Traditional purists and modern competitors.

[Nishi]

Im hoping some experienced people can enlighten this thread a little bit, but i'd like to hear everyones thoughts in general.

Im hitting a moral fork in my training where im looking at the paths people can take in kendo. This was instigated by a rather cool nanadan last year, and I guess he got me questioning myself, as these sensei often do. In short, he made me ask myself why am I doing kendo, and almost a year later im still wondering.
I didnt want to duplicate the "what are your training goals" thread, but I am trying to understand the line between modern shiai and purist kendo. I have been told many many times that, "to see some of the worst form in kendo, you need only look to some of the police taikai in Japan", but paradoxically these individuals are often considered the cream of the kendo crop. We also have the popular sayings as well, like "the sword is the mind" and "the immovable mind", but mentally speaking, modern shiai is very busy, and mentally resembles western sports in terms of sports psycology.
My conversation ended with this sensei on an interesting note, he said "in a real duel, the person about to be cut (meaning dispatched) would certianly make an effort to move out of the way". Man this has made me think! I am certainly questioning the purists approach to kendo. This is not to be mistaken with the basic drills and forms we learn, but how much pure form is enough before it becomes ingnorance??

(I was lucky to meet this sensie, and enjoyed having supper with him.)

[Cheese_Man]

Personally i think a mix of both has helped me along with what little experience i have. Shiai can be used as a good training tool to iimprove your kendo since it lets you compare your self to others in your division and have a goal to to improve towards beside rank. But at hte same time it can develop bad habits very quickly like if a kendoaka (like me...) does something bad in the sense of "purist kendo" and wins the match, it often reconditions the kendoaka into repeating that same thing in keiko. Its really common in the lower ranks, like doing alot of shoving and poorly swung hits. Anyways just my 2 cents.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think you need to rephrase that in the form of a question, David.

[Halcyon]

I would argue that the "line between modern shiai and purist kendo" is a false dichotomy. It implies that one only has the option of pursuing either shiai kendo or some idealized form of "pure" kendo. I would certainly agree that one shouldn't strive for a form of kendo intended soley to score points. But shiai certainly serves a purpose. It allows oneself to gauge one's progress, and also to motivate oneself to train harder.

It's a legitimate thing to ask oneself, "What am I training for?" But at some point, you have to make an existential leap of faith that what you're doing is worthwhile, or that you enjoy it, regardless of its "purpose." The reality is that kendoka are NOT training to fight in real duels with real katana. They are training to be good at kendo. Personally, I try to avoid what some people would call "tricky" kendo. But some of the kendoka I admire most (with very nice "straight" styles) also are VERY good at shiai.

Whether shiai kendo itself is bad kendo is a separate issue. If enough sensei agreed that shiai kendo is a legitimate problem, then it could be remedied to a great extent by the IKF. They could redefine what actually constitutes a "point." Judging defines what is acceptable in modern kendo. If they wanted to make kendo more like fighting with a katana, all they need to do is modify the definition of yukodatotsu.

[fe-taru tora]

Kendo, in the meaning is the way of the sword, we have all at first looked into the history of kendo and why it is here today. But the thing we must remeber is that even though it is a "sport" now, it was a way of survival in Japan. If we treat kendo as a sport then the meaning of kendo is lost, believe that you will be cut and that you can die, then you will feel the spirit of kendo. Every time I walk into the dojo my life is in danger so mushin is very present in my practice, I keep this frame of mind not because I am wacked out but this is the way it would have felt in the early 15th century with Japanese fencers, they had no protection and would lose they're lives in practice.

[steliosk]

Disclaimer:
I do not consider kendo a sport. For me it is Budo. As horrible as I am at it, I try to remember that and I hope that will be (some day?) reflected in my kendo....

I think to a great extent the whole "kendo now is a sport, it is going downhill, eh, in the old days we did not do all this cheap stuff" is overreaction.
BUT:
It is easy to fall prey to the mindset though; if you cannot score using a proper "flesh-and-bone-tearing" proper full waza, you try the quick flicking waza to counterract the opponents use of those same fast waza.
Anyway, there is room for even those in kendo, they are part of the environment and its modern evolution. I will however repeat and agree what was said earlier on; changing the definition of yukodatotsu would probably greatly change what people work towards. I would not mind that, even if it would make kendo more challenging for me than it currently is. :smiley:

[Mikeyprime]

Im hoping some experienced people can enlighten this thread a little bit, but i'd like to hear everyones thoughts in general.

