Shiai- why do we do it??

[John W]

Ok here is an extract from a training experience I have had- it happened in March this year when a visiting teacher told me that when you cut kote you are in theory cutting through the armour, cutting the skin, breaking the wrist bone, cutting through the flesh and out the other side. The result- the opponent does not have a left or right hand anymore! (and some of the wrist is gone too!).

He then went on to tell me that some shiai "specialists" who are quick as lightning and full of energy can cut his kote very quickly but he would probably die from blood loss about five years after receiving the cut. Where if he had cut that person that wrist and hand are off (had they used real swords) but he said this should be in your mind when cutting a specifed target with a shinai.

So this begs the question- how come a very light tap on a kote, men or do etc.. in shiai is awarded a point? Are we not trying to sevre limbs, puncture armour, cut through men and into heads? If all the elements are there for the point that is, kiai, fumikomi, zanshin but the cut lacks energy how come it still gets a point?:confused:

[KhawMengLee]

Heh, one of my japanese Senseis said a similar thing. When I train with him he says don't be afraid to sacrifice your kote, just hit men. He told me to go straight for the men cut even if the kote is hit.

"He may cripple your hand but you will kill/finish him off," he said.

He was demonstrating 2 things:

1) He who walks away alive is the winner.

2) The kote cut may not score(because your upstroke may deflect or block it) but a hit to the men will.

PEACE
MENG

[ben]

JW: The short answer to your last question would be "Bad shimpaning." But your post raises a lot of good questions.

Of course if a judging decision doesn't go our way, we should be big enough to not let it worry us too much. That is the first thing.

Secondly I believe the true measure of a cut's success is not whether you technically would have severed an appendage but whether, as the Japanese say, you cut through your opponent's heart. IOW did the power and timing of your attack stop your opponent dead in their tracks?

Another thing: your visiting teacher's assertion that you're aiming to cut through armour is debatable as well. Many kenjutsu schools avoid cuts to the armoured parts of the body in favour of the unprotected areas: the underneath of the wrist, the insides of the ankle and thigh, etc. These schools see kendo as therefore ineffectual in a martial sense.

The metaphorical nature of kendo is a subtle thing that I think takes a lifetime to understand. To always refer back to the technical act of cutting as if it was some kind of vivisection is almost as misguided as simply seeking to "hit".

b

[munenmuso]

Essentially, if we really want kendo to proceed as a martial way and make it effective in maiming or injuring our opponent we should not be using a shinai. this seperates kendo from its past, hence we have modern kendo. otherwise, no kote during shiai to mesmerize the effect of its deadly origins.

[Will]

If you hit hard it hurts, that might be why they'll accept lighter touches.

[ben]

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply muscular power. The feeling of receiving a proper cut is not, "Shit! That HURT!", but more "Wow! S/he really got me. Ain't no reply to that." Mental rather than physical devastation.

Ideally.

b

[saki_wooah]

hmmmm
For the "why does light cut is good for ippon?" question:
1- Kendo was modernized through the centuries so now the waza are a bit different and the ippon idea is different
2- We are not doing kendo to die in a shiai
3- We are not real samurai, but only people that like kendo as a sport or martial art
4- We're not using real swords and we have bogu to protect ourselves; otherwise we wouldn't have any potection and katana.
5- To cut a real hand with a real sword (i mean litteraly cut it so it falls on the ground), you would have to do a very strong kote to cut the bones and all the stuff >_<; so if you do that in shiai, your opponent will scream with pain to death and this will freak you out unless you're a killer... o_O (i may be a "little bit" exagerating there). The goal is not to use force (if you do that in taikai, they usually ban you from it).

This is pretty much it...

[nodachi]

Isn't Kendo about speed as well. Not just about force. In other martial arts as well. In other martial arts if you are going to be effective in an actual combat, you need to be relaxed so that you can strike faster. How many times have you been told to relax in Kendo practice? Previous sensei of mine who study various martial arts have told me that if you are focused on hitting strong, you will tense up and move slower. They tended to think that hitting faster results in more power. Wouldn't the same apply to a sword? If you want to chop off their kote, and if you were using a real katana, just swing it fast enough and I am sure you would still really mess someone up. Speed is better than power, whether its real combat or your practicing in bogu with a shinai.

Please feel free to contradict me, I am learning a lot from everyone's different thoughts and backgrounds on this forum.

