holy cow, now they are saying Samurai actually from Korea? [Archive] - Page 2

mero

14th May 2005, 01:52 AM

You really suck at logical reasoning. I haven't seen that kind of tripping over assumptions and strawman arguements since reading undergrad C papers. All Bullet is saying is that describing Wako as chinese pillaging their own is like describing Iraq war as hispanics invading iraq. You absolutely ignored the logic of this simple analogy and blabbed about things no one is arguing about.

Ain't no one arguing Wko aren't an organization.
Ain't no one arguing Wako isn't just a general term for Pirates.
Ain't no one arguing there weren't Chinese Wako and Japanese Wako and mixed.
Ain't no one arguing piracy doesn't know borders.
Ain't no one arguing it's not all about money.
Ain't no one arguing Chinese and Japanese didn't pillage and steel from China.
Ain't no one arguing China didn't band all foreign trade at that time so freelancers took it upon themselves to brake that law, Japanese and Chinese, and commit piracy.
ect..
ect..

What people are arguring is that you blatantly described the Wako piracy of Korea and China throughout history long before and after 16th century btw as Chinese pillaging their own country totally whitewashing, undermining and misleading the truth which historically explains Japan's hairy relations with all its neighbors.

Why don't you just own up to your original foot-in-the-mouth misstatement and stop with ridiculous arguments.

[/QUOTE]I tried to take myself out of this ridiculous arguement, but you had to pull me back in.
Wako aren't an organization. There are many groups. But Wako is just a general term for Pirates. There were Chinese Wako and Japanese Wako and mixed. Piracy knows no borders. It's all about money. Where was the money at that time? China. Chinese and Japanese pillaged and stole from China. I'm not trying to defend what Japanese or Chinese Wako did to China. I'm just stating the way things were. China had band all foreign trade at that time so freelancers took it upon themselves to brake that law, Japanese and Chinese, and commit piracy.

Governments didn't run the Wako, if thats what you're thinking. The Japanese government wasn't taking a cut. And if you say they were I'd like to see your proof. There were regional warlords, but no central government running or making money directly from these Wako. In fact Ashikaga Yoshimitsu took many steps to stop Japanese Wako.

The US invasion of Iraq is a totally different story. The US government sent in troops(are doing a fine job I might add) and liberated a country under a dictator. And I think you have us Americans all wrong. We have Latin Americans, Whites people, Asians, and many more, but we are all Americans.[/QUOTE]

Akai Bushi

14th May 2005, 06:24 AM

So basically your emotionally hurt that I would mention Chinese Wako raiding China. That infact it is true that it happened, but since Japanese did far worse things, that me mentioning these Chinese Wako is hurtful and takes away from the sin of the Japanese piracy. I admit Japanese Wako did really bad things. But I won't admit that there weren't Chinese Wako. Which now you're saying I don't have to, but I should stop talking about Chinese Wako because it takes the spotlight off of Japanese Wako. Ok I understand. I think that is incredibly weak, but ok.
***
Wako is a term applied by Chinese to pirates raiding China's coastline during the 14th through the 16th centuries. So i guess that doesn't include English pirates, so you are right there.
But Bullet was arguing that Wako were under the control of some Japanese government authority, by the kind of connection he was making. I guess that would be a Strawman fallacy me attacking his incorrect statement and not consentration of defending Japanese innocense throughout history. Which they aren't and which no one is. Sorry to take the spotlight off Japanese sin and step on so many weak toes.

"it's not who's in that organization. it's who owns that organization. if japanese owns, and leads the Wako, it's japanese organization. if it was chinese owned and operated, it's chinese."

He is basically stating that the Japanese government was incharge of the Chinese Wako based on his analogy conserning the US invasion of Iraq. But it wasn't the Japanese government who was incharge they were actually trying to stop it during the Ashikaga period. So his assumption that it's a completely Japanese government runned organization is false. As well, based on what my assummed logic was, he was implying through his analogy, that I was saying Japanese Wako never raided China, which is completely twisiting my words. I have never stated Japanese Wako didn't raid China. I just was stating that Chinese Wako did the same thing. So his analogy is based on nothing.

ky0zero

18th May 2005, 03:38 PM

Out of these wako/pirates, did the Japanese pirates use any sword form/style/kenjutsu that was unique to their group of bandits? I ask because a number of the chinese pirates used Hung or Lau sword forms, and just curious whether the japanese pirates would follow any style. :)

bullet08

18th May 2005, 11:35 PM

倭寇-Wako

this is the chinese character for wako. this breaks down to dwarf bandit or something like that. the term wa or in korean pronounciation wae is used to discribe japanese for longest time.

the term describes 'japanese' pirates.

did it include koreans and chinese later on? yes, but the term still describes japanese pirates. is it spliting hair? yes! but the words still describes what they were and it defines japanese pirates.

pete

mad_god

26th May 2005, 03:40 PM

"The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......

http://www.hdgumdo.com/

under intro > President Greetings>

Can someone tell me why the character "侍" is "samurai" and not "ji"?
What does "Samurang" mean in Korean?
What's the origin of the word "samurai"?

MAD GOD

TKO

26th May 2005, 11:56 PM

Can someone tell me why the character "侍" is "samurai" and not "ji"?
What does "Samurang" mean in Korean?
What's the origin of the word "samurai"?

MAD GOD

Samurai is Japanese pronunciation

Ji is Japanese’s way of pronounce Chinese word "侍"

In most case, almost of all Kanji have 2 or more pronunciation.

