View Full Version : holy cow, now they are saying Samurai actually from Korea?
"The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......
http://www.hdgumdo.com/
under intro > President Greetings>
yamaguchi
08-10-2004, 05:48 AM
According to DNA, We are all from Africa. So Samurai is from Africa too.
That's I want to say now, just hearing this news. but I am not mad. But I am getting tired to hear this kind things.
yamaguchi.
Yoshito
08-10-2004, 05:52 AM
"The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......
http://www.hdgumdo.com/
under intro > President Greetings>
I guess the guestion is, what is "NOT" from Korea...
GrandCentral9
08-10-2004, 06:15 AM
Before you dismiss this paragraph as more Korean "propaganda," ask yourself this question:
What is a samurai?
The romanticized version springing from the Tokugawa Shogunate is a far cry from the bow and spear wielding horseman of the pre-bakufu days.
This is not to say that samurai originated in Korea or anything of that sort. However, if the first warrior ever to set foot in Japan was from Korea, doesn't the statement have some element of the truth? (Again, not to suggest that the first soldier in Japan was Korean... just playing out a hypothesis)
Haowen
08-10-2004, 06:54 AM
According to DNA, We are all from Africa. So Samurai is from Africa too.
yamaguchi.
I wanted to say that the other time people were arguing if the Japanese came from Korea or from China. We all came from Africa! Or we could say we all had gills once upon a time so we all came from the ocean :)
I don't care if Ronald McDonald invented the samurai. I'd rather save the energy for concentrating on my own practice.
The cited history is actually not that preposterous. Migration of warriors and people from the Korean peninsula to Japan over the course of history is documented and acknowleged by korean/japanese scholars. Japan and Korea share similarities in language root, food, genetics, heck even their dogs look alike.
BUT, using modern notions of nations to what happened that long ago is foolish. There was no "japan" and there was no "korea" that long ago. There were multiple nations and kingdoms appearing and disappearing over the centuries all over Asia.
Being obsessed with what came from where and which modern nation gets the credit for it is an exercise in futility.
DanDan
08-10-2004, 08:18 AM
^their dogs look the same? do they taste the same too? i wanna try bo shin tang (dog soup) some day b4 i die
You can't eat jindos dude. Some old men got sued for 8 thousand US dollars or something for eating a female Jindo dog in Korea a month or two ago! Plus indigenous Korean dogs are protected by law as Cultural Treasures. You can eat noorungees, yellow medium sized mutts grown for human consumption. But even noorungees go for like 2 thousand us dollars.
^their dogs look the same? do they taste the same too? i wanna try bo shin tang (dog soup) some day b4 i die
wait... but how come japanese have some chinese characters and korean doesn't??:confused2
taganahan
08-10-2004, 11:41 AM
not too sure....but i think that the japanese people once bowed to the emperor of china. at least that's what my mandarin teacher told us.
~taganahan
Lloromannic
08-10-2004, 11:43 AM
wait... but how come japanese have some chinese characters and korean doesn't??:confused2
I think they do (at least they have the ones for Kumdo)
DanDan
08-10-2004, 12:33 PM
^they do use chinese characters in korean. it's called hanja. they don't use it much though. that's why 劍道 is read kumdo in korea and kendo in japan.
i think i read it somewhere that the japanese people (not the native ones) originally migrated from china. the emperor of the chin dynasty(the one who has fake soldiers in his tombs) forced a group of people to explore this "new territory"... and of course to escape the terrible rule of this emperor, they never came back and so....
dunno, this might be bogus
Hisham
08-10-2004, 07:59 PM
I always thought that the warrior class in old Korea was called the Hoarang class.
Lucien
08-10-2004, 08:44 PM
As has been mentioned, Koreans did and still do use Chinese characters. However, their script, Hangul, is one of the few wholly invented scripts in the world. I can't remember the time period now, but it was constructed by Korean courtiers.
Not wishing to fan the flames, but it is worth remembering that the Japanese culture is heavily influenced by Korea and other Asian countries. To give an extreme example, the Japanese royal family may well be Korean in origin. (Japanese scholars point to the keyhole graves used to bury royalty in both countries.)
One could also mention that Japanese pottery owes a debt to the potters abducted from Korea, its Confucian and Buddhist thought came from China, and that's just the beginning of the list.
Of course, Japan has its own traditions and culture, and we are lucky enough to benefit from it. But as a student of East Asian Studies, and lived for two years in Japan, I can't buy into the popularly expoused myth that Japan is unique, seperate and ultimately superior.
Shazzanzzz
08-10-2004, 10:05 PM
Korea is the only country that tries to say everything is theirs, and try to prove it too, and ignoring some obvious facts at the same time.
The site is kinda funny, because, some Taiwanese sites says Kendo is originated in China too, but they said it in a different way. THey said the theory and concept originated from China, as there were documentations about 'jiandao' (kendo) from around 1000BC. They don't completely leave out the fact that kendo as we know it right now is japanese.
I don't think Japanese empire ever bowed to the emperor of china, they had their own emperor, which means they didn't recognize the chinese emperor as the son of heaven. Korea in the other hand, did. Han guo, the last korean kingdom, also how it is known right now, was established with help from china and were granted the 'kingdom' by the chinese emperor. That's why korean rulers were known as king instead emperor.
yamaguchi
08-10-2004, 11:12 PM
If you are born in USA, don't you call yourself American? My mother side of family came from Korea or China 2000 years ago. We are sure about that. But there are no samurai at that time. I thought that there was no word for Samurai yet at that time. There were some kind organized millitary back then, but there were no word for Samurai yet.
When Ashikaga was coming up around 1180, Kamakura bakufu organized 1192, Samurai (which new kind gang at that time) was organized. I thought this is what I learn from history book. So Time did not much. There is no record about the word call Samurai before Ashikaga.
Also Japanese are not only come from China and Korean. Polynesian, Mongolian, Ainu, Hayato, and so on also.
Read Tale of Genji. There is no word call Samurai at that book.
It is like Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Isuzu, Suzuki, Sony, Cannon, Toshiba, Panasonic, Yamaha, Subaru, NEC, Koizumi, Godzilla, Mosura, me,
come from Korea? Enough is enough.
This is what I feel like.
Sorry
Yamaguchi. PS. I have Korean Friends, and I love Korean BBQ. We talk about this sometimes, but they said it is political. We should ignore.
Hai_hai
09-10-2004, 09:35 AM
I guess the guestion is, what is "NOT" from Korea...
SPAM. It's from America.
ha ha kendo definately does not originate from china
Shazzanzzz
09-10-2004, 05:05 PM
ha ha kendo definately does not originate from china
Shows how little you know about asian culture and history.
First of all, do, 道, is chinese, period, no one will ever try to say otherwise.
I would say more, but, i don't think you would be able to understand anyways, so i'm not gonna bother.
I dont' think Kendo is Chinese, but, that doesn't mean it doesn't have chinese origins. I suggest you read up on some Chinese philosophy before you reply.
hm let's see... since I AM A TAIWANESE and has been living in Taiwan for 12 years and practiced kendo there and never hear any taiwanese claim the ridiculous idea of kendo originating from china, THAT IS WHY I POST THAT COMMENT
Oh, and also, chinese philosophy has nothing to do with kendo
kendokamax
10-10-2004, 02:11 AM
we all know who is the last samurai, but who is the first samurai?
Zaphiel
10-10-2004, 02:25 AM
Oh, and also, chinese philosophy has nothing to do with kendo
well perhaps not chinese philosophy.....but culture.....japanese culture came from the chinese culture(as you can see when looking at the labguage and the writing for example)...and philosophy is defenitly a part of culture...so you could say chinese philosophy has something to do with kendo....
......
or does zen have something to do with kendo...well as the bushi had something to do with zen...as it was part of their everyday life.. and as they were the ones practacing kendo(or kenjutsu in that time) it has something to do with zen....and zen is group of the buddistic religion...which was found in china AND has a philosophy....i would say.......year kendo might have something to do with chinese philosophy.....................just a suggestion...:smiley:
Haowen
10-10-2004, 02:42 AM
well perhaps not chinese philosophy.....but culture.....japanese culture came from the chinese culture(as you can see when looking at the labguage and the writing for example)...and philosophy is defenitly a part of culture...so you could say chinese philosophy has something to do with kendo....
......
or does zen have something to do with kendo...well as the bushi had something to do with zen...as it was part of their everyday life.. and as they were the ones practacing kendo(or kenjutsu in that time) it has something to do with zen....and zen is group of the buddistic religion...which was found in china AND has a philosophy....i would say.......year kendo might have something to do with chinese philosophy.....................just a suggestion...:smiley:
I'm not going to argue with all your points, most of which I disagree with, but I'd like to correct a factual error:
Zen buddhism was not "found" (developed?) in China. Buddhism was founded in India, and the particular style known as Zen buddhism was brought into China FROM India by Bodhidharma, who was an Indian monk.
Shazzanzzz
10-10-2004, 03:36 AM
I can't find the site I first saw it at anymore, but, this is from another taiwanese club.
http://www.vghtpe.gov.tw/~swks2/doc1/kendoskill.htm
That's what i meant in my first post, i'm not saying kendo is chinese, never did. I was just commenting how the thread starter's site completely left out that kendo is japanese, while taiwanese site at least only said the sword techniques and philosophy originated in china.
As for zen buddhism, it is very close to daoism from china. Some people wonder if they have the same origins. Also, i think Laozi and buddha lived around the same time period, don't remember anymore.
The idea of 無 (mu, wu) is the basic philosophy of kendo, and it's the same for daoism. Zen Buddhism tend to use the word 空 (emptiness) more i think.
and I mean, 道 in 劍道 gives it away pretty easily what philosophy it's based on, i think.
btw, 007, im taiwanese too... where you from in taiwan?
another proof to kendo is not from china is that if you watch all the sword techniques of china, it is all basically based on "extravegance" forms meaning that it's all for show and entertainment for the public but kendo is on the other hand... more of a martial art for the public?? and the swords from china are completely different from the swords from Japan.
an observation: i think that people will try to claim something sucessful as something that they discovered first, like kendo or paper or the compass and it's just human nature. Although it can be frustrating to the other sides...
