holy cow, now they are saying Samurai actually from Korea?

[kawa]

"The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......

http://www.hdgumdo.com/

under intro > President Greetings>

[yamaguchi]

According to DNA, We are all from Africa. So Samurai is from Africa too.
That's I want to say now, just hearing this news. but I am not mad. But I am getting tired to hear this kind things.
yamaguchi.

[Yoshito]

"The Samurang, under the command of general Uel Ji Moon Duk, fended off 2 million soldiers during the invasion of the Sui Dynasty. They also defeated 600,000 Tang soldiers at the Ahn Shi battle under the command of general Yang Man Choon. Some of the Samurang moved to Japan and they were known as Samurai as the pronunciation has been altered to accommodate the Japanese alphabet" ......

http://www.hdgumdo.com/

under intro > President Greetings>
I guess the guestion is, what is "NOT" from Korea...

[GrandCentral9]

Before you dismiss this paragraph as more Korean "propaganda," ask yourself this question:

What is a samurai?

The romanticized version springing from the Tokugawa Shogunate is a far cry from the bow and spear wielding horseman of the pre-bakufu days.

This is not to say that samurai originated in Korea or anything of that sort. However, if the first warrior ever to set foot in Japan was from Korea, doesn't the statement have some element of the truth? (Again, not to suggest that the first soldier in Japan was Korean... just playing out a hypothesis)

[Haowen]

According to DNA, We are all from Africa. So Samurai is from Africa too.
yamaguchi.

I wanted to say that the other time people were arguing if the Japanese came from Korea or from China. We all came from Africa! Or we could say we all had gills once upon a time so we all came from the ocean :)

I don't care if Ronald McDonald invented the samurai. I'd rather save the energy for concentrating on my own practice.

[mero]

The cited history is actually not that preposterous. Migration of warriors and people from the Korean peninsula to Japan over the course of history is documented and acknowleged by korean/japanese scholars. Japan and Korea share similarities in language root, food, genetics, heck even their dogs look alike.

BUT, using modern notions of nations to what happened that long ago is foolish. There was no "japan" and there was no "korea" that long ago. There were multiple nations and kingdoms appearing and disappearing over the centuries all over Asia.

Being obsessed with what came from where and which modern nation gets the credit for it is an exercise in futility.

[DanDan]

^their dogs look the same? do they taste the same too? i wanna try bo shin tang (dog soup) some day b4 i die

[mero]

You can't eat jindos dude. Some old men got sued for 8 thousand US dollars or something for eating a female Jindo dog in Korea a month or two ago! Plus indigenous Korean dogs are protected by law as Cultural Treasures. You can eat noorungees, yellow medium sized mutts grown for human consumption. But even noorungees go for like 2 thousand us dollars.


^their dogs look the same? do they taste the same too? i wanna try bo shin tang (dog soup) some day b4 i die

[007]

wait... but how come japanese have some chinese characters and korean doesn't??:confused2

[taganahan]

not too sure....but i think that the japanese people once bowed to the emperor of china. at least that's what my mandarin teacher told us.

~taganahan

[Lloromannic]

wait... but how come japanese have some chinese characters and korean doesn't??:confused2
I think they do (at least they have the ones for Kumdo)

[DanDan]

^they do use chinese characters in korean. it's called hanja. they don't use it much though. that's why 劍道 is read kumdo in korea and kendo in japan.

[007]

i think i read it somewhere that the japanese people (not the native ones) originally migrated from china. the emperor of the chin dynasty(the one who has fake soldiers in his tombs) forced a group of people to explore this "new territory"... and of course to escape the terrible rule of this emperor, they never came back and so....

dunno, this might be bogus

[Hisham]

I always thought that the warrior class in old Korea was called the Hoarang class.

[Lucien]

As has been mentioned, Koreans did and still do use Chinese characters. However, their script, Hangul, is one of the few wholly invented scripts in the world. I can't remember the time period now, but it was constructed by Korean courtiers.

Not wishing to fan the flames, but it is worth remembering that the Japanese culture is heavily influenced by Korea and other Asian countries. To give an extreme example, the Japanese royal family may well be Korean in origin. (Japanese scholars point to the keyhole graves used to bury royalty in both countries.)

One could also mention that Japanese pottery owes a debt to the potters abducted from Korea, its Confucian and Buddhist thought came from China, and that's just the beginning of the list.

Of course, Japan has its own traditions and culture, and we are lucky enough to benefit from it. But as a student of East Asian Studies, and lived for two years in Japan, I can't buy into the popularly expoused myth that Japan is unique, seperate and ultimately superior.

[Shazzanzzz]

Korea is the only country that tries to say everything is theirs, and try to prove it too, and ignoring some obvious facts at the same time.

The site is kinda funny, because, some Taiwanese sites says Kendo is originated in China too, but they said it in a different way. THey said the theory and concept originated from China, as there were documentations about 'jiandao' (kendo) from around 1000BC. They don't completely leave out the fact that kendo as we know it right now is japanese.

I don't think Japanese empire ever bowed to the emperor of china, they had their own emperor, which means they didn't recognize the chinese emperor as the son of heaven. Korea in the other hand, did. Han guo, the last korean kingdom, also how it is known right now, was established with help from china and were granted the 'kingdom' by the chinese emperor. That's why korean rulers were known as king instead emperor.

[yamaguchi]

If you are born in USA, don't you call yourself American? My mother side of family came from Korea or China 2000 years ago. We are sure about that. But there are no samurai at that time. I thought that there was no word for Samurai yet at that time. There were some kind organized millitary back then, but there were no word for Samurai yet.

When Ashikaga was coming up around 1180, Kamakura bakufu organized 1192, Samurai (which new kind gang at that time) was organized. I thought this is what I learn from history book. So Time did not much. There is no record about the word call Samurai before Ashikaga.



Also Japanese are not only come from China and Korean. Polynesian, Mongolian, Ainu, Hayato, and so on also.



Read Tale of Genji. There is no word call Samurai at that book.

It is like Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Isuzu, Suzuki, Sony, Cannon, Toshiba, Panasonic, Yamaha, Subaru, NEC, Koizumi, Godzilla, Mosura, me,

come from Korea? Enough is enough.

This is what I feel like.

Sorry

Yamaguchi. PS. I have Korean Friends, and I love Korean BBQ. We talk about this sometimes, but they said it is political. We should ignore.

[Hai_hai]

I guess the guestion is, what is "NOT" from Korea...
SPAM. It's from America.

[007]

ha ha kendo definately does not originate from china

[Shazzanzzz]

ha ha kendo definately does not originate from china

Shows how little you know about asian culture and history.

First of all, do, 道, is chinese, period, no one will ever try to say otherwise.

I would say more, but, i don't think you would be able to understand anyways, so i'm not gonna bother.

I dont' think Kendo is Chinese, but, that doesn't mean it doesn't have chinese origins. I suggest you read up on some Chinese philosophy before you reply.

[007]

hm let's see... since I AM A TAIWANESE and has been living in Taiwan for 12 years and practiced kendo there and never hear any taiwanese claim the ridiculous idea of kendo originating from china, THAT IS WHY I POST THAT COMMENT

[007]

Oh, and also, chinese philosophy has nothing to do with kendo

[kendokamax]

we all know who is the last samurai, but who is the first samurai?

[Zaphiel]

Oh, and also, chinese philosophy has nothing to do with kendo
well perhaps not chinese philosophy.....but culture.....japanese culture came from the chinese culture(as you can see when looking at the labguage and the writing for example)...and philosophy is defenitly a part of culture...so you could say chinese philosophy has something to do with kendo....
......
or does zen have something to do with kendo...well as the bushi had something to do with zen...as it was part of their everyday life.. and as they were the ones practacing kendo(or kenjutsu in that time) it has something to do with zen....and zen is group of the buddistic religion...which was found in china AND has a philosophy....i would say.......year kendo might have something to do with chinese philosophy.....................just a suggestion...:smiley:

[Haowen]

well perhaps not chinese philosophy.....but culture.....japanese culture came from the chinese culture(as you can see when looking at the labguage and the writing for example)...and philosophy is defenitly a part of culture...so you could say chinese philosophy has something to do with kendo....
......
or does zen have something to do with kendo...well as the bushi had something to do with zen...as it was part of their everyday life.. and as they were the ones practacing kendo(or kenjutsu in that time) it has something to do with zen....and zen is group of the buddistic religion...which was found in china AND has a philosophy....i would say.......year kendo might have something to do with chinese philosophy.....................just a suggestion...:smiley:

I'm not going to argue with all your points, most of which I disagree with, but I'd like to correct a factual error:

Zen buddhism was not "found" (developed?) in China. Buddhism was founded in India, and the particular style known as Zen buddhism was brought into China FROM India by Bodhidharma, who was an Indian monk.

[Shazzanzzz]

I can't find the site I first saw it at anymore, but, this is from another taiwanese club.

http://www.vghtpe.gov.tw/~swks2/doc1/kendoskill.htm

That's what i meant in my first post, i'm not saying kendo is chinese, never did. I was just commenting how the thread starter's site completely left out that kendo is japanese, while taiwanese site at least only said the sword techniques and philosophy originated in china.

As for zen buddhism, it is very close to daoism from china. Some people wonder if they have the same origins. Also, i think Laozi and buddha lived around the same time period, don't remember anymore.

The idea of 無 (mu, wu) is the basic philosophy of kendo, and it's the same for daoism. Zen Buddhism tend to use the word 空 (emptiness) more i think.

and I mean, 道 in 劍道 gives it away pretty easily what philosophy it's based on, i think.

btw, 007, im taiwanese too... where you from in taiwan?

[007]

i am from taipei, u??

[007]

another proof to kendo is not from china is that if you watch all the sword techniques of china, it is all basically based on "extravegance" forms meaning that it's all for show and entertainment for the public but kendo is on the other hand... more of a martial art for the public?? and the swords from china are completely different from the swords from Japan.

an observation: i think that people will try to claim something sucessful as something that they discovered first, like kendo or paper or the compass and it's just human nature. Although it can be frustrating to the other sides...

[GrandCentral9]

[QUOTE=Shazzanzzz] Korea is the only country that tries to say everything is theirs, and try to prove it too, and ignoring some obvious facts at the same time. [QUOTE]

Check out the Japanese/Korean dispute over the Dokto islands... Korea isn't the only country ignoring obvious facts and trying to claim something as its own ;)

[Lloromannic]

an observation: i think that people will try to claim something sucessful as something that they discovered first, like kendo or paper or the compass and it's just human nature. Although it can be frustrating to the other sides...
For example the adjustable wrench is know as "english wrench" i many countrries but it's actually swedish, as well as the design for the coke bottle.

[DanDan]

Check out the Japanese/Korean dispute over the Dokto islands... Korea isn't the only country ignoring obvious facts and trying to claim something as its own ;)there's also a dispute between the koreans and chinese about their history...something about the koguryo kingdom...

[mero]

Because Korea was a scholarly agricultural society where scholarship was a more revered trait for the king than militarism. Korean Kings were steeped in the classical letters all throughout its last millenium and military concerns were left for the lesser subordinates.

Japan had a similar royal court during Heian era. But the country bumpkin warlords overran things ushering militarism and warmongering, etc.. The samurai feudal system is created and the rest is history.

I think it was around 1600's that a Korean king commissioned creation of the korean, phonetic alphabet rather than relying on CHinese characters or Chinese inspired script.


wait... but how come japanese have some chinese characters and korean doesn't??:confused2

[Kendo-Militia]

WHO CARES. We are all from Africa. So therefore Kendo must have originated in AFRICA

[mero]

What a joke. Ignoring facts indeed. China didn't grant kingdomship to KOrea. And what the hell is Han guo??? There never was a "han guo" kingdom in all of korean history. You should know better by even just looking at the chracters for "han guo". Good grief. Go flaunt your ignorance elsewhere.

Thousands and thousands of Chinese peasant horde armies were butchered and held back by Korean kingdoms all throughout history for milleniums.

The only conquering foreign army were the Mongolians who forced Korean princes to marry Mongolian princesses and respected sovereignty of Korean kingdom.

China was used by Korean kingdoms to conquer other koreans kingdoms during times of war but that was about it. China always recognized sovereignty of Korea as a refined and civilized neighbor all throughout history.


Korea is the only country that tries to say everything is theirs, and try to prove it too, and ignoring some obvious facts at the same time.

The site is kinda funny, because, some Taiwanese sites says Kendo is originated in China too, but they said it in a different way. THey said the theory and concept originated from China, as there were documentations about 'jiandao' (kendo) from around 1000BC. They don't completely leave out the fact that kendo as we know it right now is japanese.

I don't think Japanese empire ever bowed to the emperor of china, they had their own emperor, which means they didn't recognize the chinese emperor as the son of heaven. Korea in the other hand, did. Han guo, the last korean kingdom, also how it is known right now, was established with help from china and were granted the 'kingdom' by the chinese emperor. That's why korean rulers were known as king instead emperor.

[mero]

I agree with you. Samurai didn't come from Korea. Samurai didn't exist until after 1300, 1400's or so which was beginning of Yi dynasty in Korea long AFTER the Samurangs were long dead and gone.

Furthermore, there was no "korea" and "japan" in those ancient times. THere were multiple scattered asian kingdoms throughout Asia. Different languages were used by different Chinese, Korean, Japanese kingdoms. What we know now as China, Korea and Japan are modern constructions.


If you are born in USA, don't you call yourself American? My mother side of family came from Korea or China 2000 years ago. We are sure about that. But there are no samurai at that time. I thought that there was no word for Samurai yet at that time. There were some kind organized millitary back then, but there were no word for Samurai yet.

When Ashikaga was coming up around 1180, Kamakura bakufu organized 1192, Samurai (which new kind gang at that time) was organized. I thought this is what I learn from history book. So Time did not much. There is no record about the word call Samurai before Ashikaga.



Also Japanese are not only come from China and Korean. Polynesian, Mongolian, Ainu, Hayato, and so on also.



Read Tale of Genji. There is no word call Samurai at that book.

It is like Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Isuzu, Suzuki, Sony, Cannon, Toshiba, Panasonic, Yamaha, Subaru, NEC, Koizumi, Godzilla, Mosura, me,

come from Korea? Enough is enough.

This is what I feel like.

Sorry

Yamaguchi. PS. I have Korean Friends, and I love Korean BBQ. We talk about this sometimes, but they said it is political. We should ignore.

[mero]

Well, you have boneheaded Chinese claims(exhibit A: Shazz)

You also have boneheaded Japanese claims: single edged sword originated in Japan and Korean swords are kitchen knives, Karate originated in Japan and Taekwondo is a copy, Koreans are criminals, etc..

There's ignorance on all sides.

[007]

China was used by Korean kingdoms to conquer other koreans kingdoms during times of war but that was about it. China always recognized sovereignty of Korea as a refined and civilized neighbor all throughout history.
uhh... now i think u are going too far with your korean nationalism, China a sovereignty of Korea?? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

[DanDan]

no...it had sum10 to do w/ china claiming that some korean kingdom was actually chinese and koreans are really angry that the chinese are trying to change the korean history their also mad about how the chinese treat north korean refugees. I mean north koreans have a hard life. why make it any harder?

[GrandCentral9]

uhh... now i think u are going too far with your korean nationalism, China a sovereignty of Korea?? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.
Reading comprehension is a lost art...

A sentence that states "X recognized sovereignty of Y" means that X acknowledged Y as a sovereign nation... Maybe you've confused sovereignty with suzerainty?

[Zaphiel]

I'm not going to argue with all your points, most of which I disagree with, but I'd like to correct a factual error:

Zen buddhism was not "found" (developed?) in China. Buddhism was founded in India, and the particular style known as Zen buddhism was brought into China FROM India by Bodhidharma, who was an Indian monk.you may be right i don't know.......but can you agree with what i said about the philoophy coming (if you want) in second place from china...?
aaahhh...and yes i will not discuss where buddism is from...and you missunderstood me with the found thing.......i meant zen has a something to do with konfuzius...who came from (south)china.....but from china...

[mero]

No YOU've got to be kidding ME. Reading comprehension is a good thing. I think you need to look up what sovereignty means.

p.s. Thanks GrandCentral.


uhh... now i think u are going too far with your korean nationalism, China a sovereignty of Korea?? YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

[Shazzanzzz]

Well, you have boneheaded Chinese claims(exhibit A: Shazz)

You also have boneheaded Japanese claims: single edged sword originated in Japan and Korean swords are kitchen knives, Karate originated in Japan and Taekwondo is a copy, Koreans are criminals, etc..

There's ignorance on all sides.


Mero... I was wondering where you were, haha. Thought you would come in and say something after i made that post...

But uh.. i never said any of those tihngs u claimed i said, it's other people. One sided sword is the word knife in chinese, believe or not.

But actually, i did say some stuff wrong in that post. They didn't do that for the last kingdom, i think it's their first unified kingdom, can't remember exactly. But, i remember that they did help establish that kingdom and was recognized (better word than granted?) by the chinese emperor as a kingdom.

Unlike Korean history, korean conflicts or dealings with china was NEVER any major concerns in chinese history, so, i won't be able to tell u when china attacked korean kingdoms and such or helped whom. As far as i know, in the years of great chinese empires, korea always paid tributes to china and sent scholars to china as students, especially tang dynasty.

