Sho-dan

[Confound]

Kendou really begins after sho-dan. Discuss.

(after thinking long and hard about it, it really does seem like everything before sho-dan is playing around. no one fails their sho-dan. after that you have to get serious, the fail rates increase dramatically between sho and ni dan. that said, i want to see what everyone else thinks. I know, some people will try to impale me on pointed fibre optics cables for saying that, but I'm curious nonetheless.)

c

[Critical_Bill]

well, in one way it starts at shodan, because then you start "learning" kendo.
remember that you have to learn to walk before you learn to run, so anything before shodan is defenetly not playing around :)

[Ares2907]

Now now, Confound, it's not nice to troll. :p

You'll probably get a sizeable amount of discussion (much of it tangential) because of the generality of the subject matter and the variance in the meaning of kyu grades in various countries.
kyu grades are (more or less) for children in Japan. Dan grades don't seem to mean much at all until you hit about 4th dan where you're generally regarded as knowing all the basics.
In contrast, here in Australia, attainment of kyu grades seem to be taken a lot more seriously I think in part because the Australian renmei doesn't want to be seen as another 'get your black-belt in 12 months!' type of outfit. I've sat on grading panels that have failed kyu graders that would probably have been handed a shodan in Japan without much fuss.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that it all depends a great many things most of which are entirely subjective. Here's a short list:

what rank means (if anything) in the environment in which you train.
what your goals as a kyu are
what your goals as a dan are
how committed you are to your training (and achievement of goals you may or may not have)
the list could go on and on.
Are you looking at this from the point of view of kyu graders?
low dan grades? higher dan grades? I'm sure the opinions will vary greatly.

Looking at the big picture, it may be tempting for the seasoned veterans to give the newbies a pat on the head and encourage them (until they prove themselves to be serious about it at which point you viciously beat them until they become malleable and you proceed to create your own army of utterly loyal kohai), but I think that is different to considering their kendo 'play' until they earn their stripes. If they are playing around, it's by choice (ala kendokamax's crazy kendo) or because they have a sensei without direction.

Maybe you want to consider refining your area of discussion (or not).

[JSchmidt]

Kendo starts the first time you pick up a shinai...you can't get to the other levels without doing that first.

Jakob

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Confound
Kendou really begins after sho-dan.

Someone (a sensei, I think) told me that the kanji for sho-dan can also be read as "new beginning".

If that is correct, then sho-dan could be seen as a confirmation that you have acquired correct basic technique and it is now time to move on...


R.

[saki_wooah]

Hmm... I think Shodan must be the point in your life when you really think Kendo is something important in your life and that you love it. You realize that kendo has to be taken more seriously from now on. Shodan must be like a contract between you and kendo. But still, kyu grades are really important, because it is where you discover all the different faces of kendo and see if you like it or not. You can try many things and decide later if you want to continue and before a dedicated fan.

nyway, that's what I think it is... because I haven't reached ikkyu yet ._.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Confound
Kendou really begins after sho-dan. Discuss.


I thought a while ago someone suggested that real kendo begins after 8th Dan???

:D

But on the serious side, grading is very external. I don't think I need 5 or 7 high grades to tell me that, "Hey, nice. Now we let you be a Shodan ---and you begin your Kendo from now on!"

Someone who train 5 days a week has a different level from someone who only train once or twice a week. They both can get graded in a year, and become Shodan. Whatever. In another grading thread Hyaku said there are people who just turned up and train for the grading, and there are people who trained hard all the way but at the end failed their grading. Don't you think that people train hard after Shodan because they "begin to" --I have a few Japanese schoolmates who dropped out after Nidan...

-----------------------
I have a close relative in Hong Kong who is 6th Dan in Aikido. He hide all the certs (paper rolled up in the tube) in the storeroom. I think they are all moulded last time he dig them up... What do you think that bunch of paper means to him?


Originally posted by Kendoka
Someone (a sensei, I think) told me that the kanji for sho-dan can also be read as "new beginning".


Don't take all the Japanese terminology literally all the time. Although Kanji for "Sho" really means "at the beginning", "at the early start of", or "first", not everything can be explained by tracing the Kanji origin.

But I'd skip the Kanji lesson this time.

[kendokamax]

yey

it really really matters on where you are and what qualifacations are asked for the grades etc.,.

where i am it is not too much, but I dont complaint too much either.