Im hitting a moral fork in my training where im looking at the paths people can take in kendo. This was instigated by a rather cool nanadan last year, and I guess he got me questioning myself, as these sensei often do. In short, he made me ask myself why am I doing kendo, and almost a year later im still wondering.
I didnt want to duplicate the "what are your training goals" thread, but I am trying to understand the line between modern shiai and purist kendo. I have been told many many times that, "to see some of the worst form in kendo, you need only look to some of the police taikai in Japan", but paradoxically these individuals are often considered the cream of the kendo crop. We also have the popular sayings as well, like "the sword is the mind" and "the immovable mind", but mentally speaking, modern shiai is very busy, and mentally resembles western sports in terms of sports psycology.
My conversation ended with this sensei on an interesting note, he said "in a real duel, the person about to be cut (meaning dispatched) would certianly make an effort to move out of the way". Man this has made me think! I am certainly questioning the purists approach to kendo. This is not to be mistaken with the basic drills and forms we learn, but how much pure form is enough before it becomes ingnorance??

(I was lucky to meet this sensie, and enjoyed having supper with him.)
This is a very interesting topic indeed. I think that the purist kendo and shiai are one in the same with a few distint differences (basically making it almost a paradox). Purist kendo is not so much the apparent, but rather the unseen. That is to say purist kendo says, Beauty and honor in victory AND death. What you see in modern shiai is fast tricky and often times, horrible kendo (not beauty and filled with honor) and contradicts that school of thought. However, whatyou mention above about if you are about to die, you wil certainly try to get out of the way [whatever means necessary] is what convultes modern kendo and sets the two apart. There is no answer or solution. The fact remains that you should try to do the kendo you practice at your dojo (usually purist kendo) in shiai to the best you can. Human nature will not allow you lose even if it means bobbing your head out of the way, doing a half-assd men etc. The interesting part is modern kendo and purist kendo coexist. This also segways into why shinsa kendo is different from shiai kendo. This thread has certainly got me thinking....

[Nishi]

I think you need to rephrase that in the form of a question, David.

It was more of a thought that reflects a complicated contradiction in my training at this point. I guess im at the point where I watch some taikai and see certain kenshi (not bad, but at different stages) snap up points on physical skill with no real technique, and of course theres that Sensei most of us admire who dosnt move at all, then cuts with the ultimate grace...whats the path to this purist kendo, does it really exist. I have to admit that I did realise the post wasnt in a "how do you do a .<enter waza here>.." form, I guess the core of the question could be 'why keep purist form and ideals' .

Halcyon
Actually I see this as a positive fork in my kendo. As we are not training to fight real duels its safe to say we are training in several related ideas. Its those contradicting ideas im sorting through. I wish IKF would just bring taikai rules into line with shiai standards.

fe-taru tora
I like the reply.

[nysamurai]

I'd rather thought that "Nishi's" inquiry would have generated scads more traffic then it has thus far. That said, the "quality" of the opinions that have been offered speaks for itself.

For me, it is, and has always been, important to strike an emotional and mental balance between the modern day "sport" of kendo and its martial origins. Any activity that has "evolved" from a once deadly serious buisness into a sport, or game, is bound to cause some confusion, especially for a student hailing from the west (ern hemisphere).

Modern western fencing evolved from the tradition of dueling but is now practiced in a way that would be very unfamiliar to duelists of old, the goal being to score on your opponent before they score on you, and that the idea of taking a hit is just fine as long as your got there first. The same sorts of comparisons can be made of judo, tae kwon do, archery and other martial traditions which are now practiced as sports, olypic and otherwise.

In the west, one usually will not find kendo on ones local high school's physical education offerings. We are more geared, socially, toward baseball, football, basketball, hockey and soccer as our "sports". So, for me, the martial art traditions of the japanese sword are "what brung me here" and what keep me here. But that, of course, is a personal preference.

Though we share common traditions, history and practice, I believe that kendo should still be a unique and different expereince for each of us. That seems quite natural to me and is what will keep it "fresh" for all of us. So I believe that we should all ask ourselves the "why do I train" question over and over again. It is as integral to the growth process, as a kendo practitioner, as is your sword.

But in the final analysis, it is only a means to an end. A vehicle to grow and presumably become a better martial artist, sportsman, brother, friend, colleague, husband, wife, etc., etc., and on and on. on the other hnad, if scoring points is what turns someones crank, more power to 'em.

Let it be for you what you wish it to be.

[hamish]

Funnily enough, this kind of debate seems to be more heated in foreign countries.

In Japan, its accepted that you'll do different kinds of kendo at different stages in your life, and you shouldn't try to do the un-moving, one-strike-one point kind of old man's kendo until you go through the other stages, including the full-on 'battle' of shiai.

As the nanadan was maybe thinking, if anything, cop's kendo is the closest thing to the medieval samurai 'workplace'. These guys aren't competing to preserve some perceived 'correct kendo', they're doing it to survive (and for pride). Sure they're not going to get killed, but the outcome can determine how much money they make for their families, and these days, whether they even have a job! Surely that focuses your mind more effectively than the 'if this was a real sword...' mind-set?

In that position, are you going to bob your head out of the way when your opponent is too slow to hit you? Hell yes! Does it mean you only see kendo as a sport? Most likely not.