You learn what koreans people wrote, i learned my stuff from what chinese people wrote. People write history! did u ever think of that? Maybe, just MAYBE they wrote something different.

When i was in korea the past summer, some artifacts used Chinese Emperor years, can you tell me why? I was wondering.

[mero]

You're tripping all over yourself there. You always seem to confuse arguments and misread sentences. It's a bit frustrating but perhaps English isn't your first language which is fine. Let me break it down for you so can follow more easily:

1. My "claims" that you're responding to were the claims I described as boneheaded Japanese claims. YOUR own boneheaded claims about hanguo and China helping to establish it and such sinocentric garbage were in your last post. You should read it, then read my response and give your response if you have any. You haven't touched the substance of my last post yet.

2. Regarding your new question in your last post: during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. This is all over Chinese historic documents where Korea is described as a place of refinement and learning. Korea on the other hand recognized the power of the sheer size and mass of China and coveted Chinese alliance in a progressively tumultuous world. Hence direct gifts and acknowlegements from the Chinese emperor were treasured by Korean Kings. OF course ALL of this, including tributes, sending scholars to China, etc., DO NOTHING about korean sovereignty which was recognized by China for thousands of years. My guess is that you're being effected by recent revisionist Chinese efforts to sinofy Korean history. Mind you that to this day Northeast China is inhabited by ethnic Koreans who still speak Korean.

That's two separate issues up there and I numbered them so you wouldn't confuse them. I'd like a response to both.


Mero... I was wondering where you were, haha. Thought you would come in and say something after i made that post...

But uh.. i never said any of those tihngs u claimed i said, it's other people. One sided sword is the word knife in chinese, believe or not.

But actually, i did say some stuff wrong in that post. They didn't do that for the last kingdom, i think it's their first unified kingdom, can't remember exactly. But, i remember that they did help establish that kingdom and was recognized (better word than granted?) by the chinese emperor as a kingdom.

Unlike Korean history, korean conflicts or dealings with china was NEVER any major concerns in chinese history, so, i won't be able to tell u when china attacked korean kingdoms and such or helped whom. As far as i know, in the years of great chinese empires, korea always paid tributes to china and sent scholars to china as students, especially tang dynasty.

You learn what koreans people wrote, i learned my stuff from what chinese people wrote. People write history! did u ever think of that? Maybe, just MAYBE they wrote something different.

When i was in korea the past summer, some artifacts used Chinese Emperor years, can you tell me why? I was wondering.

[Keith Hong]

- during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. -

No. Throughout its history, the Yi dynasty, or Chosun, made it clear that it considered itself China's subordinate nation.
Chosun had to, and always did, seek the Ming emperor's permission to designate a prince as the crown prince.
After siding with the Ming during the rise of the Ching dynasty, the king of Chosun, as an act of submission, bowed his head to the ground in the direction of the Ching emperor (way the hell away in Peking) so many times that his forehead bled.
Another evidence that Ching nor Chosun itself never considered the Yi dynasty as a completely sovereign, independent nation - when Japan decided to annex Korea at the end of the 19th century, it never fought Chosun itself. Japan fought Ching in the Sino-Japanese War. After winning it, Japan forced Ching to sign a treaty recognizing that Chosun would thereafter be an independent nation - independent that it would able to sign annex treaties with Japan.

These are things that are taught in Korean high school National History textbooks.

[Shazzanzzz]

- during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. -

No. Throughout its history, the Yi dynasty, or Chosun, made it clear that it considered itself China's subordinate nation.
Chosun had to, and always did, seek the Ming emperor's permission to designate a prince as the crown prince.
After siding with the Ming during the rise of the Ching dynasty, the king of Chosun, as an act of submission, bowed his head to the ground in the direction of the Ching emperor (way the hell away in Peking) so many times that his forehead bled.
Another evidence that Ching nor Chosun itself never considered the Yi dynasty as a completely sovereign, independent nation - when Japan decided to annex Korea at the end of the 19th century, it never fought Chosun itself. Japan fought Ching in the Sino-Japanese War. After winning it, Japan forced Ching to sign a treaty recognizing that Chosun would thereafter be an independent nation - independent that it would able to sign annex treaties with Japan.

These are things that are taught in Korean high school National History textbooks.

THANK YOU

As for Mero, perhaps you don't know korean anyways and are just reading stuff online?

I confuse arguments and misread? Always seem like you're the one doing so, saying false claims all the time, and showing how you can never have a polite argument with anyone.

[mero]

So when was Korean soveriegnty ever not acknowleged by China?

chirp.. chirp... chirp...


THANK YOU

As for Mero, perhaps you don't know korean anyways and are just reading stuff online?

I confuse arguments and misread? Always seem like you're the one doing so, saying false claims all the time, and showing how you can never have a polite argument with anyone.

[mero]

First of all everything you wrote doesn't negate the fact that China recognized Korea as an independent and separate nation with its own soverignty. China always considered Korea to be a fellow civilized nation, to be bullied at times but never subsumes under China itself. NOTHING you wrote undermines this.

Also, the Ching dynasty was not "Chinese". They were Manchus and hated by the populous. THey spoke a different language, came from a different genetic stock, different historic heritage, ect.. Nonetheless, the Ching never considered Korea to be part of China without its own sovereignty.

Regarding Japanese annexation, the Yi dynasty was ALWAYS a self-governed, independent nation. It was weak but never subsumed as part of China. The Sino-Japanese War only proves that both nations were competing for control over Chosun which was a weak nation easily conquerable at the turn of the century. In any case, the Japanese also fought the Russians for Korea also which also proves that Russia wanted in the action to conquer Korea. None of this belies the fact that Korea was independent nation even at the end of the Yi dynasty.

Korean highschool textbooks never states Korea was started by China nor does it support Chinese revisionist history.


- during the Yi dynasty, China and Korea had long established and acknowleged each others as fellow civilized nations. -

No. Throughout its history, the Yi dynasty, or Chosun, made it clear that it considered itself China's subordinate nation.
Chosun had to, and always did, seek the Ming emperor's permission to designate a prince as the crown prince.
After siding with the Ming during the rise of the Ching dynasty, the king of Chosun, as an act of submission, bowed his head to the ground in the direction of the Ching emperor (way the hell away in Peking) so many times that his forehead bled.
Another evidence that Ching nor Chosun itself never considered the Yi dynasty as a completely sovereign, independent nation - when Japan decided to annex Korea at the end of the 19th century, it never fought Chosun itself. Japan fought Ching in the Sino-Japanese War. After winning it, Japan forced Ching to sign a treaty recognizing that Chosun would thereafter be an independent nation - independent that it would able to sign annex treaties with Japan.

These are things that are taught in Korean high school National History textbooks.

[nalogg]

Last year in the playoffs there were more "canadians" on the tampa bay team, than there were on toronto. but nobody cared....

My point is....

nobody cares, and if you do
get over yourself, we all originate from the same descent

oh hockey! please come back!
:down:

[litige]

Last year in the playoffs there were more "canadians" on the tampa bay team, than there were on toronto. but nobody cared....
:down:

Woaw, I cared, that's why I was a lighthing "partisans", especially with two quebecois on the team.

[Hisham]

i meant zen has a something to do with konfuzius...who came from (south)china.....but from china...A humble try to shed some light on Zen origins:Zen buddhism or Chan ( in mandarin ) buddhism has nothing to do with the confucian thought ,Chan buddhism originated in the shaolin temple:http://english.yinyangandtaichichuan.org/bodhidharma.html

[mero]

Damn CHinese revisionists. THey're the worse.

[bullet08]

according to popular story, cho-sun was name given to korea by chinese emperor. china was viewed as 'middle country' between earth and heaven.. maybe chinese folks still believe that..

according to another popular story, japanese annexation of korea was actually due to part of korean royal family. this part of royal family actually invited japanese troops to protect themselves from other koreans who wanted them out of the power..

now.. what does all these have to do with kendo?

according to another popular story.. when chinese nationalists first got to taiwan after they got their ass kicked by reds.. there weren't even handful of people who could speak chinese on that island.. they were all speaking japanese, native folks on taiwan that is. does that mean modern taiwanese are actually living off japanese island? if so.. why are the red china still think of taiwan as theirs?

everything we read from book.. are what they are.. someone's perspective or twisted imagination of what they thought has happened back in history. does it really matter now?

[mero]

Where did you hear all this from? I'd be interested if there's real sources behind these stories. But as far as I know:

Chosun was a moniker that existed well before the Yi dynasty. It was not named by the Chinese emperor but chosen by the Yi dynasty to embue antiquity onto itself.

Japanese annexation of Korea was not by invitation by the royal family. That's pretty ignorant. Queen Min was murdered by Japanese agents and the rest of the royalty took refuge in the Russian embassy until they were taken to Japan. No invitation there.

As for Taiwan, the natives speak their own language. THey still speak it. Japanese was only introduced en mass during colonization.

Where did you hear all this?


according to popular story, cho-sun was name given to korea by chinese emperor. china was viewed as 'middle country' between earth and heaven.. maybe chinese folks still believe that..

according to another popular story, japanese annexation of korea was actually due to part of korean royal family. this part of royal family actually invited japanese troops to protect themselves from other koreans who wanted them out of the power.

now.. what does all these have to do with kendo?

according to another popular story.. when chinese nationalists first got to taiwan after they got their ass kicked by reds.. there weren't even handful of people who could speak chinese on that island.. they were all speaking japanese, native folks on taiwan that is. does that mean modern taiwanese are actually living off japanese island? if so.. why are the red china still think of taiwan as theirs?

everything we read from book.. are what they are.. someone's perspective or twisted imagination of what they thought has happened back in history. does it really matter now?

[007]

according to popular story, cho-sun was name given to korea by chinese emperor. china was viewed as 'middle country' between earth and heaven.. maybe chinese folks still believe that..

according to another popular story, japanese annexation of korea was actually due to part of korean royal family. this part of royal family actually invited japanese troops to protect themselves from other koreans who wanted them out of the power..

now.. what does all these have to do with kendo?

according to another popular story.. when chinese nationalists first got to taiwan after they got their ass kicked by reds.. there weren't even handful of people who could speak chinese on that island.. they were all speaking japanese, native folks on taiwan that is. does that mean modern taiwanese are actually living off japanese island? if so.. why are the red china still think of taiwan as theirs?

everything we read from book.. are what they are.. someone's perspective or twisted imagination of what they thought has happened back in history. does it really matter now?
since i'm taiwanese, i shall clear this up... china gave taiwan away to Japan when Japan invaded China so, most of the taiwanese at that time speak japanese. HOwever, when Mao's army forced Cheung kai-shek's army or the nationalists to taiwan, manderin chinese was introduced. Yet this doesn't mean that nobody spoke chinese before the nationalists came, it was just uncommon. Usually, those who speak Japanese are thought to have a higher education and better family background.

p.s.: although i do not like china very much but it is known throughout other parts of the world that the chinese is the oldest civilization in asia.

[Kikuchiyo]

I wish I could debate violently the origins of my culture. Too bad Romanians aren't really known for much other than Vlad Tepes and Transylvania. Maybe I should look into that one day. Somehow I feel like a leech sometimes, like I have to get all my culture from another country. Kind of sad. Maybe I should start a huge rumor on how Romanians actually invented fighting... period. Yeah that's right, back in the day there just weren't enough sheep to go around so good old Mihai got mad at his neighbor peter and wanted to point out how many more sheep Peter had, but ended up extending his arm a little to fast as he was pointing. WAM Right in the old kisser. So after Peter got up, he returned the favor right back, and that's how all the death and havoc in the world began. 2 silly romanian sheep herders. They also invented socialism too. It's was always better when the sheep were divided eaqually among all. All those old cultures that 'claim' to have invented wrestling and boxing, nah, all liars. Kung Fu, all just a sham. Kendo, pfft yeah right, peter started that one when he picked up his staff to hit mihai, assuming perfect kamae and exhibiting wonderful te no uchi, except back then it was called 'strangling the farm chicken.' Yup.

[bullet08]

Where did you hear all this from? I'd be interested if there's real sources behind these stories. But as far as I know:

Chosun was a moniker that existed well before the Yi dynasty. It was not named by the Chinese emperor but chosen by the Yi dynasty to embue antiquity onto itself.

Japanese annexation of Korea was not by invitation by the royal family. That's pretty ignorant. Queen Min was murdered by Japanese agents and the rest of the royalty took refuge in the Russian embassy until they were taken to Japan. No invitation there.

As for Taiwan, the natives speak their own language. THey still speak it. Japanese was only introduced en mass during colonization.

Where did you hear all this?
when i was growing up in korea back in 70's in my history classes. it was common knowledge that jo-sun was name given to korea by china or whatever the name of that kingdom was back then after gen. yi back stabbed his own king. then he sent diplomat to china to make political tie with whatever that chinese kingdom was at that time. the chinese choose jo-sun since korea was east most country that recieved sun in the morning. back then japan was considered less than sea scum.

as far as japanese annexation, it's also common knowledge that we invited japanese into korea. and one of the jack ass sold the whole country to japanese for 100 won, or was it 200 won? might have been less.

normally winners write the story.. but since in this case korea nor japan won.. so who wrote the story? you mean korean history has already been revised since 1979? dang.. that's fast.

then again i hear korean kids are now saying north korea will never come down.. i think some jack ass said the same thing back in june 25th 1950, and sent all the soldiers on a leave since no one will start a war on sunday.

as for taiwan, i heard it from bio chem professor who went to taiwan after the war since majority of taiwanese soldiers had lack of vit-a and most ot them had night-blindness. mainly due to the promise that gen cheung gave to people who came to taiwan with him.. none shall go hungry and your belly will be filled with rice.. he forgot to tell them lack of certain vit in the diet will give them night blindness.

[Paburo]

this conversation is kind of pointless...

technically, whatever ancient culture who came up with a 'sword' is the legitimate inventor of the 'sword fighting'. and im sure it wasnt korea or china or japan. all cultures and nations through history have had warriors and a warrior class. NOT koreans nor chinese nor japanese came up with the concept of 'war', 'soldier', 'sword fighting' EITHER. thus, warriors are a universal concept, different in surface from culture to culture but equal in form.

now, SAMURAI as we ALL know them NOW, with their daisho, naginata/yari, kabuto, yoroi and bushido... are clearly from japanese descent. and its historically obvious that kendo derives from the japanese bushi/samurai.

having this in mind, i think theres isnt much to argue about...

[bullet08]

this conversation is kind of pointless...

technically, whatever ancient culture who came up with a 'sword' is the legitimate inventor of the 'sword fighting'. and im sure it wasnt korea or china or japan. all cultures and nations through history have had warriors and a warrior class. NOT koreans nor chinese nor japanese came up with the concept of 'war', 'soldier', 'sword fighting' EITHER. thus, warriors are a universal concept, different in surface from culture to culture but equal in form.

now, SAMURAI as we ALL know them NOW, with their daisho, naginata/yari, kabuto, yoroi and bushido... are clearly from japanese descent. and its historically obvious that kendo derives from the japanese bushi/samurai.

having this in mind, i think theres isnt much to argue about...i agree completely. however, if we all admit to that fact, there won't be anything to talk about when not in dojo/dojang. we could talk about technique.. but what good is it when one doesn't hae shinai in the hands and could actually work it out against someone else in bogu and ready to receive.. sigh.. it would be almost like playing chess in the head, or computer.. but what good is it when there is no joy of actually seeing someone in front of me.

[Keith Hong]

would be 'conditional autonomy' - that Chosun's independence and sovereignity existed at the whim and pleasure of whoever was in power in China.

Also, Taekwondo did derive from Shotokan Karate, not Taekyon. There's an American professor at Ehwa Women's University, an Olympic Taekwondo medalist, who's done the research and interviewed early Taekwondo pioneers and that's what they told him. It's no coincidence that almost all of them learned Karate in Japan during the occupation. It has indeed evolved into some thing different from Karate over the years, but we can't deny where it comes from.

Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.

[bullet08]

would be 'conditional autonomy' - that Chosun's independence and sovereignity existed at the whim and pleasure of whoever was in power in China.

Also, Taekwondo did derive from Shotokan Karate, not Taekyon. There's an American professor at Ehwa Women's University, an Olympic Taekwondo medalist, who's done the research and interviewed early Taekwondo pioneers and that's what they told him. It's no coincidence that almost all of them learned Karate in Japan during the occupation. It has indeed evolved into some thing different from Karate over the years, but we can't deny where it comes from.

Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.
are we, koreans, so ashamed of our own history that we are rewritting it to fit whatever current mood fits?

i know we have some dark moments in our history.. however, i'm damned proud of it. all these talk about kumdo being korean.. tae kwon do being korean.. samurai being korean.. it only makes us look like freaking idiots. good or bad, it's our history and we shoud cherish it.

i agree.. crazy commie bastards..

[Lloromannic]

I wish I could debate violently the origins of my culture. Too bad Romanians aren't really known for much other than Vlad Tepes and Transylvania.
There is also O-Zone.

[007]

are we, koreans, so ashamed of our own history that we are rewritting it to fit whatever current mood fits?

i know we have some dark moments in our history.. however, i'm damned proud of it. all these talk about kumdo being korean.. tae kwon do being korean.. samurai being korean.. it only makes us look like freaking idiots. good or bad, it's our history and we shoud cherish it.

i agree.. crazy commie bastards..
yes! i totally agree with you. Finally, here is a korean who is truly proud of being a korean.

