diff between korean/jap bogu

[lunaxy]

hi guys!

i just had a look at the ampluskendo website. they had both machine-stitched korean and japanese bogu.

i'm just wondering what the difference is between the two? i can't really tell from the images.

[Hai_hai]

hi guys!

i just had a look at the ampluskendo website. they had both machine-stitched korean and japanese bogu.

i'm just wondering what the difference is between the two? i can't really tell from the images.
They look the same not only in pictures but in real life.
The difference is price and materials.
Have a nice day.

[Pauly]

Sorry to be posting this but I must make the comment in your thread title:

It should read korean/japanese bogu. Some simple folk like myself might take offense.

[Hai_hai]

jap is somewhat of a derogatory term for japanese.

[Preacher]

This is a quote from the Amplus site;

BOGU Korean(POWER) VS JAPANESE (SPEED)

Bogu Discussion - Korean Vs Japanese

Lately there has being a lot of confusion in between the Japanese and Korean bogu that Amplus supplies, therefore we'd like to clear up a few things here.

The term KOREAN and JAPANESE bogu are simply names that we've given to that particular style of bogu, they do not represent where the bogu are made from nor their material used.

The reason why they're named as such are because we sell a lot of the Korean style bogu to Korea and the Japanese style bogu to Japan. All bogu are made using Japanese imported material.

The main differences in between those bogu are that the Japanese style bogu are a lot lighter in weight, they're good for increasing speed and movement. While on the other hand the Korea style bogu are slightly heavier and generates more stability, lasting and protection.

RATING JAPANESE STYLE VS KOREAN STYLE

JAPANESE STYLE (SPEED PLUS):

SPEED: [/url] 10/10

POWER: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 8/10

ENDURANCE: 8/10

ELEGANCE: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 9/10

KOREAN STYLE (POWER PLUS):

SPEED: 7/10

POWER: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 10/10

ENDURANCE: 10/10

ELEGANCE: [url="http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"] (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 10/10

Obviously the above rating are simply the average rating for the two style bogu, individual bogu's rating may vary due to the design, stitching and material used.

To avoid further confusion AMPLUS will change the name for style of bogu to SPEED PLUS and POWER PLUS by 30/5/04

Regards,

Charlie

[litige]

This is a quote from the Amplus site;

BOGU Korean(POWER) VS JAPANESE (SPEED)

Bogu Discussion - Korean Vs Japanese

Lately there has being a lot of confusion in between the Japanese and Korean bogu that Amplus supplies, therefore we'd like to clear up a few things here.

The term KOREAN and JAPANESE bogu are simply names that we've given to that particular style of bogu, they do not represent where the bogu are made from nor their material used.

The reason why they're named as such are because we sell a lot of the Korean style bogu to Korea and the Japanese style bogu to Japan. All bogu are made using Japanese imported material.

The main differences in between those bogu are that the Japanese style bogu are a lot lighter in weight, they're good for increasing speed and movement. While on the other hand the Korea style bogu are slightly heavier and generates more stability, lasting and protection.

RATING JAPANESE STYLE VS KOREAN STYLE

JAPANESE STYLE (SPEED PLUS):

SPEED: [/url] 10/10

POWER: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 8/10

ENDURANCE: 8/10

ELEGANCE: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 9/10

KOREAN STYLE (POWER PLUS):

SPEED: 7/10

POWER: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 10/10

ENDURANCE: 10/10

ELEGANCE: [url="http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"] (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 10/10

Obviously the above rating are simply the average rating for the two style bogu, individual bogu's rating may vary due to the design, stitching and material used.

To avoid further confusion AMPLUS will change the name for style of bogu to SPEED PLUS and POWER PLUS by 30/5/04

Regards,

Charlie


.........BOUAHAHAHAHAHAH, ROUAHAHAHAHAHAHBWAHAHAHAHAHAH...sorry...this is so the biggest crap I ever read in my life.

[streetcleaner]

Nike MegaPower Plus Pro 6.0
thats how bogu will be named if kendo comes to olympic

[inner_cent]

Well well well... the Jackasses who owns Amplus is funniest jokers !. GREAT way of advertising own product, when don't even know what you are talking about !

Think Amplus should really do their home work before write that kind of crap (Well... For other ppl's information. Amplus owns by two person... One who is like only 5th kyu.... and another didn't stick around long enough to get into Bogue and quited !)