[ben]

Maybe you have started the process of losing your reliance on outside measurement of your kendo. Doubt is good. Questioning is good. "I don't know" is good. :)

b

[hyuna]

My conversation ended with this sensei on an interesting note, he said "in a real duel, the person about to be cut (meaning dispatched) would certianly make an effort to move out of the way"
In a duel, someone may try to avoid being cut.
However, one does not try to avoid the cut of the kaishaku.

Sometimes, it is appropriate to let yourself be cut.

In kendo practice, what is the thing that is actually meant to be killed: the physical form of your opponent, or the fear that is in your mind? That is, is kendo about defeating your opponent or defeating yourself?

[Kozushi]

So, was the shinai invented so someone could 'achieve enlightenment'???
Hell no!
It was invented in order to practice swordfighting, and this in order to learn how to kill with the sword. It was proven in duels that those who practiced with shinai beat those who didn't. This is why Kendo-style training was adopted by the samurai.
Unfortunately, the modern excessive-Zanshin rule has wrecked Kendo. Now, it is fine to allow your opponent to hit you as long as you block his Zanshin follow-through. If the samurai of old saw this crap rule they'd spit on it. They are all turning in their graves.

[Old Warrior]

So, was the shinai invented so someone could 'achieve enlightenment'??? Hell no! It was invented in order to practice swordfighting, and this in order to learn how to kill with the sword.

Okay, so now that swordfighting is no longer a reality and no one is practicing kendo so as to better his skill to kill someone with a sword - do we put down our shinai and take up marksmanship with a new Glock or take krav maga?

I think we ought to pursue the kendo that our school head wants us to learn. And if that doesn't suit you - move on to another school or another hobby. Shiai is what it is. The judges have an idea of what is good kendo and they try to hold you to that standard. If you meet it - you win. If you think its dumb - stay home.

I agree with you that excessive zanshin would be meaningless in one on one combat where you just theoretically dealt your opponent a killing blow. But, if zanshin is also showing readiness and preparedness for the next encounter - there is logical sense to its inclusion in kendo. Part of studying kendo is learning and following the rules of the art. Does it also irk you that you can't hit someone from behind? And why not count cuts to the legs?

It seems to me that keeping historical skills alive is either something you enjoy or you don't. Analyzing what we do from the perspective of combat training strikes me as somewhat pointless.

[Kirin]

See ... Kozushi, are getting a concept of zanshin all wrong.
There is no such thing as an excessive zanshim :redface:
(you are talking about appealing to the judges :cool: )
As I mentioned in zanshin thread, zanshin is nothing but your daily life.
Folding hakama, straightining fellow dojo member's shoes, cleaning your desk for next day,....etc.

Yes kendo orginated from sword fighting.
But after every live or die shinken battles, there were always regret, respect and mourning toward opponent(s).
If you dont have that, you should be considered same as Jason or Freddie.
We are not mass murderers.
We can not practice kendo without your opponent.

Lets thank and respect your partner :wink:
Just look at kendo kata.
In #1, shidachi end up killing uchidachi... shidachi shows zanshin including regret, respec and mourning toward opponent.
In #2, from past(#1) experience, shidachi does not kill uchidachi...just imobilize uchidachi by cutting arm off.
In #3, from #2 experience, shidachi seize uchidachi with ki... without blood.

Kendo is all based on japanese philosophy "live and die gracefuly"
So modern kendo aka 'shiai kendo' is forgetting this basic concept.
You can say kendo is only budo deeply based on 'reihou', manner and etiquet.
You see so many ppl without this in 'shiai kendo'. For example, excessive point appeal towrad shinpan, walking back to start line with only one hand on shinai after point scored, taking time going back to start line, or high touch/excessive cheering during/between the match.
Even we bow each other, 'shiai' minded ppl never understand concept behind why we bow. why we sonkyo and why we sonkyo & bow again......

In modern kendo, we never face shinken battle, so we dont have to mourn.
But we still need to respect your opponent(s).
In kendo match, there always be a winner and loser. (even in a team match,
there will be daihyou-sen when necessary)
So if you win, respect your opponent. (what if you were the losing side?)
There is no such a thing as 'I kicked your ass' in Kendo.

Wheather traditional or modern kendo, there always should be respect and thankfulness toward your opponents, sensei, senpai and fellow dojo mates.

[Kirin]

back to original post by Nishi

If you look at all 8-dans in Japan, non-competitors has more success passing 8-dan test in first time. In fact majority of All Japan Championships competitors have tested for 8-dan more than 5 times.
I wonder why? :cool:

Also, other than Meijimura-Taikai, AJKF is limiting 8-dan shiai, especially after they omitted 9-dan rank.
Instead of shiai, they use term 'enbu'.... meaning demonstration
no win or lose.
I guess they are trying to smooth out politic thingies......

[Kozushi]

Etiquette is of course very important in any activity, and escpecially so in a combative one.
However, what we see in tournaments nowadays is people who are good at blocking the opponent's Zanshin, but are not good at blocking the opponent's hits!!! They let the opponent hit them, but then block his body as he tries to rush past him!
This is RIDICULOUS!