[DanDan]

bullet08...u traitor...

haha jk


no one said that samurai couldn't hav been korean...they could've been anything. who knows?....who cares? we're all people. samurai were from Earth. There. that settles it.

[Hai_hai]

Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.
Communist political groups were already trying to get more members before the Korean War occurred. It just so happens that the Soviets ended up supporting these groups, then war, blah blah blah, they made it down to Inchon, blah, blah, blah, the US pushed them back, blah blah blah... there's a bunch of half-American, half-Korean families.

[DanDan]

^hahaha nice explanation hai_hai

[mero]

You have a weird masochistic perspective on Japan's atrocities against Korea, Taiwan, etc.. Kind of interesting but some very wrong facts I'd like to point out.

Chosun is a word that was used to describe Korea peninsula thousands of years before the actual kingdo existed. It was a term used by Chinese scholars before a CHinese emperor even existed. That's why its was used by the Yi dynasty to enbue itself with antiquity. It was not made up nor given to Korea by any Chinese emperor.

As for the inviting Japanese to Korea... I thought you said that Korean royalty invited the Japanese. In any case, "we" didn't invite the Japanese to Korea. At the turn of the century, Korea was a pawn caught up in tumultuous geopolitics. THere were various factions within Korea during those times: pro-Japanese, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian, anti-foreign factions, etc.. There were collaborators galore. Nonetheless "we" didn't invite the Japanese invasion. Such a statement is just insecure hyperbole and factually wrong.

As for Taiwan, well if you're korean you know how the Japanese Empire had their wonderful tendency of destroying cultures, language, religion, etc.. Not sure what your point is with this.


when i was growing up in korea back in 70's in my history classes. it was common knowledge that jo-sun was name given to korea by china or whatever the name of that kingdom was back then after gen. yi back stabbed his own king. then he sent diplomat to china to make political tie with whatever that chinese kingdom was at that time. the chinese choose jo-sun since korea was east most country that recieved sun in the morning. back then japan was considered less than sea scum.

as far as japanese annexation, it's also common knowledge that we invited japanese into korea. and one of the jack ass sold the whole country to japanese for 100 won, or was it 200 won? might have been less.

normally winners write the story.. but since in this case korea nor japan won.. so who wrote the story? you mean korean history has already been revised since 1979? dang.. that's fast.

then again i hear korean kids are now saying north korea will never come down.. i think some jack ass said the same thing back in june 25th 1950, and sent all the soldiers on a leave since no one will start a war on sunday.

as for taiwan, i heard it from bio chem professor who went to taiwan after the war since majority of taiwanese soldiers had lack of vit-a and most ot them had night-blindness. mainly due to the promise that gen cheung gave to people who came to taiwan with him.. none shall go hungry and your belly will be filled with rice.. he forgot to tell them lack of certain vit in the diet will give them night blindness.

[mero]

I certainly get your point but absence of conditions is not what determines sovereignty.

Sovereign nations, even weak and defenseless ones, can be limited by conditions galore and still be independent and soveriegn. In fact, from a geopolitical perspective sovereiegnty of ALL nations are always conditional. That's why kingdoms and nations sign treaties, engage in diplomacy, etc..

China was indeed powerful enough to conquer all its neighbors at whim. But that doesn't mean that Korea wasn't sovereign. That's not what "sovereign" means. Even China itself always considered Korea to be separate sovereign nation, albeit a pawn to be pushed around at times.


would be 'conditional autonomy' - that Chosun's independence and sovereignity existed at the whim and pleasure of whoever was in power in China.

Also, Taekwondo did derive from Shotokan Karate, not Taekyon. There's an American professor at Ehwa Women's University, an Olympic Taekwondo medalist, who's done the research and interviewed early Taekwondo pioneers and that's what they told him. It's no coincidence that almost all of them learned Karate in Japan during the occupation. It has indeed evolved into some thing different from Karate over the years, but we can't deny where it comes from.

Oh, Bullet08, the new revisionist, "nationalist" historians' take on the Korean War is that North Koreans didn't invade the South - they claim American imperialists invaded North Korea to strengthen their hold on the Korean peninsula and thus forced Koreans to fight their brethren.
I know, crazy commie bullsh*t - but that's what they're saying.

[mero]

Give me a break. As if I've forgotten about your reading comprehension gaff from before.


yes! i totally agree with you. Finally, here is a korean who is truly proud of being a korean.

[007]

ha! so if someone makes one mistake, they are not allow to voice their opinions anymore? You are exactly the kind of korean that people don't like, thinking that their country and cultrue is the best, the most superior and invented everything that is good and when you lose something, you would rather complain and say how koreans are always the targets of injustice than try to improve yourself from the loss.

p.s. to mero: it is truly pathetic if you will have to resort to personal attacks and explore on a mistake in an argument, this means that you do not have any response to the previous statements made against you.

[DanDan]

^u kno...ur post was actually a personal attack...and u r the one who's saying that "it is truly pathetic if you will have to resort to personal attacks and explore on a mistake in an argument, this means that you do not have any response to the previous statements made against you." maybe u should be following ur own ethics

[007]

monkey see, monkey do

[Hai_hai]

...You are exactly the kind of korean that people don't like, thinking that their country and cultrue is the best, the most superior and invented everything that is good and when you lose something, you would rather complain and say how koreans are always the targets of injustice than try to improve yourself from the loss...
Hmm, there's that kind of German, that kind of Austrian, that kind of British, that kind of French, that kind of American, that kind of Japanese, that kind of Chinese, that kind of <insert nationality here>...

Don't be such a stereo-typer. I'm stereo-typing you as the kind of moron who stereo-types in a bad way.

[007]

when is stereo typing ever good?

[Hai_hai]

when is stereo typing ever good?
When it's true, like me stereo-typing you as the type of person who makes bad stereo-types. Punk.

[bullet08]

mero.. just one question for you.. do you believe that north korea invade south on jun 25th 1950, or america first invaded north on that day?

[mero]

LOL. man, talk about insecure aggression. :D


ha! so if someone makes one mistake, they are not allow to voice their opinions anymore? You are exactly the kind of korean that people don't like, thinking that their country and cultrue is the best, the most superior and invented everything that is good and when you lose something, you would rather complain and say how koreans are always the targets of injustice than try to improve yourself from the loss.

p.s. to mero: it is truly pathetic if you will have to resort to personal attacks and explore on a mistake in an argument, this means that you do not have any response to the previous statements made against you.

[mero]

US didn't even get involved until Permanent Members of UN Security COucil passed resolution on UN military intervention. That's why NK tanks and troops steamrolled SK defenses until Inchon landing.


mero.. just one question for you.. do you believe that north korea invade south on jun 25th 1950, or america first invaded north on that day?

[Wifenmummy]

Before you dismiss this paragraph as more Korean "propaganda," ask yourself this question:

What is a samurai?

The romanticized version springing from the Tokugawa Shogunate is a far cry from the bow and spear wielding horseman of the pre-bakufu days.

This is not to say that samurai originated in Korea or anything of that sort. However, if the first warrior ever to set foot in Japan was from Korea, doesn't the statement have some element of the truth? (Again, not to suggest that the first soldier in Japan was Korean... just playing out a hypothesis)

very good... btw cows arent holy! doesnt matter if they arent but i would agree definate japanese thing.. thats not to say korea didnt have any warriors and heroes

[Zaphiel]

A humble try to shed some light on Zen origins:Zen buddhism or Chan ( in mandarin ) buddhism has nothing to do with the confucian thought ,Chan buddhism originated in the shaolin temple:http://english.yinyangandtaichichuan.org/bodhidharma.html
but he is often mentioned in zen-books or work-pices of zen monks........
and they relate to konfuzius.....

[bullet08]

You have a weird masochistic perspective on Japan's atrocities against Korea, Taiwan, etc.. Kind of interesting but some very wrong facts I'd like to point out.

Chosun is a word that was used to describe Korea peninsula thousands of years before the actual kingdo existed. It was a term used by Chinese scholars before a CHinese emperor even existed. That's why its was used by the Yi dynasty to enbue itself with antiquity. It was not made up nor given to Korea by any Chinese emperor.

As for the inviting Japanese to Korea... I thought you said that Korean royalty invited the Japanese. In any case, "we" didn't invite the Japanese to Korea. At the turn of the century, Korea was a pawn caught up in tumultuous geopolitics. THere were various factions within Korea during those times: pro-Japanese, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian, anti-foreign factions, etc.. There were collaborators galore. Nonetheless "we" didn't invite the Japanese invasion. Such a statement is just insecure hyperbole and factually wrong.

As for Taiwan, well if you're korean you know how the Japanese Empire had their wonderful tendency of destroying cultures, language, religion, etc.. Not sure what your point is with this.
i was just going to go away.. but i got bored again :)

no.. i'm just have very realistic view of the things. yes, japan did aweful things during that time, bottomline is japanese did something that no one should have done. simple.

on the other hand, when someone occupies a land, and if there were people already living there, there should have been some sort of.. reaction to the action being taken place. it was all so easy for japanese to just take over korea and china. what's my point? korea and china f*cked it up. sure blame japan for all the things they did.. but what about what korea and china didn't do to prevent this from happening? sure, common people is not to blame.. they didn't know better.. what about the royal family? government? they f*cked it up big time. let see.. i'm sure someone's writing a book on how to blame this on japanese or some other folks..

yes.. let blame japanese for all their wrong doing. fine. that's just a fact. no one denies it, maybe some japanese people still do.. but there is also responsibility on part of korea and china to defend itself. it's very apparent that we didn't do a very good job of preventing them from stepping all over our motherland.

here is a question.. what was the decidng battle that japanese and korean fought before the occupation? since i believe that korean royal family actually invited them in, i don't remember any battle. or did they actually just moved their armed force in and no one even noticed it? wow..

what's my point? there really isn't any point. just feel like flaming this board.

i'm just a korean who's fed up with rest of koreans pointing finger everywhere.. never taking respsonsibility of its own action.. blame china.. blame japan.. oh.. korea is so weak.. we never done anything wrong.. why hurt us? attitude.

what really eats me alive is current korean government who can not decide which ass to kiss, and how far it needs to stick its lips into that ass. sure, i understand.. korea is weak. we need to kiss ALL the ass..

korea that i remembered from back in the 70's was something totally different. something that i was proud of.. we shot at japanese fishing boat when they violated our coast. we actively sent our agents to north korea and brought back heads.. we volunteer to send our troops (i'm sure US pushed us.. still..) to vietnam.. our ROK marine and army were feared around the freaking planet.. i want my korea back.. but i doubt that time will come any time soon..

[mero]

I totally understand where you're coming from and I agree with a lot of what you wrote. But for Chinese posters to ignorantly claim that China started Korea which is a laymen's regurgitation of the recent sinofication of Korean history should be repulsive to you and me both. All I was doing was responding to such ignorance by pointing out historical fact. I like facts.

You also have to realize that the Yi dynasty was a scholarly, agricultural society. The Korean kings were esteemed for their scholarship. All of society and social status was based on this. It was in the midst of such an environment of learning that the Korean alphabet was created in early 1400's. Such a thing was inconceivable anywhere else east or west.

However, such a closed world of Confucious heaven was poorly prepared to respond to Hideyoshi's invasion during the latter of 19th century. Yi dynasty and Korea never could recover from that and was even more poorly prepared to handle the ravages of geopolitics at the turn of the last century.

Japan had a similar period during Heain era where the royalty and aristocracy ruled and left the military to countryside warlord. Eventually the unrefined, country warlords overran things ushering in era of feudalism and beginning the development of militarism, etc..

Go get a copy of, Korea's Place in the Sun (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0393316815/qid=1098287481/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ka_1/002-0606407-2590453?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It's written by asian history professor from University of Chicago, Bruce Cummings. THe pre-1845 section of his book, first half, is absolutely illuminating. Good luck.


i was just going to go away.. but i got bored again :)

no.. i'm just have very realistic view of the things. yes, japan did aweful things during that time, bottomline is japanese did something that no one should have done. simple.

on the other hand, when someone occupies a land, and if there were people already living there, there should have been some sort of.. reaction to the action being taken place. it was all so easy for japanese to just take over korea and china. what's my point? korea and china f*cked it up. sure blame japan for all the things they did.. but what about what korea and china didn't do to prevent this from happening? sure, common people is not to blame.. they didn't know better.. what about the royal family? government? they f*cked it up big time. let see.. i'm sure someone's writing a book on how to blame this on japanese or some other folks..

yes.. let blame japanese for all their wrong doing. fine. that's just a fact. no one denies it, maybe some japanese people still do.. but there is also responsibility on part of korea and china to defend itself. it's very apparent that we didn't do a very good job of preventing them from stepping all over our motherland.

here is a question.. what was the decidng battle that japanese and korean fought before the occupation? since i believe that korean royal family actually invited them in, i don't remember any battle. or did they actually just moved their armed force in and no one even noticed it? wow..

what's my point? there really isn't any point. just feel like flaming this board.

i'm just a korean who's fed up with rest of koreans pointing finger everywhere.. never taking respsonsibility of its own action.. blame china.. blame japan.. oh.. korea is so weak.. we never done anything wrong.. why hurt us? attitude.

what really eats me alive is current korean government who can not decide which ass to kiss, and how far it needs to stick its lips into that ass. sure, i understand.. korea is weak. we need to kiss ALL the ass..

korea that i remembered from back in the 70's was something totally different. something that i was proud of.. we shot at japanese fishing boat when they violated our coast. we actively sent our agents to north korea and brought back heads.. we volunteer to send our troops (i'm sure US pushed us.. still..) to vietnam.. our ROK marine and army were feared around the freaking planet.. i want my korea back.. but i doubt that time will come any time soon..

[mero]

facts... change "latter of 19th century" to "16th century". and fyi check out Wikipedia's entry of King Sejong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong) to check out illustration of my last post.

[not-I]

Zen buddhism was not "found" (developed?) in China. Buddhism was founded in India, and the particular style known as Zen buddhism was brought into China FROM India by Bodhidharma, who was an Indian monk.

Chan buddhism originated in the shaolin temple

i meant zen has a something to do with konfuzius...who came from (south)china.....but from china...
Since i haven't posted anything in a while, and this is a semi-historical discussion, allow me to comment:

Buddhism was undoubtedly imported to China from India. However, it can safely be said that early Ch'an/Zen was first established as a formal sect in China. Early Ch'an was based on various strains of thought in Indian Mahayana Buddhism, especially on the Prajnápáramitá literature, but also on the Avatamsaka and the Lankávatára sutras. In China, this school of thought found affinities in Daosim, and early Ch'an developed as a sythesis of Daoism and Mahayana thought. Daoism was directly opposed to Confucianism, and, at least in China, Ch'an had very little to do with the latter. In Japan, Zen was sometimes brought into connection with elements of Confuciansim and Shintoism, but only peripherilly, and centuries later.

Bodhidharma is a semi-mythical figure. His historical existence is uncertain, and many of the writings attrituted to him were probably written at least 100 years after his supposed death. The idea that he settled at the Shaolin temple is also mythical, although it is true that the Shaolin are members of the Ch'an sect. But, as in the case of Jesus, we can be sure that there were figures like him active at that time. Things only start to become definitively verifiable with Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of Chinese Ch'an.

In Zen, we trace the lineage of our masters back to Buddha Shakyamuni, but hardly anyone actually takes this seriously in a historical sense. Nonetheless, many of the elements of Ch'an/Zen philosophy can be found in the teachings of the historical Buddha.

The point of these ramblings, related to the current discussion, is that a search for origins, especially early origins, will always turn into an ideological, rather than historical discussion. The history of human ideas is one of constant interaction, development, and cross-fertilzation. Cultures themselves have always grown out of various cultures. Being aware of history is important, but current teachings and practices, such as Zen or Kendo, live or die in the way we practice them here and now, regardless of where they may have "originated."

[Wifenmummy]

man buddha was lazy!

[Keith Hong]

once again, we have only ourselves, or our ancestors, to blame.
For most of Chosun's history, the Yi-dynasty-government-sanctioned mainstream take on the Korean people's origin was that a Chinese guy named Gi-ja came to Korea early on with a number of followers and civilized the natives. Hence our excellent manners and grasp of Chinese culture.
Dan-gun and Go-chosun was considered to be a flake theory by the establishment and mainstream historians.
The reason for our forefathers's claim of Chinese origin was simple enough - they wanted to be more 'Chinese' - and thus a better people. Certainly better than the barbarian Manchus and the peasant scum Japanese, or they thought.
These facts are something you used to learn in high school and college history classes before things got streamlined to accomodate 1. low scholastic aptitude of the new students(the dumbest in Korea's history - the teachers acknowledge) and 2. nationalistic revisions.

While I am proud to be Korean and have nothing but faith in our people and history, I am worried that these lapses in our history and, more importantly, the blind whitewashing of the past that's happening now will make it difficult to make calm, fact-based arguments to defend our country's past, present and future.

[Keith Hong]

The whole point of the above post is that it's difficult to blame the Chinese layman, or anyone else, for distorting and misinterpreting the history and origin of the Korean people when our Korean forefathers were the one's who started the distortion - that we started off as Chinese!

[mero]

I respect your right to an opinion and even agree with some of it but your moralist rants are really unhelpful and more importantly irrelevant to what sparked my disagreement with earlier posters in this thread. Plus, regardless of the question of relevance, such parochial emotionalism is the worse way to approach this topic.

