"Old" kendoka, withered sakura?

[richard haly]

Greetings

A fellow kendoka returned to practicing kendo (3x weekly) after an absence of close to 30 years and I have done likewise. He recently expressed concern at his perceived loss of athleticism and was concerned about his (our) ability to progress. While both of us are in our early 50s, quite fit, and not at all "stuck" in our practice, we are aware - perhaps more than the younger kendoists - of how much there is to accomplish in this discipline. While we are neither as "strong" nor as fast as some younger kendoka, I think our age can be something of an advantage as we see things differently. I am less stubborn in my learning habits than I was 30 years ago and at some level able to learn faster. Both of us recall having fenced "really old" kendoka, men in their 70s and 80s who moved "slowly" but were unerring in their abilities. Their ability is what we aim for. However, we do not know whether this ability is the result of having done kendo for, say, 50 years or whether it is something that age can bring. The difficulty lies in who to ask about this. Our sensei is Japanese and made go-dan at age 24. He is now in his early thirties so his sense of what happens with age will be colored by his own perspective. Likewise, one of the other local sensei-s, a Japanese man in his late 70s - hachi-dan, I think - who has done kendo since his youth would not be in any better position to answer where his skill came from. So I guess we need to hear stories about people who are now in their seventies and who returned (or even began) kendo in their 50s. Does age, like blindness, contribute to the "overdevelopment" of other abilities? That is, is the relative slowness of age compensated by, say, focus - just as blind people develop better hearing?

Naoki Tamasue
Richard Haly

Den-wa-kan
Denver, Colorado

[alexpollijr]

Well, my sensei is in his early fifties two. He has not the same stamina and strenght to withstand longe sessions of strenuos practices like kakarigeiko, but the fact is, he doesn't need it.

In keiko and shiai he remains lightning fast and with awesome precision. SO I think that while heavy-duty exercises you might feel the weight of age, but after that, I don't think that it'll matter that much.

Just my two cents

Alex Polli

[richard haly]

Thanks Alex,

Stamina isn't really the issue I'm trying to get at here. I imagine your sensei who is more or less my age has been doing kendo since he was much younger. If that is the case, then I suggest that he once was much faster etc. However, what I am curious about is whether his current ability is a/ the result of having done kendo when he was much younger, b/ the result of having done kendo for a long time, and/or c/ an ability that can be learned at "any" age? Is it possible to skip all the bobbing and weaving that one sees in highschool kendoists (often with attendant wrist speed) and develop the seemingly slower, more "meditative" style?

Best,

Richard

[alexpollijr]

Dear Richard,

That's difficult to say. From my point of view on Kendo, the one I learned from my sensei, there are two different 'kinds' or 'styles' of kendo. First, there's 'shiai' kendo, which does indeed feature all the head-bobbing, wrist-bending and bad feet kamae that you mentioned. After all, you're in a match to win. And there's Kendo for the sake of Kendo, which is the proud, beautiful, heads-up and large waza that most of us love. If your aim is not the 'sporting' or 'competitive' side of kendo, I don't see why age would be any problem.

As I said in the beginning, I'm do not have the authority to speak properly on the question, but these are my two cents.

Cheers,

Alex Polli

[richard haly]

Obligato Alex,

It is indeed "the proud, beautiful, heads-up and large waza that most of us love" that I'm interested in - which nonetheless, for all its awareness and not "sticking" ought to be able to defeat the other shiai style. So age 53 isn't "too late" to develop a "zen body," something that sees and finds a way with whatever athleticism it has...?

Best,

Richard

[Ted Bouck]

Richard,

I am not really qualified to answer your question, since I am only 38 and have done sword related combatives since I was 21. But I can tell you, that I think about this same question, and my experience shows me that the "perceptive skills", "mushin reflexes" and fudoshin are the ones that allow the 70 year old to do do what you describe. IMHO

Can these skills be learned at 53 so by 70 you are there?, I can't say, but I would say "no" for certain, unless your teacher[s] understand that these skills are the ones you want to develop and that they are interested in[and now how] to teach them to you. I believe that knowing what I know now, I might be able to train these skills to someone [who is "empty-in their cup"] faster then I learned them. [This is purely conjectural unfortunately] Meaning by perhaps a third in time reduction.

These skills are definately "time" related, but as all things, the time to learn curve is modifiable with the right training and by the pupils involved.

Good luck, I hope I have been of some help.

Best Regards, Ted

[BaconBurritoDog]

There is a sensei at at a dojo I visit sometimes who is 83 years old. He is a 6 or 7 dan now, and he didn't begin Kendo till he was 50 years old. This sensei, Asai Sensei, is one of the roughest sensei I have ever practiced with. He still competes in shiai!