The character "侍" is origin from China of cause! but the word "Samurai" is homemade from Japan.

"Samurang"--I have no idea and non of my Korean friends heard about it.

BUT, according to http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com

"Samurang is one of fabrications by Haidong Gumdo, who says it was a name for Goguryeo (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Goguryeo)

According to Haidong Gumdo, a master called Seolbong (Sul Bong; 雪峰) taught Haidong Gumdo in the Changbai Mountains

The Changbai (Changbaek) Mountains or Changbaishan are a mountain range on the border between China and North Korea. "

KenShi_JoB

27th May 2005, 05:57 AM

Samurai is Japanese pronunciation

Ji is Japanese’s way of pronounce Chinese word "侍"

In most case, almost of all Kanji have 2 or more pronunciation.

The character "侍" is origin from China of cause! but the word "Samurai" is homemade from Japan.

"Samurang"--I have no idea and non of my Korean friends heard about it.

BUT, according to http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/)

"Samurang is one of fabrications by Haidong Gumdo, who says it was a name for Goguryeo (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Goguryeo)

According to Haidong Gumdo, a master called Seolbong (Sul Bong; 雪峰) taught Haidong Gumdo in the Changbai Mountains

The Changbai (Changbaek) Mountains or Changbaishan are a mountain range on the border between China and North Korea. "

555 That's funny.

mad_god

27th May 2005, 10:46 AM

Samurai is Japanese pronunciation

Ji is Japanese’s way of pronounce Chinese word "侍"

In most case, almost of all Kanji have 2 or more pronunciation.

The character "侍" is origin from China of cause! but the word "Samurai" is homemade from Japan.

From the dictionary,
侍する (jisuru) = serve, wait upon, attend
I can understand why the Chinese character "侍" is used to describe it.
But what I would like to know is from where the original pronounciation "samurai" came from.
Who did create this expression?

MG

mad_god

27th May 2005, 11:01 AM

From the dictionary,
侍する (jisuru) = serve, wait upon, attend
I can understand why the Chinese character "侍" is used to describe it.
But what I would like to know is from where the original pronounciation "samurai" came from.
Who did create this expression?

MG

For example, according to a dictionary, the word "sakura" (cherry tree) has its origin from "咲く"(bloom, blossom) + suffix "ら" and became "桜".

MG

mero

28th May 2005, 02:56 AM

Good grief. Her we go again.

Aint no one here EVER argued that there weren't CHinese among Wako!

You're the ONLY person who seems to be disingenuously confused on this issue. Why don't you take your foot out of your mouth and thumb out your backpeddling a$$.

And stop lying about what Bullet said to cover your gaffs. Give me a break.

So basically your emotionally hurt that I would mention Chinese Wako raiding China. That infact it is true that it happened, but since Japanese did far worse things, that me mentioning these Chinese Wako is hurtful and takes away from the sin of the Japanese piracy. I admit Japanese Wako did really bad things. But I won't admit that there weren't Chinese Wako. Which now you're saying I don't have to, but I should stop talking about Chinese Wako because it takes the spotlight off of Japanese Wako. Ok I understand. I think that is incredibly weak, but ok.
***
Wako is a term applied by Chinese to pirates raiding China's coastline during the 14th through the 16th centuries. So i guess that doesn't include English pirates, so you are right there.
But Bullet was arguing that Wako were under the control of some Japanese government authority, by the kind of connection he was making. I guess that would be a Strawman fallacy me attacking his incorrect statement and not consentration of defending Japanese innocense throughout history. Which they aren't and which no one is. Sorry to take the spotlight off Japanese sin and step on so many weak toes.

"it's not who's in that organization. it's who owns that organization. if japanese owns, and leads the Wako, it's japanese organization. if it was chinese owned and operated, it's chinese."

He is basically stating that the Japanese government was incharge of the Chinese Wako based on his analogy conserning the US invasion of Iraq. But it wasn't the Japanese government who was incharge they were actually trying to stop it during the Ashikaga period. So his assumption that it's a completely Japanese government runned organization is false. As well, based on what my assummed logic was, he was implying through his analogy, that I was saying Japanese Wako never raided China, which is completely twisiting my words. I have never stated Japanese Wako didn't raid China. I just was stating that Chinese Wako did the same thing. So his analogy is based on nothing.

mad_god

28th May 2005, 10:16 AM

For example, according to a dictionary, the word "sakura" (cherry tree) has its origin from "咲く"(bloom, blossom) + suffix "ら" and became "桜".

MG

"sakura" (cherry tree) = "咲く" saku (bloom, blossom) + suffix "ら" ra = saku + ra.

MG

coreanbear

21st May 2006, 04:12 AM

Mad_God, are you the guy that runs the geocities site http://www.geocities.com/neue_strassenbahn? Also, are you Japanese?

I studied East Asian Politics and History and want to tell you and everyone else here that ALL COUNTRIES from times past to today, and in the future all practice propaganda. Some are better than others. That being said, if you want to be respected, don't be an ass about it. Some of your content titles is very offending, not only to me, but to my Japanese friends as well.