Not to mention they sold quite a bit of underweight shinai to people during recent Victorian Champianship. got lots of unhappy people found out after they went home !

O-right.. me betetr stop bitching about things........


This is a quote from the Amplus site;

BOGU Korean(POWER) VS JAPANESE (SPEED)

Bogu Discussion - Korean Vs Japanese

Lately there has being a lot of confusion in between the Japanese and Korean bogu that Amplus supplies, therefore we'd like to clear up a few things here.

The term KOREAN and JAPANESE bogu are simply names that we've given to that particular style of bogu, they do not represent where the bogu are made from nor their material used.

The reason why they're named as such are because we sell a lot of the Korean style bogu to Korea and the Japanese style bogu to Japan. All bogu are made using Japanese imported material.

The main differences in between those bogu are that the Japanese style bogu are a lot lighter in weight, they're good for increasing speed and movement. While on the other hand the Korea style bogu are slightly heavier and generates more stability, lasting and protection.

RATING JAPANESE STYLE VS KOREAN STYLE

JAPANESE STYLE (SPEED PLUS):

SPEED: [/url] 10/10

POWER: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 8/10

ENDURANCE: 8/10

ELEGANCE: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 9/10

KOREAN STYLE (POWER PLUS):

SPEED: 7/10

POWER: (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 10/10

ENDURANCE: 10/10

ELEGANCE: [url="http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif"] (http://www.ampluskendo.com/community/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) 10/10

Obviously the above rating are simply the average rating for the two style bogu, individual bogu's rating may vary due to the design, stitching and material used.

To avoid further confusion AMPLUS will change the name for style of bogu to SPEED PLUS and POWER PLUS by 30/5/04

Regards,

Charlie

[Aoi]

unbelieveable...
I will take that rating as an insult... for both Korean and Japanese kendo bogu craftmen.

Had a look at the website too. No matter how much of a sport kendo has become, bogu and shinais are there to protect your life and your honour... do these people understand that?

Nothing makes sense... is there something wrong with my english? Do Australian kendoka have no knowledge, or do not have a choice but buy these things?
Sorry to be so rude, but I find it just totally unbelieveable... such a pity.

[ruoxin]

Aoi, in defence of Amplus kendo, maybe it's their choice of English -- not yours -- that's at fault here...

I've spoken with ppl from Amplus (2 of them are in our club -- we training under Ben-Sensei on this forum) and I never got the Korean=Power, Japanese=Speed descriptions. I think those ratings are a bit showy/tekken-like but not intended to insult the craftsmen involved.

Lunaxy, I asked Amplus the same question:


i'm just wondering what the difference is between the two? i can't really tell from the images.In spoken English what they said was along the lines of :
The 'Japanese' Bogu is like what you'd expect to buy from a Japanese bogu shop. I also got the impression that they have several suppliers for bogu so the different qualities will obviously dictate the prices you see.

'Korean' Bogu on the other hand, is heavier (what they mean by less speed), but offers more protection (what they mean by power).

As Hai-hai's reply suggests, a picture doesn't really tell you the most important things about the bogu -- make, quality, materials. That catalogue is not as comprehensive as it could be but I know they've contracted a new web site. If you are interested you should really contact them by email/phone coz Mike from Amplus prides himself in good customer service and flexibility in customising your bogu (embroidery, upgrades, etc)

gluck
roxy

[Andoru]

I haven't seen or used Amplus bogu so I cannot comment. However, I do agree with Ruoxin that it's the choice of words that is perhaps to blame for this misunderstanding. For example, I haven't seen korean bogu that's intended for shiai, but I have seen Japanese boguya selling "light" bogu intended for shiai. One such example is the Tada Jisen (http://www.eguchi.net/cart_EL5_Jisen.htm) set from Eguchi. It's not correct to classify "Japanese" bogu as being light weight etc, but I can appreciate where the misunderstanding comes from.

[Preacher]

Most of you guys are a bunch of panzies. I can't believe what your going on about. I said that the quality of the bogu i received was very good. Excelent stitching, great thickness/protection, tough but not too heavy. The Kote are really good for the price.
All round, very happy.

[Aoi]

Panzies... I see that word now and then on the web, but I still don't understand why people use it. Either way, I understand it's a form of insult and I will not accept any words like that from someone who sticks their shinai with glue. I remember you from other posts, but I believe you don't seem to have much idea about equipment. However, as long as you are happy with what you paid for, and what you received, there is nothing wrong with that, and you have every right to say so... without being rude.