If you are not carefull you will definitely go home with a sore head and a bruised wrist. Even the young "hot-shots" know to be careful with him! Anyone who has ever practiced with him will recogognize this saying:"You've gotta CUT the son of a bitch!"

I want to be just like Asai Sensei when I am 83 years old.:D

[richard haly]

Thanks Folks,

I'm beginning to think - per the above posts - that the only people who continue to do kendo when they are older are those who have been able to achieve some sort of mushin or fudoshin and that this - as Ted pointed out - is not guaranteed. I know that a certain degree of skill is obtainable just by sticking with something for a long time. I suppose that if one were to quantify it, one would find that a lot of people do kendo when they are young and have various degrees (pun intended) of athletic success, but without the teaching and interest in the zen aspect of kendo they do not continue. So when we see elderly kendoka who possess this quality maybe we are not taking into account all the other people who used to practice and no longer do so as they never developed the zen of it. This perhaps leads to an understanding of my (now?) incorrect statement of the problem in the first post wherein I wondered if the fudoshin came as a consequence from years of kendo. I'm starting to think not, or at any rate, it's not "automatic."

Teachers are important. Our sensei is very different from the sensei I first studied with years ago at a different dojo. He actually explains the reasons behind things and is not at all hierarchical in his method, but will teach things usually "reserved" for advanced students to young students as well. :eek: Even if the young students do not fully understand what's going on (not that I do) we can all use what we learn to compare & correct our other practice, e.g. having trouble with fumi komi? learn jodan as the difference between it and chudan makes one feel chudan differently.

re. Asai Sensei, from the description of sore head and bruised wrist I can't picture this kind of kendo from someone 83 years old. BBD, please describe more of his technique and/or ask him about this issue...

Best,

Richard

Shaka ni toute
mitaki koto ari
fuyugomori
...Shiki

Winter seclusion;
There is something I'd like to ask
Shakyamuni.

[BaconBurritoDog]

Oh, I am not kidding about Asai Sensei- I am surer KendoMan will back me up on this one, or anyone from the SCKF who has practiced with him.

He says that the Kendo is what keeps him young. His Kendo is very simple, very defensive. He just waits for you to go for the men or the kote, he'll usually parry the cut and give you a big Do or MEN. If you get close enough for him to reach your kote he will, and he hits very hard.

I guess the thing is he is patient and he'll wait for the perfect cut.

There is another Sensei at Gardena JCI in california, Amemiya Sensei. I believe he is 80ish years old and he is very good. He's fast and has excellent technique. I don't know if you have ever heard of (the legendary) Tarao Mori Sensei, but he was one of his students and was in fact the last person to practice with him the night he died during keiko. Thats not the point though. One time I saw him do the combo- left men, right men, left do, right do- each one hit clean, lightning fast and perfect technique.

There are alot of really good older sensei in Southern California. Its very impressive.

[Hyaku]

Reaching 55 in a few months perhaps qualifies me to answer.

It really has nothing to do with age. It is a well accepted fact that your purpose for practice alters with age, eg. 20s-30s 30-40s.

It is also said that anyone over 20 is past his best and the kusei (bad habits start to creep in. According to this most of us are over the top anyway!

As the epitome of our practice is on when we move and not how fast we move. We all have many years to work on it. I often used to worry a little wether or not I would reach a reasonable standard before I got to old to get the hard work done but it has not presented a problem. Fighting High School kids is a bit like a set to with a very predictable mosquito.

I would have to disgree with not needing to do kakari geiko. You still need to get up the top end at some dojo and get your medicine. Being on the teaching side all day and everyday I still enjoy the thrill and challenge of being a student.

Im sure the Ashahi Sensei mentioned is a real bruiser. The older ones cuts cut hard and deep. Not like the new ones that can't even get both hands above the eyeline.

Hyaku

[richard haly]

very predictable mosquito:

Thanks, this got me thinking (if that's not putting too fine a point on it...)

I agree about high schoolers and think that it might be age or at least some quantifiable maturity in kendo that distinguishes it from a sport. That is, it is topics such as seme and fudoshin that are not typically "covered" in highschool gym classes.

The issue of speed is interesting. Speed can either be doing things faster - the usual American way of thinking about it - or it can be doing things closer. Since the shortest distance between point A (monouchi) and point B (kote, men, etc.) is a (straight) line, the lack of raw speed in an attack from a great distance can be made up by attacking closer. That is, by using seme to cause your opponent to hit men, for example, while you strike kote as s/he moves into jodan. That way, not having to move as far, one is faster. Speed is economy of movement.

I wonder how one can talk about both seme and fudoshin as part of the same thing as seme seems to imply a kind of focus - almost thinking - while fudoshin would not. If I say that seme is some sort of pro-active fudoshin, well I can understand that gramatically. but in practice, I'm clueless. Any thoughts?