GrandCentral9
10-10-2004, 07:05 AM
[QUOTE=Shazzanzzz] Korea is the only country that tries to say everything is theirs, and try to prove it too, and ignoring some obvious facts at the same time. [QUOTE]
Check out the Japanese/Korean dispute over the Dokto islands... Korea isn't the only country ignoring obvious facts and trying to claim something as its own ;)
Lloromannic
10-10-2004, 08:04 AM
an observation: i think that people will try to claim something sucessful as something that they discovered first, like kendo or paper or the compass and it's just human nature. Although it can be frustrating to the other sides...
For example the adjustable wrench is know as "english wrench" i many countrries but it's actually swedish, as well as the design for the coke bottle.
DanDan
10-10-2004, 08:07 AM
Check out the Japanese/Korean dispute over the Dokto islands... Korea isn't the only country ignoring obvious facts and trying to claim something as its own ;)there's also a dispute between the koreans and chinese about their history...something about the koguryo kingdom...
Because Korea was a scholarly agricultural society where scholarship was a more revered trait for the king than militarism. Korean Kings were steeped in the classical letters all throughout its last millenium and military concerns were left for the lesser subordinates.
Japan had a similar royal court during Heian era. But the country bumpkin warlords overran things ushering militarism and warmongering, etc.. The samurai feudal system is created and the rest is history.
I think it was around 1600's that a Korean king commissioned creation of the korean, phonetic alphabet rather than relying on CHinese characters or Chinese inspired script.
wait... but how come japanese have some chinese characters and korean doesn't??:confused2
Kendo-Militia
12-10-2004, 02:32 AM
WHO CARES. We are all from Africa. So therefore Kendo must have originated in AFRICA
What a joke. Ignoring facts indeed. China didn't grant kingdomship to KOrea. And what the hell is Han guo??? There never was a "han guo" kingdom in all of korean history. You should know better by even just looking at the chracters for "han guo". Good grief. Go flaunt your ignorance elsewhere.
Thousands and thousands of Chinese peasant horde armies were butchered and held back by Korean kingdoms all throughout history for milleniums.
The only conquering foreign army were the Mongolians who forced Korean princes to marry Mongolian princesses and respected sovereignty of Korean kingdom.
China was used by Korean kingdoms to conquer other koreans kingdoms during times of war but that was about it. China always recognized sovereignty of Korea as a refined and civilized neighbor all throughout history.
Korea is the only country that tries to say everything is theirs, and try to prove it too, and ignoring some obvious facts at the same time.
The site is kinda funny, because, some Taiwanese sites says Kendo is originated in China too, but they said it in a different way. THey said the theory and concept originated from China, as there were documentations about 'jiandao' (kendo) from around 1000BC. They don't completely leave out the fact that kendo as we know it right now is japanese.
I don't think Japanese empire ever bowed to the emperor of china, they had their own emperor, which means they didn't recognize the chinese emperor as the son of heaven. Korea in the other hand, did. Han guo, the last korean kingdom, also how it is known right now, was established with help from china and were granted the 'kingdom' by the chinese emperor. That's why korean rulers were known as king instead emperor.
I agree with you. Samurai didn't come from Korea. Samurai didn't exist until after 1300, 1400's or so which was beginning of Yi dynasty in Korea long AFTER the Samurangs were long dead and gone.
Furthermore, there was no "korea" and "japan" in those ancient times. THere were multiple scattered asian kingdoms throughout Asia. Different languages were used by different Chinese, Korean, Japanese kingdoms. What we know now as China, Korea and Japan are modern constructions.
If you are born in USA, don't you call yourself American? My mother side of family came from Korea or China 2000 years ago. We are sure about that. But there are no samurai at that time. I thought that there was no word for Samurai yet at that time. There were some kind organized millitary back then, but there were no word for Samurai yet.
When Ashikaga was coming up around 1180, Kamakura bakufu organized 1192, Samurai (which new kind gang at that time) was organized. I thought this is what I learn from history book. So Time did not much. There is no record about the word call Samurai before Ashikaga.
Also Japanese are not only come from China and Korean. Polynesian, Mongolian, Ainu, Hayato, and so on also.
Read Tale of Genji. There is no word call Samurai at that book.
It is like Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Isuzu, Suzuki, Sony, Cannon, Toshiba, Panasonic, Yamaha, Subaru, NEC, Koizumi, Godzilla, Mosura, me,
come from Korea? Enough is enough.
This is what I feel like.
Sorry
Yamaguchi. PS. I have Korean Friends, and I love Korean BBQ. We talk about this sometimes, but they said it is political. We should ignore.
Well, you have boneheaded Chinese claims(exhibit A: Shazz)
You also have boneheaded Japanese claims: single edged sword originated in Japan and Korean swords are kitchen knives, Karate originated in Japan and Taekwondo is a copy, Koreans are criminals, etc..
There's ignorance on all sides.
China was used by Korean kingdoms to conquer other koreans kingdoms during times of war but that was about it. China always recognized sovereignty of Korea as a refined and civilized neighbor all throughout history.
uhh... now i think u are going too far with your korean nationalism, China a sovereignty of Korea?? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.
DanDan
12-10-2004, 12:13 PM
no...it had sum10 to do w/ china claiming that some korean kingdom was actually chinese and koreans are really angry that the chinese are trying to change the korean history their also mad about how the chinese treat north korean refugees. I mean north koreans have a hard life. why make it any harder?
GrandCentral9
12-10-2004, 05:27 PM
uhh... now i think u are going too far with your korean nationalism, China a sovereignty of Korea?? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.
Reading comprehension is a lost art...
A sentence that states "X recognized sovereignty of Y" means that X acknowledged Y as a sovereign nation... Maybe you've confused sovereignty with suzerainty?
Zaphiel
12-10-2004, 08:25 PM
I'm not going to argue with all your points, most of which I disagree with, but I'd like to correct a factual error:
Zen buddhism was not "found" (developed?) in China. Buddhism was founded in India, and the particular style known as Zen buddhism was brought into China FROM India by Bodhidharma, who was an Indian monk.you may be right i don't know.......but can you agree with what i said about the philoophy coming (if you want) in second place from china...?
aaahhh...and yes i will not discuss where buddism is from...and you missunderstood me with the found thing.......i meant zen has a something to do with konfuzius...who came from (south)china.....but from china...
No YOU've got to be kidding ME. Reading comprehension is a good thing. I think you need to look up what sovereignty means.
p.s. Thanks GrandCentral.
uhh... now i think u are going too far with your korean nationalism, China a sovereignty of Korea?? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.
Shazzanzzz
13-10-2004, 04:16 PM
Well, you have boneheaded Chinese claims(exhibit A: Shazz)
You also have boneheaded Japanese claims: single edged sword originated in Japan and Korean swords are kitchen knives, Karate originated in Japan and Taekwondo is a copy, Koreans are criminals, etc..
There's ignorance on all sides.
Mero... I was wondering where you were, haha. Thought you would come in and say something after i made that post...
But uh.. i never said any of those tihngs u claimed i said, it's other people. One sided sword is the word knife in chinese, believe or not.
But actually, i did say some stuff wrong in that post. They didn't do that for the last kingdom, i think it's their first unified kingdom, can't remember exactly. But, i remember that they did help establish that kingdom and was recognized (better word than granted?) by the chinese emperor as a kingdom.
Unlike Korean history, korean conflicts or dealings with china was NEVER any major concerns in chinese history, so, i won't be able to tell u when china attacked korean kingdoms and such or helped whom. As far as i know, in the years of great chinese empires, korea always paid tributes to china and sent scholars to china as students, especially tang dynasty.
You learn what koreans people wrote, i learned my stuff from what chinese people wrote. People write history! did u ever think of that? Maybe, just MAYBE they wrote something different.
When i was in korea the past summer, some artifacts used Chinese Emperor years, can you tell me why? I was wondering.
You're tripping all over yourself there. You always seem to confuse arguments and misread sentences. It's a bit frustrating but perhaps English isn't your first language which is fine. Let me break it down for you so can follow more easily:
1. My "claims" that you're responding to were the claims I described as boneheaded Japanese claims. YOUR own boneheaded claims about hanguo and China helping to establish it and such sinocentric garbage were in your last post. You should read it, then read my response and give your response if you have any. You haven't touched the substance of my last post yet.
2. Regarding your new question in your last post: during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. This is all over Chinese historic documents where Korea is described as a place of refinement and learning. Korea on the other hand recognized the power of the sheer size and mass of China and coveted Chinese alliance in a progressively tumultuous world. Hence direct gifts and acknowlegements from the Chinese emperor were treasured by Korean Kings. OF course ALL of this, including tributes, sending scholars to China, etc., DO NOTHING about korean sovereignty which was recognized by China for thousands of years. My guess is that you're being effected by recent revisionist Chinese efforts to sinofy Korean history. Mind you that to this day Northeast China is inhabited by ethnic Koreans who still speak Korean.
That's two separate issues up there and I numbered them so you wouldn't confuse them. I'd like a response to both.
Mero... I was wondering where you were, haha. Thought you would come in and say something after i made that post...
But uh.. i never said any of those tihngs u claimed i said, it's other people. One sided sword is the word knife in chinese, believe or not.
But actually, i did say some stuff wrong in that post. They didn't do that for the last kingdom, i think it's their first unified kingdom, can't remember exactly. But, i remember that they did help establish that kingdom and was recognized (better word than granted?) by the chinese emperor as a kingdom.
Unlike Korean history, korean conflicts or dealings with china was NEVER any major concerns in chinese history, so, i won't be able to tell u when china attacked korean kingdoms and such or helped whom. As far as i know, in the years of great chinese empires, korea always paid tributes to china and sent scholars to china as students, especially tang dynasty.
You learn what koreans people wrote, i learned my stuff from what chinese people wrote. People write history! did u ever think of that? Maybe, just MAYBE they wrote something different.
When i was in korea the past summer, some artifacts used Chinese Emperor years, can you tell me why? I was wondering.
Keith Hong
13-10-2004, 11:19 PM
- during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. -
No. Throughout its history, the Yi dynasty, or Chosun, made it clear that it considered itself China's subordinate nation.
Chosun had to, and always did, seek the Ming emperor's permission to designate a prince as the crown prince.
After siding with the Ming during the rise of the Ching dynasty, the king of Chosun, as an act of submission, bowed his head to the ground in the direction of the Ching emperor (way the hell away in Peking) so many times that his forehead bled.
