Sune-ate (shin)

[mingshi]

Why can't we wack our opponent's legs too?

What would happen if the target Sune-ate is introduced to Kendo?

Sune is a target area for Naginata... But when in a Naginata vs Kendo match, Sune-ate is used in both sides... why?

[Keith Hong]

Just what I read once...
The four targets(men, kote, do, ago) in kendo were chosen as they were the most basic and difficult areas to strike.
As a senior at my dojo told me, with swords of comparable lengths(regulation-length shinais), the leaning forward that would result from trying to strike the opponent's legs or shins would open open your men for an easy strike. You would need a longer weapon(naginata!) or an extra-low posture to make the attack feasible.
Then again, just what I heard.

[Tato]

Now, if you do shiai against naginata and you've never practiced Sune-ate cuts, how do you do?

It's a big disadvantage!!

Every Kendo club should have a couple of naginata practiciners, so the rest can train on that!!! :D

More seriously, how is the sune-ate cut whit a Shinai?

Rei

[stk]

Originally posted by Tato

More seriously, how is the sune-ate cut whit a Shinai?


I have to admit I'm curious about this as well.. would that count as an ippon in shiai?

[alexpollijr]

In fact , in the years that succeeded the 'rebirth' of kendo after WW2 it was a common practice to hit migi do by crouching, like sonkyo, to dodge the incoming strike.

Maybe hitting the shin could feature a similar crouching movement, who knows. I never saw any naginata match.

[hamish]

Otherwise known as orishiki waza, and I've seen some people using it now and then. Probably the best option for striking sune.

The way I've seen it used is not in the manner of nuki waza to avoid an incoming strike, but more for surprise in the style of katsugi waza.

Hamish

[KhawMengLee]

Does this strike count in shiai? If so it would make an intresting instruction for the next issue.

[Confound]

We have armour to protect the strike current striking points. If sune-ate were introduced, would it not also require another piece of protective gear? Not being knowledgable about naginata, I wonder if an extra piece is used by naginata practitioners?

Bruises are one thing, but a fracture is another.

c

[alexpollijr]

This shin guard is what Mingshi referred to as 'Sune-ate'. I'ts a hard shell made of plastic or the likes of it, apparently.

[etherknot]

Originally posted by mingshi

What would happen if the target Sune-ate is introduced to Kendo?


That would be spiffy! Weird to hit but I'm sure it could be done... like a really low do cut.



Sune is a target area for Naginata... But when in a Naginata vs Kendo match, Sune-ate is used in both sides... why?

I think there could be a few reasons:
1. Obviously the kendoka would like to have his shins protected. We can all agree on this :)
2. It's just part of the naginata gear set. I'm sure if there was a lack of sune-ate around the naginata user would give them up for the kenoka to use.
3. Maybe its a formality.
4. Maybe we just like to make iai practicioners envious of luxury like knee pads? :D Yes I'm sure thats' it!

I looked through my copy of Illustrated Naginata but found out that my last few pages in chapter 3 regarding matches and rules weren't copied. So we'll either have to wait for someone else to shed some light on this or I'll ask on wednesday.

And for those of you who can not yet attack sune, I've started learning furiage-sune, mochikae-sune and it's great :D What a lovely target :D

[cklin]

I think the sune-ate are made of the same material as kote, but with staves of plastic (originally, bamboo perhaps) stitched vertically around the shins. The entire piece is tied at the calf.

I've tried playing shinai vs naginata a few times. Boy is it hard!

To respond to mingshi's original question -- what would be the zanshin from a sune strike? For the most part, all current kendo waza have some sort of zanshin that will allow you to follow up w/ another attack. Maybe I'm just not imaginative enough, but I can't see how a strike that low wouldn't just stop your motion (short of rolling around).

[cklin]

Hrm.. nevermind. After thinking about it some more, you could hit sune w/ an appropriate zanshin -- kind of like hitting a really low gyaku dou. Except you gotta make sure to get the hell out Real Fast.