[John W]

Originally posted by ben


as the Japanese say, you cut through your opponent's heart.
b

I think you have very good point there ben. I have been cut a lot of times but some cuts do stand out more than others. I think the statement above would be an accurate descripton of the feeling inside when this happens. You feel hollow, empty- like your spirit has just been extinguished. But in shiai I have never felt that way. I just mutter under my breath "bugger!". Oh well competition blues I suppose!

[AlexM]

I don't think that hits that are too light should be awarded as points. But then hacking at your opponent is not really necessary either. A real katana does not require too much force to severe limbs (of course after a day on the battle field and against someone wearing armor you might have to hit two or three times before killing someone...I think).

I have found, in my very limited experience of tournament kendo, that light taps on kote (as in debana kote) will be accepted as points far too readily by the shinpan. I'm relatively lucky, all (except one...maybe) of the kote I've lost on have been proper hits. So I have nothing much to complain about.

I'm rambling so I'll shut up now.

But I think this has more to do with fighting in Mudansha division (where if it "looks" like a hit the shimpan will sometimes give it) than anything else.

When you see and hear the hits in Yudansha divisions you realise just how much strength is put into proper hits. The sound generated by people in 3rd and 4th dan divisions is astounding. The shimpan don't typically give the point for just anything. I'm sure those of you who have actually fought in these divisions can attest to that.

I like what ben said: defeating the opponent isn't just a question of strength it's a matter of whether or not the opponent believes he is dead (I hope I'm interpreting that properly). Sometimes in kendo you just know you got the other guy and vice-versa.

[hamish]

Any conversation about kendo, in my experience, that starts, "if you were using a real sword..." is generally counter-productive, when are you going to be using a real sword to cut someone's hand off? Kendo has and should progress beyond that level.

Concerns about that kind of thing are really only touching the surface of kendo, and as mentioned above, there are other important points, such as the timing of the attack, the atmosphere of the shiai, seme before and so on.

I was once told by a 9th dan that on a power scale of 10, kote should be 3, men 7, and do 10.

He said that if it were a real sword, you could cut through the wrist with almost no power at all. (as he was a WWII veteran, I wasn't about to pursue that line of conversation any more)

Hamish

[Kendoboy]

Kendo today is a SPORT!! we might be carying on old samurai traditions, but I would bet that if any one of us were on a real battlefield, we would puke from the sight and smell of so much blood and gore, shit our pants, then pass out.

That said, I think that cuts could use a bit more feeling and commitment in shiai, not neccessarily more power.

[Confound]

I'd have to agree with Hamish on this one. It isn't necessary to leave huge, purple bruises and fractured wrists in your wake in shiai, or practice. The kote should be a weaker shot, I say this because an inept student almost broke my knuckle a few weeks ago. (stupid moron. it's been two weeks now and it's still sore.)

At any rate, I am also opposed to the 'hit your opponent so hard that they're knocked out cold' school of thought. A balance is needed between speed, accuracy and strength. I will accept a really hard hit from a sensei with no complaints, however from a kohai, I'm not so ready to take it. Speed and accuracy come first, then strength. When a sensei hits like that, he has everything under control. I don't need to worry about what a sensei is ding wrong, because he isn't doing anything wrong. A kohai on the other hand, is usually sloppy, or at least my kohais are.

at any rate, i don't worry about the strength of my strikes. right now i'm far more concerned with speed and cleanliess.

c

[AlexM]

I should point out that I'm not a fan of "battlefield" kendo ("That ippon was good, but would you have cut him in half?"). I'm just saying that sometimes ippon are given despite the fact that the opponent manages to simply touch the kote (or men, but mostly kote) with the equivalent force of an infant whiping you with a piece of over-cooked asparagus. It's probably just a Mudansha thing though (Shimpan thinking: "let's get this over with", "I'm hungry", "did I lock my keys in the van again?", etc.).

[hamish]

There's so much to take into consideration when refereeing, and the level of the participants is one major decider on what level of technique is acceptable for a valid point.

Check out the continuing series on refereeing by Fukumoto sensei in the magazine. In issue 3 he talks about the teaching role of the referee, and how the kinds of points you give can affect the kind of kendo the participants will do.

Is it better to reward the participants for hard strikes, or for strikes with the right timing and so on? It depends on the situation and the levels of those involved.