Another evidence that Ching nor Chosun itself never considered the Yi dynasty as a completely sovereign, independent nation - when Japan decided to annex Korea at the end of the 19th century, it never fought Chosun itself. Japan fought Ching in the Sino-Japanese War. After winning it, Japan forced Ching to sign a treaty recognizing that Chosun would thereafter be an independent nation - independent that it would able to sign annex treaties with Japan.
These are things that are taught in Korean high school National History textbooks.
Shazzanzzz
14-10-2004, 12:59 AM
- during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. -
No. Throughout its history, the Yi dynasty, or Chosun, made it clear that it considered itself China's subordinate nation.
Chosun had to, and always did, seek the Ming emperor's permission to designate a prince as the crown prince.
After siding with the Ming during the rise of the Ching dynasty, the king of Chosun, as an act of submission, bowed his head to the ground in the direction of the Ching emperor (way the hell away in Peking) so many times that his forehead bled.
Another evidence that Ching nor Chosun itself never considered the Yi dynasty as a completely sovereign, independent nation - when Japan decided to annex Korea at the end of the 19th century, it never fought Chosun itself. Japan fought Ching in the Sino-Japanese War. After winning it, Japan forced Ching to sign a treaty recognizing that Chosun would thereafter be an independent nation - independent that it would able to sign annex treaties with Japan.
These are things that are taught in Korean high school National History textbooks.
THANK YOU
As for Mero, perhaps you don't know korean anyways and are just reading stuff online?
I confuse arguments and misread? Always seem like you're the one doing so, saying false claims all the time, and showing how you can never have a polite argument with anyone.
So when was Korean soveriegnty ever not acknowleged by China?
chirp.. chirp... chirp...
THANK YOU
As for Mero, perhaps you don't know korean anyways and are just reading stuff online?
I confuse arguments and misread? Always seem like you're the one doing so, saying false claims all the time, and showing how you can never have a polite argument with anyone.
First of all everything you wrote doesn't negate the fact that China recognized Korea as an independent and separate nation with its own soverignty. China always considered Korea to be a fellow civilized nation, to be bullied at times but never subsumes under China itself. NOTHING you wrote undermines this.
Also, the Ching dynasty was not "Chinese". They were Manchus and hated by the populous. THey spoke a different language, came from a different genetic stock, different historic heritage, ect.. Nonetheless, the Ching never considered Korea to be part of China without its own sovereignty.
Regarding Japanese annexation, the Yi dynasty was ALWAYS a self-governed, independent nation. It was weak but never subsumed as part of China. The Sino-Japanese War only proves that both nations were competing for control over Chosun which was a weak nation easily conquerable at the turn of the century. In any case, the Japanese also fought the Russians for Korea also which also proves that Russia wanted in the action to conquer Korea. None of this belies the fact that Korea was independent nation even at the end of the Yi dynasty.
Korean highschool textbooks never states Korea was started by China nor does it support Chinese revisionist history.
- during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. -
No. Throughout its history, the Yi dynasty, or Chosun, made it clear that it considered itself China's subordinate nation.
Chosun had to, and always did, seek the Ming emperor's permission to designate a prince as the crown prince.
After siding with the Ming during the rise of the Ching dynasty, the king of Chosun, as an act of submission, bowed his head to the ground in the direction of the Ching emperor (way the hell away in Peking) so many times that his forehead bled.
Another evidence that Ching nor Chosun itself never considered the Yi dynasty as a completely sovereign, independent nation - when Japan decided to annex Korea at the end of the 19th century, it never fought Chosun itself. Japan fought Ching in the Sino-Japanese War. After winning it, Japan forced Ching to sign a treaty recognizing that Chosun would thereafter be an independent nation - independent that it would able to sign annex treaties with Japan.
These are things that are taught in Korean high school National History textbooks.
nalogg
14-10-2004, 01:18 AM
Last year in the playoffs there were more "canadians" on the tampa bay team, than there were on toronto. but nobody cared....
My point is....
nobody cares, and if you do
get over yourself, we all originate from the same descent
oh hockey! please come back!
:down:
litige
14-10-2004, 01:22 AM
Last year in the playoffs there were more "canadians" on the tampa bay team, than there were on toronto. but nobody cared....
:down:
Woaw, I cared, that's why I was a lighthing "partisans", especially with two quebecois on the team.
Hisham
14-10-2004, 04:54 AM
i meant zen has a something to do with konfuzius...who came from (south)china.....but from china...A humble try to shed some light on Zen origins:Zen buddhism or Chan ( in mandarin ) buddhism has nothing to do with the confucian thought ,Chan buddhism originated in the shaolin temple:http://english.yinyangandtaichichuan.org/bodhidharma.html
Damn CHinese revisionists. THey're the worse.
bullet08
14-10-2004, 07:21 AM
according to popular story, cho-sun was name given to korea by chinese emperor. china was viewed as 'middle country' between earth and heaven.. maybe chinese folks still believe that..
according to another popular story, japanese annexation of korea was actually due to part of korean royal family. this part of royal family actually invited japanese troops to protect themselves from other koreans who wanted them out of the power..
now.. what does all these have to do with kendo?
according to another popular story.. when chinese nationalists first got to taiwan after they got their ass kicked by reds.. there weren't even handful of people who could speak chinese on that island.. they were all speaking japanese, native folks on taiwan that is. does that mean modern taiwanese are actually living off japanese island? if so.. why are the red china still think of taiwan as theirs?
everything we read from book.. are what they are.. someone's perspective or twisted imagination of what they thought has happened back in history. does it really matter now?
Where did you hear all this from? I'd be interested if there's real sources behind these stories. But as far as I know:
Chosun was a moniker that existed well before the Yi dynasty. It was not named by the Chinese emperor but chosen by the Yi dynasty to embue antiquity onto itself.
Japanese annexation of Korea was not by invitation by the royal family. That's pretty ignorant. Queen Min was murdered by Japanese agents and the rest of the royalty took refuge in the Russian embassy until they were taken to Japan. No invitation there.
As for Taiwan, the natives speak their own language. THey still speak it. Japanese was only introduced en mass during colonization.
Where did you hear all this?
according to popular story, cho-sun was name given to korea by chinese emperor. china was viewed as 'middle country' between earth and heaven.. maybe chinese folks still believe that..
according to another popular story, japanese annexation of korea was actually due to part of korean royal family. this part of royal family actually invited japanese troops to protect themselves from other koreans who wanted them out of the power.
now.. what does all these have to do with kendo?
according to another popular story.. when chinese nationalists first got to taiwan after they got their ass kicked by reds.. there weren't even handful of people who could speak chinese on that island.. they were all speaking japanese, native folks on taiwan that is. does that mean modern taiwanese are actually living off japanese island? if so.. why are the red china still think of taiwan as theirs?
everything we read from book.. are what they are.. someone's perspective or twisted imagination of what they thought has happened back in history. does it really matter now?
according to popular story, cho-sun was name given to korea by chinese emperor. china was viewed as 'middle country' between earth and heaven.. maybe chinese folks still believe that..
according to another popular story, japanese annexation of korea was actually due to part of korean royal family. this part of royal family actually invited japanese troops to protect themselves from other koreans who wanted them out of the power..
now.. what does all these have to do with kendo?
according to another popular story.. when chinese nationalists first got to taiwan after they got their ass kicked by reds.. there weren't even handful of people who could speak chinese on that island.. they were all speaking japanese, native folks on taiwan that is. does that mean modern taiwanese are actually living off japanese island? if so.. why are the red china still think of taiwan as theirs?
everything we read from book.. are what they are.. someone's perspective or twisted imagination of what they thought has happened back in history. does it really matter now?
since i'm taiwanese, i shall clear this up... china gave taiwan away to Japan when Japan invaded China so, most of the taiwanese at that time speak japanese. HOwever, when Mao's army forced Cheung kai-shek's army or the nationalists to taiwan, manderin chinese was introduced. Yet this doesn't mean that nobody spoke chinese before the nationalists came, it was just uncommon. Usually, those who speak Japanese are thought to have a higher education and better family background.
p.s.: although i do not like china very much but it is known throughout other parts of the world that the chinese is the oldest civilization in asia.
Kikuchiyo
14-10-2004, 08:55 AM
I wish I could debate violently the origins of my culture. Too bad Romanians aren't really known for much other than Vlad Tepes and Transylvania. Maybe I should look into that one day. Somehow I feel like a leech sometimes, like I have to get all my culture from another country. Kind of sad. Maybe I should start a huge rumor on how Romanians actually invented fighting... period. Yeah that's right, back in the day there just weren't enough sheep to go around so good old Mihai got mad at his neighbor peter and wanted to point out how many more sheep Peter had, but ended up extending his arm a little to fast as he was pointing. WAM Right in the old kisser. So after Peter got up, he returned the favor right back, and that's how all the death and havoc in the world began. 2 silly romanian sheep herders. They also invented socialism too. It's was always better when the sheep were divided eaqually among all. All those old cultures that 'claim' to have invented wrestling and boxing, nah, all liars. Kung Fu, all just a sham. Kendo, pfft yeah right, peter started that one when he picked up his staff to hit mihai, assuming perfect kamae and exhibiting wonderful te no uchi, except back then it was called 'strangling the farm chicken.' Yup.
bullet08
14-10-2004, 09:50 AM
Where did you hear all this from? I'd be interested if there's real sources behind these stories. But as far as I know:
Chosun was a moniker that existed well before the Yi dynasty. It was not named by the Chinese emperor but chosen by the Yi dynasty to embue antiquity onto itself.
Japanese annexation of Korea was not by invitation by the royal family. That's pretty ignorant. Queen Min was murdered by Japanese agents and the rest of the royalty took refuge in the Russian embassy until they were taken to Japan. No invitation there.
As for Taiwan, the natives speak their own language. THey still speak it. Japanese was only introduced en mass during colonization.