[taiwnezboi]

Etiquette is of course very important in any activity, and escpecially so in a combative one.
However, what we see in tournaments nowadays is people who are good at blocking the opponent's Zanshin, but are not good at blocking the opponent's hits!!! They let the opponent hit them, but then block his body as he tries to rush past him!
This is RIDICULOUS!

but you don't need to rush past them to get a point...

[Nishi]

Funnily enough, this kind of debate seems to be more heated in foreign countries.* cut*

So this made me look through scads of Japanese sources for related comments. I have bought a new book latley with several Japanese-American Nanadan commenting on similar issues and wanted to share some of these related paragraphs...As NeilG said, I didnt ask a very direct question, but wanted to instigate an open-air discussion to sort through some deeper ideas with everyone, please excuse the lazy format of the thread and feel free to lay down your own random thoughts.

THE WARRIORS PATH
Wisdom from contemporary martial arts masters
(Taken from The Warriors Path pg91, Yoshimitsu Takeyasu.)
-The biggest difference from the kendo practiced in olden days is that more emphasis is placed on winning at matches. This is particularly apparent at schools. It can be said that kendo is a form of self-expression. Through practicing kendo you can aquire self fulfillment-it is an expression of yourself. So winning and losing is a secondary matter in that view. Kendo does have a sport element. However, if emphasis is placed on that element only, then I think it becomes negative. Of course once a kendo match is started, you have to win, and the shinai and bogu protectors are the tools you use for that. But there are two aspects, where winning and losing are still very important, and also the spiritual aspect of kendo, which is profound and highly valued.

(Taken from The Warriors Path pg135, Rod Nobuto Omoto.)
-Tradition is not important. If you say tradition is important, you have to act according to that. You're forcing yourself. You don't do things because you love it- you've got to go by your own tradition. Bullshit. What's the big deal about? I'm just trying to share my kendo experiences. I'm not a sensei, I dont teach kendo, I dont have the quality to teach kendo. Ogawa sensei, just like the other great senseis, didnt teach me any kendo. I just watched and learned myself. So actually I don't have any students, I'm not a teacher, I don't teach them anything.


(Just wanted to share some related/interesting reading)

[Kozushi]

but you don't need to rush past them to get a point... But that is how the refs decide whether you did Zanshin or not: even look at the videos from the last world championships! I see guys getting hit tonnes of times but blocking the other guy's rush-past. The refs didn't give any points for those hits!
This junk has got to stop!
Zanshin is internal, not external. You cannot 'show' zanshin.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You're confused, Kozushi. It's perfectly fine to get a point without going through - if the opponent is in the way, just carry on into taiatari.

[Lloromannic]

You cannot 'show' zanshin. I think zanshin can and is shown in Kendo. However what I think you mean is that rushing past the opponnent is not zanshin right? In this case I agree with you in the cases that someone does a half-assed cut and then rushes past the other person shinai held high and screaming like his mother was on fire. Indeed this is not zanshin. It is only a way to cover up for what he missed. However when you see someone keeping centre, aggresively seme-ing and making a strile that lets the opponent flat footed and then continues his path to the side of the other person then I think it is Zanshin.

[Lucien]

Im hitting a moral fork in my training
Why are you hitting forks?

<Groans>

[hyuna]

So, was the shinai invented so someone could 'achieve enlightenment'???
Hell no!
It was invented in order to practice swordfighting, and this in order to learn how to kill with the sword. It was proven in duels that those who practiced with shinai beat those who didn't. This is why Kendo-style training was adopted by the samurai.
Shinai were indeed invented to practice swordfighting.

But the shinai is a tool, and it serves the purpose of the person who wields it. The samurai were the warrior class, and the warrior's role in life is to fight and to kill. Any tool used by the samurai is framed by that role in life. All tools used by a professional warrior are ultimately for fighting and for killing.

Are you a proessional warrior? Is your role in life to kill? If so, I can understand why you would say that the shinai is only for learning how to kill. Similarly, I can understand why anyone commenting on the "old days" would say that the "old days" were 100% focused on competition. For them, kendo was indeed about winning and killing.

However, in this world, how many of us are practicing kendo with intent to cut people down with the sword?

If your goal in life is not to kill, and the shinai is for learning to kill with the sword, why are you learning how to do something that is against your goals (and, hopefully, your morals)?

If your goal in life is not to kill, and kendo is not, for you, about killing, then in what way is your use of the shinai about learning how to kill with the sword?

I am not trying to say that there is a right or wrong way. Nishi said that he had doubt about the "purist's way" and I am just trying to show how one might conceive of it as a reasonable path to follow for some people.

[emitbrownne]

In Japan, its accepted that you'll do different kinds of kendo at different stages in your life, and you shouldn't try to do the un-moving, one-strike-one point kind of old man's kendo until you go through the other stages, including the full-on 'battle' of shiai.
Funnily enough we have been told the same thing quite recently...