[T.Lee]

sushi is from korea too.

[DanDan]

^ except they call it kimbap

[decembersnow6]

I respect your right to an opinion and even agree with some of it but your moralist rants are really unhelpful and more importantly irrelevant to what sparked my disagreement with earlier posters in this thread. Plus, regardless of the question of relevance, such parochial emotionalism is the worse way to approach this topic.

chill man, everyone has their way saying things :cool:

[decembersnow6]

sushi is from korea too.

how 'bout the inverse: sushi is from japan but in korea they call it kimbap?

[mero]

I thought traditional sushi was for fish only and is a way of preserving fish through fermentation and has nothing to do with the nori wrapping(only some sushi are wrapped with nori and rolled) which is the only similarity between some kinds of sushi and korean kimbab.

Kimbab is never done with raw fish and is never fermented but is just wrapping laver/nori around rice, meats, vegetables.

I think contemporary sushi rolls with nori is definitely influenced by Korean kimbab and viceversa although they taste totally differently.

[T.Lee]

yeah, but my korean history teach who moonlights as a sushi chef at a korean owned restaurant told me so!

he also told me that sake is from korea too, except koreans dont bother to filter it, we call it makoli, japanese just call it nigori sake.
thus, koreans > japanese! ha!

[misterkurukuru]

NOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

[decembersnow6]

:puzzled:
yeah, but my korean history teach who moonlights as a sushi chef at a korean owned restaurant told me so!

he also told me that sake is from korea too, except koreans dont bother to filter it, we call it makoli, japanese just call it nigori sake.
thus, koreans > japanese! ha! :puzzled: this is not cool

[mero]

:puzzled::puzzled::puzzled:


:puzzled: :puzzled: this is not cool

[decembersnow6]

?????????????????

[Nob]

are we, koreans, so ashamed of our own history that we are rewritting it to fit whatever current mood fits?

i know we have some dark moments in our history.. however, i'm damned proud of it. all these talk about kumdo being korean.. tae kwon do being korean.. samurai being korean.. it only makes us look like freaking idiots. good or bad, it's our history and we shoud cherish it.

i agree.. crazy commie bastards..
bullet!! I love you man!! Finally I met a Korean person who're just simply proud and crude. Yeah, you're right. You Korean people SHOULD be just proud of yourself for what you are, period.

[Nob]

I thought traditional sushi was for fish only and is a way of preserving fish through fermentation and has nothing to do with the nori wrapping(only some sushi are wrapped with nori and rolled) which is the only similarity between some kinds of sushi and korean kimbab.

Kimbab is never done with raw fish and is never fermented but is just wrapping laver/nori around rice, meats, vegetables.

I think contemporary sushi rolls with nori is definitely influenced by Korean kimbab and viceversa although they taste totally differently.
Sushi = Korean. Or Korean influence, thus their credit. This claim again... For what I know at least, there are numerous claims of this kind by the Koreans... Samurai, Bushido, Kendo, Origami, Taewkondo, Katana, Sumo, Ninja, Sushi, Nara(the place), Tamagochi(a game), Karaoke, Bonsai, Sensu, Manga, Enka, Kadou, Sake, even some Celebrities in Japan... They are ALL from Korea according to them. There're not much left for the Japanese, are there?

As for Sushi... I'm sorry, but I've never heard that Sushi was had a Korean influence, I believe those are just Japanese. But I dont know actually. I did no research... But when and where did that influence take place?

PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.

[mero]

WHo claimed that sushi=korean??? That's your insecurities talking. I was pointing out the differences between sushi and korean kimbab which are vastly different things although they've definitely influenced each other.

As for your generally prejudiced rants regarding Koreans claiming Japanese things as being originally Korean, the fact of the matter is that many "Japanese" things have been affected and have their origin from Chinese and KOrea culture. That's just a fact. It's certainly taken overboard from the Korean side but given contemporary raving idiots like Ishihara and politicians including Japanese PM worshipping class A war criminals at religious shrines, etc., as well as WWII atrocities, the overboard Korean claims are reflexive and absolutely innocuous in comparison to their Japanes couterpart.

In any case, I have problems with labeling things as "korean" or "japanese", since such nationalistic notions are modern creations.

As with sushi, I've heard Japanese claim it was a technique of fermenting fish with vinegared rice that was learned from South East China. I just made an observation on this thread that contemporary sushi eaten at restauraunts aren't fermented for longkeeping at all but are eaten relatively fresh.


Sushi = Korean. Or Korean influence, thus their credit. This claim again... For what I know at least, there are numerous claims of this kind by the Koreans... Samurai, Bushido, Kendo, Origami, Taewkondo, Katana, Sumo, Ninja, Sushi, Nara(the place), Tamagochi(a game), Karaoke, Bonsai, Sensu, Manga, Enka, Kadou, Sake, even some Celebrities in Japan... They are ALL from Korea according to them. There're not much left for the Japanese, are there?

As for Sushi... I'm sorry, but I've never heard that Sushi was had a Korean influence, I believe those are just Japanese. But I dont know actually. I did no research... But when and where did that influence take place?

PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.

[T.Lee]

chopsticks are from korea too.

[rainmaker]

I am Korean but I have never heard Samurai is from Korea, Sushi is from Korea, or hell I don't even think Kendo is from Korea.. Most of Korean people I know that these are are all from Japan or at least give you a credit for developing this as Japanese thing !! Don't bother too much because of one personal opinion, there are always extrmist everywhere. I guess you still have not met our Greek friend yet, who believe everything in the whole world are originated from Greece....




Sushi = Korean. Or Korean influence, thus their credit. This claim again... For what I know at least, there are numerous claims of this kind by the Koreans... Samurai, Bushido, Kendo, Origami, Taewkondo, Katana, Sumo, Ninja, Sushi, Nara(the place), Tamagochi(a game), Karaoke, Bonsai, Sensu, Manga, Enka, Kadou, Sake, even some Celebrities in Japan... They are ALL from Korea according to them. There're not much left for the Japanese, are there?

As for Sushi... I'm sorry, but I've never heard that Sushi was had a Korean influence, I believe those are just Japanese. But I dont know actually. I did no research... But when and where did that influence take place?

PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.

[rainmaker]

I am Korean but I have never heard Samurai is from Korea, Sushi is from Korea, or hell I don't even think Kendo is from Korea.. Most of Korean people I know that these are are all from Japan or at least give you a credit for developing this as Japanese thing !! Don't bother too much because of one personal opinion, there are always extrmist everywhere. I guess you still have not met our Greek friend yet, who believe everything in the whole world are originated from Greece....
But I still believe all hot chics are from Korea, hah~~~

[DanDan]

sushi isn't korean. modern kumdo isn't korean. haedong kumdo is however. samurai...i've never heard anyone say that they are actually korean. udon isn't korean. tonkatsu isn't korean (every1 knows that and it's really popular in korea. i had it like everyday hehehe). katana, i believe isn't korean but was influenced by korean steel. and yea...some celebrities in japan are korean (BoA, SES, Sugar, etc). Some manga/anime these days are actually drawn in korea. Japanese hire Koreans to draw for them. and by nara...do you mean korea itself? cuz korea is korean (including Dokdo! japan claims dokdo is part of japan..in case you didn't know that).

[Masahiro]

how 'bout the inverse: sushi is from japan but in korea they call it kimbap? shushi and kim bap are two different things. If i am in the mood for sushi, i wouldn't settle for kim bap. And vice versa! Thus, the logic is if one can not substitute the other, then they are not of equal. One more thing, I don't care much about what nationality the kendoist I come to know and compete with,whether they are koreans, japanese, african american, european, "cocky-asians" or whatever race they are. I am only fearful and careful of one type of person. .. ...those who do not have a good heart! I let those who are interested in politics deal with all that "wow, now they are saying samurais are from korea" or "are kumdo and kendo different, if so how do they contrast?" I try only to pay attention to do good kendo. And I enjoy kendo so much and continue to is due partly because I am comforted by the thought that they are many other just like me who do not judge the fruit until I see what's inside of it.

p.s. yes there are a lot of hot chicks from Korea! >__ <

[bullet08]

In any case, I have problems with labeling things as "korean" or "japanese", since such nationalistic notions are modern creations.
i can't believe it's not butter.. i mean.. can't believe this thread is still going.. i also have problem with labeling things.


p.s. yes there are a lot of hot chicks from Korea! >__ <
i don't know.. i've seen some hot japanese chicks.. but, i do have to say on avg, there are more good looking korean chicks than japanese chicks.. but i'm not looking since i'm married to hot korean lady.. hmm.. LOL

[bullet08]

PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.
if you are willing to talk about rape of nanking.. pearl harbor.. burma death march.. sunday brunch.. i'm willing to talk about above minor subjects.

[Nob]

sushi isn't korean. modern kumdo isn't korean. haedong kumdo is however. samurai...i've never heard anyone say that they are actually korean. udon isn't korean. tonkatsu isn't korean (every1 knows that and it's really popular in korea. i had it like everyday hehehe). katana, i believe isn't korean but was influenced by korean steel. and yea...some celebrities in japan are korean (BoA, SES, Sugar, etc). Some manga/anime these days are actually drawn in korea. Japanese hire Koreans to draw for them. and by nara...do you mean korea itself? cuz korea is korean (including Dokdo! japan claims dokdo is part of japan..in case you didn't know that).
I'm not sure about Dokdo (that's the island, right?). Yeah, I just listed up things that i know at least someone claimed to be of korean origins. And samurai.. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. Don't you know the Korean movie called Saulabi, or whatever? I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about. Ah, about that haedong kumdo, that's a made up...

http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/koreawatcher/docs/haedong-ko.htm

BoA's cute. About Nara.. There's a place called Nara in Japan and some Korean said it was named by the Koreans in ancient time. That's why it's called Nara according to this guy. (Does Nara mean Korea?)

Mero, as for your claim regarding my prejudice, I only stated what I heard and asked simple questions. I also have problems lebelling stuff... BUT that's exatctly how "these" (I'm not saying all Koreans, not people here at least) nationalists establish their arguments, many "Japanese" things were influenced by the Korean, therefore "all" the stuff Japanese are actually Korean... and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.

[DanDan]

I'm not sure about Dokdo (that's the island, right?). Yeah, I just listed up things that i know at least someone claimed to be of korean origins. And samurai.. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. Don't you know the Korean movie called Saulabi, or whatever? I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about. Ah, about that haedong kumdo, that's a made up...

http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/koreawatcher/docs/haedong-ko.htm

BoA's cute. About Nara.. There's a place called Nara in Japan and some Korean said it was named by the Koreans in ancient time. That's why it's called Nara according to this guy. (Does Nara mean Korea?)

Mero, as for your claim regarding my prejudice, I only stated what I heard and asked simple questions. I also have problems lebelling stuff... BUT that's exatctly how "these" (I'm not saying all Koreans, not people here at least) nationalists establish their arguments, many "Japanese" things were influenced by the Korean, therefore "all" the stuff Japanese are actually Korean... and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.
yea..dokdo is the island

Nara means nation

u can read korean? that site is in korean...그것을어덯게믿니?

i live in the US so i'm not really "in touch" w/ korean entertainment other than music and some dramas. i kno that now a days, there are a lot of korean dramas about haedong kumdo and they are based on true stories like Jang Gilsan and my KENDO (not kumdo) teacher watches it so i don't think haedong kumdo is fake.

[mero]

Whatever you supposedly heard you didn't hear it in this thread or even on this site. How the hell do you go from sushi to friggin Dokdo? Has anyone in this board claimed anything about Dokdo???

In fact, tell us please, when did anyone claim: "all the stuff Japanese are actually Korean" as you foolishly stated in your post?

btw. I pointed out your insecurities not your prejudices cause you're showcasing it by defensively blabbing on about claims no one has made in this thread.

If you have questions then just be nice about it and ask. People will answer. Just chill with hotheaded hostilities and check your personal baggage at the door and don't drag it into this thread.


I'm not sure about Dokdo (that's the island, right?). Yeah, I just listed up things that i know at least someone claimed to be of korean origins. And samurai.. I'm surprised you haven't heard of this. Don't you know the Korean movie called Saulabi, or whatever? I've never seen it, but I've heard what it's about. Ah, about that haedong kumdo, that's a made up...

http://members.at.infoseek.co.jp/koreawatcher/docs/haedong-ko.htm

BoA's cute. About Nara.. There's a place called Nara in Japan and some Korean said it was named by the Koreans in ancient time. That's why it's called Nara according to this guy. (Does Nara mean Korea?)

Mero, as for your claim regarding my prejudice, I only stated what I heard and asked simple questions. I also have problems lebelling stuff... BUT that's exatctly how "these" (I'm not saying all Koreans, not people here at least) nationalists establish their arguments, many "Japanese" things were influenced by the Korean, therefore "all" the stuff Japanese are actually Korean... and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.

[Nob]

Whatever you supposedly heard you didn't hear it in this thread or even on this site. How the hell do you go from sushi to friggin Dokdo? Has anyone in this board claimed anything about Dokdo???

In fact, tell us please, when did anyone claim: "all the stuff Japanese are actually Korean" as you foolishly stated in your post?

btw. I pointed out your insecurities not your prejudices cause you're showcasing it by defensively blabbing on about claims no one has made in this thread.

If you have questions then just be nice about it and ask. People will answer. Just chill with hotheaded hostilities and check your personal baggage at the door and don't drag it into this thread.
Uh.. That's a strong one you got there. I didnt mention Dokdo(check my post), I think that's a purely political matter, which I detest. About that statement, I've read some articles in Korean which stated that exactly.

..did i come as rude? Maybe I did.. didnt introduce myself or anything. Sorry for that. And hostilities, you call that.. Yeah, I won't deny it, but your wrong... I'm chill. I'm chill like a wine man... Come on, I won't claim this out of nothing. You can search Google and find thousands of articles and websites and those "history of Kumdo" madeups, in case you didn't notice that. Isn't it kinda natural these make me feel somewhat insecure? These guys are bringin politics to a sport man. Or is it just that politicians suddenly started to practice Kendo. Um.. That'd make sense.

DanDan, no unfortunately i cannot read Korean. I have a translater that works for Korean(and English and Spanish too). About haedong, i actually don't know cuz that's the only source I read... Maybe you can research on it when you go back to your Nara. :smiley: Aha..

[Nob]

Btw, yeah, you're right mero. I shouldn't have brought those issues other than Kendo(and Sushi..) in this thread. Forget those please.

[Nanbanjin]

I'm chill. I'm chill like a wine man...

I resent your insistance that wine is chill. I have it on very good advice that red wine is best served at room temperature, so get your facts straight before you go posting your right-winged nationalistic views on wine all over the place!

Oh, and for your information Kendo originated in Australia. As did Geisha. And Mt. Fuji.

[bullet08]

and bullet, you just posted some total nonsense. You probably thought I was accusing the Koreans for these Samurai=Korean theory. We're obviously not talking about anything you said.
i'm sorry.. i guess my english isn't so good..


PS. Am I the only Japanese here? And I want to ask some Korean people... Do you really claim all these are from Korea in your country? I hardly believed it when I heard the rumor that the Koreans are saying all these are from there. Is it true? No wait, I know it's true. Do you believe it? Or do you try to prove it? If you do (or if you don't), can you tell me what you think about these stuff.

did you or did you not ask some koreans to tell you about things such as you have posted?

my reply to that was if you are willing to talk about what japanese folks did back when.. i'm willing to talk about what and why koreans are saying everything came from korea.. hmm.. let me know if i mis-understood you. seems like plain english to me. maybe you didn't mean to type those things?

[DanDan]

u kno in the book 1421 by Gavin Menzies, he claims that America was first discovered by the Chinese and the Koreans drew the 1st world map (Kangnido). it also says that Norwegian fisherman were found to have some Korean DNA and Native Americans were found to have Chinese DNA. Interesting isn't it? yea...i didn't exactly read this on my own free will...it was for school...but it's a New York Times bestseller. it's like 500 pages long and I kinda procrastinated so i had to read it in 3 days. hehehe ^^;

yea...that was kinda random...but i thought it was slightly relevant to the topic...

[dorkusxmaximus]

would that explain why norwegians are so good-looking? :cool:

[Nob]

i'm sorry.. i guess my english isn't so good..



did you or did you not ask some koreans to tell you about things such as you have posted?

my reply to that was if you are willing to talk about what japanese folks did back when.. i'm willing to talk about what and why koreans are saying everything came from korea.. hmm.. let me know if i mis-understood you. seems like plain english to me. maybe you didn't mean to type those things?


Dude... To be honest, no, I can't understand what you're writing. But I can guess what you meant, and I can imagine your thought process. Seems like you have a seriously distorted image of the Japanese in general...(but that's also my stereotype of Koreans..) This is only my imagination: you saw a Japanese guy seemingly accusing the Koreans for this Kumdo issue and you automatically assumed he's putting aside the past issues and trying to cover up those while ranting about small issues like kendo/kumdo... Is my understanding correct? I still don't get it though. Why did you bring those up? There's no connection between them. What's the logic behind it?

[Nob]

http://www.kumdo.com/ushwarangkwan/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Jesus Christ man... Check this out. I'm sick of this...