Where did you hear all this?
when i was growing up in korea back in 70's in my history classes. it was common knowledge that jo-sun was name given to korea by china or whatever the name of that kingdom was back then after gen. yi back stabbed his own king. then he sent diplomat to china to make political tie with whatever that chinese kingdom was at that time. the chinese choose jo-sun since korea was east most country that recieved sun in the morning. back then japan was considered less than sea scum.
as far as japanese annexation, it's also common knowledge that we invited japanese into korea. and one of the jack ass sold the whole country to japanese for 100 won, or was it 200 won? might have been less.
normally winners write the story.. but since in this case korea nor japan won.. so who wrote the story? you mean korean history has already been revised since 1979? dang.. that's fast.
then again i hear korean kids are now saying north korea will never come down.. i think some jack ass said the same thing back in june 25th 1950, and sent all the soldiers on a leave since no one will start a war on sunday.
as for taiwan, i heard it from bio chem professor who went to taiwan after the war since majority of taiwanese soldiers had lack of vit-a and most ot them had night-blindness. mainly due to the promise that gen cheung gave to people who came to taiwan with him.. none shall go hungry and your belly will be filled with rice.. he forgot to tell them lack of certain vit in the diet will give them night blindness.
Paburo
14-10-2004, 11:25 AM
this conversation is kind of pointless...
technically, whatever ancient culture who came up with a 'sword' is the legitimate inventor of the 'sword fighting'. and im sure it wasnt korea or china or japan. all cultures and nations through history have had warriors and a warrior class. NOT koreans nor chinese nor japanese came up with the concept of 'war', 'soldier', 'sword fighting' EITHER. thus, warriors are a universal concept, different in surface from culture to culture but equal in form.
now, SAMURAI as we ALL know them NOW, with their daisho, naginata/yari, kabuto, yoroi and bushido... are clearly from japanese descent. and its historically obvious that kendo derives from the japanese bushi/samurai.
having this in mind, i think theres isnt much to argue about...
bullet08
14-10-2004, 11:40 AM
this conversation is kind of pointless...
technically, whatever ancient culture who came up with a 'sword' is the legitimate inventor of the 'sword fighting'. and im sure it wasnt korea or china or japan. all cultures and nations through history have had warriors and a warrior class. NOT koreans nor chinese nor japanese came up with the concept of 'war', 'soldier', 'sword fighting' EITHER. thus, warriors are a universal concept, different in surface from culture to culture but equal in form.
now, SAMURAI as we ALL know them NOW, with their daisho, naginata/yari, kabuto, yoroi and bushido... are clearly from japanese descent. and its historically obvious that kendo derives from the japanese bushi/samurai.
having this in mind, i think theres isnt much to argue about...i agree completely. however, if we all admit to that fact, there won't be anything to talk about when not in dojo/dojang. we could talk about technique.. but what good is it when one doesn't hae shinai in the hands and could actually work it out against someone else in bogu and ready to receive.. sigh.. it would be almost like playing chess in the head, or computer.. but what good is it when there is no joy of actually seeing someone in front of me.
Keith Hong
14-10-2004, 02:23 PM
would be 'conditional autonomy' - that Chosun's independence and sovereignity existed at the whim and pleasure of whoever was in power in China.
Also, Taekwondo did derive from Shotokan Karate, not Taekyon. There's an American professor at Ehwa Women's University, an Olympic Taekwondo medalist, who's done the research and interviewed early Taekwondo pioneers and that's what they told him. It's no coincidence that almost all of them learned Karate in Japan during the occupation. It has indeed evolved into some thing different from Karate over the years, but we can't deny where it comes from.
Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.
bullet08
15-10-2004, 07:52 AM
would be 'conditional autonomy' - that Chosun's independence and sovereignity existed at the whim and pleasure of whoever was in power in China.
Also, Taekwondo did derive from Shotokan Karate, not Taekyon. There's an American professor at Ehwa Women's University, an Olympic Taekwondo medalist, who's done the research and interviewed early Taekwondo pioneers and that's what they told him. It's no coincidence that almost all of them learned Karate in Japan during the occupation. It has indeed evolved into some thing different from Karate over the years, but we can't deny where it comes from.
Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.
are we, koreans, so ashamed of our own history that we are rewritting it to fit whatever current mood fits?
i know we have some dark moments in our history.. however, i'm damned proud of it. all these talk about kumdo being korean.. tae kwon do being korean.. samurai being korean.. it only makes us look like freaking idiots. good or bad, it's our history and we shoud cherish it.
i agree.. crazy commie bastards..
Lloromannic
15-10-2004, 10:28 AM
I wish I could debate violently the origins of my culture. Too bad Romanians aren't really known for much other than Vlad Tepes and Transylvania.
There is also O-Zone.
are we, koreans, so ashamed of our own history that we are rewritting it to fit whatever current mood fits?
i know we have some dark moments in our history.. however, i'm damned proud of it. all these talk about kumdo being korean.. tae kwon do being korean.. samurai being korean.. it only makes us look like freaking idiots. good or bad, it's our history and we shoud cherish it.
i agree.. crazy commie bastards..
yes! i totally agree with you. Finally, here is a korean who is truly proud of being a korean.
DanDan
15-10-2004, 11:53 AM
bullet08...u traitor...
haha jk
no one said that samurai couldn't hav been korean...they could've been anything. who knows?....who cares? we're all people. samurai were from Earth. There. that settles it.
Hai_hai
15-10-2004, 11:58 AM
Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.
Communist political groups were already trying to get more members before the Korean War occurred. It just so happens that the Soviets ended up supporting these groups, then war, blah blah blah, they made it down to Inchon, blah, blah, blah, the US pushed them back, blah blah blah... there's a bunch of half-American, half-Korean families.
DanDan
15-10-2004, 12:04 PM
^hahaha nice explanation hai_hai
You have a weird masochistic perspective on Japan's atrocities against Korea, Taiwan, etc.. Kind of interesting but some very wrong facts I'd like to point out.
Chosun is a word that was used to describe Korea peninsula thousands of years before the actual kingdo existed. It was a term used by Chinese scholars before a CHinese emperor even existed. That's why its was used by the Yi dynasty to enbue itself with antiquity. It was not made up nor given to Korea by any Chinese emperor.
As for the inviting Japanese to Korea... I thought you said that Korean royalty invited the Japanese. In any case, "we" didn't invite the Japanese to Korea. At the turn of the century, Korea was a pawn caught up in tumultuous geopolitics. THere were various factions within Korea during those times: pro-Japanese, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian, anti-foreign factions, etc.. There were collaborators galore. Nonetheless "we" didn't invite the Japanese invasion. Such a statement is just insecure hyperbole and factually wrong.
As for Taiwan, well if you're korean you know how the Japanese Empire had their wonderful tendency of destroying cultures, language, religion, etc.. Not sure what your point is with this.
when i was growing up in korea back in 70's in my history classes. it was common knowledge that jo-sun was name given to korea by china or whatever the name of that kingdom was back then after gen. yi back stabbed his own king. then he sent diplomat to china to make political tie with whatever that chinese kingdom was at that time. the chinese choose jo-sun since korea was east most country that recieved sun in the morning. back then japan was considered less than sea scum.
as far as japanese annexation, it's also common knowledge that we invited japanese into korea. and one of the jack ass sold the whole country to japanese for 100 won, or was it 200 won? might have been less.
normally winners write the story.. but since in this case korea nor japan won.. so who wrote the story? you mean korean history has already been revised since 1979? dang.. that's fast.
then again i hear korean kids are now saying north korea will never come down.. i think some jack ass said the same thing back in june 25th 1950, and sent all the soldiers on a leave since no one will start a war on sunday.
as for taiwan, i heard it from bio chem professor who went to taiwan after the war since majority of taiwanese soldiers had lack of vit-a and most ot them had night-blindness. mainly due to the promise that gen cheung gave to people who came to taiwan with him.. none shall go hungry and your belly will be filled with rice.. he forgot to tell them lack of certain vit in the diet will give them night blindness.
I certainly get your point but absence of conditions is not what determines sovereignty.
Sovereign nations, even weak and defenseless ones, can be limited by conditions galore and still be independent and soveriegn. In fact, from a geopolitical perspective sovereiegnty of ALL nations are always conditional. That's why kingdoms and nations sign treaties, engage in diplomacy, etc..
China was indeed powerful enough to conquer all its neighbors at whim. But that doesn't mean that Korea wasn't sovereign. That's not what "sovereign" means. Even China itself always considered Korea to be separate sovereign nation, albeit a pawn to be pushed around at times.
would be 'conditional autonomy' - that Chosun's independence and sovereignity existed at the whim and pleasure of whoever was in power in China.
Also, Taekwondo did derive from Shotokan Karate, not Taekyon. There's an American professor at Ehwa Women's University, an Olympic Taekwondo medalist, who's done the research and interviewed early Taekwondo pioneers and that's what they told him. It's no coincidence that almost all of them learned Karate in Japan during the occupation. It has indeed evolved into some thing different from Karate over the years, but we can't deny where it comes from.
Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.
Give me a break. As if I've forgotten about your reading comprehension gaff from before.
yes! i totally agree with you. Finally, here is a korean who is truly proud of being a korean.
ha! so if someone makes one mistake, they are not allow to voice their opinions anymore? You are exactly the kind of korean that people don't like, thinking that their country and cultrue is the best, the most superior and invented everything that is good and when you lose something, you would rather complain and say how koreans are always the targets of injustice than try to improve yourself from the loss.
p.s. to mero: it is truly pathetic if you will have to resort to personal attacks and explore on a mistake in an argument, this means that you do not have any response to the previous statements made against you.
DanDan
16-10-2004, 11:00 PM
^u kno...ur post was actually a personal attack...and u r the one who's saying that "it is truly pathetic if you will have to resort to personal attacks and explore on a mistake in an argument, this means that you do not have any response to the previous statements made against you." maybe u should be following ur own ethics
Hai_hai
17-10-2004, 03:23 AM
...You are exactly the kind of korean that people don't like, thinking that their country and cultrue is the best, the most superior and invented everything that is good and when you lose something, you would rather complain and say how koreans are always the targets of injustice than try to improve yourself from the loss...
Hmm, there's that kind of German, that kind of Austrian, that kind of British, that kind of French, that kind of American, that kind of Japanese, that kind of Chinese, that kind of <insert nationality here>...
Don't be such a stereo-typer. I'm stereo-typing you as the kind of moron who stereo-types in a bad way.
when is stereo typing ever good?
Hai_hai
17-10-2004, 12:06 PM
when is stereo typing ever good?
