sensei :P

Umm, ok, well you have no manners and are rude, I do not wish to be your Sensai, I offered to tell you how to make some good chaka, easy to do yourself, or you can go buy them, cost you 300 bucks that route, Sorry I had the "nerve" to try and offer my help to you, you do not deserve it with your rude attitude. See, jumping on the band wagon ain't always the best choice. Good day.

[Sinta]

Get yourself some good Chaka, for strengthening the forearms, or make your own, I can tell you how and what to use if you like, then your Shinai won't get hit aside so easily, one hand or two Take care.

What's Chaka? I need to seriously strenghten my forearms, so I'm open to suggestions. Tried to PM you, but your Inbox was full :) How do you make Chaka yourself?

[swordteacher99]

What's Chaka? I need to seriously strenghten my forearms, so I'm open to suggestions. Tried to PM you, but your Inbox was full :) How do you make Chaka yourself?


My in box is empty now if youd like to pm me.

[Saitama Steve]

I practice iaijutsu as well as Kenjutsu, I think I have enough in common with many hear, some of whom have studied a llittle of this, to be here, sorry, but I have as much right to be here as you, so get used to it bucko ;)

Sir, would you mind enlightening us as to what ryuha of kenjutsu & iaijutsu you study?

You have claimed that you are a sword teacher (You also use that as your user handle) what rank are you? Do you hold any dan grades or traditional licences?

Thank you

[Nameless]

u still could, many people (musashi esp)
used a daito with one hand, and a wakazashi in the other, so it is possible..


Nitten Ichi Ryu is designed to be affective against a single opponent and is difficult to master is because you must successfully connect on every strike. If you miss or your opponent parries you cannot recover as quickly. So if you can dispatch your opponent in a single blow, like in Iaido, then by all means use one hand. If you don't believe me, go outside and do 200 one-handed haya-suburi, then tell me if you feel like it might be advantageous to use both hands.:smiley:

[KendokaJim]

I practice iaijutsu as well as Kenjutsu, I think I have enough in common with many hear, some of whom have studied a llittle of this, to be here, sorry, but I have as much right to be here as you, so get used to it bucko ;)

Apparently you don't anymore Douche-san!

Sorry, inappropriate I know. But just too good to pass up.

[Mokuso]

Umm, ok, well you have no manners and are rude, I do not wish to be your Sensai, I offered to tell you how to make some good chaka, easy to do yourself, or you can go buy them, cost you 300 bucks that route, Sorry I had the "nerve" to try and offer my help to you, you do not deserve it with your rude attitude. See, jumping on the band wagon ain't always the best choice. Good day.

ermm You dont have to explain yourself to me, Im joking around. *sigh*

MOkussssSSSoooooOOOOoo and relaaaaaaax buddy :wink:

[rottunpunk]

the one armed swordsman didnt use two hands-hehe

does that mean i can start back at kendo then? if i dont have to use my right arm it wont hurt
:p