[Nanbanjin]

http://www.kumdo.com/ushwarangkwan/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=21&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Jesus Christ man... Check this out. I'm sick of this...

Yes, we're all sick of the kendo vs. kumdo discussion so why keep scratching at this unhealed wound?

The znkr stance on the issue has been until recently to make no comment. You can find their current official statement on the origins of kendo here (http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/AJKF-Perspective-of-Kendo.htm) and here (Japanese) (http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/w-kendo/index.html)

[mero]

Yes, we're all sick of the kendo vs. kumdo discussion so why keep scratching at this unhealed wound?

Cause he's a damn troll.

[Nob]

Yes, we're all sick of the kendo vs. kumdo discussion so why keep scratching at this unhealed wound?
Cuz there are just too many Koreans claiming nonsense.

[mero]

A lot of Japanese claim nonsense and so do Americans as does every nationality in the world. But you don't see me trolling and flaming Japanese, Americans in threads like an a$$. Your categorical perception of what Koreans claim is a figment of your insecurities.


Cuz there are just too many Koreans claiming nonsense.

[shotoblogger]

As for your generally prejudiced rants regarding Koreans claiming Japanese things as being originally Korean, the fact of the matter is that many "Japanese" things have been affected and have their origin from Chinese and KOrea culture. That's just a fact.I'd be interested to find out what things in Japanese culture were influenced by Korean culture that wasn't actually "China via Korea." So far, most of the things you have suggested Mero, such as the Korean origin of taekwondo, are inaccurate.

You should read Alex Kerr's "Lost Japan." He makes a convincing case that aspects of Japanese culture are influenced by South Pacific islanders and their native landscape and not China or Korea.



It's certainly taken overboard from the Korean side but given contemporary raving idiots like Ishihara and politicians including Japanese PM worshipping class A war criminals at religious shrines, etc., as well as WWII atrocities, the overboard Korean claims are reflexive and absolutely innocuous in comparison to their Japanes couterpart.This is a failure in logic. The Japanese embrace of WWII offences is reprehensible, but responding by claiming that aspects of Japanese culture have Korean origins when they don't is completely non-sensical.


In any case, I have problems with labeling things as "korean" or "japanese", since such nationalistic notions are modern creations.That's a bunch of BS. If by "modern" you mean a period from the mid-1800s on, that's just completely ridiculous. Even if you mean a period from the 1500s on. Japan is an island, for crying out loud, and wasn't a collection of small competing kingdoms since a very long time ago, if you could say it ever was.

[decembersnow6]

here, i will solve this hostility once and for all by singing a song...

*sings*--what the world needs now, it's love, sweet love
it's the only thing that the world, has too little of...

[decembersnow6]

does that help??

[mero]

I'll tell you what. You come up with your own propositions contextualized to topic of this thread supported with evidence and reason and I'll give you my take on it.

Breaking up posts and brainlessly arguing against strawman positions with juvenile red herring, false dichotomy arguments isn't something that I stopped doing since I wrote a 2 page paper in junior high school. Good grief.


I'd be interested to find out what things in Japanese culture were influenced by Korean culture that wasn't actually "China via Korea." So far, most of the things you have suggested Mero, such as the Korean origin of taekwondo, are inaccurate.

You should read Alex Kerr's "Lost Japan." He makes a convincing case that aspects of Japanese culture are influenced by South Pacific islanders and their native landscape and not China or Korea.

This is a failure in logic. The Japanese embrace of WWII offences is reprehensible, but responding by claiming that aspects of Japanese culture have Korean origins when they don't is completely non-sensical.

That's a bunch of BS. If by "modern" you mean a period from the mid-1800s on, that's just completely ridiculous. Even if you mean a period from the 1500s on. Japan is an island, for crying out loud, and wasn't a collection of small competing kingdoms since a very long time ago, if you could say it ever was.

[DanDan]

-kimchi (kimuchi)
-steel
-Buddhism
they all came from korea to japan.

and how do u kno Japanese things weren't influenced by other countries? just as any other country in the world, i'm sure Japan was in some way influenced by other countries.

[Nob]

does that help??
What song is that?

[Nob]

A lot of Japanese claim nonsense and so do Americans as does every nationality in the world. But you don't see me trolling and flaming Japanese, Americans in threads like an a$$. Your categorical perception of what Koreans claim is a figment of your insecurities.
You're quite a psychologist mero. A figment of my insecurities. Haha. Just type in "Kumdo" or "Haedong Kumdo" in google.

[rainmaker]

Let's stop this nonsense.. I don't care if you are Korean or Japanese. But arguing this in public and humiliating each others do not sounds like real Kendoka. I am sure Nob and Mero you are both nice person when you talk each others. Please try to understand each others and be patient when you chat on website. You are not trying to solve problem or address issue here but end up with humiliating your own character and your own country. Even though I am Korean, I am so fond of many Japanese people and their culture. I am sure others will feel same if they understand our culture & history better.

[kenshi_kr]

Alot of you have nihon-fever and cant exactly say you're unbiased in your opinions. I dont mind that but i'd just like to say that although i understand your love for japan, their culture isnt exactly superior in any way or form that suggests they could not have been influenced by other cultures (yes even from korea). Why do alot of you get so worked up about say, something like 'samurai is korean'. If you are japanese, fine say what you want but if you are american, english or any other why do you care what korea says. I wouldnt care if someone told me Americans claim benz is really theirs or japan says they invented baseball. Of course its obscene and so far from the truth but why would i care. What i care is who says what about korea. So WHY? do all of you gaijins care what korea says about japan. You do realise most of their seemingly outrageous comments are directed at japan? And of course many know the reasons behind them. Its just i find it quite amusing when say.. an american starts slandering korea because korea claims kendo is theirs and whatnot. I think japan is a cool country coz c'mon.. it represents asia in its entirety. No other asian nation comes close to its economic and cultural power. (Perhaps other than china but i think they're alot poorer than the japs.. although they're about to experience a massive boom.. neway) None of you can experience the resentment towards the japs from reading about what the japs did to korea because you are not korean. They came in and tried to eradicate the korean nation. They burnt our history. They gave us jap names and made us speak japanese. They raped our women, as young as 12 and made them into sex slaves for the damn jap army. They tortured our men/women just to see how much pain a person could withstand and drove huge iron stakes into the middle of our roads to cut off our 'ki' which the japanese believed we had alot of. None of you can understand the bitterness and resentment bcoz it wasnt your country. They tried to rid us of our identity and if you are any patriot you should be able to understand our emotions. I wasnt even there but hearing about what the japs did makes me wanna kick every damn jap in the ass. BUT i dont hate them. Just hate what they did. No doubt this is no reason for koreans to spread outrageous propaganda regarding our history and try to take what is some other nations as ours. I mean they do make damn good cars and of course did give us kendo. But this illusion japan is a superior cultural identity by some people is obscure to me. Every country had warriors. Why is the samurai so special? Coz they committed suicide after defeat? Bcoz of honor? Hey european knights had honour, they had a code of conduct. They played with swords. but howcome noone mentions them. Perhaps an example of the power of japan's modern culture.

[DanDan]

seriously...Koreans these days like Japan and Japanese these days like Korea. At least the younger generations.

[Hisham]

Hey european knights had honour, they had a code of conduct. They played with swords. but howcome noone mentions them.
From who did the europeans get chivalery and many other usefull things for that matter?the people that did are even more marginalized and forgoten when it comes to history,there due credit erased.European knights are found in fiction and non-fiction books ,movies games ....etc
Anyway this would be the subject of another thread in a different forum.

[Reikon]

Kendo comes from Kenjutsu. Which is Japanese. While sword fighting in it's self probably didn't come from Japan, the style of sword fighting (movement, etc.) that is practiced in Kendo/Kumdo comes from Japan.

I got a few things that I wanted to reply to (mixed quotes)


....were the ones practacing kendo(or kenjutsu in that time)..
Kenjutsu and Kendo are very different in a sense. Especially with the cutting aspect of Kenjutsu.


...sword techniques and philosophy originated in china...
While probably not being the first curved blade, the nihon daito is almost unique in it's idea of draw and cut in one movement.


...Karate originated in Japan and Taekwondo is a copy..
Te came from China to Okinawa, was modified and called Karate, and then went from Okinawa to Japan and then to Korea. (basically. I'm pretty sure it was a little more mixed up, but that is supposidly the 'official' line)

Now, 7/9 men who formed TKD were high ranking students in Shotokan Karate, hence why a crapload of the Katas and movement is the same. the other 2 were supposed to have been masters of Tae Kyon (Tae Kwon).


...chopsticks are from korea too....
I don't know if you're joking or not, but Chop Sticks came from chine as part of a confucian ideal that knives were objects of aggression and were not suited for eating.


I wish to hear nothing of my insecurities.

[Wout]

Alot of you have nihon-fever and cant exactly say you're unbiased in your opinions. I dont mind that but i'd just like to say that although i understand your love for japan, their culture isnt exactly superior in any way or form that suggests they could not have been influenced by other cultures (yes even from korea). Why do alot of you get so worked up about say, something like 'samurai is korean'. If you are japanese, fine say what you want but if you are american, english or any other why do you care what korea says. I wouldnt care if someone told me Americans claim benz is really theirs or japan says they invented baseball. Of course its obscene and so far from the truth but why would i care. What i care is who says what about korea. So WHY? do all of you gaijins care what korea says about japan. You do realise most of their seemingly outrageous comments are directed at japan? And of course many know the reasons behind them. Its just i find it quite amusing when say.. an american starts slandering korea because korea claims kendo is theirs and whatnot. I think japan is a cool country coz c'mon.. it represents asia in its entirety. No other asian nation comes close to its economic and cultural power. (Perhaps other than china but i think they're alot poorer than the japs.. although they're about to experience a massive boom.. neway) None of you can experience the resentment towards the japs from reading about what the japs did to korea because you are not korean. They came in and tried to eradicate the korean nation. They burnt our history. They gave us jap names and made us speak japanese. They raped our women, as young as 12 and made them into sex slaves for the damn jap army. They tortured our men/women just to see how much pain a person could withstand and drove huge iron stakes into the middle of our roads to cut off our 'ki' which the japanese believed we had alot of. None of you can understand the bitterness and resentment bcoz it wasnt your country. They tried to rid us of our identity and if you are any patriot you should be able to understand our emotions. I wasnt even there but hearing about what the japs did makes me wanna kick every damn jap in the ass. BUT i dont hate them. Just hate what they did. No doubt this is no reason for koreans to spread outrageous propaganda regarding our history and try to take what is some other nations as ours. I mean they do make damn good cars and of course did give us kendo. But this illusion japan is a superior cultural identity by some people is obscure to me. Every country had warriors. Why is the samurai so special? Coz they committed suicide after defeat? Bcoz of honor? Hey european knights had honour, they had a code of conduct. They played with swords. but howcome noone mentions them. Perhaps an example of the power of japan's modern culture.

first Japan does not even closely represent Asia, It might be the second or third most powerfull country on that continent and It is the second largest economie but it's the equivalent of saying the UK represents Europe in it's entirety. Not only are you forgetting about China but Also India ('the largest democracy in the world') , the Middle east (alhtough a bunch of not so powerfull states, they are the most important states in the world + entierly different culture) and lastly Russia an enormous country which is focused upon Europe even if the largest part lies in Asia.

My second comment is about the war crimes: "War is an odd thing, it is atrocious and horrible, but when we hear about these things we are all ready to start a new one." (the things you describe happen in every war, except for the searching for ki)
About war crimes 60 years ago I think 'well it happened, see that it doesn't happen again, don't try to blaim this or that group of ppl of which most weren't even born when the events took place' (it would like if I would hate all germans now, kinda pointless isn't it)

[bullet08]

don't try to blaim this or that group of ppl of which most weren't even born when the events took place' (it would like if I would hate all germans now, kinda pointless isn't it)
it is rather pointless, but it's still very interesting to talk about. otherwise, people will forget.. and things will happen again.

blaming others for what happened 60 yrs ago is pointless, however, talking about it and learning from it is important. how long did it take for UN to response to saddam back in 1990? how many people died for it? remember poland? how many jews died from that one? saddam is gone now, but how many more will have to die for iraq to return to peace? we still haven't learned from the past.. more will die because actions are not taken.. due to people who will ignore the past thinking things will be different. fat chance.

[mero]

What the hell happened here?

I remember the thread was dying to a benign discussion about sushi and when some damn hotheaded Japanese troll came in and dumped his personal issues on this thread.

Check the earlier posts.

The trolling and flaming came from the nob and others like him.

Even the beginning of this thread was an attempt to flame with racist and inflammatory claims against a streotype of Korea. It's sad to see such traditional Japanese racism and prejudice being carried on like this. It's really sad.

Regarding history, if you're too historical ignorant or analytically challenged to properly distinguish Germany and Japan and their perspective roles in WWII and how they deal with their past in modern times, I pity you.

[Wout]

to mero: I study political sciences, I have studied the international relationschips between countries during the century in detail (because they make me), don't just assume I'm historically ignorant, I just made the comparison because it were two countries that attacked another country in WW2.
to bullet 08: I agree we should learn from history and the thing I've learned is that people in most cases don't learn anything from history except for one thing: to hate the 'group' of people that attacked us in the past.


BTW I do know how the difference in how they handle their recent history. I could give numerous examples of when nations hate other natioins for things in the past, but a situation where nations 'kiss and make up' is just very hard to find so I used one everyone knows.

[shinjinho]

maybe that whole site is bs and no one in there knows what theyre talking about. (it does say thats its European)..................... just my 2 and a half point 4643438343 cents.

[litige]

-kimchi (kimuchi)
-steel
-Buddhism
they all came from korea to japan.

and how do u kno Japanese things weren't influenced by other countries? just as any other country in the world, i'm sure Japan was in some way influenced by other countries.

No way??? I thought that since Japan is an island, all appeared by magic on this land. But then i thought again : "shit, Japanese is an Asian culture, where does it come from? (surely not form Russia!!) oh!...then it must be from Korea...OR...The Dinosaurs from the old that where stuck on this piece of land when it left have elvolved to what we know today as Japanese.

[DanDan]

^wtf? i think that's a lil too much sarcasm for me to handle....i really hav no idea what that means...

[mero]

Wow, since you seem to be so against looking at the past and since you're so indifferent to "learning from history" maybe someone should invade your country, rape your mothers, sisters, behead your grandfather, outlaw your language, culture, religion, enslave and deport laborers and kill them, pillage cultural treasures, burn cities, commit other such atrocities all based on an ethnocentric, racist, religious ideology(alive and well in Japan these days btw).

And then when you're old and dying I'm sure that you're grandchildren will be fine being told that since it didn't happen to them they aren't entitled to moral, emotional, philosophical, idealogical indignation. (apply oozing sarcasm here)


to mero: I study political sciences, I have studied the international relationschips between countries during the century in detail (because they make me), don't just assume I'm historically ignorant, I just made the comparison because it were two countries that attacked another country in WW2.
to bullet 08: I agree we should learn from history and the thing I've learned is that people in most cases don't learn anything from history except for one thing: to hate the 'group' of people that attacked us in the past.


BTW I do know how the difference in how they handle their recent history. I could give numerous examples of when nations hate other natioins for things in the past, but a situation where nations 'kiss and make up' is just very hard to find so I used one everyone knows.

[mero]

Yet a another great example of a purely inflammatory, troll of a post. yawn~.


No way??? I thought that since Japan is an island, all appeared by magic on this land. But then i thought again : "shit, Japanese is an Asian culture, where does it come from? (surely not form Russia!!) oh!...then it must be from Korea...OR...The Dinosaurs from the old that where stuck on this piece of land when it left have elvolved to what we know today as Japanese.

[Wout]

Wow, since you seem to be so against looking at the past and since you're so indifferent to "learning from history" maybe someone should invade your country, rape your mothers, sisters, behead your grandfather, outlaw your language, culture, religion, enslave and deport laborers and kill them, pillage cultural treasures, burn cities, commit other such atrocities all based on an ethnocentric, racist, religious ideology(alive and well in Japan these days btw).

And then when you're old and dying I'm sure that you're grandchildren will be fine being told that since it didn't happen to them they aren't entitled to moral, emotional, philosophical, idealogical indignation. (apply oozing sarcasm here)

Well see now that's what I'm getting at most people just look at the past and say, that group of people we must hate because they hated us. If people should learn anything that is that racist, etnocentric ideology causes trouble it isn't in anyway a solution to a better world (btw it is alive and well in Belgium too as much as it pains me to admit that). BTW what do you mean by that last sentence, you just mean hate the others because thay are the others.

[litige]

Yet a another great example of a purely inflammatory, troll of a post. yawn~.

I'm just helping introspection here. Since you can see the unecessary bable in my post, then you can see unecessary bable in all the post in this threads.

Hey guys, dirt is from earth.

[Reikon]

bable=babble*

i think

[litige]

bable=babble*

i think

Exactly! hehe, thanks.

[Reikon]

no problem :)

[T.Lee]

DIE!!! DIE!!!!! Death to you!!!! DIEEE!!!!!!!!

[gsx1100s]

I would like to shed some light on this subject .

If we all indeed do come from Africa , then we should take the evolutionary process back to its very beginning. Before man there was apes before that other creatures that crawled out of the primordial swamp. Before that we have carbon based life forms stemming from comets from Mars. So we can safely stop here and say Kendo is from Mars ! :wink: :) Glad to help clear up the argument


cheers Michael

(p.s. yes I am joking:rolleyes: )

[Kendoka]

I would like to shed some light on this subject .