I have always considered myself purist or aspired to be (despite my tinkering with nito or naginata).. however I have been told that you need to evolve your kendo.
You need all out attack at first
You need to have the win at any cost shiai mentality
You need to step back and work on pure kendo
and other bits inbetween

... what are the other stages?.. The conversation was actually quite short but caused me to rethink my approach. Hence my desire to enter the Lidstone Taikai this year...

My first competition...
My first real step..

[Mikeyprime]

Funnily enough we have been told the same thing quite recently...

I have always considered myself purist or aspired to be (despite my tinkering with nito or naginata).. however I have been told that you need to evolve your kendo.
You need all out attack at first
You need to have the win at any cost shiai mentality
You need to step back and work on pure kendo
and other bits inbetween

... what are the other stages?.. The conversation was actually quite short but caused me to rethink my approach. Hence my desire to enter the Lidstone Taikai this year...

My first competition...
My first real step..

This makes complete sense though. If you look at a humans' life, you will see we all go through stages. Infancy, adolescence, adulthood, elderly stages.

In my experince, speaking to the elderly, I learn more from them by listening and watching than I do a child. Granted, you learn from the child as well. But before you can come to a point like that, you must have experiences all perspectives to be well rounded and ultimately decide what fits you best.

Here is the kicker. Most begin kendo when they are children, thus their kendo can progress at the same rate as their life does and it is almost natural. The concept of purest kendo does always interest a 10 year old, he wants to annihalate his opponent and win. When a kendoka starts at a later age, say teen, young adult, more often than not, they do not wish to engage those stages and move straight to purest or something much closer. Of course, you still want the feeling of voctory over one's self and opponent, but your means of doing so change.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Although others have picked up on this to some extent, I think it's worth thinking about the validity of linking your 'pure' kendo back to old styles of swordsmanship. Members of a style would do their best not to reveal their school's techniques to others, so that when they had the opportunity to use them they would have the element of surprise. This strikes me as being rather distant from the kind of honesty and straightforwardness that people seem to expect us to aim for these days. Although some of the best known surviving schools stressed an attitude similar to 'pure' kendo, such as itto ryu with their 'kirioroshi' deepest secret, there were plenty of other 'dishonest' techniques within that style, and plenty of other schools who based their fighting around 'sneaky' techniques. I use the quotes because I don't think there's anything wrong with it when you're trying to stay alive. If you really want to look for the root of this 'pure' kendo mindset, I think it's more likely that you'll find it in the late Meiji period when kendo was brought back to life as a social/educational activity. Of course, the whole life/death issue is removed so you're free to find your own ideal.
It seems that most of the people have chosen 'straight kendo' as their assumed ideal when posting on this thread, but I prefer to think of the ideal as good shugyo. So, instead, of 'training for honest kendo', I'd like to think of 'training honestly'. I realize that this is a little vague, so I'll try and explain.
I do place policemen at the peak of the kendo world. In addition, I have a great deal of respect for japanese uni students, and definitely high school kids, no matter how funky their kendo is. Why is this? Because no matter how much you might like to slam their techniques, you can't argue with their commitment to shugyo. When was the last time you only had one day off practice in a year (as some kyushu schools do)? When was the last time you did an hour and a half's continuous kakarigeiko, with not breaks at all (as they do at tokyo met. police)? Well, I haven't done either of those, ever. Whatever you might think of the outward appearance of their kendo, I don't really think it's possible to attack their attitude towards kendo. I'm not necessarily saying that they do all this willingly, but doing it anyway is all part of good shugyo (and not getting told off by your seniors, of course...). In a world where kendo has no practical purpose and its main purpose is said to be the building of character, I reckon that these guys show us where kendo's true 'purity' really lies.

[hyuna]

Here is the kicker. Most begin kendo when they are children, thus their kendo can progress at the same rate as their life does and it is almost natural. The concept of purest kendo does always interest a 10 year old, he wants to annihalate his opponent and win. When a kendoka starts at a later age, say teen, young adult, more often than not, they do not wish to engage those stages and move straight to purest or something much closer. Of course, you still want the feeling of voctory over one's self and opponent, but your means of doing so change.
I think this is a great point and it brings up the question of if it is really meant that one's kendo, per se, changes or if it is just that people change.

For example, while it is true that most people in Japan begin kendo when they are children, it is not really true in most of the US. When one says that there is beginner kendo vs advanced kendo it implies that all beginners, whether they are age 6, 16, 26, 36, 46, 56, 66, or whatever, should be doing the same kendo. Obviously, a 16 year old has very different perspectives and physical abilities as someone who is 56 (we have had 1-kyu of both ages in our club so this is not at all a facetious example) and I do not know if it is reasonable to expect the same kind of attack-attack-attack kendo from them both. "Old man" kendo, as Hamish put it, is not only about advanced skill but is also about the physical limitations of age. It might be more reasonable to say that 16 year olds should all practice the same type of kendo and that 56 year olds should practice their own sort of kendo. In that point of view, it is still true that there are stages to kendo, but perhaps they are not merely stages to kendo: perhaps they are stages to life that are reflected in kendo.