First thing to address is language history. If you go to a reputable language institute, almost 95% agree that Japanese language is a conglomerate of various languages. The origins all came from China. thousands of years ago, Koreans (not officially known as Koreans back then) used the Chinese traditional language that eventually overtime became modified. Even to this day you can read Chinese in Korean newspapers. Japan also uses Kanji or modified Chinese characters in their language, similar to the Koreans. Therefore, it is NOT absurb to see similarities or at the very least similar words in all thress languages. I have Chinese, Japanese, and Korean friends all in the same circle who commment OFTEN how they can actually understand each other at times due to using similar words. So, it is not absurb to deduce that "Samurai" may have come from "Ssaulabi."

Second thing to address is the history of the people and culture. Korean culture is well-documented (not only by Korean historians), but other country scientists and historians that the culture is over 4,000 years old. Also, it was the first to be discovered by the Chinese and Mongols where there are physical similarities that the Koreans share from both cultures. There may have been people there before, but that is a another discussion. It is not inconceivable that the original Japanese, which scientifically is a mixture of several peoples (most notably Jomon and Yayoi) originally migrated from the mainland.

The main point to this whole thing is that you argue points with fervor without acknowledging the DNA studies, linguistics studies in the past several years. There have been many findings. So, what you say on your website (if it is indeed you) needs to be modified. Don't be an ass and modify your title from "Korea, the Preposterous World" to something more decent.

BTW, I studied Kendo for seven years. I love Akira Kurosawa films and Anime. The guy is a genius. I love reading about Japanese history, but I also loved reading about Korean history as well as Chinese. Each is unique in their own right, but all three are tied together for better or worse. As I mentioned earlier, I have good friends from Japan, China, and Korea and we all hate haters like you. You don't make a better world by being an ass. Grow up.

coreanbear

21st May 2006, 04:27 AM

Lucien, I agree with you. I also study East Asian History and Politics. Japan was heavily influenced by Koreans many years ago. There are people here that till have not grown up yet and decide to be offensive in their comments rather than make a valid point. My ultimate point is that all three cultures are tied together for better or worse. Yes, we probably all came from China (speaking within the past five thousand years), but some cultures want to deny it. Japan has been denying it for years even though there is scientific evidence by Japanese scholars that there is heavy evidence that Koreans were part of the original mix of the Japanese people. When cultures collide either through war or migration, cultures eventually get mixed up where cultures adopt or suppress things from other cultures. Hitler hated one culture and decided to try to eradicate that culture from the face of the earth. Others adopt some cultural aspects. I know Koreans have adopted many things from the Chinese culture from thousand of years past including the language which is why they till use Hanja and it is still taught in the schools today. Anyways, Mad_dog needs to be a little less mad and be a bit more mature in what he/she says. I also lived in Japan and Korea for the past five years. I learned kendo/kundo and it's fantastic. I heard both sides of the story and the final argument will go to the historians/archaeologists/scientists when they hopefully can finally end the argument and all the speculation. BTW, it was also recently discovered on Chinese soil no less the old Goryo palace. Unfortunately, the Chinese communist scientists have taken control and are building their propaganda machine up to taint that historical find as well.

Final note, "ALL COUNTRIES PRACTICE REVISIONIST HISTORY."

The CoreanBear

Paikea

21st May 2006, 05:02 AM

Mad-god was banned, and this distasteful thread has been dead for almost a year.

GreenArrow

21st May 2006, 06:50 AM

When I was a kid with a funny non-English name getting ragged at school, I asked my father where we were from. This was his reply:

"It's not where you're from that matters in life.

It's where you're going and what you do with your life... that's what's important."

'Nuff said.

bullet08

23rd May 2006, 01:28 AM

written language in korea is actually not derived from chinese, but invented by one of our very bored king. he decided that since general public was just too dumb to understand or read chinese, it would be nice to have our own language that could educate general public. however, chinese is still considered 'learned' language and still is in use.

from the talk with few japanese folks, japanese language is rather similar situation, but haragana and katakana (?) was derived from chinese to help monks who could not read chinese to at least recite the sutra with phonic symbols. unlike in korea, chinese character is firmly intergrated into japanese language and is still being used heavily in their publications.

pete

Nochi-no-tsuki

23rd May 2006, 01:54 AM

"samurang" came to Japan from Korea all those years ago so now all samurai are Korean? That's like saying since all those American Revolutionary war fighters came here from Britain, the American Army is technically British. Enough said.

Obukan_dude

23rd May 2006, 02:07 AM

Mad-god was banned, and this distasteful thread has been dead for almost a year.

Happy anniversery, Hateful Thread!

Obukan_dude

23rd May 2006, 02:08 AM

bullet08

23rd May 2006, 02:34 AM

Niten Ninja

23rd May 2006, 04:07 AM

The first page of this thread explains it pretty much. This thread would have been a lot better if it were a argument over something more worthwhile. Arguing over the origin of an MA is one thing but arguing over the origin of a fairly pointless social class in such a passionate way is just silly.

Dragon Ninja

13th August 2006, 01:25 AM

"The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......

http://www.hdgumdo.com/

under intro > President Greetings>

the samurai are not from Korea.

Samurai originated from Japan after the Heian period.

we all know this.

what makes the samurai distinct from other warrior classes are the philosophical teachings of Budo.

Ignatz

13th August 2006, 06:56 AM

the samurai are not from Korea.