When it's true, like me stereo-typing you as the type of person who makes bad stereo-types. Punk.
bullet08
18-10-2004, 06:55 AM
mero.. just one question for you.. do you believe that north korea invade south on jun 25th 1950, or america first invaded north on that day?
LOL. man, talk about insecure aggression. :D
ha! so if someone makes one mistake, they are not allow to voice their opinions anymore? You are exactly the kind of korean that people don't like, thinking that their country and cultrue is the best, the most superior and invented everything that is good and when you lose something, you would rather complain and say how koreans are always the targets of injustice than try to improve yourself from the loss.
p.s. to mero: it is truly pathetic if you will have to resort to personal attacks and explore on a mistake in an argument, this means that you do not have any response to the previous statements made against you.
US didn't even get involved until Permanent Members of UN Security COucil passed resolution on UN military intervention. That's why NK tanks and troops steamrolled SK defenses until Inchon landing.
mero.. just one question for you.. do you believe that north korea invade south on jun 25th 1950, or america first invaded north on that day?
Wifenmummy
19-10-2004, 09:08 AM
Before you dismiss this paragraph as more Korean "propaganda," ask yourself this question:
What is a samurai?
The romanticized version springing from the Tokugawa Shogunate is a far cry from the bow and spear wielding horseman of the pre-bakufu days.
This is not to say that samurai originated in Korea or anything of that sort. However, if the first warrior ever to set foot in Japan was from Korea, doesn't the statement have some element of the truth? (Again, not to suggest that the first soldier in Japan was Korean... just playing out a hypothesis)
very good... btw cows arent holy! doesnt matter if they arent but i would agree definate japanese thing.. thats not to say korea didnt have any warriors and heroes
Zaphiel
20-10-2004, 02:42 AM
A humble try to shed some light on Zen origins:Zen buddhism or Chan ( in mandarin ) buddhism has nothing to do with the confucian thought ,Chan buddhism originated in the shaolin temple:http://english.yinyangandtaichichuan.org/bodhidharma.html
but he is often mentioned in zen-books or work-pices of zen monks........
and they relate to konfuzius.....
bullet08
20-10-2004, 08:42 AM
You have a weird masochistic perspective on Japan's atrocities against Korea, Taiwan, etc.. Kind of interesting but some very wrong facts I'd like to point out.
Chosun is a word that was used to describe Korea peninsula thousands of years before the actual kingdo existed. It was a term used by Chinese scholars before a CHinese emperor even existed. That's why its was used by the Yi dynasty to enbue itself with antiquity. It was not made up nor given to Korea by any Chinese emperor.
As for the inviting Japanese to Korea... I thought you said that Korean royalty invited the Japanese. In any case, "we" didn't invite the Japanese to Korea. At the turn of the century, Korea was a pawn caught up in tumultuous geopolitics. THere were various factions within Korea during those times: pro-Japanese, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian, anti-foreign factions, etc.. There were collaborators galore. Nonetheless "we" didn't invite the Japanese invasion. Such a statement is just insecure hyperbole and factually wrong.
As for Taiwan, well if you're korean you know how the Japanese Empire had their wonderful tendency of destroying cultures, language, religion, etc.. Not sure what your point is with this.
i was just going to go away.. but i got bored again :)
no.. i'm just have very realistic view of the things. yes, japan did aweful things during that time, bottomline is japanese did something that no one should have done. simple.
on the other hand, when someone occupies a land, and if there were people already living there, there should have been some sort of.. reaction to the action being taken place. it was all so easy for japanese to just take over korea and china. what's my point? korea and china f*cked it up. sure blame japan for all the things they did.. but what about what korea and china didn't do to prevent this from happening? sure, common people is not to blame.. they didn't know better.. what about the royal family? government? they f*cked it up big time. let see.. i'm sure someone's writing a book on how to blame this on japanese or some other folks..
yes.. let blame japanese for all their wrong doing. fine. that's just a fact. no one denies it, maybe some japanese people still do.. but there is also responsibility on part of korea and china to defend itself. it's very apparent that we didn't do a very good job of preventing them from stepping all over our motherland.
here is a question.. what was the decidng battle that japanese and korean fought before the occupation? since i believe that korean royal family actually invited them in, i don't remember any battle. or did they actually just moved their armed force in and no one even noticed it? wow..
what's my point? there really isn't any point. just feel like flaming this board.
i'm just a korean who's fed up with rest of koreans pointing finger everywhere.. never taking respsonsibility of its own action.. blame china.. blame japan.. oh.. korea is so weak.. we never done anything wrong.. why hurt us? attitude.
what really eats me alive is current korean government who can not decide which ass to kiss, and how far it needs to stick its lips into that ass. sure, i understand.. korea is weak. we need to kiss ALL the ass..
korea that i remembered from back in the 70's was something totally different. something that i was proud of.. we shot at japanese fishing boat when they violated our coast. we actively sent our agents to north korea and brought back heads.. we volunteer to send our troops (i'm sure US pushed us.. still..) to vietnam.. our ROK marine and army were feared around the freaking planet.. i want my korea back.. but i doubt that time will come any time soon..
I totally understand where you're coming from and I agree with a lot of what you wrote. But for Chinese posters to ignorantly claim that China started Korea which is a laymen's regurgitation of the recent sinofication of Korean history should be repulsive to you and me both. All I was doing was responding to such ignorance by pointing out historical fact. I like facts.
You also have to realize that the Yi dynasty was a scholarly, agricultural society. The Korean kings were esteemed for their scholarship. All of society and social status was based on this. It was in the midst of such an environment of learning that the Korean alphabet was created in early 1400's. Such a thing was inconceivable anywhere else east or west.
However, such a closed world of Confucious heaven was poorly prepared to respond to Hideyoshi's invasion during the latter of 19th century. Yi dynasty and Korea never could recover from that and was even more poorly prepared to handle the ravages of geopolitics at the turn of the last century.
Japan had a similar period during Heain era where the royalty and aristocracy ruled and left the military to countryside warlord. Eventually the unrefined, country warlords overran things ushering in era of feudalism and beginning the development of militarism, etc..
Go get a copy of, Korea's Place in the Sun (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393316815/qid=1098287481/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-0606407-2590453?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It's written by asian history professor from University of Chicago, Bruce Cummings. THe pre-1845 section of his book, first half, is absolutely illuminating. Good luck.
i was just going to go away.. but i got bored again :)
no.. i'm just have very realistic view of the things. yes, japan did aweful things during that time, bottomline is japanese did something that no one should have done. simple.
on the other hand, when someone occupies a land, and if there were people already living there, there should have been some sort of.. reaction to the action being taken place. it was all so easy for japanese to just take over korea and china. what's my point? korea and china f*cked it up. sure blame japan for all the things they did.. but what about what korea and china didn't do to prevent this from happening? sure, common people is not to blame.. they didn't know better.. what about the royal family? government? they f*cked it up big time. let see.. i'm sure someone's writing a book on how to blame this on japanese or some other folks..
yes.. let blame japanese for all their wrong doing. fine. that's just a fact. no one denies it, maybe some japanese people still do.. but there is also responsibility on part of korea and china to defend itself. it's very apparent that we didn't do a very good job of preventing them from stepping all over our motherland.
here is a question.. what was the decidng battle that japanese and korean fought before the occupation? since i believe that korean royal family actually invited them in, i don't remember any battle. or did they actually just moved their armed force in and no one even noticed it? wow..
what's my point? there really isn't any point. just feel like flaming this board.
i'm just a korean who's fed up with rest of koreans pointing finger everywhere.. never taking respsonsibility of its own action.. blame china.. blame japan.. oh.. korea is so weak.. we never done anything wrong.. why hurt us? attitude.
what really eats me alive is current korean government who can not decide which ass to kiss, and how far it needs to stick its lips into that ass. sure, i understand.. korea is weak. we need to kiss ALL the ass..
korea that i remembered from back in the 70's was something totally different. something that i was proud of.. we shot at japanese fishing boat when they violated our coast. we actively sent our agents to north korea and brought back heads.. we volunteer to send our troops (i'm sure US pushed us.. still..) to vietnam.. our ROK marine and army were feared around the freaking planet.. i want my korea back.. but i doubt that time will come any time soon..
facts... change "latter of 19th century" to "16th century". and fyi check out Wikipedia's entry of King Sejong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong) to check out illustration of my last post.
not-I
21-10-2004, 06:50 AM
Zen buddhism was not "found" (developed?) in China. Buddhism was founded in India, and the particular style known as Zen buddhism was brought into China FROM India by Bodhidharma, who was an Indian monk.
Chan buddhism originated in the shaolin temple
i meant zen has a something to do with konfuzius...who came from (south)china.....but from china...
Since i haven't posted anything in a while, and this is a semi-historical discussion, allow me to comment:
Buddhism was undoubtedly imported to China from India. However, it can safely be said that early Ch'an/Zen was first established as a formal sect in China. Early Ch'an was based on various strains of thought in Indian Mahayana Buddhism, especially on the Prajnápáramitá literature, but also on the Avatamsaka and the Lankávatára sutras. In China, this school of thought found affinities in Daosim, and early Ch'an developed as a sythesis of Daoism and Mahayana thought. Daoism was directly opposed to Confucianism, and, at least in China, Ch'an had very little to do with the latter. In Japan, Zen was sometimes brought into connection with elements of Confuciansim and Shintoism, but only peripherilly, and centuries later.
Bodhidharma is a semi-mythical figure. His historical existence is uncertain, and many of the writings attrituted to him were probably written at least 100 years after his supposed death. The idea that he settled at the Shaolin temple is also mythical, although it is true that the Shaolin are members of the Ch'an sect. But, as in the case of Jesus, we can be sure that there were figures like him active at that time. Things only start to become definitively verifiable with Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of Chinese Ch'an.
In Zen, we trace the lineage of our masters back to Buddha Shakyamuni, but hardly anyone actually takes this seriously in a historical sense. Nonetheless, many of the elements of Ch'an/Zen philosophy can be found in the teachings of the historical Buddha.
The point of these ramblings, related to the current discussion, is that a search for origins, especially early origins, will always turn into an ideological, rather than historical discussion. The history of human ideas is one of constant interaction, development, and cross-fertilzation. Cultures themselves have always grown out of various cultures. Being aware of history is important, but current teachings and practices, such as Zen or Kendo, live or die in the way we practice them here and now, regardless of where they may have "originated."