Ruoxin & Andoru, I am happy to know that it wasn't my understanding that is wrong... But I still do not agree with the information (or the photos) given at that website. I believe it gives a good show of what they know, and I am not going to bother with any international calls to upset myself.

[lunaxy]

firstly, i apologise for the use of 'jap' in the title.
i wasn't aware that it was a derogatory term. i have japanese
friends and they don't seem to mind when i use that term.
i'll be more self concious in the future.

the replies so far have been quite informative, although the SPEED PLUS & POWER PLUS are kinda dodgy names :)

i'll be starting on armour this coming saturday. and will be getting it from my dojang (i practise kumdo). my sensei is supplying it for $800, and apart from that...I don't know much

[ruoxin]

hey lunaxy,

mind me asking where u practice? i don't know any dojangs around my area (melbourne) and a visitor was interested a while back.

anyways, plz tell us what you got for $800. Kinda curious coz, after comparing the koei and amplus bogu in my club (numerous koei and 5 amplus) I decided to go ahead and order an Amplus set for 850AUD. I'll post about mine when it arrives. Will ask for senpai/sensei opinions too.

ja
r

[louisvandalen]

After all these posts I still don't have a clue what the difference between Korean and Japanese bogu's actually is. If I'm a Korean bogu maker and buy all my necessities in Japan and assemble them in Korea to get a lower end-price how does that influence the quality? And what do I have then, a Japanese or Korean bogu? How about I import the high quality (heavy) bogu parts into Belgium and have a nigerian craftsman to assemble the parts. How would you call that? A Belgerian bogu from Japanese materials in Korean style?

I think there is no real differnence (hence the same materials are used) guess it's more of a price thing. You can't sell two exactly the same bogus for a different price. Call one Japanese, call one Korean and you can. Welcome to the wonderfull world of marketing.

The quality is normally mentioned in the advertisement (stiching bu/mm and the materials used (e.g. Kote; seikon 8000 fabric with smoked snakeskin palms and matching boots).

To be honest:
look trough the forums and read what people have bought and where they bought it. Their personal opinion and happyness/sadness with the goods received tells most of the story. Don't worry about where your bogu came from (though I wouldn't go for the Belgerian one).

Best regards,

Louis

[Hai_hai]

After all these posts I still don't have a clue what the difference between Korean and Japanese bogu's actually is. If I'm a Korean bogu maker and buy all my necessities in Japan and assemble them in Korea to get a lower end-price how does that influence the quality? And what do I have then, a Japanese or Korean bogu? How about I import the high quality (heavy) bogu parts into Belgium and have a nigerian craftsman to assemble the parts. How would you call that? A Belgerian bogu from Japanese materials in Korean style?

I think there is no real differnence (hence the same materials are used) guess it's more of a price thing. You can't sell two exactly the same bogus for a different price. Call one Japanese, call one Korean and you can. Welcome to the wonderfull world of marketing.

The quality is normally mentioned in the advertisement (stiching bu/mm and the materials used (e.g. Kote; seikon 8000 fabric with smoked snakeskin palms and matching boots).

To be honest:
look trough the forums and read what people have bought and where they bought it. Their personal opinion and happyness/sadness with the goods received tells most of the story. Don't worry about where your bogu came from (though I wouldn't go for the Belgerian one).

Best regards,

Louis
Blah blah blah.
There's something called craftsmanship.
The bamboo do seems to be last of the parts that isn't made outside of Japan. Plus, urushi lacquer can only be applied in Japan. Why? There are many lacquers in Southeast Asia but Japanese lacquer is a unique. Plus, the lacquer cannot be stored and transported over a long period of time once drawn from its source. Bamboo do with urushi finish is, of course, an RBSO option in good taste.

[louisvandalen]

Blah blah blah. There's something called craftsmanship.So the Koreans make crappy bogu and have little craftmanship? Man you should see my RBSO bogu from korea. You'll be surprised about the craftsmanship and quality of materials, actually you wouldn't be able to see/feel where it's from at all.


The bamboo do seems to be last of the parts that isn't made outside of Japan.Ok, so you basically agree there? Little or few parts come from Japan, thus not rectifying the rather large price difference (unless you include shipping the stuff from korea to japan and so on). Or even better, not rectifying the label "Japanese bogu". Should be "assembled/made in Japan".