PS. yoo I only have a few months before i have to stop doing crazy kendo. I will probably go to Budo Daigaku next april so lets enjoy the moment for now lol

[Confound]

I'm aware of that, Mingshi, but whether the grade means anything to you or me, it means something to other people. I notice a difference in the way sho-dan and non-dan students are treated. There is a clear line of demarcation, the behaviour and expectations on either side are quite different.

Incidentally, I was not making reference to the kanji, but rather to a perception of differences in behaviour.

c

ps - Ares, I think I just did. (Crazy kendou is for shogakkusei and people who quickly become turtles sliding across the dojo floor in the hands of my seniors. I'm vicious, I enjoy watching them go flying.) I was hoping to leave it open to interpretation, mostly because it is a loaded question, and they generally tend to provoke firestorms initially, but sometimes at the end of the day, you're left with something to think about. Luckily for all of us, around here we're likely to be left with more than one thing to think about.

[kendokamax]

kote..........?

[kendokamax]

hmm kendo really begins when you start kendo.

Since everyone has to stop kendo at least once in their life , doesn't it all come to the same thing?

so think about it someone who is hachi dan or shodan it is just a difference of lenght in time. But if they both play together, they play the same game (both have one (maybe two) shinai and that's it). It's a fight between two individual whatever the rank.

Even if a beginners only does kakari geiko on a sensei, because that sensei thinks it's the best way for the student to surpass himself, the beginner in question still must fight to a certain level of expectation towards the sensei (must try to surpass these expectations or prejudices), meaning that even thought they are not doing jigeiko it is still a fight! The sensei has to stay aware of what the student is doing. If he doesnt do that and just be a dummy and in a way would lose the fight.

Different challenges for everyone at every stages of our kendo, but it's always kendo whatever rank you are. We always have to fight.

[munenmuso]

In our dojo, no matter if you are a dan holder or not, kendo begins at 4:00 pm every saturday and nobody is treated differently except respects for the seniors resembles hierarchy. Each according to his needs, each according to his abilities.
"Primus inter pares".:)

[Confound]

Ugh. A burgeoning Bakunin. Shall we all read 'the economy of bread'?

c

[munenmuso]

Don't forget the butter. I'm also a hungry despot.

[Atama]

as far as learning the raw bones of kendo that starts when you walk through the door, but i think you only begin to learn the real and apply the real meat of kendo when you hit 3rd dan.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Atama
as far as learning the raw bones of kendo that starts when you walk through the door, but i think you only begin to learn the real and apply the real meat of kendo when you hit 3rd dan.
..........
I would add a few more dan grades to that!

Hyaku

[kendokamax]

at least 11th dan?

[Confound]

There is no 11th dan, you moron. There aren't even any tenth dan practitioners. (are there, Hyaku? My sensei says they're all dead.)

As for the rest, I was talking more about the perception. At least around here, you're not considered a serious student until you have at least sho-dan (more like san dan). As I stated previously, there is a clear difference in treatment.

c

[nodachi]

And kendokamax becomes the master of the missed joke...

("aaaaawwwwww..." says the crowd)

It appears that we are very serious today...

[David J]

Originally posted by Confound
Kendou really begins after sho-dan. Discuss.


For me, Kendo begins at 7pm on a Thursday ;)

More seriously, I think serious Kendo begins whenever you get serious about it. There's always so much more to learn that you've never really "made it" (well, maybe at 8th Dan). Our 6th (going on 7th) Dan Sensei has said that after 25 years of practice, he's now seeing what Kendo is really about. Maybe he also thought that at 1st Dan, 3rd Dan etc etc? Maybe at each of these steps people think "Aha! Know I see what Kendo is about, now it begins!",then they continue to learn more.

Perhaps you are talking about the way Dan graded Kendoka are treated in Japan. I have to concur with munenmuso with respect to our dojo at least - I dont see much division between 4th dan and rookie, except in skill.


Originally posted by Confound
no one fails their sho-dan.


In Japan I presume? I think you could easily find a few UK Kendoka who've failed theirs.....

<rei>

Dave

[kendokamax]

geez I hope she was kidding,

in japan people fail shodan quite often I heard

[Confound]

Note to self:
Work harder on "the flame of no flame"

[Matthew Lagden]

i feel that now after 14 or 15 months of kendo practise i am really beginning to learn kendo.

this is an illusion of course.