Wifenmummy
21-10-2004, 12:22 PM
man buddha was lazy!
Keith Hong
21-10-2004, 01:56 PM
once again, we have only ourselves, or our ancestors, to blame.
For most of Chosun's history, the Yi-dynasty-government-sanctioned mainstream take on the Korean people's origin was that a Chinese guy named Gi-ja came to Korea early on with a number of followers and civilized the natives. Hence our excellent manners and grasp of Chinese culture.
Dan-gun and Go-chosun was considered to be a flake theory by the establishment and mainstream historians.
The reason for our forefathers's claim of Chinese origin was simple enough - they wanted to be more 'Chinese' - and thus a better people. Certainly better than the barbarian Manchus and the peasant scum Japanese, or they thought.
These facts are something you used to learn in high school and college history classes before things got streamlined to accomodate 1. low scholastic aptitude of the new students(the dumbest in Korea's history - the teachers acknowledge) and 2. nationalistic revisions.
While I am proud to be Korean and have nothing but faith in our people and history, I am worried that these lapses in our history and, more importantly, the blind whitewashing of the past that's happening now will make it difficult to make calm, fact-based arguments to defend our country's past, present and future.
Keith Hong
21-10-2004, 02:18 PM
The whole point of the above post is that it's difficult to blame the Chinese layman, or anyone else, for distorting and misinterpreting the history and origin of the Korean people when our Korean forefathers were the one's who started the distortion - that we started off as Chinese!
I respect your right to an opinion and even agree with some of it but your moralist rants are really unhelpful and more importantly irrelevant to what sparked my disagreement with earlier posters in this thread. Plus, regardless of the question of relevance, such parochial emotionalism is the worse way to approach this topic.
T.Lee
26-10-2004, 03:04 AM
sushi is from korea too.
DanDan
26-10-2004, 09:29 AM
^ except they call it kimbap
decembersnow6
27-10-2004, 11:05 AM
I respect your right to an opinion and even agree with some of it but your moralist rants are really unhelpful and more importantly irrelevant to what sparked my disagreement with earlier posters in this thread. Plus, regardless of the question of relevance, such parochial emotionalism is the worse way to approach this topic.
chill man, everyone has their way saying things :cool:
decembersnow6
27-10-2004, 11:07 AM
sushi is from korea too.
how 'bout the inverse: sushi is from japan but in korea they call it kimbap?
I thought traditional sushi was for fish only and is a way of preserving fish through fermentation and has nothing to do with the nori wrapping(only some sushi are wrapped with nori and rolled) which is the only similarity between some kinds of sushi and korean kimbab.
Kimbab is never done with raw fish and is never fermented but is just wrapping laver/nori around rice, meats, vegetables.
I think contemporary sushi rolls with nori is definitely influenced by Korean kimbab and viceversa although they taste totally differently.
T.Lee
28-10-2004, 05:47 AM
yeah, but my korean history teach who moonlights as a sushi chef at a korean owned restaurant told me so!
he also told me that sake is from korea too, except koreans dont bother to filter it, we call it makoli, japanese just call it nigori sake.
thus, koreans > japanese! ha!
misterkurukuru
28-10-2004, 05:59 AM
NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!
decembersnow6
28-10-2004, 02:00 PM
:puzzled: yeah, but my korean history teach who moonlights as a sushi chef at a korean owned restaurant told me so!
he also told me that sake is from korea too, except koreans dont bother to filter it, we call it makoli, japanese just call it nigori sake.
thus, koreans > japanese! ha! :puzzled: this is not cool
:puzzled::puzzled::puzzled:
:puzzled: :puzzled: this is not cool
decembersnow6
29-10-2004, 09:24 AM
?????????????????
are we, koreans, so ashamed of our own history that we are rewritting it to fit whatever current mood fits?
i know we have some dark moments in our history.. however, i'm damned proud of it. all these talk about kumdo being korean.. tae kwon do being korean.. samurai being korean.. it only makes us look like freaking idiots. good or bad, it's our history and we shoud cherish it.
i agree.. crazy commie bastards..
bullet!! I love you man!! Finally I met a Korean person who're just simply proud and crude. Yeah, you're right. You Korean people SHOULD be just proud of yourself for what you are, period.
I thought traditional sushi was for fish only and is a way of preserving fish through fermentation and has nothing to do with the nori wrapping(only some sushi are wrapped with nori and rolled) which is the only similarity between some kinds of sushi and korean kimbab.
Kimbab is never done with raw fish and is never fermented but is just wrapping laver/nori around rice, meats, vegetables.
I think contemporary sushi rolls with nori is definitely influenced by Korean kimbab and viceversa although they taste totally differently.
Sushi = Korean. Or Korean influence, thus their credit. This claim again... For what I know at least, there are numerous claims of this kind by the Koreans... Samurai, Bushido, Kendo, Origami, Taewkondo, Katana, Sumo, Ninja, Sushi, Nara(the place), Tamagochi(a game), Karaoke, Bonsai, Sensu, Manga, Enka, Kadou, Sake, even some Celebrities in Japan... They are ALL from Korea according to them. There're not much left for the Japanese, are there?
As for Sushi... I'm sorry, but I've never heard that Sushi was had a Korean influence, I believe those are just Japanese. But I dont know actually. I did no research... But when and where did that influence take place?
PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.
WHo claimed that sushi=korean??? That's your insecurities talking. I was pointing out the differences between sushi and korean kimbab which are vastly different things although they've definitely influenced each other.
As for your generally prejudiced rants regarding Koreans claiming Japanese things as being originally Korean, the fact of the matter is that many "Japanese" things have been affected and have their origin from Chinese and KOrea culture. That's just a fact. It's certainly taken overboard from the Korean side but given contemporary raving idiots like Ishihara and politicians including Japanese PM worshipping class A war criminals at religious shrines, etc., as well as WWII atrocities, the overboard Korean claims are reflexive and absolutely innocuous in comparison to their Japanes couterpart.
In any case, I have problems with labeling things as "korean" or "japanese", since such nationalistic notions are modern creations.
As with sushi, I've heard Japanese claim it was a technique of fermenting fish with vinegared rice that was learned from South East China. I just made an observation on this thread that contemporary sushi eaten at restauraunts aren't fermented for longkeeping at all but are eaten relatively fresh.
Sushi = Korean. Or Korean influence, thus their credit. This claim again... For what I know at least, there are numerous claims of this kind by the Koreans... Samurai, Bushido, Kendo, Origami, Taewkondo, Katana, Sumo, Ninja, Sushi, Nara(the place), Tamagochi(a game), Karaoke, Bonsai, Sensu, Manga, Enka, Kadou, Sake, even some Celebrities in Japan... They are ALL from Korea according to them. There're not much left for the Japanese, are there?
As for Sushi... I'm sorry, but I've never heard that Sushi was had a Korean influence, I believe those are just Japanese. But I dont know actually. I did no research... But when and where did that influence take place?
PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.
T.Lee
09-11-2004, 04:00 AM
chopsticks are from korea too.
rainmaker
09-11-2004, 05:54 AM
I am Korean but I have never heard Samurai is from Korea, Sushi is from Korea, or hell I don't even think Kendo is from Korea.. Most of Korean people I know that these are are all from Japan or at least give you a credit for developing this as Japanese thing !! Don't bother too much because of one personal opinion, there are always extrmist everywhere. I guess you still have not met our Greek friend yet, who believe everything in the whole world are originated from Greece....
Sushi = Korean. Or Korean influence, thus their credit. This claim again... For what I know at least, there are numerous claims of this kind by the Koreans... Samurai, Bushido, Kendo, Origami, Taewkondo, Katana, Sumo, Ninja, Sushi, Nara(the place), Tamagochi(a game), Karaoke, Bonsai, Sensu, Manga, Enka, Kadou, Sake, even some Celebrities in Japan... They are ALL from Korea according to them. There're not much left for the Japanese, are there?
As for Sushi... I'm sorry, but I've never heard that Sushi was had a Korean influence, I believe those are just Japanese. But I dont know actually. I did no research... But when and where did that influence take place?
PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.
rainmaker
09-11-2004, 05:55 AM
I am Korean but I have never heard Samurai is from Korea, Sushi is from Korea, or hell I don't even think Kendo is from Korea.. Most of Korean people I know that these are are all from Japan or at least give you a credit for developing this as Japanese thing !! Don't bother too much because of one personal opinion, there are always extrmist everywhere. I guess you still have not met our Greek friend yet, who believe everything in the whole world are originated from Greece....
But I still believe all hot chics are from Korea, hah~~~
DanDan
09-11-2004, 07:37 AM
sushi isn't korean. modern kumdo isn't korean. haedong kumdo is however. samurai...i've never heard anyone say that they are actually korean. udon isn't korean. tonkatsu isn't korean (every1 knows that and it's really popular in korea. i had it like everyday hehehe). katana, i believe isn't korean but was influenced by korean steel. and yea...some celebrities in japan are korean (BoA, SES, Sugar, etc). Some manga/anime these days are actually drawn in korea. Japanese hire Koreans to draw for them. and by nara...do you mean korea itself? cuz korea is korean (including Dokdo! japan claims dokdo is part of japan..in case you didn't know that).
Masahiro
09-11-2004, 08:30 AM
how 'bout the inverse: sushi is from japan but in korea they call it kimbap? shushi and kim bap are two different things. If i am in the mood for sushi, i wouldn't settle for kim bap. And vice versa! Thus, the logic is if one can not substitute the other, then they are not of equal. One more thing, I don't care much about what nationality the kendoist I come to know and compete with,whether they are koreans, japanese, african american, european, "cocky-asians" or whatever race they are. I am only fearful and careful of one type of person. .. ...those who do not have a good heart! I let those who are interested in politics deal with all that "wow, now they are saying samurais are from korea" or "are kumdo and kendo different, if so how do they contrast?" I try only to pay attention to do good kendo. And I enjoy kendo so much and continue to is due partly because I am comforted by the thought that they are many other just like me who do not judge the fruit until I see what's inside of it.
p.s. yes there are a lot of hot chicks from Korea! >__ <
bullet08
09-11-2004, 12:01 PM
In any case, I have problems with labeling things as "korean" or "japanese", since such nationalistic notions are modern creations.
i can't believe it's not butter.. i mean.. can't believe this thread is still going.. i also have problem with labeling things.
p.s. yes there are a lot of hot chicks from Korea! >__ <
i don't know.. i've seen some hot japanese chicks.. but, i do have to say on avg, there are more good looking korean chicks than japanese chicks.. but i'm not looking since i'm married to hot korean lady.. hmm.. LOL
bullet08
09-11-2004, 01:21 PM
PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.
if you are willing to talk about rape of nanking.. pearl harbor.. burma death march.. sunday brunch.. i'm willing to talk about above minor subjects.
sushi isn't korean. modern kumdo isn't korean. haedong kumdo is however. samurai...i've never heard anyone say that they are actually korean. udon isn't korean. tonkatsu isn't korean (every1 knows that and it's really popular in korea. i had it like everyday hehehe). katana, i believe isn't korean but was influenced by korean steel. and yea...some celebrities in japan are korean (BoA, SES, Sugar, etc). Some manga/anime these days are actually drawn in korea. Japanese hire Koreans to draw for them. and by nara...do you mean korea itself? cuz korea is korean (including Dokdo! japan claims dokdo is part of japan..in case you didn't know that).