Plus, urushi lacquer can only be applied in Japan. Why? There are many lacquers in Southeast Asia but Japanese lacquer is a unique. Plus, the lacquer cannot be stored and transported over a long period of time once drawn from its source. Bamboo do with urushi finish is, of course, an RBSO option in good taste.Actually urushi comes from china (not obvious since urushi means japan, hence the capital U), found some 4000 years ago and was made out of the juice of the Rhus Vernicifera tree (and now you know where the word varnish comes from also). The Japanese just refined the technique of applying it over (sometimes) several hundred layers (making it very labour intensive and thus expensive). They also added a technique where they would use gold grains in combination with urushi, very famous artworks) Never the less, Japan has sent many students over to china to learn the trade. Nowadays the actual tree can be found all over the world, even in the southern parts of England (slightly milder climates). We have few courses in the Netherlands that show you how to apply the lacquer and even some that teach you how to make the actual stuff. Cool to know when you have to make your own saya.

So in the end your not stating much except:

1. blahblahblah
2. Korean craftmanship is not as good as the Japanese (stitching/assembly is rocketscience?). Load of crap, I'm sure that some korean bogus are of the same quality (if not better) as the ones assembled in Japan. Craftsmanship is an individual skill and is not related to origin or nationality (actually making these differences is called fascism where I come from).
3. Japanese bamboo outperforms korean bamboo and thus should be labeled differently (extra high quality bamboo or something). From a marketing prospective, if this was the case I would mention this to possible clients at every occasion (our do uses the best bamboo in the world, ofcourse from Japan). To bad it's bull. The Koreans also select the best bamboo branches for their do parts. Hell they might even import some from Japan and still beat them price wise.
4. You really like urushi lacquer but really don't have a clue what your waffling about.

Best Regards,

Louis

p.s. still love you haihai :)

[ben]

WHile you two are engaged in your schoolyard tussle, may I insert a question? I was actually going to start a thread asking if anyone knew anything about do lacquer and hey ho I stumble on a thread where two guys are trying to out-do each other in their knowledge. I was going to ask if the black do lacquer is the same stuff as the different types of red lacquer -- Kamakura-bori, Negoro-nuri, etc. It seems it is. They are all from the sumac tree - Rhus Verniciflua, yes? Now would either of you know anything about the best way to care for it? Aside, that is, from never allowing anyone to cut your do...

b

[ben]

To add my two bob's worth...

95% (meaning almost all but not quite) hand stitched bogu futon (panels) are stitched outside Japan, mostly in China. The finished futon are then either assembled in China, or Korea or Japan. Japanese bogu manufacturers have been doing this for a lot longer than they have been willing to let on. Most are now willing to admit they outsource. Some unscrupulous Japanese bogu companies (the ones with the lowest prices usually) say that their bogu is still assembled in Japan when it is not. Buying over the internet requires insane levels of trust. Caveat emptor.

The biggest difference between Korean and Japanese bogu is cosmetic. Korean bogu usually has the choice of more colourful shokko (embroidery patterns) on the domune, more lines on the tare, more kera (chambers) on the kote head, and of course all those lolly shop do colours. Sme of these differences are just marketing, i.e. people seem to think the number of kera your kote has, or the number of lines on your tare or domune is an indicator of quality. Also for some reason (probably cost) a lot of Korean bogu I have seen, even the quite high quality stuff, has black, not indigo dyed (deerskin?) suede on various parts. It is especially noticeable when it fades grey, rather than pale blue. Having said all that, if I was buying my first bogu now, I would probably order Korean.

At the upper end of the spectrum the difference between a $3000 bogu and a $10,000 one is impossible for the untrained eye to see (unless $3000 of that is sharkskin). I've been told the main difference is the number of years experience of the craftsman who made the bogu.

b

[louisvandalen]

WHile you two are engaged in your schoolyard tussle, may I insert a question? I was actually going to start a thread asking if anyone knew anything about do lacquer and hey ho I stumble on a thread where two guys are trying to out-do each other in their knowledge. I was going to ask if the black do lacquer is the same stuff as the different types of red lacquer -- Kamakura-bori, Negoro-nuri, etc. It seems it is. They are all from the sumac tree - Rhus Verniciflua, yes? Now would either of you know anything about the best way to care for it? Aside, that is, from never allowing anyone to cut your do...
If you hang arround here for a while: most users have these kinds of conversations with haihai. It's pretty amusing and some newbee's like you can learn something :).