If we all indeed do come from Africa , then we should take the evolutionary process back to its very beginning. Before man there was apes before that other creatures that crawled out of the primordial swamp. Before that we have carbon based life forms stemming from comets from Mars. So we can safely stop here and say Kendo is from Mars ! :wink: :) Glad to help clear up the argument


cheers Michael

(p.s. yes I am joking:rolleyes: )

Does this mean that WE are related?

[rainmaker]

Read the Bible... Yes, you and I, we are all came from same origin... Remember "Let there be light ?"




Does this mean that WE are related?

[Reikon]

Read the Bible... Yes, you and I, we are all came from same origin... Remember "Let there be light ?"
Actually i think you meant "And God created man."

[rainmaker]

Damn, you guys are so demanding... I didn't read that far...




Actually i think you meant "And God created man."

[gsx1100s]

Does this mean that WE are related?
lol , looking at your high level of skill/knowledge and mine , I'd say definately not! :) I'd like to say yes , but that would be a bald faced lie !


P.S. Looking foward to the Christmas breakfast!

[gsx1100s]

Damn, you guys are so demanding... I didn't read that far...
I know what you mean , the books a bit long has a plot line that jumps around a bit and the charactars don't seem to fill out much ,sorta sketchy:wink: .

cheers michael

[rainmaker]

All it matter is "we are all brothers and sisters, can we all get along ???"




I know what you mean , the books a bit long has a plot line that jumps around a bit and the charactars don't seem to fill out much ,sorta sketchy:wink: .

cheers michael

[Reikon]

All it matter is "we are all brothers and sisters, can we all get along ???"
Dude...you have a girlfriend...do you really want her to be your sister?

Let's just say "can't we all just get along?"

[rainmaker]

Yo' ass be at da damn denyin' stage but yo' ass got'ta accept da damn troof. We
be all came from same gene, one root.. We be relashuns.. Dat be y I love yo'
ass likes mah bro... Lemme in da house yo' ass say "Amen !!"




Dude...you have a girlfriend...do you really want her to be your sister?

Let's just say "can't we all just get along?"

[Reikon]

Yo' ass be at da damn denyin' stage but yo' ass got'ta accept da damn troof. We
be all came from same gene, one root.. We be relashuns.. Dat be y I love yo'
ass likes mah bro... Lemme in da house yo' ass say "Amen !!"
We're all russians?

[rainmaker]

Haha.. Nothing personal, just for fun..

Check it out this link, I tried jive server....

http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~eclectic/toys/jive.html


We're all russians?

[Reikon]

Haha.. Nothing personal, just for fun..

Check it out this link, I tried jive server....

http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~eclectic/toys/jive.html (http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/%7Eeclectic/toys/jive.html)
I'm coming to tampa and am goign to spack you with potted meat. :x

[rainmaker]

hey hey, I don't want to see another 15 years old Peterson here in Florida...




I'm coming to tampa and am goign to spack you with potted meat. :x

[Reikon]

hey hey, I don't want to see another 15 years old Peterson here in Florida...
...*sigh*

*directs you to the food aisle, and shows you potted meat, which is basically ground balonga in cans*

You're only like an hour away...or two..mwuahaha...mwuahahahahahaha...mwuahahahahahah ahahaha!!!

[rainmaker]

you at Miami ?? I heard you have awesome school...


...*sigh*

*directs you to the food aisle, and shows you potted meat, which is basically ground balonga in cans*

You're only like an hour away...or two..mwuahaha...mwuahahahahahaha...mwuahahahahahah ahahaha!!!

[Reikon]

you at Miami ?? I heard you have awesome school... No...I'm in Cocoa/Melbourne

Miami is like 3 hours away

And I dont' take kendo

[rainmaker]

what do you take ???? Young apprentice...



No...I'm in Cocoa/Melbourne

Miami is like 3 hours away

And I dont' take kendo

[Reikon]

what do you take ???? Young apprentice...
I take Filipino Martial Arts, my child.

[rainmaker]

There is no such things called Filipino martial arts. It is also from Korea... Let me tell you one more truth.. I am your daddy....




I take Filipino Martial Arts, my child.

[Reikon]

There is no such things called Filipino martial arts. It is also from Korea... Let me tell you one more truth.. I am your daddy.... Lies...all lies.

You're definately not my daddy rainman...d-d-d-d-def-definately n-not my daddy.

[Akira Kurosawa]

There is no such things called Filipino martial arts. It is also from Korea... Let me tell you one more truth.. I am your daddy....Yes there is, waht are you talking about. Of course theyre not called, "filipino martial arts" but there is martial arts that originated in the Philipines.

[Reikon]

Yes there is, waht are you talking about. Of course theyre not called, "filipino martial arts" but there is martial arts that originated in the Philipines.
Sayoc.com is the knife fighting i take

we also do japanese sword, unarmed, and much more.

[Fonsz]

Hello,
I noticed that this thread is going a bit haywire,so I would like to thank the person who recommended the book "Korea's place under the sun". I read it and I finally have bit of understanding about the iffy relation between Japan and Korea. I also understand completely that Korean people in my opinion can say what they want about any subject they like. Even though it may upset Japanese people. It would be a shame though if Kendo as it is would be torn apart because of this. But I still think that the Korean folk have a point when they say the things that they state because of their past experiences.
I was wondering what the point of view is in this matter from the Korean Forumites.
Regards,
Alphons

[Hisham]

IMHO all arguments about martial arts and there origins are a waste of time and energy when they're looked at as exclusive properties and when they're tied to nationalistic crap no offence ,this is how IMO the basic message of a martial art gets disrespected ,like it or not martial arts are a human legacy, everybody influences everybody back and forth and that goes for civilizations two, nothing on this earth is pure at least as far as human beings are concerned :glasses:.

[StealthPredator]

Hey i wanted to know whats the relations between the Japanes,Korean and Chinese people/countries today?does this country hold a grudge to this and that country and so so.I am Chinese who has no grudges to any of those countries since i like em.So my main question is does for E.g China hate Japan.Japan hate Korea and such and such from a political view and also form a normal persons view.
I do Kumdo and usually im the only chinese around so I get bad feelings sumtimes....because im chinese and everyone else is korean.
it would be good if koreans and japnese people can give some insight

[litige]

Hey i wanted to know whats the relations between the Japanes,Korean and Chinese people/countries today?does this country hold a grudge to this and that country and so so.I am Chinese who has no grudges to any of those countries since i like em.So my main question is does for E.g China hate Japan.Japan hate Korea and such and such from a political view and also form a normal persons view.
I do Kumdo and usually im the only chinese around so I get bad feelings sumtimes....because im chinese and everyone else is korean.
it would be good if koreans and japnese people can give some insight

Who is Japan, Korea and China?

[rainmaker]

I am Korean. I do not hate Japanese nor Chinese because they are from there.. I just hate someone who is ignorant. Sometimes, I even hate myself because I can be very ignorant bastard but I try not to be that person. At the end, if others do not give me a respect, I don't bother with them either. It doesn't matter if they are white, African-American, Asian, gay or lesbian. If they treat me with respect, they will also get that from me....



Hey i wanted to know whats the relations between the Japanes,Korean and Chinese people/countries today?does this country hold a grudge to this and that country and so so.I am Chinese who has no grudges to any of those countries since i like em.So my main question is does for E.g China hate Japan.Japan hate Korea and such and such from a political view and also form a normal persons view.
I do Kumdo and usually im the only chinese around so I get bad feelings sumtimes....because im chinese and everyone else is korean.
it would be good if koreans and japnese people can give some insight

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

There is no such things called Filipino martial arts. It is also from Korea... Let me tell you one more truth.. I am your daddy....
every heard of Kali.. Escrima.. Silat ???

[DarthMaul]

Hey i wanted to know whats the relations between the Japanes,Korean and Chinese people/countries today?does this country hold a grudge to this and that country and so so.I am Chinese who has no grudges to any of those countries since i like em.So my main question is does for E.g China hate Japan.Japan hate Korea and such and such from a political view and also form a normal persons view.
I do Kumdo and usually im the only chinese around so I get bad feelings sumtimes....because im chinese and everyone else is korean.
it would be good if koreans and japnese people can give some insight From my experiences in life, there are people who are elitists in all nationalities. Also, even though most people won't admit it, there are feelings of animosity between the major asian nations. And if you say there is not, then you are either not asian, naive or simply lie. Even in the countries outside of their own, like the U.S., they tend to live where others of their nationality live. Chinatown, Korean-town, Japan-town, Vietnamese-town are all great examples.

It also does not help that asians can usually tell within a few seconds of looking at someone, what nationality (Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Thai, Vietnamese) they are. And if they are from the same country, they can probably narrow down the locale of the person if they speak to them for a few minutes.

As far as animosity is concerned. I think it's a result of wars, economic issues, propaganda, upbringing. Luckily, this animosity will only escalate into (needless) violence or aggression if there are young males from each of group.

I have friends from many different countries in asia. Most of them are actually from asia and not american-born. A majority of their friends tend to be from their country and they will mostly speak their language. And when I am with them, they will sometimes make fun of other asian races/countries/etc.

People tend to be attracted to those who are similiar. This does not effect only asians, but everyone. Go to any major U.S. university campus and you will see that blacks, asians, and whites seem to associate with those of the same race/ethnicities.

I am just happy that I am "generic" enough to be mistaken for any of the major asian races/nationalities.:wink:

[DanDan]

korea resents that japan took over korea and now they claim that Dok-Do is part of Japan. but recently, they repealed the law that made Japanese media illegal in korea.

Koreans don't really like the chinese right now because of how they treat the North Korean refugees and because they claim that korea was actually a kingdom of China.

[Rawoo]

Korea may have been a kingdom under Chinese control before the Japanese took over.

[StealthPredator]

So does that mean Korea doesnt like the chinese in a political point of view or from a civilians point of view?

[Rawoo]

Well my knowledge of this history is very limisted.
I dont know why Koreans hate Chinese, it would make more sense for them to hate the Japanese coz Japanese government did more harm to the Korean people during their occupation there which ended when the Japs had lost ww2.
Korean man were forced to fight and die for the emperor of Japan and Korean women were forced to become comfort girls for the Japanese army and etc.
Actually I feel kinda sorry for Korean people, even now they are still separated to north and south Korea and they have to hate each other as well, the most unfortunate people are the North Korean people, not only do they hate south Korean people for mocking them, they also hate their own government for letting so many North Koreans strave to death while the government waste all the money buying Russian second hand weapons which probably wont do much on a real modern battlefield.
Thare is so much hate, when will it stop.

[DanDan]

^not sure about koreans hating each other...South Koreans don't hate North Korean civilians. just the North Korean authorities (Kim Jong Il). and no, korea was not a kingdom of china before japan took over. they were an independant country.

[ChowYunFat]

Fortunately (or unfortunately) these kind of feelings are not only by asian people. Think Irish and British. Or German and... umm rest of Europe. :wink: hehe or even Black and White.

[ChowYunFat]

Oh yeah and Sony is actually from Korea! In Korea, it was originally called Sanyo and those damn Japanese took it and called it Sony!

just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!:smiley:

[DanDan]

^isn't sanyo a japanese company as well?

[Rawoo]

Oh sorry my mistake, Vietnam was the country under Chinese control before the french took over. I am not sure about Korea though.

[CryingFreeman]

Korea and China have had historical conflicts prior to the last century and its not that clear cut because the territories were historically uncertain due to the numerous conflicts and rulers in the areas plus the everchanging political environments

What i would like to know is why they feel that this is important?

Perhaps they feel more people will take up Kumdo because they feel it is closer to the source of origin, but if that is the case shouldnt we all be taking up an african martial art because that is where the sword was first made?

what is the obsession with the old i sometimes wonder, and how much weight should we attribute to the old ways and the origins of things?

after all what is old now, was once new?
old techniques were once new techniques,
old fighting styles were at some point new fighting styles,
what really changes if the first samurai was korean?

[ChowYunFat]

Good points CryingFreeman!

[litige]

Fortunately (or unfortunately) these kind of feelings are not only by asian people. Think Irish and British. .

Well what they did to them was pretty low. I would hate a country if they did this, AND still had a hand on me.

[ChowYunFat]

It was hillarious how fast the IRA disarmed after the U.S. started making it "ok" to go after "terrorists".

[Akai Bushi]

Korea was a tributary state to China before Japan took over. And China has ruled Korea before, but that was during the Han dynasty and maybe one other dynasty. Yuan Dynasty controlled Korea for a time, but they weren't Chinese they were Monguls. The Monguls used the Koreans to invade Japan during the Kamakura period. Then the Kamikaze happened (heavenly wind) in mid-voyage and the Mongul/Korean fleets were destroyed and those that managed to get to shore at Hakata were slaughtered.

Two side notes: The monguls needed the Koreans because the Monguls didnt know anything about sailing. The Koreans were experts at shipbuilding and sailing.

2nd note: Someone used "Japs" up there as a term. It's kind of considered a racist term now. You might want to be careful who you use it with. I know a few Japanese people that would fight you if you called them a Jap. It denotes that Japan is still a brutal imperial state and they're not.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

samurai are actually from nigeria.

[Hai_hai's_mom]

but.... shinai are originally from india.

[Kichigai]

I think it'd be important to mention that the Katana actually originated within Korea, and that originally the Japanese tachi was a straight edged or slightly curved blade. Perhaps this writer meant to stipulate that some of the techniques that would eventually become the makeup of samurai koryu are Korean in progination.

Or maybe I'm just wrong.

[Hisham]

I think it'd be important to mention that the Katana actually originated within Korea, and that originally the Japanese tachi was a straight edged or slightly curved blade. Perhaps this writer meant to stipulate that some of the techniques that would eventually become the makeup of samurai koryu are Korean in progination.

Or maybe I'm just wrong.
IMHO you're wrong , the Katana could be described as a shorter newer version of the Tachi (long sword) with less curve angle (for practical reasons the Ninjato was a bit shorter than a standard Katana and perfectly straight) as the latter was used mainly from horseback thus the necessity of bigger curve angle to make it easy to slash with for the rider, the Katana was developed as the infantry overtook the cavalry in strategic importance in feudal Japan. As far as Korea being the origin of the Katana ,i wouldn t think so , try researching its forging technic, even better try asking about the subject at http://www.swordforum.com/ (http://www.swordforum.com/) .Was the katana used by some Koreans ?wouldn't be suprised with all the exchange that was going on before the Tokugawa period .There's a book that i took a look at on ancient korean weapons, was refered to me by a Korean teacher of mine unfortunately i don't remember its name.

[Kichigai]

I only question the validity of the Katana's current Japanese-written history, if only because Amakuni (sp?)-'s inception of it sounds more like legend than actually deviated from a primary source.

[T.Lee]

but.... shinai are originally from india.
dude, youre stealing my lines... weak sauce.

[Akai Bushi]

The first swords in Japan were straight(tsurugi) and came via China and Korea. Right around the begining of the Nara period(8th century) the first tachi came into use these blades were curved making it easy to draw on horse back. As time went on this tachi became the katana(smaller) and no-dachi(larger). The Japanese curved sword continued to develop and became the strongest and best build sword in the world by the 14th century.

[mero]

Actually, straight curved blades were in existance in Japan and Korean(as well as many other cultures all over the world) long before 8th century. At best it may be a case of convergent evolution but even that would be a stretch given flow of culture and technology.


The first swords in Japan were straight(tsurugi) and came via China and Korea. Right around the begining of the Nara period(8th century) the first tachi came into use these blades were curved making it easy to draw on horse back. As time went on this tachi became the katana(smaller) and no-dachi(larger). The Japanese curved sword continued to develop and became the strongest and best build sword in the world by the 14th century.

[mero]

You'd have to deconstruct everything to make sense of any of this.

First there was no "China" as we know it today. The Ching dynasty under which Korea was a tributary state was not "Chinese" at all in the simple sense. They were Manchus with different language and culture. Sort of like when French conquered England and you had English royalty who spoke only French, remember Braveheart? Mongols also conquered everything under the sun all the way out to Europe and they certainly were not "Chinese". EVen "Korea" wasn't a single entity. It was made up of various Han(different from Chinese Han) kingdoms throughout history until unification by Koryo around 900-something. In any case, tributory or not Korea somehow managed to always have its own governmental, soverign entity albeit in submission to its neighbors at times. Recent ire between China and Korea happened recently when Chinese academics started claiming the Koguryo was part of China, etc., not because Korea was a tributary state.


Korea was a tributary state to China before Japan took over. And China has ruled Korea before, but that was during the Han dynasty and maybe one other dynasty. Yuan Dynasty controlled Korea for a time, but they weren't Chinese they were Monguls. The Monguls used the Koreans to invade Japan during the Kamakura period. Then the Kamikaze happened (heavenly wind) in mid-voyage and the Mongul/Korean fleets were destroyed and those that managed to get to shore at Hakata were slaughtered.

Two side notes: The monguls needed the Koreans because the Monguls didnt know anything about sailing. The Koreans were experts at shipbuilding and sailing.

2nd note: Someone used "Japs" up there as a term. It's kind of considered a racist term now. You might want to be careful who you use it with. I know a few Japanese people that would fight you if you called them a Jap. It denotes that Japan is still a brutal imperial state and they're not.