Samurai originated from Japan after the Heian period.

we all know this.

what makes the samurai distinct from other warrior classes are the philosophical teachings of Budo.
No, samurai originated in Toledo Ohio, also the home of the famous Toledo Mud Hens minor league baseball team.

rottunpunk

14th August 2006, 01:47 AM

wow this thread is old. why do all the history thread date back to ages ago and suddenly get reborn?
didnt know baseball was first played by farmyard animals. :D
:p

KhawMengLee

14th August 2006, 01:56 AM

wow this thread is old. why do all the history thread date back to ages ago and suddenly get reborn?
didnt know baseball was first played by farmyard animals. :D
:p

Damned necromancers...

Dragon Ninja

14th August 2006, 10:07 AM

No, samurai originated in Toledo Ohio, also the home of the famous Toledo Mud Hens minor league baseball team.

hahahaahahaahah

Penguin Rush

14th August 2006, 01:20 PM

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard rumours that Japan claimed to have invented Kimchi and Dang Jang. Both are Korean dishes with distinct Korean flavor, so that would be a lot worse than claiming to have started the samurai. Samurai is nothing more than a warrior with a sword that followed a code of honor. People all the way in Europe had nearly the samething.

Kenzan

14th August 2006, 01:36 PM

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard rumours that Japan claimed to have invented Kimchi and Dang Jang. Both are Korean dishes with distinct Korean flavor, so that would be a lot worse than claiming to have started the samurai. People all the way in Europe had nearly the samething.

Rumors can lead down disasterous roads my friend.

Samurai is nothing more than a warrior with a sword that followed a code of honor.

I mean this in a most humble way:
It will serve you well to read at few good history books on the subject.
Primarily, Bushido was a code invented during the Edo period, and it was the era of peace during this time that allowed the blossoming of many Japanese artforms, including the concept of bushido, and many schools of swordsmanship.
The battle implements of the Samuari traditionally where the bow and the spear. Mainly the bow. In fact, according to historians, the first Samurai were horsemen who could shoot very well.This was a prerequisite for even being considered a Saumarai, who, at the first, were really nothing more than a bunch of brigands, warlords, and murderers. Incidentally, most of the historical battles in Japan were fought for money, territory, resources and power. Honor almost had nothing to do with it, despite what the movies portray.

fifthchamber

14th August 2006, 03:41 PM

And trust me, no one here has claimed Kimchi to be anything other than the best dish to have been made in Korea...
I promise..It ain't thought of as Japanese. Not in Japan. Samurai however...Well..They have the weight of history behind that one..
Regards.

Penguin Rush

14th August 2006, 04:09 PM

Rumors can lead down disasterous roads my friend.
Like I said, it was nothing more than rumor.

I mean this in a most humble way:
It will serve you well to read at few good history books on the subject.
Primarily, Bushido was a code invented during the Edo period, and it was the era of peace during this time that allowed the blossoming of many Japanese artforms, including the concept of bushido, and many schools of swordsmanship.
Ok? I don't know much Japanese history, sorry.

The battle implements of the Samuari traditionally where the bow and the spear. Mainly the bow. In fact, according to historians, the first Samurai were horsemen who could shoot very well.This was a prerequisite for even being considered a Saumarai, who, at the first, were really nothing more than a bunch of brigands, warlords, and murderers.
Then it's much easier to believe that the first samurais were, in fact, from Korea. Korea was well known throughout Asia for their horse archers (they were nomads), and they are considered today to be the top archers in the world. The "Koreans" had amazing horse archers even before there was a Japan, or even a Korea.

Incidentally, most of the historical battles in Japan were fought for money, territory, resources and power. Honor almost had nothing to do with it, despite what the movies portray.
I know that -_-. The samurai just obeys their masters though, isn't that also part of bushido?

Besides all that, isn't a samurai basically a warrior with social status?

bullet08

14th August 2006, 09:37 PM

Besides all that, isn't a samurai basically a warrior with social status?

actually samurais were lost members of x-wing squad from galaxy far far away. one of the members was a jedi, and he tough them how to 'read' the aite during the duel and what not.

pete

Kenzan

14th August 2006, 11:39 PM

Then it's much easier to believe that the first samurais were, in fact, from Korea. Korea was well known throughout Asia for their horse archers (they were nomads), and they are considered today to be the top archers in the world. The "Koreans" had amazing horse archers even before there was a Japan, or even a Korea.

Excluding the indigenous Ainu and other controversial theories of Caucasians inhabiting the island the Japanese people were obviously ethnically of Korean, Chinese and Mongolian lineage. If we follow this reasoning however, we could also very well say that since all humans are originally from Africa, then all Samurai are of African origin.
While the origins of where the Jomon people and previous migrations may have come from are slightly better known than most origins, the concept of Samurai as it is mostly known is well documented as mainly a Japanese concept, though again, the full blown ideal as a statesman warrior popularized by the code of Bushido did not really appear until the mid Edo period.

I know that -_-. The samurai just obeys their masters though, isn't that also part of bushido?

That's part of the ideal, but there's also plenty of examples where this is broken.

Besides all that, isn't a samurai basically a warrior with social status?
[/QUOTE]

Not being a Samurai, I am not qualified to answer that on a personal level, but
I'm certain a Samurai, if the dead could speak, would say it is much more than that. Essentially the Samurai class was the official absolute ruling class at one time in Japan for more than 300 years. I imagine part of the creation of Bushido stemmed from a warrior class that no longer performed the function of engaging in wars.