Because no matter how much you might like to slam their techniques, you can't argue with their commitment to shugyo.
I think this is a very strong point. One can ask if their commitment matters if it is not towards "correct" (whatever that means) kendo, but even that cannot be disputed when it comes to the police, etc: I am sure they practice as their sensei shows them, and that is probably the most "correct" form of practice regardless of any kind of philosophical idealism about what kendo "should be."

[Old Warrior]

... but even that cannot be disputed when it comes to the police, etc: I am sure they practice as their sensei shows them, and that is probably the most "correct" form of practice regardless of any kind of philosophical idealism about what kendo "should be."

As I previously wrote: "I think we ought to pursue the kendo that our school head wants us to learn. And if that doesn't suit you - move on to another school or another hobby." For most of us our overwhelming (in time) kendo experience is what we face in our daily/weekly practice. I don't think one needs to intellectualize beyond that to have a satisfying journey.

[Charlie]

Lots of good points being made in this thread.

I have to ask, though, why this keeps coming up? Why do people keep insisting there's that big a difference between pure kendo and competition kendo?

As I've said in the past, after someone wins a competition, they go to the dojo the next day and still get their arses kicked by their sensei.

Let me also note that there are people in the shiai-jo AWARDING those points, and that those people are experienced kendoka. So we on the sidelines may think a point is not deserved: two out of three judges did. Are you sure it wasn't worthy? I don't know what kind of matches you folks keep seeing, but I never see crap kendo. Maybe it's just that the shinpans in the Midwest are better than they are in your area.

Let me look at it another way. Okay, you decide you want to be better at shiai. How do you do this? Do you look for tricks, ask someone to teach you tricks, practice tricks? No, there are two ways to get better at shiai.

1) More shiai

2) More kendo - usually, straight, basic "pure" kendo

Am I right? Don't forget, nothing about our training is superfluous or unnecessary. It's all beneficial.

Last point: competition in perspective. Taikai is only a fraction of shiai. An important fraction, to be sure, but only a fraction.

[Kingofmyrrh]

I agree with Charlie. I don't really see much of a difference (which is why I was quote-marking all the words like 'sneaky' in my previous post). The only reasons that I can think of for people coming up with this distinction are either shinpan giving points for invalid waza, in which case you can't blame people for modifying their kendo to suit the playing field, or otherwise people with their own notions of what kendo should be and what it should be ok to do. For my reference as to what's ok, I use the best competitors judged by the best sensei, which is invariably shown at competitions like all-japan or police competitions. I mean, if 8th dan sensei say it's a point (and therefore 'good' kendo) then who am I to argue?

[Mikeyprime]

I agree with Charlie. I don't really see much of a difference (which is why I was quote-marking all the words like 'sneaky' in my previous post). The only reasons that I can think of for people coming up with this distinction are either shinpan giving points for invalid waza, in which case you can't blame people for modifying their kendo to suit the playing field, or otherwise people with their own notions of what kendo should be and what it should be ok to do. For my reference as to what's ok, I use the best competitors judged by the best sensei, which is invariably shown at competitions like all-japan or police competitions. I mean, if 8th dan sensei say it's a point (and therefore 'good' kendo) then who am I to argue?
I do not beleive there is sneaky kendo either. There is kendo where a bad point went in becase of bad form which is sometimes associated with sneaky kendo. ie. a men that barely cuts the opponent and is somewhat sideways and hits the side of the men. Many people call that sneaky. It is not sneaky, it is just as visible as a nicer men, just poorly executed. Any good referee can make the distinction. However, we are not always graced with excellent referees.

2. those that complain of sneaky kendo only do so because they fall for it. Fact of the matter is a correctly executed waza is a correctly executed waza and that is not sneaky. However, those compaliners do not fall for those waza, they fall for the opponent that is constantly feinting his shinai or making bizarre body movements. A good kendoka will not be affected by the sneaky kendo. Granted you cannot parry everything 100% of the time or occasionally fall for a "sneaky" move, but it more rare than common. Thus sneaky kendo will not show itself within a higher rankes person. But one must be able to make the distinction of a good waza vs sneaky kendo.

[hyuna]

I have to ask, though, why this keeps coming up? Why do people keep insisting there's that big a difference between pure kendo and competition kendo?
Because there is a big difference. The misconception, in my opinion, is that it has something to do with form. To me, form is just an outward expression of the difference in mindset, and it is the mindset which is the important thing. But the difference in form is, ultimately, trivial.


As I've said in the past, after someone wins a competition, they go to the dojo the next day and still get their arses kicked by their sensei.
Indeed. So the question is: why do people care about how they place in competition? Why do they even care about going to competition?


So we on the sidelines may think a point is not deserved: two out of three judges did. Are you sure it wasn't worthy?
For myself, if I have an opinion on a point, it is not because of "straightness" vs "trickiness."