[munenmuso]

Sune-ate in kendo? Those who want additional injuries on their legs please raise your hands. And those who want to preserve the quality of their walking postures, please raise your legs. :)

No seriously, I think the momentum of a shinai striking your leg is stronger than the momentum of a naginata. Imagine if we will incorporate it as another legitimate target in kendo, the risk of injury will increase considering the miscalculated strikes that may be committed while attacking the shin with the shinai. Is this correct or it's just me?

[kendokamax]

I think it would be kinda dangerous ya

Imagive when you are not too used to hit that target and you get to low to slowly and at the same time get hit on men uchi........ouch!!!!!!!!!!! also hiting the legs like dou uchi would hurt .....imagine a hit on the knee!!

[gill]

Originally posted by kendokamax
.....imagine a hit on the knee!!

Having recently taken up Naginata, I have to add that the whacks around the ankles are pretty painful too!!!!

Ethernot, can you give me some details about 'Illustrated Naginata' - for example the publisher? I am having difficulty finding books on naginata?

(apologies for rambling further into naginata on the kendo forum......)

:D Gill

[etherknot]

Originally posted by gill


Having recently taken up Naginata,


Great! Naginata @ the Tyneside :)



Ethernot, can you give me some details about 'Illustrated Naginata' - for example the publisher? I am having difficulty finding books on naginata?

(apologies for rambling further into naginata on the kendo forum......)

:D Gill

The book is actually titled: "Look=Learn=Teach: Illustrated Naginata". And comes to us from the All Japan Naginata Federation (in English too!).
You can buy one from the South California Naginata Federation by going to: http://www.scnf.org/video.html or you can let me know if that's too much for shipping to Newcastle. I might be swayed into scanning you parts that intrest you.

It's not a bad book. Of course nothing compares with having someone there to correct you...

And so what, forums are forums are forums. I guess. :) It's not like the naginata forums are getting too much action. But I suppose maybe this whole thread could be relocated...

[saki_wooah]

Hmmmm how could you have your back straight for the rest of the practice when you were hit bad sune-ate cut? How could you do a proper zanshin on Men without your back straight? I don't really know, but man... it would hurt!
I agree with Keith Hong thata Naginata is a more proper weapon to do sune-ate than a shinai.

[mingshi]

Ah, for those of you who don't know... I'm talking about wacking shins with the protectors used in Naginata...

Seems like on every Kendo vs Naginata match, our sword is in total disadvantage. Not because Naginata have a longer reach and all that... But because Kendoka cannot cope with cuts coming from below!! It's like "ouch ouch, what should I do!! That person keep coming for my legs what should I do??" Panic panic.

On the other hand Kendoka do not know how to perform a Sune-ate cut!! "Oh yeah I can wack your legs too...but how??" You'll be afraid to miss the cuts and ended up cutting your opponent on their knees, ankles or toes. Panic panic.

It's definately valid for a Kendo player to cut Sune-ate against a Naginata player, as both sides wears the Sune-ate protectors.

And I've seen Kenjutsu Kata that goes on knees (Tachi vs Kodachi), so wacking legs should be okay for a real sword. Naginata is a more proper weapon? Hmmm... "You should not have a favourite weapon."

Therefore I wonder if it is possible to have 2 Kendoka fighting with shin pads on...?

[Tato]

I absolutly agree with Minghsi. If both players in a Kendo vs Naginata shiai wears Sune-ate protectors, then Sune-ate is a valid target for cuts, then it's necesary to know how to properly cut there.

For the Naginata guys/galls it's "easy", it's one of their regular target, but us, the kendo player, we're not prepared for those.

Besides, I'm just a beginer, but I think that variety it's important (and fun). If I can I would like to play vs naginanta, and play and learn Nito and Jodan (In a future).

Just one coment, if we where using real swords in real combat we'll target whatever part of the oponent that we can whitout exposing one of ours... I'm really happy about kendo limits.