Originally the red laquer comes from India, Thailand and Birma. Dates back to about a 1000 years before christ and is basically bugshit. In that time the insectcrap was removed from trees/rocks and applied to another material in little pieces. It was used like this up until the 16th century. After that time they improved the process and turned the small pieces into a liquid lacquer.

As i've mentioned the lacquer is applied with many layers making it a pretty solid material. Basically it doesn't need any other maintenance as cleaning it with a soft cloth occasionally. It can do with a little polish sometimes but be very carefull doing this, you could use toothpaste for this (or some commercial polish that doesn't eat away paint), keep the toothpaste well away from the leather parts btw. A good deep scratch from a carbon shinai screws up the lacquer and the bamboo, not much you can do about this.

Best Regards,

Louis

[Hai_hai]

So the Koreans make crappy bogu and have little craftmanship?
Sometimes.


Man you should see my RBSO bogu from korea. You'll be surprised about the craftsmanship and quality of materials, actually you wouldn't be able to see/feel where it's from at all.
Didn't you say you took it apart because you wanted to use non-animal parts? Tree-hugging hippie.


Ok, so you basically agree there? Little or few parts come from Japan, thus not rectifying the rather large price difference (unless you include shipping the stuff from korea to japan and so on). Or even better, not rectifying the label "Japanese bogu". Should be "assembled/made in Japan".
Depends. Some bogu makers make the entire set in their business, making it "made in Japan".


Actually urushi comes from china (not obvious since urushi means japan, hence the capital U), found some 4000 years ago and was made out of the juice of the Rhus Vernicifera tree (and now you know where the word varnish comes from also).
Urushi can be drawn from any Rhus Vernicifera in Southeast Asia. China is the largest producer, not the only one.


The Japanese just refined the technique of applying it over (sometimes) several hundred layers (making it very labour intensive and thus expensive). They also added a technique where they would use gold grains in combination with urushi, very famous artworks)
Tell me something I don't know.


Never the less, Japan has sent many students over to china to learn the trade.
Whoop-dee-doo.


Nowadays the actual tree can be found all over the world, even in the southern parts of England (slightly milder climates). We have few courses in the Netherlands that show you how to apply the lacquer and even some that teach you how to make the actual stuff. Cool to know when you have to make your own saya.
With low quality lacquer.


4. You really like urushi lacquer but really don't have a clue what your waffling about.
Waffling? It's more like you don't know what you're waffling about. Ask anyone with Korean bogu with the lacquer on their men has chipped like a paint job on a 1987 Dodge mini-van in less than 6 months. Quality? I don't think so. I think they use butter in their lacquer.
Korean kote palm leather than wears out like its made of butter.
Titanium mengane made of... butter.

[Hai_hai]

... I was going to ask if the black do lacquer is the same stuff as the different types of red lacquer -- Kamakura-bori, Negoro-nuri, etc. It seems it is. They are all from the sumac tree - Rhus Verniciflua, yes? Now would either of you know anything about the best way to care for it? Aside, that is, from never allowing anyone to cut your do...

b
Colors of lacquer is determined by what you mix in the raw sap drawn from the tree.

[louisvandalen]

Didn't you say you took it apart because you wanted to use non-animal parts? Tree-hugging hippie.
Hahaha, that one really cracked me up. I had people looking at me very surprised just now (at the office) because I almost pissed my pants laughing. Tree hugging hippie, new one for me.


Waffling? It's more like you don't know what you're waffling about. Ask anyone with Korean bogu with the lacquer on their men has chipped like a paint job on a 1987 Dodge mini-van in less than 6 months. Quality? I don't think so. I think they use butter in their lacquer.
Korean kote palm leather than wears out like its made of butter.
Titanium mengane made of... butter.
It all depends on what they pay. Origin is of little or no importance. And I think that's what this thread was about. The difference between Japanese and Korean Bogu not the difference between a 300$ and a 3000$ set.

Best Regards,

Louis

P.S. Hope that butter comes from plants opposite to animals, can you confirm this? (since my bogu is korean and I don't wanna end up with bad karma).

P.P.S. Imagine yourself a bogu without leather parts :)

P.P.P.S. I guess you don't love me anymore :)