Let me look at it another way. Okay, you decide you want to be better at shiai. How do you do this? Do you look for tricks, ask someone to teach you tricks, practice tricks?
It is difficult to differentiate "trick" from "waza." After all, any repeatable sequence of movements is a technique, hence, waza. And, the first time you encounter a legitimate waza, one is likely to be taken by surprise, hence, "tricked." Especially for something like katsugi-waza.

I, for one, see people asking for techniques all the time in order to again advantage. Is that asking for "tricks" or "waza"? I am not sure from the way you phrased your point.

Is this semantic confusion the reason you see shiai and "straight" kendo as being more similar than different? Again, in my view, the difference in form is merely superficial.


Don't forget, nothing about our training is superfluous or unnecessary. It's all beneficial.

Last point: competition in perspective. Taikai is only a fraction of shiai. An important fraction, to be sure, but only a fraction.
These two points rely on the teachings we get from "straight" kendo. Kickboxers, fencers, javellin throwers, etc do not seem to worry much about the parts of shiai which are not taikai in their own worlds. Even the distinction we have between jigeiko and shiai does not really exist for most fighting sports. Bouting for boxers, fencers, etc, is the same as competition except for some informality. This is unlike kendo, where sensei routinely admonish people that keiko is not shiai.

I think it is difficult to see the difference because Americans, in particular, are raised in a culture where virtually everything is competitive. We are apt to measure one's success at anything through competition or advancement. This is something that can be overcome, but my point is that it is easy to think of keiko as being something that is done only to prepare for tournaments and tests, and, if you look at it that way, of course there is not that much difference between "straight kendo" and "tournament kendo" or "test kendo." You cannot prepare for something by practicing for it in the wrong way. But, that is not the only way to look at it.

To me, the question is very simple: what is your goal?

Some people practice in order to beat other people. They go to keiko to do better in shiai. If they aren't in shiai, they feel successful when they score more points in keiko (even though keiko is not about points). That, to me, is "competition kendo." It has nothing to do with how "straight" or "twisty" the form is. It is often the case that people who are trying very hard to win will be more "twisty" as they push the envelope trying to score, but the difference in form is not really the point. The point is that the measure of success for "competition kendo" is winning. I know many people like this.

To me, "pure kendo" is about practicing kendo for kendo's sake. Keiko is not for shiai, not for shinsa, not for recreation, not for "self-improvement," etc, etc, but just for kendo. That does not mean shiai, shinsa, recreation, self-improvement, etc have no meaning, it just means that the goal of practice is none of those things, per se. The improvement of any of those is a side effect and incidental, not a goal. I think of "pure kendo" as being selfless.

These are very different perspectives that have only an incidental relationship with "straight" vs "tricky."

Obviously things are not black/white -- people are not 100% one way or 100% the other way. But I do think that most people have a disposition that leans them one way or another, and I do think people can (and will) change over time.

[Charlie]

Arthur, truth is, there is semantic confusion: I'm never sure what people mean by "tricks." As you said, they are most likely waza. That's why I put it the way I did: "Whaddaya gonna do, ask someone to teach you some 'tricks?'"

I would argue, too, that other combative sports can have a jigeiko feeling during their free practice, like kendo. Sometimes boxers work on specific techniques during sparring, for example, and in judo, if all you tried to do in your randori was fight like you were fighting in shiai, you would be admonished for not trying to develop your waza. Dunno about fencing.

Regardless, I see what you're saying. On competition, I feel it has a valuable place in the kendoist's life. I think I already elaborated on that.

[Lloromannic]

Arthur, truth is, there is semantic confusion: I'm never sure what people mean by "tricks." As you said, they are most likely waza. That's why I put it the way I did: "Whaddaya gonna do, ask someone to teach you some 'tricks?'"
I'm not sure about the others but when I hear about tricks I think of head-bobbing or twisting your body sideways and hitting kote at an angle for example. Tacking on "zanshin" could also be considered tricks by me.

[fe-taru tora]

I noticed someone at practice the other night bobbing and weaving around but sempai never said anything or did'nt see it. is that allowed ? and also is the opposite side of the doh permitable to hit or is that bad ?

[Charlie]

Yes, you can hit it, usually going backwards.

The bobbing and weaving is discouraged, but if someone wants to try it, you can let them find their own way. Thing is, how can you strike if your bobbing and weaving? Or, if you were bobbing and weaving, you must have stopped it long enough to strike?

[hyuna]

I agree that a "jigeiko feeling" can be brought into any kind of practice. I was making a rather sweeping generality that is that most activities do not view practice as having a different functional aesthetic than actual competition. "Martial arts" are different in that way.

I also absolutely agree with you that competition is valuable.

[fe-taru tora]

Yes, you can hit it, usually going backwards.

The bobbing and weaving is discouraged, but if someone wants to try it, you can let them find their own way. Thing is, how can you strike if your bobbing and weaving? Or, if you were bobbing and weaving, you must have stopped it long enough to strike?

yeah I don't think you would be able to have nice clean men cut if your bobbing to the right and left like a mad man, so the other side of the doh is ok, when can I use it ?