Sometimes, though, you come to the realisation that the competitors can't do any better than that, and waiting for a better technique is going to be fruitless!

Hamish

[Confound]

That last bit really resonates, Hamish. I suspect that's how the poor shimpans feel when I had my shiai last weekend. I felt bad for them, honestly.

c

[rfoxmich]

He then went on to tell me that some shiai "specialists" who are quick as lightning and full of energy can cut his kote very quickly but he would probably die from blood loss about five years after receiving the cut. Where if he had cut that person that wrist and hand are off (had they used real swords) but he said this should be in your mind when cutting a specifed target with a shinai.

So this begs the question- how come a very light tap on a kote, men or do etc.. in shiai is awarded a point? Are we not trying to sevre limbs, puncture armour, cut through men and into heads? If all the elements are there for the point that is, kiai, fumikomi, zanshin but the cut lacks energy how come it still gets a point?:confused:

- First the elements of ippon as I understand them are not as you stated,
but are yuko-datotsu, ki-ken-tai-no-ichi, zanshin.
yuko-datotsu - encompasses striking a valid target with the correct
cutting part of the shinai with good hasuji and proper
ma-ai.
ki-ken-tai-no-ichi - Hopefully I don't need to explain this.
zanshin - in rules for kendo competition zanshin has to do with
maintaining control over the actions of your aite before,
during and following the yuko-datotsu.

The last is the key to what kendo is all about and the sort of kendo shinpan should be rewarding (compared with the speed kills type of kendo).

The question we should be examining is what is it that makes a cut happen, and possible and what are we doing in kendo in the first place (by now you hopefully guess that I disagree that kendo is a sport, and I also agree with the idea that it has very little to do with valid sword technique, but instead personal development [see the purpose of kendo if you need to get recalibrated on that]).

Ok should we just be opportunistically thwacking at our opponent and figure we're a great kenshi when we accidently 'tag him'? I think there's much more to it than that. Call it hitting, call it cutting, I'm not sure I really care.. the important stuff is what leads up to it ... watch 'old' kendo footage if you can get your hands on it... in any event I like the word strike because it's nice an neutral on the issue of hit vs. cut.

Before you can strike you need to have a clear opportunity. This can come by chance as a result of an error on your opponent's part, but that's not very satisfying.. might as well play dice... whoever rolls high wins the match... you just got lucky.

Before you have a clear opportunity you must produce a technique that will give you this opening. This technique can be successful because your opponent wasn't ready, or didn't know what to do.. or you're faster. That's not very satisfying as none of them strike me as 'high levels of personal attainment' to shoot to improve.. especially speed. If you're young and fast, fine, but you'll start loosing both your youth and your speed with time. So you need to find something more if you're going to grow up to do kendo like those 80 yr old guys that are still untouchable.

Before you can produce a technique that gives an opening, you must create a weakness that this technique can work on. Now we're getting somewhere. To produce this weakness you have to have evaluated both you and your aite. You have to have 'conversed' with him or her to undestand their reactions, and their comfort zone, to know their kendo likes and dislikes.
Not something they're happy to give up as that would allow you to produce a weakness..hmmm there's more still.

and on and on it goes as you work backwards in various layers of seme and battling with ki...

Working forward again. In the ideal case, you were able to land that strike because your aite could not do anything about it. Given that you could kill them and they could not do anything about it, you don't need to kill them any more. You can be compassionate and just touch them. It's enough. It demonstrates to the shinpan that you did win with proper kendo.

RF

[Neil Gendzwill]

[snip excellent discussion]You can be compassionate and just touch them. It's enough. It demonstrates to the shinpan that you did win with proper kendo.
First off, hi Ron, nice to see you here on KW. For those just tuning in, Fox-sensei is a longtime denizen of the iaido-l mailing list.

Second, I was right with you up until that last point. Most of the people hitting light have none of the lead-up that you discussed - they just beat you on speed, and they were light because if they were any heavier it would slow them down. Requiring a stronger weight for the strike to a certain extent limits that sort of point. For the skilled person, the point may be struck lightly, strongly or in-between - it matters not for the point was, as you say, decided before the shinai made contact. For those winning on youthful reflexes, requiring a strong strike requires a significant change in their approach.

[Will]

old people hit too hard though, thinking that they have to make the cut...

all that's needed is the popping sound, and i'm talking about the air popping, not the person's bone...