Ignatz

15th August 2006, 01:13 AM

I know that -_-. The samurai just obeys their masters though, isn't that also part of bushido?
I think that is a popular misconception. It is my understanding that the loyal retainer's job was not to merely obey but rather to insure that the master did not do anything wrong. This meant that if the master wanted the retainer to do something wrong it was the retainers's duty to try to convince the master of the errors of his ways. This, of course, was a delicate matter since outright refusal was not an option. However, the retainer chould offer to commit seppukku to show the master that he was indeed serious. If the master was smart then he would have an epiphany of sorts. If not, oh well, another one bites the dust.

Penguin Rush

15th August 2006, 05:04 AM

Excluding the indigenous Ainu and other controversial theories of Caucasians inhabiting the island the Japanese people were obviously ethnically of Korean, Chinese and Mongolian lineage. If we follow this reasoning however, we could also very well say that since all humans are originally from Africa, then all Samurai are of African origin.
I'm talking about the archers from Korea. If the original Samurai were horse archers, it's easier to believe that they were actually from Korea or Mongolia. I'm not saying they were, but I'm just saying that it's not completely moronic as many people here are saying.

I think that is a popular misconception. It is my understanding that the loyal retainer's job was not to merely obey but rather to insure that the master did not do anything wrong. This meant that if the master wanted the retainer to do something wrong it was the retainers's duty to try to convince the master of the errors of his ways. This, of course, was a delicate matter since outright refusal was not an option. However, the retainer chould offer to commit seppukku to show the master that he was indeed serious. If the master was smart then he would have an epiphany of sorts. If not, oh well, another one bites the dust.

I heard about that before, but I think it was from a movie...

tgsfg

15th August 2006, 05:32 AM

Oops double post!

tgsfg

15th August 2006, 05:32 AM

I'm not saying they were, but I'm just saying that it's not completely moronic as many people here are saying.

I actually spent a lot of time reading through these posts. I have somethings to say myself:

First: Hello, this is my first post. :) Nice to meet you all.

Second: The haedong kumdo organization once claimed that the samurang was the origins of teh Japanese samurai, but what does that mean exactly? The samurai were taught by them? The samurai used them as examples? If samurais did indeed come from Korea, how exactly is the alleged transition? Is it like how kendo was taken to Korea by senseis?

Third: I highly doubt an esteemed warrior class ever existed in Korea. The Hwarang were scholars, not knights, and even they were warriors, they were most likely archers. The last Korean dynasty, the Chosun/Yi, were very focused on the cultural and scholary things. Military was looked down upon. WHen the Japanese invaded Korea in the 1500's (or was it 1400?), Korea did not have a standing army. So a warrior class like the samurai doesnt seem very likely in the Land of the Mourning Calm. I am speaking from a very limited knowledge of it though.

Fourth: I have noticed an amazing bias here. What other outrageous claims have the Koreans made? Are you guys basing this "Korea believe they created everything" ideology based on their belief that they have created things like kendo, samurai, and judo? Because there is very little historical evidence to if Korea really did originally teach Japan her many martial arts, I will not comment. I do agree that modern kendo, judo, aikido, and etc are from Japan. What I DO know, however, is that Korea had used martial arts on the battlefield (like a systemized martial art with techniques and stuff?) before the Japanese. Surviving traditional martial arts of Korea seems to be only Tekkyun and Ssireum (Maybe yulsul, which is kind of like jujuitsu. Uses the same kanji). Korea has been very innovative during the Chosun dynasty, they even created what many believe to be the most impressive written language.

Fifth: Korea is not the only country that is passionate about "proving" something came from their country. I once met Sicilian person at the beach. He claimed that his people were the first to take mussels (spelling check please) and eat them raw at the beach. Italy and China are arguing over who created the first noodle. China says they have created the moveable type print and gun powder. Most of the world still believe that China created gun powder, and most American high school students think that Guttenburg created the first "printer." Both of these were actually invented by the "outrageous" Korean. I don't know about you guys, but I've heard a lot of "We (as in that country) were the first/best to do _____," from a lot of people.

Kenzan

15th August 2006, 05:51 AM

I'm talking about the archers from Korea. If the original Samurai were horse archers, it's easier to believe that they were actually from Korea or Mongolia. I'm not saying they were, but I'm just saying that it's not completely moronic as many people here are saying.

Most archeologists as well as anthropologists would probably agree with the idea that Korean, Chinese, and Mongolian culture has influenced Japanese culture to many important degrees throughout the long history of all these cultures, and to varying degrees at differing times, so did Japanese culture to the former. However, this still is quite a far cry from validation of claiming that the Samurai class exclusively originated in Korea.

A simple example of this is the Classic Mexican Burrito. Great Mexican food, right?
Wrong.
It's an American food based upon Mexican cooking.
Same thing with Pizza, most Chinese Fast food, and California Rolls.
In any event, I would argue that once a person lives in a country and makes it his/her own, whatever they come up with is now part of that culture.

Kenzan

15th August 2006, 05:59 AM

Also,
The original Samurai armor was modeled after Chinese foot soldier armor, and later became Oyori style in the Heian period. We see such transformations as well as in weaponry such as swords. The Japanese sword originally was a double-blades straight sword taken from Chinese influence, and it acquired a curve only much later on to accommodate riders on horseback, and was much longer as well.
Even tactics on the battlefield were originally borrowed from the Chinese.

pgsmith

15th August 2006, 06:27 AM

Japanese history ... The samurai were not originally Korean soldiers, the samurai were originally Japanese farmers. Early Japanese armies consisted of conscripts, based upon the Chinese armies of the time. It wasn't until the 600s to 700s that professional warriors began to develop, and it wasn't until the 900s to 1000s that they began to be a distinct social class. While it is distinctly possible that warriors from Korea were hired at the time of the rise of the warrior class in Japan, it would be much more than merely a stretch to say that the samurai came from Korean warriors.