Rei

[Confound]

In the only shinai vs naginata match I've ever seen, the problem was adequately dealt with by stepping on the naginata and holding it down for long enough to strike. looked devlishly hard, and more like dumb luck than a planned strategy.

c

[Tato]

Stepping? Means that the kendo player bloked the naginata whit is foot? whaow! :eek:

Whitout doing hansoku? (In kendo you can't grabe the other's blade)

Rei

[Confound]

No idea. At the time I wasn't overly literate in kendou, and i'm still ignorant of naginata. It was in the first month or so of my stay in Japan. I could ask someone with a better memory, but I doubt they'd remember either.

c

[mingshi]

As far as I can recall, a Kendo player can apply any sword techniques against a Naginata player.

... Apart from the Nuki waza against Sune attacks, which seems very much like a standing flamingo to me :p

[John W]

If sune ever becomes a target in kendo I want an extra long shinai otherwise my head is going to be very sore!

[Atama]

striking the sune in kendo would certainly make things interesting ....however I have always been told that posture is of upmost importance in kendo. For some one to strike the sune with a shinai their posture would totally break and they could be easily knocked on their ass...or if you wanna think real if you tried that with shinken your head would be rolling.

It would be fun to see someone try it though.




Lisa

[KhawMengLee]

Different weapons have their advantages. A spear or naginata has the reach advantage. Plus because of that the legs are another good target and with the weapon's length one can hit sune from a standing position.

But a shinai has its advantages too, from two feet into issoku-itto no maai the naginata is too long to strike effectively but the shinai is in the right place.

MENG

[lewis]

Sune-ate is a valid strike for any weapon in chanbara. If you are going sword on sword, though, you are totally open for a men unless you time it right. Also, to get good distance with a sword you have to drop down into a deep lunge, which takes a long time to get back out of if you don't get the point. Generally, the longer the weapon, the more attractive the sune-ate target is. And if the opponent retreats, you're in gedan, ready to go.

I would be reluctant to practice it with a shinai though. If someone mis-timed it and hit the outside of your knee in the middle of the shinai (rather than the striking area), you could really be in trouble. It's bad enough with do and tsuki bruises. Although, it may be as effective as tsuki against all those 'leaping-men-cuts-from-a-mile-away' I keep seeing. You could essentially sweep them right onto their backs.

[ben]

Definitely interesting question Mingshi. I think Lewis' reply above sums up the difficulties of using the sword to cut the legs.

In koryu, cuts to the legs were practised because it was necessary to train for every eventuality. Personally in kendo I think a sune attack would be ungainly and leave one very open to men. However OTOH we've all learned to cope with moving in okuriashi as if it were 'natural' so I suppose one could perfect a kneeling cut a la nanhonme given time and perseverance.

The only time I fought naginata I found it disorienting, not to say annoying, that my opponent kept hitting my sune with the handle (tsuka? sorry don't know the name) of his naginata. Is that a scoring attack? Kind of strange if it is because it is necessarily a hit, not a cut, and wearing sune-ate it's not at all disabling.

Go the stomp I say!

b

[Ares2907]

I used to do a bit of kendo vs naginata every now and again when I was living in Sydney a few years back. Found it very tough; physically very demanding and mentally taxing until one starts learning a few tricks et al.
One of the big advantages is that it quickly teaches you the importance of ma(w)ai. If you can get past the kamae you definately have the advantage, however given that they can move their hands along the haft to adapt their kamae to the change in ma(w)ai, it's much easier said than done.
They guy I mostly went up against was 5th dan in naginata and kendo, so mostly I got my arse kicked, but it was a lot of fun. I recommend it highly to anyone that gets the chance to do it.

**tip for avoiding sune, bend your lower leg back, rather than lifting it. it ensures that not only is the target out of the way, but also that your foot does not exchange places with the target.

[2muchryt]

i had to do a kendo vs naginata demo match with
3 shimpan at a tournament once. (i was kendo)
i got lucky and won.
one of the things i did was in tzubazerai (sp?)
i hit sune and yelled "sune" loudly.
this was more funny than anything,
but the naginataka was so shocked
(or maybe he was just laughing)
that it gave me a chance a to hit his men.
the timing was like a gyaku-do, men waza.