[Akai Bushi]

The Ching may not have been Han Chinese, but they strove to become Chinese. They ruled by the Chinese system, dressed Chinese, married Chinese, and even became educated in Chinese. If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose. The Monguls on the other hand were in no way Han Chinese. They cared nothing about the old Chinese system or culture. And true there was no Korea, I guess I should have said Koryo or the Yi Dynasty.

[mero]

Absolutely not. Note all of "civilized" Asia esteemed Chinese system, dress, education, etc., as did Korea and Japan. THat doesn't make Korea nor Japan "chinese". What's important is that Manchus were foreign rulers make no mistake! This was a pervasive stickler in China all thoughout history all throughout CHing dynasty. This fact even partly caused communist party during cultural revolution, to take efforts at undermining this notion with a more homogenous construction of CHinese identity.

But back to my my point which is not that there was no KOrea, or China or Japan for that matter but that modern notions of what Chinese, KOrean, Japanese can't be used generically which I think you did before. KOrean, CHinese, Japanese national identities certainly existed just not in packagible modern national construction but in very complicated ways that need deconstructing.


The Ching may not have been Han Chinese, but they strove to become Chinese. They ruled by the Chinese system, dressed Chinese, married Chinese, and even became educated in Chinese. If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose. The Monguls on the other hand were in no way Han Chinese. They cared nothing about the old Chinese system or culture. And true there was no Korea, I guess I should have said Koryo or the Yi Dynasty.

[Hisham]

But back to my my point which is not that there was no KOrea, or China or Japan for that matter but that modern notions of what Chinese, KOrean, Japanese can't be used generically which I think you did before. KOrean, CHinese, Japanese national identities certainly existed just not in packagible modern national construction but in very complicated ways that need deconstructing.
Logical and very true IMO and not only for those three countries, the way we see the world and how our ancestors saw it is for sure different for instance.

[Yo...osh!]

From what I've read there wasn't really a concept of "China" in the sense of a homogenous state but a Chinese concept/system of "Tian Xia" which is very hard to translate but roughly means "All under heaven". "Tian Xia" included many different races. The emperor who rules "Tian Xia" is the connection between heaven and earth.

The ruler of "Tian Xia" did not necessarily have to be Chinese. As we know from history, the mongols and manchurians ruled. What is interesting is that the mongols and Machurians didn't displace but adopted the system of "Tian Xia" because it was so entrenched. In many ways, the only way to rule such a large land mass and the predominately Chinese population was through the pre-existing system itself.

The result was that over time the mongols and Manchurians just became the next "Chinese" dynasty.

[Akai Bushi]

There is a difference in how the Manchus, who ruled China, and the Japanese and Koreans who esteemed the Chinese system. With the Japanese and Koreans they always found a way to make it their own and change it to fit their own views. With the Manchus they wanted and tried to become copies of the last Ming Dynasty. There are very few Dynasties in CHinese history who can becalled 100% Han Chinese. Even the great Tang Dynasty had barbarian blood. But they all, except the Monguls, became Chinese in every sense except in DNA and even in DNA they started becoming HAN Chinese after they started marrying Han Chinese brides.

[LNGUYEN]

Oh sorry my mistake, Vietnam was the country under Chinese control before the french took over. I am not sure about Korea though.

Where did you get this information from because it was totally wrong. If you don't know it for sure, don't say it. First Korea, then Vietnam, what next Indonesia?

[mero]

Dude, the argument isn't that was no difference between Manchus and Korea/Japan in their esteem of China.

The argument is that you're misusing modern, nationalistic conventions to make hoky points without deconstructing and contextualizing concepts. E.g. your last comments about 100% Han chinese and dyasties: Japanese royalty(Japanese emperor claiming he has Korean in his ancestry recently and the tombs), Korean royalty, or all royalty for that matter are not 100% ANYTHING.

Just chill with your claims about koreans, sword curvature, chinese royalty, etc..


There is a difference in how the Manchus, who ruled China, and the Japanese and Koreans who esteemed the Chinese system. With the Japanese and Koreans they always found a way to make it their own and change it to fit their own views. With the Manchus they wanted and tried to become copies of the last Ming Dynasty. There are very few Dynasties in CHinese history who can becalled 100% Han Chinese. Even the great Tang Dynasty had barbarian blood. But they all, except the Monguls, became Chinese in every sense except in DNA and even in DNA they started becoming HAN Chinese after they started marrying Han Chinese brides.

[Akai Bushi]

Look I understand that East Asia didn't have the concept of Nationalism until the mid 19th century but if I can't call them Japanese, Koreans or Chinese then what can I call them. The fact is the Han Dynasty had control over the northern Korean peninsula. The Monguls controlled the whole thing. The Ming and Ching Dynasties recieved tribute and exercised some power within the Yi dynasty. The Yi government during the 19th century had very little stability. Then the Japanese easily annexed the peninsula.

And the matter of curved swords. I wasn't discussing if curved swords were already invented or used in other parts of the world I was saying when they came into use in Japan. That was during the Early Nara Jidai(around 710). It may have been somewhat earlier by maybe a century, but that is because when dealing with this ancient of history coming from a society that just started putting down their histories and histories entrenched in mythology at that it is hard to get an exact date. But heavy use of TACHI can be seen in use starting in the Nara Period. Before that TSURUGI were in use.

And Why ask me to Chill. This is an enjoyable discussion for me. I respect your view point. It seems to me that you have a strong knowledge of East Asian history Mero, which is rare.

[mero]

I don't know if you realize or not but your historical summaries tinted wth sinophilic prejudice and misinformation. Your last post about Korea for example is just historically, factually wrong.

About the sword thing: you responded to discussion about origins of katana, not about when Japanese started using curved swords. I'll agree with you about when Japanese started using curved swords but I was pointing out all of asia and other cultures all over the world curved their swords before it happened in Japan. Did it happen independently apart from influence in Japan? Probably not given flow of culture and technology. At best it's convergent evolution which I doubt. If you don't disagree with this that's great.

Korea:
The issue here is sovereignty. Your summaries undermine korean sovereignty in history which is very Japanese since it serves to whitewash its militaristic past. This is a hot button topic in Korea-Japan relations: the whole there was no Korea, it was unstable and easily annexed, etc.. Such racist, revisionism is alive and well in Japan. Very annoying. If you're not Japanese I don't know why you would give off this slant. Re:sovereignty though, Korea was always an independent, sovergn national entity throughout history. The Ming and the Ching considered Korea to be a civil, enlightened nation that was part of its China-centric civilization. Hence, the lack of need to invade and conquer it or subsume it as a part of China. Japan sought to be part of this world and came close during Heian era but the unlearned, uncouth country war lords, aka Samurai wrestled control away from the aristocratic, cultured elite ushering in militaristic chaos and were subsequently looked down upon by its "civil" neighbors Korea and China. While Japanese warlords and samurai brought centralized Heain era into militaristic feudalism, Chosun had agricultural scholar society eating rice, heated floors, inventing Korean alphabet, kings steeped in Confucious classics, etc.. This is why Korea was poorly prepared to defend itself during Hideyoshi's invasions and Japanese encroachments during turn of 19th century. Nonetheless 20th century Japanese invasion, oocupation of Korea was definitely a first unlike the Korean peninsula had ever experienced. Full blown occupation and subsuming Korea as a part of another nation never happened before. Hence the troubled relationship between Korea and Japan even to this day.


Look I understand that East Asia didn't have the concept of Nationalism until the mid 19th century but if I can't call them Japanese, Koreans or Chinese then what can I call them. The fact is the Han Dynasty had control over the northern Korean peninsula. The Monguls controlled the whole thing. The Ming and Ching Dynasties recieved tribute and exercised some power within the Yi dynasty. The Yi government during the 19th century had very little stability. Then the Japanese easily annexed the peninsula.

And the matter of curved swords. I wasn't discussing if curved swords were already invented or used in other parts of the world I was saying when they came into use in Japan. That was during the Early Nara Jidai(around 710). It may have been somewhat earlier by maybe a century, but that is because when dealing with this ancient of history coming from a society that just started putting down their histories and histories entrenched in mythology at that it is hard to get an exact date. But heavy use of TACHI can be seen in use starting in the Nara Period. Before that TSURUGI were in use.

And Why ask me to Chill. This is an enjoyable discussion for me. I respect your view point. It seems to me that you have a strong knowledge of East Asian history Mero, which is rare.

[mero]

change sinophillic to japan-philic not that it's a real word or anything.

[DanDan]

and we can all blame this on america for introducing western/modern weapons to japan and arousing imperialistic thoughts among the japanese.

[Akai Bushi]

and we can all blame this on america for introducing western/modern weapons to japan and arousing imperialistic thoughts among the japanese.
Look Japan invaded Korea long before the Americans came into the picture. Remember a man named Hideyoshi. He had dreams of Conquering the Korean penisusla and China long before the Americans came along. He even invaded in the late 16th century. But due to the Korean turtle boats cutting the supply line, the mass influx of Chinese military support to Koryo, the fact that there was decent among Hideyoshi's generals, and that Hideyoshi died Koryo wasn't occupied for very long. The Americans on the other hand did supply military arms to Japan just as many European countries did in the 19th century. It's called making money. The ideas of imperialism probably came via England or France. America wasn't really a very big imperial power. We did push our weight around, but imperialism was mainly a European affair. But luckily we all have nothing to fear from Japanese or European imperialism anymore.

[mero]

Hideyoshi never occupied Korea. He invaded it twice and failed although he reaked havok pillaging and burning things down. But then Japan was always despised for their pirating and thievary by Chosun court even before Hideyoshi's invasion. The invasions of course only solidified Korean prejudices of Japan being uncouth, barbaric, etc.. And korea was Chosun, not Koryo, when hideyoshi invaded.


Look Japan invaded Korea long before the Americans came into the picture. Remember a man named Hideyoshi. He had dreams of Conquering the Korean penisusla and China long before the Americans came along. He even invaded in the late 16th century. But due to the Korean turtle boats cutting the supply line, the mass influx of Chinese military support to Koryo, the fact that there was decent among Hideyoshi's generals, and that Hideyoshi died Koryo wasn't occupied for very long. The Americans on the other hand did supply military arms to Japan just as many European countries did in the 19th century. It's called making money. The ideas of imperialism probably came via England or France. America wasn't really a very big imperial power. We did push our weight around, but imperialism was mainly a European affair. But luckily we all have nothing to fear from Japanese or European imperialism anymore.

[rainmaker]

True that.. I even read those Japanes pirates poke little babies on the stick and burn them like barbeque.....


Hideyoshi never occupied Korea. He invaded it twice and failed although he reaked havok pillaging and burning things down. But then Japan was always despised for their pirating and thievary by Chosun court even before Hideyoshi's invasion. The invasions of course only solidified Korean prejudices of Japan being uncouth, barbaric, etc.. And korea was Chosun, not Koryo, when hideyoshi invaded.

[Akai Bushi]

Yeah the Japanese warrior class and pirates have done some pretty nasty things throughout history. An interesting example is when Ming China wouldn't trade with Japan until the Pirate problem was brought under control. Only one Ashikaga Shogun was ever able to do it and the next shogun after him failed to keep the same kind of control. Anyways, that Shogun was Ashikaga Yoshimitsu, if he caught any pirate he would boil them alive in a copper pot as a punishment and warning to other pirates.

***
A good book to read is silence. That book addresses the pain the Japanese government inflicted on the Catholic missionaries during the 17th century. The Japanese became so good at inflicting pain that they got a few priests to renounce their faith.
It's amazing how mankind is capable of so many great things as well as so many horrible atrocities.

A side note about Japanese Wako(pirates) many of them weren't even Japanese there were many chinese among their ranks as well. Its amazing how people can pillage their own country.

[mero]

Actually most of Japanese pirates were Japanese. Overwhelmingly. To describe Japanese piracy as Chinese pillaging their own country is a very Japanese Revisionist thing to say. Basically dishonest, inflammatory and false. But then you seem to regurgitate this crap unassumingly.

[Akai Bushi]

Yes most of the Wako were Japanese but many were also Chinese raiding their own country for wealth. The Chinese government had band foreign trade during this period and many Chinese found it profitable to become Japanese Wako.

If you need proof of Chinese among the Wako ranks here are some links and they're not Japanese sites they're encyclopedias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wako

http://www.hexafind.com/encyclopedia/Wokou

"In contrast with previous Wokou, however, the pirate bands of the middle 16th century no longer consisted preponderantly of Japanese. Although Wokou remained the common lable by which they were identified, most of these bandits were in fact, if not in name, Chinese. " according to the 2nd link.

[mero]

Aint no one argung that that Chinese weren't among wako ranks...

You keep on confusing issue at hand.

Fact remains that to describe Japanese piracy as Chinese pillaging their own country is a very Japanese Revisionist thing to say is just simply dishonest, inflammatory and false!!!


Yes most of the Wako were Japanese but many were also Chinese raiding their own country for wealth. The Chinese government had band foreign trade during this period and many Chinese found it profitable to become Japanese Wako.

If you need proof of Chinese among the Wako ranks here are some links and they're not Japanese sites they're encyclopedias.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wako

http://www.hexafind.com/encyclopedia/Wokou

"In contrast with previous Wokou, however, the pirate bands of the middle 16th century no longer consisted preponderantly of Japanese. Although Wokou remained the common lable by which they were identified, most of these bandits were in fact, if not in name, Chinese. " according to the 2nd link.

[Akai Bushi]

Look if I'm Chinese and I'm a pirate raiding the Chinese coastline. I am pillaging my own country. It's what pirates do, they take what isn't theirs, by force if necessary. I am in no way a Revisionist. I'm stating the facts. Obviously we have been taught two different versions of history. I learned my version in American colleges. Your view point seem scared, scared to admit even one negative or what you consider negative point about Korean history or Chinese history. I have nothing to protect. I don't care about Korean historic soverienty or Japanese historic soverienty for that matter. I'm only stating what I have read in countless history books. If you think I side with a Japanese revisionist view point, you are wrong. Because I'm willing to admit the truth when it comes to Japanese history as well.
+ 1/3 of Japanese Kuge(nobles) during the Japanese classical age were of Korean ancestory.
+ Japanese and Koreans are of the same common relation. Cousins
+ Yoshimitsu did give tribute to Ming China,(even though many Japanese historians won't admit it.)
+ The Japanese Emperor could have some Korean roots
+ Kaya(southern tip of Korea claimed to be conquered by the Japanese) was not the property of Yamato, just very close Allies.
+ The stone piller in Koguryo talking of an invasion is not speaking of the Japanese invading Korea, even though many historians in Japan believe so.
Obviously your view point is based on blind Korean Nationalist historic propaganda. I don't buy into Japanese lies about history or Korean lies about history. In the middle you shall find the truth. Just like in America we are taught that there was no other option than to drop the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while in Japan Japanese are taught that America was just showing off their power to the Russians and killing women and children in the process. Again I say the true is found in the middle. Don't be blinded by your pride.

[mero]

Cut the irresponsive, irrelevant ranting and raving crap.

The FACT STILL REMAINS you wrongly described Japanese piracy as Chinese pillaging their own country. That's just dishonest, inflammatory and false!!!

I'm sorry but I'm just calling out your bs claims as I see it.

Also, I didn't just accuse you with generic namecalling but I pointed out which specific claims of yours were BS and why. If you think I'm spouting korean nationalistic propaganda, I'm all ears but please tell me what false claims and/or reasoning I've made instead of the smoke and mirrors bitching and moaning.

p.s. congrats on having gone to "american colleges". I guess that's a real big achievement for you. :wink:


Look if I'm Chinese and I'm a pirate raiding the Chinese coastline. I am pillaging my own country. It's what pirates do, they take what isn't theirs, by force if necessary. I am in no way a Revisionist. I'm stating the facts. Obviously we have been taught two different versions of history. I learned my version in American colleges. Your view point seem scared, scared to admit even one negative or what you consider negative point about Korean history or Chinese history. I have nothing to protect. I don't care about Korean historic soverienty or Japanese historic soverienty for that matter. I'm only stating what I have read in countless history books. If you think I side with a Japanese revisionist view point, you are wrong. Because I'm willing to admit the truth when it comes to Japanese history as well.
+ 1/3 of Japanese Kuge(nobles) during the Japanese classical age were of Korean ancestory.
+ Japanese and Koreans are of the same common relation. Cousins
+ Yoshimitsu did give tribute to Ming China,(even though many Japanese historians won't admit it.)
+ The Japanese Emperor could have some Korean roots
+ Kaya(southern tip of Korea claimed to be conquered by the Japanese) was not the property of Yamato, just very close Allies.
+ The stone piller in Koguryo talking of an invasion is not speaking of the Japanese invading Korea, even though many historians in Japan believe so.
Obviously your view point is based on blind Korean Nationalist historic propaganda. I don't buy into Japanese lies about history or Korean lies about history. In the middle you shall find the truth. Just like in America we are taught that there was no other option than to drop the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while in Japan Japanese are taught that America was just showing off their power to the Russians and killing women and children in the process. Again I say the true is found in the middle. Don't be blinded by your pride.