[stk]

I feel that after 2.5 years I'm really beginning to realise just how much I suck at kendo.... :confused:

[munenmuso]

Well it's also a matter of paradigm shifting. Ask a thousand people and get a thousand different answers. Location and culture sometimes dictates what kind of kendo experience you'll gonna get. It might be even personal so to speak, that to an individual kendo begins at 8th dan.It really depends on how honest your experience is to you. I just saw NGC Kendo's Gruelling Challenge last night and this 78years old 7th dan's lifelong mission is to pass the 8th dan exam and I assume that for him, despite being a 7th dan holder, kendo is just beginning for him.He was like a beginner when he was asking for an advice with an 80 year old hachidan and isn't it ironic to see a masterswordsman like him to hear him ask questions as if its his first time to hold a sword. It must be liberating to achieve such goals.

[James]

Originally posted by David J

I think serious Kendo begins whenever you get serious about it

Agreed,
gradings are useful for various good reasons, but they are only a snapshot of one days (two minute) performance in your kendo life.

You don't suddenly get enlightened and realise you have to work harder or realise that you really know nothing when you reach the next dan grading (although you do take on more responsibility, and it can seem an emotional watershed of some kind, pass or fail).

Hopefully your moments of enlightenment and how you should be changing your kendo happen a lot more frequently than that, like at most training sessions.

Talking about when 'real' kendo starts seems odd, kendo isn't a real thing, it's a pretty artificial activity in every respect.

[kendokamax]

Originally posted by James

Talking about when 'real' kendo starts seems odd, kendo isn't a real thing, it's a pretty artificial activity in every respect.

Hahahhaha I agree

[Nishi]

Sombody once told me that when a kendoka starts to understand the basics, he/she is ready for shodan....and when that shodan realizes how long those basics will take to understand, then he/she is ready for nidan.

[Steve]

There is a clear distinction on the treatment of kendoka who have a Dan level vs those who do not. Expectations are lower for Kyu levels vs Dan, and people are treated accordingly.

Different ranks mean very different things in different dojo's. Some impose additional time requirements to those of the AJKF for when a student may test for a rank, some do not.

Here in Canada i think its pretty safe to say you are a beginner until you reach 3rd Dan, at which point you are considered to have a "firm grasp on the basics".

I don't believe that a rank can be associated with when Kendo begins. Kendo begins when you actively choose to comply with the purpose and concept of Kendo defined by the AJKF. Depending on the person, that could be any rank.

[Aoi]

Going into shodan is like graduation from university and getting into the work force... well, so I think. You learn alot, experience alot, get the basics of the basics of things in kyu-grades, but the learning process begins once again when you're up in the dan grades in a different form. The road is wide, spreading to all directions, and it is long, VERY long. Open roads of different styles and mentalities, which only yourself can decide on.
In a way, it is true that the real "test" of your kendo starts at shodan. What you have learnt must be put into test, see how it can be applied. People start treating your differently in certain senses. You have to start thinking for yourself what you want to do, how to do it, where to do it and what the effects will be on yourself and your kendo.
Most Japanese Children get their shodan at around 15-16 (youngest I heard was 13... mega good kid apparently). The "age-factor" in Japanese kendo is pretty big - in other words, older the easier to get shodan.
Don't really think anybody can decide where "Real kendo" starts.
A start begins where ever you decide to start, and a goal is where ever you set your goal.

[scbang]

Age definitely plays as maturity counts. And YES, the rank definitely counts and Yes we're supposed to treat each rank differently by definition. In a tournament, you need to have a Kiai, a correct form, a correct Strike and Janshin to get a point. Now, these are a lot to ask from Kyu or even from Shodan. If Ikkuy and Sandan would have a Aiuchi ( Mutual strike ) with equal everything, I'd give a point for Ikkyu person because that probably is a very good point for him at his level. That same hit may not be a good enough one for Sandan. So it goes.

As for the original discussion of when the real Kendo starts, I think it depends on how you think that day. There was a day I felt like I finally mastered how to hit men when I was YonKyu.
My master Nana Dan told me he's still trying to figure out how to hit a good Men. Go figure.. Just from whatching from the side line, I think Yon Dan is a good start. Most of Go Dan guys are really good technically so maybe that's a good starting point.

SC

[Ome Jan]

Reading all the messages on this gradings forum, I could not resist thinking about education. When someone says: life starts at 12 and another says: no, sorry, life starts at 40; they both are right and they both are wrong. The only fact they have in common is that they are alive and kicking.

[Danny Boy]

http://www.gakushijuku.fsnet.co.uk/grading_requirements.htm

nuff said