Karl Friday, professor of Asian History at the University of Georgia, and Menkyo Kaiden in Kashima Shin ryu, has written a couple of very interesting books on the rise of the samurai in early Japan. They are "Hired Swords : The Rise of Private Warrior Power in Early Japan" and "Samurai, Warfare, & the State in Early Medieval Japan".

Very interesting reading if you happen to be a Japanese history buff. Lots of painstaking research with full references. Good stuff!

P.S. Bushido was a term pretty much invented by Nitobe Inazo, a Japanese Quaker who actually spent the majority of his life outside of Japan, in the 19th century. While several different Daimyo wrote out "codes of conduct" for their retainers over the years, and the Tokugawa shogunate did the same, it was more along the lines of what they wished for rather than what actually happened.

xvikingx

15th August 2006, 12:55 PM

Tastes Great!
Less Filling!
Tastes Great!
Less Filling!
Tastes Great!
Less Filling!

tgsfg

15th August 2006, 01:08 PM

Tastes Great!
Less Filling!
Tastes Great!
Less Filling!
Tastes Great!
Less Filling!
That commercial was actually first made in Korea, but because things are more strict there, the commercial was banned for too much exposure. The actresses involved were Lee Hyori and Jeon Ji Hyun (look them up on google/bjunkyard.com).

Ignatz

15th August 2006, 11:21 PM

Google was created in Korea but it turns out that Korea was created in the former Soviet Union.

Kenzan

15th August 2006, 11:32 PM

According to N. Koreans, Kim Jong Il created the world in 7 days, makes he sun shine, and has sparkly rainbows bursting out of his O-ring when he bends over.

A little known fact is that Korea invented the sparkly rainbow O-ring effect, along with air, the sky, the moon and the universe, and yes, people.
Why can't the world just stop all this nonsense about "history" and "science" and just come to realize that Korea is vastly superior in every way and recognize it for it's god-like powers?
:D

bullet08

15th August 2006, 11:50 PM

johnkichu

15th August 2006, 11:57 PM

you forgot to mention on 8th day he created makgullee, po-ju, and dong dong ju.

pete

What is po-ju?

bullet08

16th August 2006, 12:09 AM

What is po-ju?

i think it's same as makgullee, or is it called pok-ju.. been awhile since i had those things.

pete

johnkichu

16th August 2006, 12:54 AM

i think it's same as makgullee, or is it called pok-ju.. been awhile since i had those things.

pete

Sounds good to me. Let's all have some and sing along to Kim Jong Il's "I'm so Lonely" from Team America!

T.Lee

16th August 2006, 03:23 AM

ninja are from korea.

bullet08

16th August 2006, 04:26 AM

ninja are from korea.

actually ninja are other lost members of x-wing squad from galaxy far far away.

pete

Kenzan

16th August 2006, 04:29 AM

actually ninja are other lost members of x-wing squad from galaxy far far away.

pete

Yes, they are called "Jedirang"
:DLOL:D

tgsfg

16th August 2006, 05:50 AM

bullet08

16th August 2006, 11:52 PM

Yes, they are called "Jedirang"
:DLOL:D

hmm.. jedirang would be people like hong gil dong. ask your korean friends who is hong gil dong.. don't ask anyone born after 1986.. they might not know who he is.

pete

johnkichu

17th August 2006, 04:22 AM

hmm.. jedirang would be people like hong gil dong. ask your korean friends who is hong gil dong.. don't ask anyone born after 1986.. they might not know who he is.

pete

Wow - there's a name I haven't heard of in a long time. I used to read that comic strip when I was a little kid. Cha Dol Ba Ui and Ho Pi, also ..., and riding around on a cloud - how cool is that?

Was Hong Gil Dong a real person?

bullet08

17th August 2006, 04:26 AM

Wow - there's a name I haven't heard of in a long time. I used to read that comic strip when I was a little kid. Cha Dol Ba Ui and Ho Pi, also ..., and riding around on a cloud - how cool is that?

Was Hong Gil Dong a real person?

some say he is, some say he isn't. i just found a web site where they track his life. it's rather interesting. nothing like what i heard when i was lil.

pete

johnkichu

17th August 2006, 11:26 AM

some say he is, some say he isn't. i just found a web site where they track his life. it's rather interesting. nothing like what i heard when i was lil.

pete

Please, post the URL the Hong Gil Dong website!

bullet08

17th August 2006, 09:00 PM

Please, post the URL the Hong Gil Dong website!

http://www.jangseong.jeonnam.kr/english-2004/menu3/sub1-1.asp

have a fun :)

pete

Kenzan

18th August 2006, 12:40 AM

hmm.. jedirang would be people like hong gil dong. ask your korean friends who is hong gil dong.. don't ask anyone born after 1986.. they might not know who he is.

pete

Thanks for the link! I though he might have been a male Korean Porn star....
:D

bullet08

18th August 2006, 02:04 AM

Thanks for the link! I though he might have been a male Korean Porn star....
:D

hmm.. when i was living in korea, i didn't know there was such a thing called porn. so, i'm not sure if porn stars in korea actually get the celebrity status they get in US.

pete

Kenzan

18th August 2006, 03:07 AM

hmm.. when i was living in korea, i didn't know there was such a thing called porn. so, i'm not sure if porn stars in korea actually get the celebrity status they get in US.

pete

Hmmm... I didn't realize this guy was a historic Korean legend.
Needs further investigation!
Sorry! All jokes asides, no disrespect was intended! :)

Gessho

19th August 2006, 04:51 AM

Shows how little you know about asian culture and history.