I'm not sure about Dokdo (that's the island, right?). Yeah, I just listed up things that i know at least someone claimed to be of korean origins. And samurai.. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. Don't you know the Korean movie called Saulabi, or whatever? I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about. Ah, about that haedong kumdo, that's a made up...
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/koreawatcher/docs/haedong-ko.htm
BoA's cute. About Nara.. There's a place called Nara in Japan and some Korean said it was named by the Koreans in ancient time. That's why it's called Nara according to this guy. (Does Nara mean Korea?)
Mero, as for your claim regarding my prejudice, I only stated what I heard and asked simple questions. I also have problems lebelling stuff... BUT that's exatctly how "these" (I'm not saying all Koreans, not people here at least) nationalists establish their arguments, many "Japanese" things were influenced by the Korean, therefore "all" the stuff Japanese are actually Korean... and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.
DanDan
09-11-2004, 03:56 PM
I'm not sure about Dokdo (that's the island, right?). Yeah, I just listed up things that i know at least someone claimed to be of korean origins. And samurai.. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. Don't you know the Korean movie called Saulabi, or whatever? I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about. Ah, about that haedong kumdo, that's a made up...
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/koreawatcher/docs/haedong-ko.htm
BoA's cute. About Nara.. There's a place called Nara in Japan and some Korean said it was named by the Koreans in ancient time. That's why it's called Nara according to this guy. (Does Nara mean Korea?)
Mero, as for your claim regarding my prejudice, I only stated what I heard and asked simple questions. I also have problems lebelling stuff... BUT that's exatctly how "these" (I'm not saying all Koreans, not people here at least) nationalists establish their arguments, many "Japanese" things were influenced by the Korean, therefore "all" the stuff Japanese are actually Korean... and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.
yea..dokdo is the island
Nara means nation
u can read korean? that site is in korean...그것을어덯게믿니?
i live in the US so i'm not really "in touch" w/ korean entertainment other than music and some dramas. i kno that now a days, there are a lot of korean dramas about haedong kumdo and they are based on true stories like Jang Gilsan and my KENDO (not kumdo) teacher watches it so i don't think haedong kumdo is fake.
Whatever you supposedly heard you didn't hear it in this thread or even on this site. How the hell do you go from sushi to friggin Dokdo? Has anyone in this board claimed anything about Dokdo???
In fact, tell us please, when did anyone claim: "all the stuff Japanese are actually Korean" as you foolishly stated in your post?
btw. I pointed out your insecurities not your prejudices cause you're showcasing it by defensively blabbing on about claims no one has made in this thread.
If you have questions then just be nice about it and ask. People will answer. Just chill with hotheaded hostilities and check your personal baggage at the door and don't drag it into this thread.
I'm not sure about Dokdo (that's the island, right?). Yeah, I just listed up things that i know at least someone claimed to be of korean origins. And samurai.. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. Don't you know the Korean movie called Saulabi, or whatever? I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about. Ah, about that haedong kumdo, that's a made up...
http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/koreawatcher/docs/haedong-ko.htm
BoA's cute. About Nara.. There's a place called Nara in Japan and some Korean said it was named by the Koreans in ancient time. That's why it's called Nara according to this guy. (Does Nara mean Korea?)
Mero, as for your claim regarding my prejudice, I only stated what I heard and asked simple questions. I also have problems lebelling stuff... BUT that's exatctly how "these" (I'm not saying all Koreans, not people here at least) nationalists establish their arguments, many "Japanese" things were influenced by the Korean, therefore "all" the stuff Japanese are actually Korean... and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.
Whatever you supposedly heard you didn't hear it in this thread or even on this site. How the hell do you go from sushi to friggin Dokdo? Has anyone in this board claimed anything about Dokdo???
In fact, tell us please, when did anyone claim: "all the stuff Japanese are actually Korean" as you foolishly stated in your post?
btw. I pointed out your insecurities not your prejudices cause you're showcasing it by defensively blabbing on about claims no one has made in this thread.
If you have questions then just be nice about it and ask. People will answer. Just chill with hotheaded hostilities and check your personal baggage at the door and don't drag it into this thread.
Uh.. That's a strong one you got there. I didnt mention Dokdo(check my post), I think that's a purely political matter, which I detest. About that statement, I've read some articles in Korean which stated that exactly.
..did i come as rude? Maybe I did.. didnt introduce myself or anything. Sorry for that. And hostilities, you call that.. Yeah, I won't deny it, but your wrong... I'm chill. I'm chill like a wine man... Come on, I won't claim this out of nothing. You can search Google and find thousands of articles and websites and those "history of Kumdo" madeups, in case you didn't notice that. Isn't it kinda natural these make me feel somewhat insecure? These guys are bringin politics to a sport man. Or is it just that politicians suddenly started to practice Kendo. Um.. That'd make sense.
DanDan, no unfortunately i cannot read Korean. I have a translater that works for Korean(and English and Spanish too). About haedong, i actually don't know cuz that's the only source I read... Maybe you can research on it when you go back to your Nara. :smiley: Aha..
Btw, yeah, you're right mero. I shouldn't have brought those issues other than Kendo(and Sushi..) in this thread. Forget those please.
Nanbanjin
09-11-2004, 10:19 PM
I'm chill. I'm chill like a wine man...
I resent your insistance that wine is chill. I have it on very good advice that red wine is best served at room temperature, so get your facts straight before you go posting your right-winged nationalistic views on wine all over the place!
Oh, and for your information Kendo originated in Australia. As did Geisha. And Mt. Fuji.
bullet08
10-11-2004, 08:57 AM
and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.
i'm sorry.. i guess my english isn't so good..
PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.
did you or did you not ask some koreans to tell you about things such as you have posted?
my reply to that was if you are willing to talk about what japanese folks did back when.. i'm willing to talk about what and why koreans are saying everything came from korea.. hmm.. let me know if i mis-understood you. seems like plain english to me. maybe you didn't mean to type those things?
DanDan
10-11-2004, 12:47 PM
u kno in the book 1421 by Gavin Menzies, he claims that America was first discovered by the Chinese and the Koreans drew the 1st world map (Kangnido). it also says that Norwegian fisherman were found to have some Korean DNA and Native Americans were found to have Chinese DNA. Interesting isn't it? yea...i didn't exactly read this on my own free will...it was for school...but it's a New York Times bestseller. it's like 500 pages long and I kinda procrastinated so i had to read it in 3 days. hehehe ^^;
yea...that was kinda random...but i thought it was slightly relevant to the topic...
dorkusxmaximus
10-11-2004, 05:01 PM
would that explain why norwegians are so good-looking? :cool:
i'm sorry.. i guess my english isn't so good..
did you or did you not ask some koreans to tell you about things such as you have posted?
my reply to that was if you are willing to talk about what japanese folks did back when.. i'm willing to talk about what and why koreans are saying everything came from korea.. hmm.. let me know if i mis-understood you. seems like plain english to me. maybe you didn't mean to type those things?
Dude... To be honest, no, I can't understand what you're writing. But I can guess what you meant, and I can imagine your thought process. Seems like you have a seriously distorted image of the Japanese in general...(but that's also my stereotype of Koreans..) This is only my imagination: you saw a Japanese guy seemingly accusing the Koreans for this Kumdo issue and you automatically assumed he's putting aside the past issues and trying to cover up those while ranting about small issues like kendo/kumdo... Is my understanding correct? I still don't get it though. Why did you bring those up? There's no connection between them. What's the logic behind it?
http://www.kumdo.com/ushwarangkwan/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Jesus Christ man... Check this out. I'm sick of this...
Nanbanjin
11-11-2004, 12:29 AM
http://www.kumdo.com/ushwarangkwan/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Jesus Christ man... Check this out. I'm sick of this...
Yes, we're all sick of the kendo vs. kumdo discussion so why keep scratching at this unhealed wound?
The znkr stance on the issue has been until recently to make no comment. You can find their current official statement on the origins of kendo here (http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/AJKF-Perspective-of-Kendo.htm) and here (Japanese) (http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/w-kendo/index.html)
Yes, we're all sick of the kendo vs. kumdo discussion so why keep scratching at this unhealed wound?
Cause he's a damn troll.
Yes, we're all sick of the kendo vs. kumdo discussion so why keep scratching at this unhealed wound?
Cuz there are just too many Koreans claiming nonsense.
A lot of Japanese claim nonsense and so do Americans as does every nationality in the world. But you don't see me trolling and flaming Japanese, Americans in threads like an a$$. Your categorical perception of what Koreans claim is a figment of your insecurities.
Cuz there are just too many Koreans claiming nonsense.
shotoblogger
12-11-2004, 02:18 AM
As for your generally prejudiced rants regarding Koreans claiming Japanese things as being originally Korean, the fact of the matter is that many "Japanese" things have been affected and have their origin from Chinese and KOrea culture. That's just a fact.I'd be interested to find out what things in Japanese culture were influenced by Korean culture that wasn't actually "China via Korea." So far, most of the things you have suggested Mero, such as the Korean origin of taekwondo, are inaccurate.
You should read Alex Kerr's "Lost Japan." He makes a convincing case that aspects of Japanese culture are influenced by South Pacific islanders and their native landscape and not China or Korea.
