sidestep while cutting men

[Matthew Lagden]

In keiko the other night we were doing an exercise where starting from chodan kamae both kendoka stepped in, cut men simultaneously and went through.

I found myself stepping out to the right very slightly to avoid the opponents cut and then rotating slightly to do my men cut before going through

it wasn't a deliberate thing, (and noone suggested i do that, or taught it or anything) it just seemed to be happening.

it worked in the sense that i was cutting men without being cut, but it did have the effect of leaving me with a huge bruise on my left shoulder where my opponents shinai had missed my men.

My question is:

Is what i was doing (the sidestep, rotate, hit routine) 'wrong' so that my bruised shoulder is my fault for doing bad kendo, or is it a perfectly acceptable maneuver, and the shoulder thing is just an unfortunate side effect?

thanks

[kendokamax]

ya
going a little bit on the side during aiuchi men is a very nice technique. as long as you go foward at the same time and that your body isnt bend on the side (like I use to do quite often when I try to do the miyazaki men :P)

When I find myself having two or more possible way to do an exercice and we do it 4 times (example) I do one way 2 times and the other way 2 times. Other people dont need to be aware of that, I just do it for myself.

[Confound]

Contrary to popular belief, that side step while doing aiuchi men is wrong. In fact, it defeats the purpose of the waza. The point of the waza is to strike and run through your opponent. You're supposed to force your opponent to move.

Admittedly, aiuchi men is not an easy waza, but I'm surprised that someone let you get away with that. When I tried it the first time, I was given a stern dressing down. However, I had an excuse, the waza was explained in old man Japanese, which was incomprehensible to me at the time.

c

[kendokamax]

geez you really dont get it do you?

kendo is not from a text book

[Ares2907]

One has two ears and one mouth. Perhaps that means that one should listen twice as much as one speaks. In any case, one really should think before one speaks/types.
the 'side-stepping' thing is not ai-uchi men it is something entirely different. Doing ai-uchi men requires you to control the centre. As I understand it, this is the entire point of the exercise. If you do not control the center, you cannot hit men.
In this case, I do not believe it is Confound who is not getting it.

[kendokamax]

ah ok i was using the wrong word then
what is it call when you do that then?

[alexpollijr]

I don't know for sure.

Might be yokomen if you hit it from a slight angle. Otherwise might be a form of nukimen since you're actually dodging the strike.

[AlexM]

Getting back to Mr. Lagden's question,

Go straight for the cut, don't avoid the opponent's men-uchi (that isn't the point of the excercise, you're not trying for ippon) and once you hit probably best to deviate a bit to the right or you'll just bump into each other. The whole point is that both fighters hit at the same time (well not the whole point rather the ideal desired outcome). Tough to get though. Eventually with lots of practice the opponents look like mirror images of themselves going for men at the same time (I only manage this once every blue moon and it has to be with the right person). Good piece of advice is not to good too far forward on the strike because your opponent is coming at you at the same time (took me a while to realise this).

However, whomever you were doing it with probably shouldn't have been coming down so hard on you're shoulder (ouch!). When I screw up on aiuchi it's usually a question of bad distance.

[kendokamax]

it is more like nuki men since it is not a cut on the side of the men, only a small right step, your body still go straight and go foward on the cut. I personaly dont use that technique but will try to do it since it's an other men uchi technique (I love men uchi).

As for getting aiuchi, when I do it in kihon (is that a kihon?) I usualy just try go for men the fastest possible. How is it possible to adjust to each of your oponents speed?

he hit you on the shoulder ? ouch ! conan men!

[Matthew Lagden]

Thank you all for responding but two things i would like to clarify here -

with Sensei and one of two senpai away the poor ole remaining senpai was trying to run a class of 30+ people including half a dozen absolute beginners on his own, so he can't be blamed for not picking up on my poor technique - in fact i think he did a pretty damn good job under the circs, and i certainly felt like i was learning and being stretched and so on.

also, my opponents can't be blamed for hurting my shoulder - they were coming straight in and holding the centre - if their strikes had hit men it would not have hurt at all - it is really my fault that they were hitting the crappy 'wings' on my borrowed Men, and thus leaving bruises.

I now understand better the point of the exercise as well, but i would like to clarify my question (and if possible could we avoid the descent into terminological disputes, as i struggle to follow the arguments then).

I understand now that there is no value to my subverting the intent of the exercise (unconsciously or not) by avoiding the men uchi in keiko, but would it be considered bad form, or an acceptable tactic if i did it in Shia?

[Confound]

Matthew, your question about dodging a men strike in shiai actually touches on the hotly debated 'slippery eel head' shiai kendou debate. Some people say it's ok to evade, others say you should honourably accept whacks on the head if you can't do an oji-waza or deflect the blow otherwise.

Personally, I am of the opinion that dodging has it's place, but only if you immediately return with an attack. One of the students I practice with has a nasty habit of jerking his head to the side everytime someone strikes men. When we first started practicing together, he didn't do anything other than evade. Now he'll hit you resoundingly. If at first you can do nothing but dodge, fine, but keep trying to come back with an attack.

I don't like people who act like eels in shiai. If you can't do something other than run away, leave the shiai already. I could imagine someone doing something like than when the stakes are high, in an important tournament, but in everyday shiai, i don't appreciate it too much.

as usual, my comments are no one else's opinions but my own, and i can think of at least two or three people who will disagree with me; but that's why we're here, isn't it? might be boring if we all thought the same thing after all.

c

[kendokamax]

I agree with confound on this !

I think in kendo as long as you have a will to attack at every possible time it should be ok.

Normaly the wings would have protected you good enough, but cant really judge.

[Matthew Lagden]

I'm quite surprised but i think i find myself agreeing with you.

to me part of the essence of kendo is that one should be committed to the attack - this is why attacking moves are taught in preference to defensive moves. (there is probably a term for this, but i don't know it).

i was thinking about this while swimming at lunchtime. i was doing my two step because i wasn't fast enough to cut men before being cut and so in shiai would have conceded a point - thus my little maneuver bought me just enough extra time and space to cut men myself.

not as good as being better/faster than ones opponent i concede, but i was attempting to mitigate my weaknesses in an attempt to carry thru an attack, which i think would be okay in a shiai.

as you say, what is poorer form is dodging and running because you have nothing to offer back as it were.

I am talking about Shiai here, i have come to the conclusion that in keiko you should take your wacks as the price for being too slow.

[Matthew Lagden]

also i would like to point out that i wasn't waggling my head to avoid the strike - my posture was fine (or as good as i can make it anyway), i had just moved my body to a place where my opponent didn't expect it to be - about 6 inches to the right to be precise - thus my oppenents shinai was whistling down onto my left shoulder.

i agree about waggling the men - "stay still damn you!!"

[Confound]

<sarcasm>
Careful there, Kendokamax. You don't want to agree too often with the devil, could cost you.
</sarcasm>

c