First of all, do, 道, is chinese, period, no one will ever try to say otherwise.

I would say more, but, i don't think you would be able to understand anyways, so i'm not gonna bother.

I dont' think Kendo is Chinese, but, that doesn't mean it doesn't have chinese origins. I suggest you read up on some Chinese philosophy before you reply.

You just confirmed your own point. Yes, that character is Chinese in origin and is pronounced as "dao" whilst in Japan it is pronounced as "do." That said, kendo is purely Japanese in origin whilst sword combat has its' own version in every country in the world.

As far as kumdo goes, Korea was occupied for 30 years by the Japanese who made an effort to superimpose Japanese culture on Korea. Probably as a result of that, some Koreans learned kendo but, wanting to avoid the shame of its connection to Japan, re-made it as their own.

T.Lee

19th August 2006, 05:19 AM

HOLY COW! you IDIOTS are still taking this thread SERIOUSLY????

tgsfg

19th August 2006, 06:08 AM

You just confirmed your own point. Yes, that character is Chinese in origin and is pronounced as "dao" whilst in Japan it is pronounced as "do." That said, kendo is purely Japanese in origin whilst sword combat has its' own version in every country in the world.

As far as kumdo goes, Korea was occupied for 30 years by the Japanese who made an effort to superimpose Japanese culture on Korea. Probably as a result of that, some Koreans learned kendo but, wanting to avoid the shame of its connection to Japan, re-made it as their own.

HOLY COW! you IDIOTS are still taking this thread SERIOUSLY????

1. I thought China pronouced kendo "Jiando" not "jiandao." That's just what I thought, I could be wrong. Besides, using that argument alone, we can conclude that any martial arts ending with "do" is Japanese.
2. I don't get this popular belief about Korea "REMAKING" kendo as their own. Kum means sword in Korea, it wasn't an attempt to change the name and call it their own, kum simply means sword in Korean. It's kind of like how some people describe kendo as "Japanese fencing." It's how the Koreans pronouce kendo. The only thing different is terminology and the addition of the bong gook gum bup. This set of katas is just an addition, and as far as I know, is never used for anything. Not even for te shodan testing I believe. It's more like a sensei's personal prefernce to teach it.
Please do not confuse the WKA's politics with 98% of the Korean kumdo population's belief. My sensei is from USKU (Probably affiliated with WKA) and even he believes this whole "kumdo is from Korea!" nonsense to be stupid and pointless.
3. Why can't they? Let them take anything as seriously as they want. Why would you call them idiots for it?

T.Lee

19th August 2006, 06:13 AM

well clearly i know more about asian history, military and linguistics than you.

tgsfg

19th August 2006, 08:01 AM

well clearly i know more about asian history, military and linguistics than you.

1. Very mature response. I asked you why you would call others (I wasn't even in the debate or whatever until the end) idiots for doing what the thread was made for. You respond with that, very mature.
2. I never stated that I was an expert at any of those, nor have I made arguments relating to any but the history part.
3. Tell me, what is so wrong about my post that you had to respond with a condescending comment.

Paikea

19th August 2006, 08:54 AM

1. Very mature response. I asked you why you would call others (I wasn't even in the debate or whatever until the end) idiots for doing what the thread was made for. You respond with that, very mature.
2. I never stated that I was an expert at any of those, nor have I made arguments relating to any but the history part.
3. Tell me, what is so wrong about my post that you had to respond with a condescending comment.Man...tgsfg, you've come in here acting like a bull in a china shop. You don't spend a whole lot of time reading posts from people who've been here for years, and yet demand value judgements and spout sass up the wazoo.

Mellow out, read a lot more, posture a little less and maybe people will start to pay attention...

tgsfg

19th August 2006, 09:14 AM

Man...tgsfg, you've come in here acting like a bull in a china shop. You don't spend a whole lot of time reading posts from people who've been here for years, and yet demand value judgements and spout sass up the wazoo.

Mellow out, read a lot more, posture a little less and maybe people will start to pay attention...

1. A bull in a china shop?
2. I'm sorry, was there any excuse to call others idiots for debating or taking a thread seriously? If there is one, I will apologize, seriously, no sarcasm.
3. I didn't demand anything. All I did was give my opinions, and why I believed in whatever I said.
4. If you want, tell me what is so wrong about my posts?

Penguin Rush

19th August 2006, 09:22 AM

HOLY COW! you IDIOTS are still taking this thread SERIOUSLY????
KW Forum:
Every thread is to die out when a member (often a veteren) starts to cry and call it stupid.

Logical thinking:
If one doesn't like a certain thread, he/she can ignore/avoid it. If he/she decide they don't like something being said in the thread, he/she can enter and voice their opinion.

KW Thinking:
If one doesn't like a thread, call everyone in it stupid and leave negative reps to people inside. Then call in the old members to call these people stupid together.