[steliosk]

My guess is it would be once you have been taught the technique by your sensei and you have a clear shot at it... there has been a discussion on this before...
I have never been really taught the technique by anyone, even though I have seen people do it before because they felt like it and I avoid trying it.
Plus I imagine it would have to be a near-perfect, powerful cut to go all the way through the imaginary saya and wakizashi...
See here http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2486

[fe-taru tora]

My guess is it would be once you have been taught the technique by your sensei and you have a clear shot at it... there has been a discussion on this before...
I have never been really taught the technique by anyone, even though I have seen people do it before because they felt like it and I avoid trying it.
Plus I imagine it would have to be a near-perfect, powerful cut to go all the way through the imaginary saya and wakizashi...
See here http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2486

The only time I have a problem with that is when doing keiko I get confused and go the other way,it does'nt help that I'm left handed, it feels kinda natural but I don't want to get into bad habits.

[steliosk]

Disclaimer: I am FAR too inexperienced in kendo to give concrete advice on these things, my sempai at the dojo as well as the forum are much better qualified than myself to answer these questions. I would not want to let anyone think that I am an "expert" or something of the sort...

[Charlie]

Tora, you mean you cut doh on the opponent's left, but going forward? AFAIK, that's unorthodox but allowed. You may wish to start a separate thread to get more feedback.

[Hai_hai]

...Im hitting a moral fork in my training where im looking at the paths people can take in kendo...
A moral fork? What does your sensei think? He's the one who is teaching you.

[taiwnezboi]

Tora, you mean you cut doh on the opponent's left, but going forward? AFAIK, that's unorthodox but allowed. You may wish to start a separate thread to get more feedback.

Why is it unorthodox to cut it going forward but not unorthodox when you cut it going backwards? We're taught both.

[Charlie]

I dunno, I'm guessing it's just harder to hit on that side going forward than the reverse, perhaps because of the positioning of the hands and feet, i.e.

[Neil Gendzwill]

We teach regular do going straight - hitting on the attacker's left, moving through on the left. The only time I see gyaku-doh done that way is with confused beginners.

[fe-taru tora]

Tora, you mean you cut doh on the opponent's left, but going forward? AFAIK, that's unorthodox but allowed. You may wish to start a separate thread to get more feedback.
yeah, instead of hit on the left side of the doh I hit the right side going forward. I was at practice last night and forgot to ask my sempai but I will monday. we did keiko again so I went against sempai and did'nt dare do it :ko: he probably would have kicked me or something, but now I am posed with a different problem with doh, I can't seem to feel good about my distance so when I cut I like dip to the ground a little bit and I'm have trouble rising back up.

[fe-taru tora]

We teach regular do going straight - hitting on the attacker's left, moving through on the left. The only time I see gyaku-doh done that way is with confused beginners.

I am a somewhat confused, kinda beginner only 3 months but I'm catching on fast. I have the foot work down and I listen to every thing my sempai has to say as well as other students. If you have any tips with doh cuts please help !

[fe-taru tora]

Tora, you mean you cut doh on the opponent's left, but going forward? AFAIK, that's unorthodox but allowed. You may wish to start a separate thread to get more feedback.

thank you I think I will do that, I hope it does'nt end up like my other thread ....lol it is a mess...note to all that have a imagination, never ask middle aged kendogan's to use thier's it turns out to be a analization parade, very annoying !!! But oh well ...lol...it is still fun

[Lloromannic]

We teach regular do going straight - hitting on the attacker's left, moving through on the left. The only time I see gyaku-doh done that way is with confused beginners. Isn't hitting on the attackers left (your right) gyaku do? :confused2

[fe-taru tora]

Isn't hitting on the attackers left (your right) gyaku do? :confused2

I hope we all can get some questions answered make sure if you visit vote on the site to bring more attention to it. Thank you, and lets hope we get this figured out :confused2 I getting dizzy

[Neil Gendzwill]

Isn't hitting on the attackers left (your right) gyaku do? :confused2
You are the attacker, your left, the aite's right. Aite's left is gyaku doh.

[Lloromannic]

You are the attacker, your left, the aite's right. Aite's left is gyaku doh
Sorry I understood and meant attacker as motodachi (as in kaeshi-do). Thanks for making it clear.

[Andoru]

In Japan, its accepted that you'll do different kinds of kendo at different stages in your life, and you shouldn't try to do the un-moving, one-strike-one point kind of old man's kendo until you go through the other stages, including the full-on 'battle' of shiai.

Funnily enough we have been told the same thing quite recently...

I have always considered myself purist or aspired to be (despite my tinkering with nito or naginata).. however I have been told that you need to evolve your kendo.
You need all out attack at first
You need to have the win at any cost shiai mentality
You need to step back and work on pure kendo
and other bits inbetween


Thank you both (and others who'd replied in kind) very very very much. My kendo has improved thanks to you all.