It's certainly taken overboard from the Korean side but given contemporary raving idiots like Ishihara and politicians including Japanese PM worshipping class A war criminals at religious shrines, etc., as well as WWII atrocities, the overboard Korean claims are reflexive and absolutely innocuous in comparison to their Japanes couterpart.This is a failure in logic. The Japanese embrace of WWII offences is reprehensible, but responding by claiming that aspects of Japanese culture have Korean origins when they don't is completely non-sensical.
In any case, I have problems with labeling things as "korean" or "japanese", since such nationalistic notions are modern creations.That's a bunch of BS. If by "modern" you mean a period from the mid-1800s on, that's just completely ridiculous. Even if you mean a period from the 1500s on. Japan is an island, for crying out loud, and wasn't a collection of small competing kingdoms since a very long time ago, if you could say it ever was.
decembersnow6
12-11-2004, 05:28 AM
here, i will solve this hostility once and for all by singing a song...
*sings*--what the world needs now, it's love, sweet love
it's the only thing that the world, has too little of...
decembersnow6
12-11-2004, 05:29 AM
does that help??
I'll tell you what. You come up with your own propositions contextualized to topic of this thread supported with evidence and reason and I'll give you my take on it.
Breaking up posts and brainlessly arguing against strawman positions with juvenile red herring, false dichotomy arguments isn't something that I stopped doing since I wrote a 2 page paper in junior high school. Good grief.
I'd be interested to find out what things in Japanese culture were influenced by Korean culture that wasn't actually "China via Korea." So far, most of the things you have suggested Mero, such as the Korean origin of taekwondo, are inaccurate.
You should read Alex Kerr's "Lost Japan." He makes a convincing case that aspects of Japanese culture are influenced by South Pacific islanders and their native landscape and not China or Korea.
This is a failure in logic. The Japanese embrace of WWII offences is reprehensible, but responding by claiming that aspects of Japanese culture have Korean origins when they don't is completely non-sensical.
That's a bunch of BS. If by "modern" you mean a period from the mid-1800s on, that's just completely ridiculous. Even if you mean a period from the 1500s on. Japan is an island, for crying out loud, and wasn't a collection of small competing kingdoms since a very long time ago, if you could say it ever was.
DanDan
12-11-2004, 08:48 AM
-kimchi (kimuchi)
-steel
-Buddhism
they all came from korea to japan.
and how do u kno Japanese things weren't influenced by other countries? just as any other country in the world, i'm sure Japan was in some way influenced by other countries.
does that help??
What song is that?
A lot of Japanese claim nonsense and so do Americans as does every nationality in the world. But you don't see me trolling and flaming Japanese, Americans in threads like an a$$. Your categorical perception of what Koreans claim is a figment of your insecurities.
You're quite a psychologist mero. A figment of my insecurities. Haha. Just type in "Kumdo" or "Haedong Kumdo" in google.
rainmaker
13-11-2004, 03:17 AM
Let's stop this nonsense.. I don't care if you are Korean or Japanese. But arguing this in public and humiliating each others do not sounds like real Kendoka. I am sure Nob and Mero you are both nice person when you talk each others. Please try to understand each others and be patient when you chat on website. You are not trying to solve problem or address issue here but end up with humiliating your own character and your own country. Even though I am Korean, I am so fond of many Japanese people and their culture. I am sure others will feel same if they understand our culture & history better.
kenshi_kr
13-11-2004, 12:31 PM
Alot of you have nihon-fever and cant exactly say you're unbiased in your opinions. I dont mind that but i'd just like to say that although i understand your love for japan, their culture isnt exactly superior in any way or form that suggests they could not have been influenced by other cultures (yes even from korea). Why do alot of you get so worked up about say, something like 'samurai is korean'. If you are japanese, fine say what you want but if you are american, english or any other why do you care what korea says. I wouldnt care if someone told me Americans claim benz is really theirs or japan says they invented baseball. Of course its obscene and so far from the truth but why would i care. What i care is who says what about korea. So WHY? do all of you gaijins care what korea says about japan. You do realise most of their seemingly outrageous comments are directed at japan? And of course many know the reasons behind them. Its just i find it quite amusing when say.. an american starts slandering korea because korea claims kendo is theirs and whatnot. I think japan is a cool country coz c'mon.. it represents asia in its entirety. No other asian nation comes close to its economic and cultural power. (Perhaps other than china but i think they're alot poorer than the japs.. although they're about to experience a massive boom.. neway) None of you can experience the resentment towards the japs from reading about what the japs did to korea because you are not korean. They came in and tried to eradicate the korean nation. They burnt our history. They gave us jap names and made us speak japanese. They raped our women, as young as 12 and made them into sex slaves for the damn jap army. They tortured our men/women just to see how much pain a person could withstand and drove huge iron stakes into the middle of our roads to cut off our 'ki' which the japanese believed we had alot of. None of you can understand the bitterness and resentment bcoz it wasnt your country. They tried to rid us of our identity and if you are any patriot you should be able to understand our emotions. I wasnt even there but hearing about what the japs did makes me wanna kick every damn jap in the ass. BUT i dont hate them. Just hate what they did. No doubt this is no reason for koreans to spread outrageous propaganda regarding our history and try to take what is some other nations as ours. I mean they do make damn good cars and of course did give us kendo. But this illusion japan is a superior cultural identity by some people is obscure to me. Every country had warriors. Why is the samurai so special? Coz they committed suicide after defeat? Bcoz of honor? Hey european knights had honour, they had a code of conduct. They played with swords. but howcome noone mentions them. Perhaps an example of the power of japan's modern culture.
DanDan
13-11-2004, 02:23 PM
seriously...Koreans these days like Japan and Japanese these days like Korea. At least the younger generations.
Hisham
14-11-2004, 08:28 AM
Hey european knights had honour, they had a code of conduct. They played with swords. but howcome noone mentions them.
From who did the europeans get chivalery and many other usefull things for that matter?the people that did are even more marginalized and forgoten when it comes to history,there due credit erased.European knights are found in fiction and non-fiction books ,movies games ....etc
Anyway this would be the subject of another thread in a different forum.
Reikon
15-11-2004, 08:31 PM
Kendo comes from Kenjutsu. Which is Japanese. While sword fighting in it's self probably didn't come from Japan, the style of sword fighting (movement, etc.) that is practiced in Kendo/Kumdo comes from Japan.
I got a few things that I wanted to reply to (mixed quotes)
....were the ones practacing kendo(or kenjutsu in that time)..
Kenjutsu and Kendo are very different in a sense. Especially with the cutting aspect of Kenjutsu.
...sword techniques and philosophy originated in china...
While probably not being the first curved blade, the nihon daito is almost unique in it's idea of draw and cut in one movement.
...Karate originated in Japan and Taekwondo is a copy..
Te came from China to Okinawa, was modified and called Karate, and then went from Okinawa to Japan and then to Korea. (basically. I'm pretty sure it was a little more mixed up, but that is supposidly the 'official' line)
Now, 7/9 men who formed TKD were high ranking students in Shotokan Karate, hence why a crapload of the Katas and movement is the same. the other 2 were supposed to have been masters of Tae Kyon (Tae Kwon).
...chopsticks are from korea too....
I don't know if you're joking or not, but Chop Sticks came from chine as part of a confucian ideal that knives were objects of aggression and were not suited for eating.
I wish to hear nothing of my insecurities.
Alot of you have nihon-fever and cant exactly say you're unbiased in your opinions. I dont mind that but i'd just like to say that although i understand your love for japan, their culture isnt exactly superior in any way or form that suggests they could not have been influenced by other cultures (yes even from korea). Why do alot of you get so worked up about say, something like 'samurai is korean'. If you are japanese, fine say what you want but if you are american, english or any other why do you care what korea says. I wouldnt care if someone told me Americans claim benz is really theirs or japan says they invented baseball. Of course its obscene and so far from the truth but why would i care. What i care is who says what about korea. So WHY? do all of you gaijins care what korea says about japan. You do realise most of their seemingly outrageous comments are directed at japan? And of course many know the reasons behind them. Its just i find it quite amusing when say.. an american starts slandering korea because korea claims kendo is theirs and whatnot. I think japan is a cool country coz c'mon.. it represents asia in its entirety. No other asian nation comes close to its economic and cultural power. (Perhaps other than china but i think they're alot poorer than the japs.. although they're about to experience a massive boom.. neway) None of you can experience the resentment towards the japs from reading about what the japs did to korea because you are not korean. They came in and tried to eradicate the korean nation. They burnt our history. They gave us jap names and made us speak japanese. They raped our women, as young as 12 and made them into sex slaves for the damn jap army. They tortured our men/women just to see how much pain a person could withstand and drove huge iron stakes into the middle of our roads to cut off our 'ki' which the japanese believed we had alot of. None of you can understand the bitterness and resentment bcoz it wasnt your country. They tried to rid us of our identity and if you are any patriot you should be able to understand our emotions. I wasnt even there but hearing about what the japs did makes me wanna kick every damn jap in the ass. BUT i dont hate them. Just hate what they did. No doubt this is no reason for koreans to spread outrageous propaganda regarding our history and try to take what is some other nations as ours. I mean they do make damn good cars and of course did give us kendo. But this illusion japan is a superior cultural identity by some people is obscure to me. Every country had warriors. Why is the samurai so special? Coz they committed suicide after defeat? Bcoz of honor? Hey european knights had honour, they had a code of conduct. They played with swords. but howcome noone mentions them. Perhaps an example of the power of japan's modern culture.
first Japan does not even closely represent Asia, It might be the second or third most powerfull country on that continent and It is the second largest economie but it's the equivalent of saying the UK represents Europe in it's entirety. Not only are you forgetting about China but Also India ('the largest democracy in the world') , the Middle east (alhtough a bunch of not so powerfull states, they are the most important states in the world + entierly different culture) and lastly Russia an enormous country which is focused upon Europe even if the largest part lies in Asia.
My second comment is about the war crimes: "War is an odd thing, it is atrocious and horrible, but when we hear about these things we are all ready to start a new one." (the things you describe happen in every war, except for the searching for ki)
About war crimes 60 years ago I think 'well it happened, see that it doesn't happen again, don't try to blaim this or that group of ppl of which most weren't even born when the events took place' (it would like if I would hate all germans now, kinda pointless isn't it)