[Sepiraph]

So Samurai is still Japanese right? :)

[Akai Bushi]

Mero,
There is no getting through to you. I'm not trying to insult you I'm calling your point as I see it. I have what I believe to be the truth and you have what you believe to be the truth. This arguement will get no where if we continue. You'll just call my points false, hoky, and not to the point. I'll continue to spout my "Japanese Imperialist" version of history and we'll both end up bitter. I choose to avoid that situation. And you say I'm insulting you, but just calling my points false or hoky doesn't prove you right either. So I'm calling it quits arguing with you.

And in response to the last post,
Yes Samurai are Japanese and orginated in Japan. They started in the Heian period(794-1185) of Japan. They were bands grouped together based on familial and semi-familial grouping to protect usually some KUGE's(Noble's) property holdings outside the capital at Heian. These groups were hired at first because the conscripted armies were basically worthless. The samurai slowly became something other than a thug and started grouping around strong noble leaders such as the Taira and Minamoto.

[mero]

This not about disagreement of idealogy here but historical fact. What you need to do is do some analytical thinking. I'm sure you learned how to outline arguments and responses if you studied history past intro level.

I pointed which specific claims of yours I disagreed with and gave FACT and REASON. I specifically pointed out WHICH claims of yours I disagreed with fact and reason. Whether you agree or not, you can literally outline what my disagreements were.

Instead of responsive answers, you've been dodging the issue with smoke and mirror emotionalism and irresponsive generalities and then claim you did the same? Do you just not see the distinctions here?

Good grief.


Mero,
There is no getting through to you. I'm not trying to insult you I'm calling your point as I see it. I have what I believe to be the truth and you have what you believe to be the truth. This arguement will get no where if we continue. You'll just call my points false, hoky, and not to the point. I'll continue to spout my "Japanese Imperialist" version of history and we'll both end up bitter. I choose to avoid that situation. And you say I'm insulting you, but just calling my points false or hoky doesn't prove you right either. So I'm calling it quits arguing with you.

And in response to the last post,
Yes Samurai are Japanese and orginated in Japan. They started in the Heian period(794-1185) of Japan. They were bands grouped together based on familial and semi-familial grouping to protect usually some KUGE's(Noble's) property holdings outside the capital at Heian. These groups were hired at first because the conscripted armies were basically worthless. The samurai slowly became something other than a thug and started grouping around strong noble leaders such as the Taira and Minamoto.

[kuzu70]

What difference does it make either way?

[mero]

e.g. why don't you just admit that you were wrong in describing wako phenomenon as Chinese pillaging Chinese.

That's just a false statement.

[Akai Bushi]

I'm not going to admit I'm wrong because I don't think I'm wrong.
If an over whelming number of Chinese were Wako in the 16th century and they pillage China then they are committing piracy against their own country. I feel that is a perfectly logical statement. And you don't just argue my points with reason and facts you just call it imfammatory, false and hoky. I haven't seen any really pieces of proof conserning your points of view. I at least proved to you that there was an overwhelming number of Chinese in the Wako with backup sources. And as I said before this isn't going to do us any good to continue.

[ISSAC RU]

.....
China is like a big daddy , Korea and Japan are like his sons
Korea is a little obedian nice kid .
Japan is like a kid who always bring trouble to his big daddy.
That is the situation back in 15-17 century

[rainmaker]

Very good point for 16 years old. I guess we had many step daddies, daddies changes every 5 ~ 30 years.. Problem is we don't know who is our mommy. No wonder Japan kid is rebel in the family..




.....
China is like a big daddy , Korea and Japan are like his sons
Korea is a little obedian nice kid .
Japan is like a kid who always bring trouble to his big daddy.
That is the situation back in 15-17 century

[ISSAC RU]

who is japan's mom ?

I guess she will be mongolian.....

[rainmaker]

I am not so sure about that.. I don't think none of Chinese emperor was ever successful to invades Japan. Most Korean, Chinese and even Polish have Mongolian spot, birth mark, on their butt..




who is japan's mom ?

I guess she will be mongolian.....

[Sa Mu]

another proof to kendo is not from china is that if you watch all the sword techniques of china, it is all basically based on "extravegance" forms meaning that it's all for show and entertainment for the public but kendo is on the other hand... more of a martial art for the public?? and the swords from china are completely different from the swords from Japan.


Actually if you watch the sword techniques of china most of them are based on killing people. Only the popularist forms were for entertainment and used for Chinese opera and more recently film. There are many schools that teach sword use without extravagance.
The swords from Japan and China share a lineage - look up chokuto and other straight swords such as ninja gatana. Although the Japanese sword smiths greatly improved the design, materials and balance over time.

[Taisaburo]

If you are born in USA, don't you call yourself American? My mother side of family came from Korea or China 2000 years ago. We are sure about that. But there are no samurai at that time. I thought that there was no word for Samurai yet at that time. There were some kind organized millitary back then, but there were no word for Samurai yet.

When Ashikaga was coming up around 1180, Kamakura bakufu organized 1192, Samurai (which new kind gang at that time) was organized. I thought this is what I learn from history book. So Time did not much. There is no record about the word call Samurai before Ashikaga.



Also Japanese are not only come from China and Korean. Polynesian, Mongolian, Ainu, Hayato, and so on also.



Read Tale of Genji. There is no word call Samurai at that book.

It is like Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Honda, Isuzu, Suzuki, Sony, Cannon, Toshiba, Panasonic, Yamaha, Subaru, NEC, Koizumi, Godzilla, Mosura, me,

come from Korea? Enough is enough.

This is what I feel like.

Sorry

Yamaguchi. PS. I have Korean Friends, and I love Korean BBQ. We talk about this sometimes, but they said it is political. We should ignore.

Actually, Samurai were around when Shotoku was ruling. (They weren't the Samurai you would normally think of though.) So the word Samurai was around then.

[Taisaburo]

I am not so sure about that.. I don't think none of Chinese emperor was ever successful to invades Japan. Most Korean, Chinese and even Polish have Mongolian spot, birth mark, on their butt..

They were a tribe of Northern China. I believe.

[JaungHyungMin]

I managed to read up to page 7 or 10 and realized I wouldn't get done reading all of the replies unless I took a couple days off so I decided to skip to the last page. It seem's there are people with the right theories and many facts, but there seems to be a very simple but immense misunderstanding. I can't recall which reply I read it off of, but let me try and smooth some creases.

First off, the modern martial art/sports kendo and kumdo are exact copies of one another. Kendo originated from Japan obviously, and was invented by the Japanese. Soon, South Korea merely took it's Chinese characters and pronounced it the way their language spoke it and created Kumdo. There, a huge misunderstanding solved.

Now, the true differences in the Korean and Japanese martial arts are as follows:

During the period of time when Korea was not Korea at all but Three Kingdoms, (The Shinra/Shilla, Baekje, and Goguryo.) in which each had its own form of sword and fighting style(sort of.). As far as I'm concerned the basis of the cultures from Korea and Japan came from China. Only BASIS. Samurai's wern't just born in Korea and decide to go to Japan.

China influenced most of the Three Kingdom's of Korea's culture and even its swords. They were flat, double bladed and very simple. But, as they are humans, the kingdoms soon began to change some of the culture they accumulated from China, changing customs, language, and clothing. The Hwarangs of the Shilla kingdom, the signature warriors of Korean history developed a different sword style, however.

Their sword was flat, but had only a blade on one side, much like Japan's ninja swords, but cruder. The reknowned metal working techinque the Japanese swordsmiths invented were not used, but signs of such methods were being used. Generally, it was not the Hwarang's that deserve the honor of such recognition, but the Goguryou Kingdom which was the kingdom of warriors. Their sword style is considered the traditional Korean sword, the Jik Do. It is a flat, double edged blade. It's design is similar to Tai Chi and so is its fighting style, yet it is also different in subtle and also huge ways. I'm not sure when, but during the course of Korean history, the advances in weapon evolution soon reached the slightly curved, one edged blade. It is believed that centuries after people came from the China and Korea regions to Japan, the Japanese people produced their own language and totally different culture. There are some subtle and rare similarities within the Japanese culture that relates to the Korean and Chinese cultures, but as I said, they are extremely subtle.

The Japanese people, at some point during the period Shilla or Goguryo in 100-600 A.D(The Three Kingdoms period transformed into the Parhae and then the Unified Shilla Kingdom) or so, presumably during an expedition or a pirate raid or maybe even when a Shilla or Goguryo warrior came to Japan, introduced the curved sword to the Japanese people who in turn, experimented and perfected the various sword engineering and production techniques. This theory is actually one of my colleagues.

My theory, is that during the single Goryuh Kingdom, at least 300 years after the Three Kingdom's period, in 900 A.D, the more renovated and less crude curved sword came to Japan during the late Nara or late Heian period and in turn, Japan perfected the sword,etc.

So in all ways, the Samurai and Korean warriors are two completely different sword disciplines. The Japanese people DID perfect the sword making techniques and set up totally different warrior codes.

Of course, myself being a historian, I speak not in facts but in theories composed of what meager facts human history has to offer. Who knows? Maybe Japan just happened to create the curved sword completely on its own. But its certain that people came from China and Korea regions to Japan. Human's stopped growing out of the ground after Jesus' birth :P

[jerrykrecek]

Well, the Samurang odyssey appeared to be a fabrication in the end. You cannot take this story as truth. Other sources dismissed it. Yes, there is a similarity in the name, but most recent research shows that this story was a fake to boost up Korean national pride. Too bad it is only a half truth.

[mero]

Again, you twist the issue to save face. It's understandable. I guess we all would try to do the same after putting our foot in our mouths with a ridiculous statement.

Wako throughout history well before 16th century were predominantly Japanese.

ADmit it.

Were there chinese in the mix? I'm sure there were but that's not the issue and not the claim you stated earlier and CERTAINLY not enough to describe japanese piracy as being chinese ravaging their own. THat's just nipponphilic whitewashing.


I'm not going to admit I'm wrong because I don't think I'm wrong.
If an over whelming number of Chinese were Wako in the 16th century and they pillage China then they are committing piracy against their own country. I feel that is a perfectly logical statement. And you don't just argue my points with reason and facts you just call it imfammatory, false and hoky. I haven't seen any really pieces of proof conserning your points of view. I at least proved to you that there was an overwhelming number of Chinese in the Wako with backup sources. And as I said before this isn't going to do us any good to continue.

[mero]

Exaggeration of course but fabrication? WHy do you say?


Well, the Samurang odyssey appeared to be a fabrication in the end. You cannot take this story as truth. Other sources dismissed it. Yes, there is a similarity in the name, but most recent research shows that this story was a fake to boost up Korean national pride. Too bad it is only a half truth.

[senjlee]

To Mero,

While reading through this thread, I kinda felt the passion of you.
Even though what you and some others' debates were off the topic, I know that what you said in this thread are true. Chosun dynasty was by far better civilized country than the rest of the world in the beginning, as they were printing books using metal prints. Even the ideology of the royal family and the ruling class was for the well being of people, not for their own profit, just as we can see in the invention of easy Korean alphabet for the people who couldn't afford education, which was quite advanced. During that time of 200 years since her beginning, she prospered so much that even common people were enjoying arts, while her law prohibited the ruling class from the extravagance of living, which defined the simple character of her culture compared to the splendor of her precedessors. She was strong, too. She was expanding her territory against China and eliminating Japanese pirates. But that long peceful time made her less alert, so later she had hard times with newly arising powers of Hideyoshi and Qing. Nevertheless, it's system was advanced enough, so it managed to survive 500 years, which is rare. Average life span of a nation or kingdom is around 200 years. And that Chosun became the weakest link in 19th centry, which is inevitable for her old age.

About the original topic of this thread, I believe samurai culture is original to japan. Even though I fancy Bushido, I don't fancy samurai. Because their (samurais') code is subjective to their lord. Regardless of the profound influence of confucism and buddhism, they were still ruthless to the enemy, they didn't care for women or children. History speaks it aloud.

[senjlee]

Also Kendo is Japanese.
I don't know who in the korea kumdo association(KKA), in the first, started claiming that Kendo is Korean. I know who is leading that false claim nowadays, though.
I know that claim is about 30 years old, and it's very political.
It's true that there have been original kenjutsu's in korea similar to Japanese. However, modern kendo was developed under the huge influence of Itto-ryu, which is Japanese. Kendo's curriculum had been developed in Itto-ryu schools.
KKA cannot have the credit they claim, because Itto-ryu, as well as Niten-Ichi ryu, is Japanese.
That kind of claim is isolating korean kendo players from the rest of the world, and confusing others.
Above all that, it's an insult to the people who deserve the credit.

[greg]

japanese and koreans origianlly came from china. Japanese are not Actually from Japan. There are idiginous people to japan called Ainu, that were taken over by the invading imigrants (japanese). Samurai were actually originally called Saburai, but was changed to Samurai because the pronounciation was easier. Samurai is a Japanese word. Korean warriors may have inspired the Samurai...who really knows. I know that even koreans wil agree that the way of the sword was originally developed by the Japanese Samurai.

word em up

[KhawMengLee]

If you look at Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi, or Kusanagi, given to the Emperor by the Sun Goddess Amaterasu, its basically a Chinese Gim sword.

[bullet08]

Also Kendo is Japanese.
I don't know who in the korea kumdo association(KKA), in the first, started claiming that Kendo is Korean. I know who is leading that false claim nowadays, though.
I know that claim is about 30 years old, and it's very political.
It's true that there have been original kenjutsu's in korea similar to Japanese. However, modern kendo was developed under the huge influence of Itto-ryu, which is Japanese. Kendo's curriculum had been developed in Itto-ryu schools.
KKA cannot have the credit they claim, because Itto-ryu, as well as Niten-Ichi ryu, is Japanese.
That kind of claim is isolating korean kendo players from the rest of the world, and confusing others.
Above all that, it's an insult to the people who deserve the credit.

not KKA, they are member of IKF. i think KKA actually follows very close, if not exactly what IKF dictates.

it's WKA (World Kum Do Association) that's keep trying to change the whole load of stuff, and saying it's all korean.

pete

[bullet08]

japanese and koreans origianlly came from china. Japanese are not Actually from Japan. There are idiginous people to japan called Ainu, that were taken over by the invading imigrants (japanese). Samurai were actually originally called Saburai, but was changed to Samurai because the pronounciation was easier. Samurai is a Japanese word. Korean warriors may have inspired the Samurai...who really knows. I know that even koreans wil agree that the way of the sword was originally developed by the Japanese Samurai.

word em up

koreans are not from china. we are more closely related to mongolians.

pete

[bullet08]

I'm not going to admit I'm wrong because I don't think I'm wrong.
If an over whelming number of Chinese were Wako in the 16th century and they pillage China then they are committing piracy against their own country. I feel that is a perfectly logical statement. And you don't just argue my points with reason and facts you just call it imfammatory, false and hoky. I haven't seen any really pieces of proof conserning your points of view. I at least proved to you that there was an overwhelming number of Chinese in the Wako with backup sources. And as I said before this isn't going to do us any good to continue.

by that logic, US never invaded iraq since most of US military is now made up of people of african decendant, south american decendants.. heck.. there's barely any native americans in US military now.

iraq was invaded by whole bunch of africans/latin americans/europeans! damn.. now i feel good about the whole iraq situation. why are people blaming the whole stituation in iraq on US? there's hardly any 'americans' in that conflict!

right?

it's not who's in that organization. it's who owns that organization. if japanese owns, and leads the Wako, it's japanese organization. if it was chinese owned and operated, it's chinese.

like WWII japanese imperial army.. there were number of koreans and chinese conscripts in that army, but do we call them korean/chinese army?

pete

[Akai Bushi]

I tried to take myself out of this ridiculous arguement, but you had to pull me back in.
Wako aren't an organization. There are many groups. But Wako is just a general term for Pirates. There were Chinese Wako and Japanese Wako and mixed. Piracy knows no borders. It's all about money. Where was the money at that time? China. Chinese and Japanese pillaged and stole from China. I'm not trying to defend what Japanese or Chinese Wako did to China. I'm just stating the way things were. China had band all foreign trade at that time so freelancers took it upon themselves to brake that law, Japanese and Chinese, and commit piracy.

Governments didn't run the Wako, if thats what you're thinking. The Japanese government wasn't taking a cut. And if you say they were I'd like to see your proof. There were regional warlords, but no central government running or making money directly from these Wako. In fact Ashikaga Yoshimitsu took many steps to stop Japanese Wako.

The US invasion of Iraq is a totally different story. The US government sent in troops(are doing a fine job I might add) and liberated a country under a dictator. And I think you have us Americans all wrong. We have Latin Americans, Whites people, Asians, and many more, but we are all Americans.

[Hisham]

koreans are not from china. we are more closely related to mongolians.

pete

The chinese Han majority are also closely related to the mongolians, like it or not the chinese koreans and japanese are pretty close as far as there ethnical background is concerned and generally speaking culturally two, the exchange between the three will continue as enemies or as friends, it's in the nature of things.
Dunno why this thread is still alive though.

[Hiryu]

I guess the guestion is, what is "NOT" from Korea...

Answer: Anything from Scotland. If 't ain't Scottish, its Crrraaaaap.

And remember, God delivered Whisky to the Irish to keep them from ruling the world.


....what were we talking about?

[KhawMengLee]

The US government sent in troops(are doing a fine job I might add) and liberated a country under a dictator.

Yup...and along with introducing democracy(*snigger*) and security(*cough*), they also introduced Al-Qaida to Iraq.