Penguin Rush

19th August 2006, 09:22 AM

double post

Ignatz

19th August 2006, 01:57 PM

tgsfg

19th August 2006, 02:57 PM

I understand that the bull in the china shop was first created in Korea. However, the Chinese created sarcasm (although there are some that claim the the Koreans created China) I don't know where idiots were created.
Nobody created Ireland, is always was and always will be.:evolved:

The Koreans claim that the idiots were created in Japan, though they also say Japan was created by Koreans.

I thought Ireland was created by England? [/joke just in case someone takes offense]

T.Lee

19th August 2006, 04:12 PM

oh i get it now....

i need to write [/joke in case someone takes offense] after each reply for noobs to get a clue.

T.Lee

19th August 2006, 04:13 PM

grrr..... damn double posting.

bobdonny

19th August 2006, 06:03 PM

Nobody created Ireland, is always was and always will be.:evolved:
One word for you. Leprechaun's :wink:

@TGSFG: If you expect people to take offense and post a disclaimer, then you intend to offend.

Twat!

tgsfg

20th August 2006, 02:18 AM

oh i get it now....

i need to write [/joke in case someone takes offense] after each reply for noobs to get a clue.

Oh I see, so the whole "you idiots" thing was a joke! Sorry, I had no idea. I just thought you were a bored guy with nothing to do. I didn't think there was any sarcasm in that post, it really did seem like you had nothing better to do and decided to offend people that was having a discussion. Honestly.

@TGSFG: If you expect people to take offense and post a disclaimer, then you intend to offend.

Twat!

Ireland-England things are much more sensitive issue than most. I've talked to enough real people to know what kind of joke would offend people much more easily.

Is name calling common on this forum?

Ignatz

20th August 2006, 03:01 AM

KW Thinking:
If one doesn't like a thread, call everyone in it stupid and leave negative reps to people inside. Then call in the old members to call these people stupid together.
Yes, KW thinking is stupid. Let's quit!

Paikea

20th August 2006, 04:01 AM

KW Forum:
Every thread is to die out when a member (often a veteren) starts to cry and call it stupid.

No. the thread died in May of 2005, and was ressurected by another hothead ragging on Mad-God, who had been banned months before. Since then, it's been a regular stop for cranks and trolls.

KW Thinking:
If one doesn't like a thread, call everyone in it stupid and leave negative reps to people inside. Then call in the old members to call these people stupid together.God gave you that little X in the upper right corner of your browser to use in just such an emergency.

Andou

20th August 2006, 07:16 AM

Oh I see, so the whole "you idiots" thing was a joke! Sorry, I had no idea. I just thought you were a bored guy with nothing to do. I didn't think there was any sarcasm in that post, it really did seem like you had nothing better to do and decided to offend people that was having a discussion. Honestly.

Is name calling common on this forum?

I realize you're whole confusion about not being able to read humor in text, but look at T. Lee's avatar...I'd need proof that he was posting a serious comment with the Afro Ninja sittin next to his name.

tgsfg

20th August 2006, 07:53 AM

I realize you're whole confusion about not being able to read humor in text, but look at T. Lee's avatar...I'd need proof that he was posting a serious comment with the Afro Ninja sittin next to his name.

My mistake, really.
Should I ever take Gibbo seriously?

T.Lee

20th August 2006, 05:25 PM

No. the thread died in May of 2005, and was ressurected by another hothead ragging on Mad-God, who had been banned months before. Since then, it's been a regular stop for cranks and trolls.

HOOK UP! we got a fresh one!

Paikea

21st August 2006, 09:42 AM

HOOK UP! we got a fresh one!Such was my thinking. We'll see...

Penguin Rush

21st August 2006, 03:12 PM

HOOK UP! we got a fresh one!

Looks like no one is going to take your flame bait. Good try though.

Speaking of this whole Korea vs Japan thing. Korea has it's problem, but the Japanese aren't any betteR:
http://www.geocities.jp/bxninjin2004/

Notice that many of the sites claim are inaccurate and stupid. He constantly suggest that the Koreans only use sources from their own country, but he never uses any source outside of Japanese ones.

T.Lee

21st August 2006, 03:48 PM

speaking of flame bait.... how about being original.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9946

if this was multimedia forum, id show a picture of a dead horse....

tgsfg

22nd August 2006, 12:52 PM

Looks like no one is going to take your flame bait. Good try though.

Speaking of this whole Korea vs Japan thing. Korea has it's problem, but the Japanese aren't any betteR:
http://www.geocities.jp/bxninjin2004/

Notice that many of the sites claim are inaccurate and stupid. He constantly suggest that the Koreans only use sources from their own country, but he never uses any source outside of Japanese ones.

1. Not the Japanese, but a Japanese.
2. There are racism amongst all races.
3. Who cares? Let him hate.

HangPC2

4th April 2007, 07:05 PM

Tang (China), Baekje, Shilla & Koguryo (Korea) Influenced In Yamato (Japan)

Yamato (Kofun) Period

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5512/yamatojapanesearmourarmorkofun.jpg

http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/9550/kofunjidaijouehakama6xz.jpg

Asuka Period

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3179/asukaman7rt.gif

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5366/asukatakamatudukadansi6cx.jpg

Nara Period

http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/6455/naracyoufukubukan9rt.jpg

http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/6910/naradanshicyoufuku8nj.jpg

http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/1876/narajosicyoufuku4nw.jpg

http://img416.imageshack.us/img416/6089/narajosicyoufukuhaisisugata9ti.jpg