Percentage of Kendoka who have trained in Japan

[ben]

I was wondering if anyone knew of any studies or comparable data whereby we could rate the percentage of kendoka who have trained in Japan, as compared with the other mainstream Japanese arts of judo and karate.

My feeling is that even though we are a community that is few in number, proportionally the number of us who have gone on to the equivalent of "higher education" in kendo, ie study at a reputable dojo in Japan, is far higher than in any other martial art.

Is there a way of quantifying this?

I think it would be a very interesting area of study: firstly to find out if it is demonstrably true, and then to ask, if so, why?

Any ideas? Maybe we could start with a few straw polls amongst forum members' clubmates - how many have trained in Japan? I suspect that with the University of Mebourne Kendo Club, the figure would be around 25-30%.

^?^
b

[Ares2907]

I think the majority of the people over shodan at my dojo have spent time training in Japan for varying lengths of time.

At a rough working, 70% of our dan grades have trained in Japan. Including kyu-grades and beginners it drops to about 50%

[kendokamax]

ya cuz you guys have the chance to live not too far from japan.

It's far but not as far as it is far here ! HAHAHA

ah i'm so nervous ! I hope my application for budai will be accepted.

[Tato]

Can't give you a figure for the spanish dojos, but at the one where I practice many of the dan grades had at some time went to Japan (last one has been there the last month). More or less 70% of the 2nd dan and up.

And we recive regular visits from japanese senseis (as this week, whe're having a crash curse with a 7 dan sensi, +16 h of kendo in a week! :eek: )

Rei

[nodachi]

An addition would be a study of how long people studied in Japan and how it correlates to their ability when compared to people who have never trained in Japan for similar lengths of time.

[Will]

Maybe because I'm from Northern California (compared to areas with "weaker" kendo, not trying to jock people's areas kendo though) but I wasn't too impressed by Japanese kendo when I saw it. We've been getting a lot of former high school students from Japan starting at our dojo lately (they're here to try to get into Cal) and I was expecting much more from their kendo. Most of them had done it since they were at least 12 and were nidan or sandan yet I'm sure most American nidans or sandans around their/my age could beat them. Their kendo wasn't that great and was mainly shiai kendo. This makes me think: what's the point of going to train in Japan if all you're getting is training in shiai keiko. My kendo, by lack of sheer experience, wasn't as clean as their's, however, when we played shiai keiko I would come up ahead of them (only practicing 3 years).

I'm sure in areas with much weaker Kendo (where the instructor might not even be 4dan), training in Japan might be more beneficial than training at their own dojo. Maybe training in a non-competitive Japanese dojo might also be more beneficial, but I'm not praising Japanese kendo.

It might just be high school kendo that isn't too great to study, and I'm sure in other areas of the world their kendo might seem to be incredible, but for me i wasn't too thrilled. I hear some people on the US team go to train in Japan, but the kendo they're studying is probably a lot different than the kendo everyone else is studying (seeing how its more like godan+ kendo) and to face the strongest opponents.

Well, that's my two cents about training in Japan. Can anyone agree or disagree with what I'm saying. Maybe someone who practiced with some high school students from Japan and at Japan some time from a "strong" region.

[kendokamax]

hmm maybe you should try police station?

[nodachi]

I think age has a lot to do with the quality of one's kendo. My club has elementary school children, jr. high, and adults.

I haven't been doing kendo for too long, but the students' kendo is extremely sloppy. They do get guidance from the sensei, but they are just awkward since they are young. From the taikai I have seen, the high school students are still kinda sloppy too. Some are unbelievable of course, but many are just sloppy.

The sensei are much harder and nit picky about technique on the adults. I think maybe it could be that they are trying to keep the children interested so they may not focus as much on fine detail so they don't discourage them while the adults get their technique and skills broken down so much that you gotta be dedicated and stay positive or you may just feel miserable.

Just a personal observation, but the adults I watch here are incredible, while the younger kendoka are not so sharpened.

[Confound]

Will,

Let's have a brief look at the sample you're talking about: You are talking about Japanese students who are coming to North America to study. Allow me to tell you a little something about those kids: they have been put through the juku mill until they couldn't stand. They are most likely the top achievers at their schools, which means the amount of time they spent on club activities was next to nil. This means that they are hardly the most representative individuals of their former kendou club.

Allow me to share the story of one of my students, actually, we'll call him Suguru, I'm sure those of you who know Japanese will understand the irony.

Suguru is a high achiever in school. When the class average for tests hovers around 50%, he usually makes 85% or 90%, a real feat in Japanese academics. He has been going to cram school since kindergarten. Three times during the week (and often during weekends), he grabs a bus almost directly after school, and takes a 45 minutes ride downtown to a drab building where he sits in what is essentially a glorified study hall for 4 hours before getting back on the bus and going home. When he gets home, he has homework to do, then he goes to bed.

Suguru will be doing this until he gets into university. Now, he likes English, but he doesn't want to study abroad. The students who want to study abroad generally have to pull their marks up severely. Considering the fact that a 60% or a 70% brings ooohs and aaaaahs of praise, "OOO! AMAZING! You're the top in the class!" from the teacher, these students have a long way to go before they can write the SAT in English, and make a good enough mark to gain entrance to a school in America.

The students to whom you refer didn't really have a chance to be serious about kendou during their school years. They were far more concerned with trying to pass in a school system that expects them to memorize by rote information that is almost entirely useless.

That said, if you'd like to come over here, i'd be pleased to introduce you to a few students of mine who have no academic ambitions, and spend a great deal of time in the dojo. I'm sure you'll get a good working over from them. Hell, one of them can make our sensei sweat on a good day.

The moral of the story is: Japanese kids don't live the same life that you do, and the ones you meet who have come to america are a select few who have clawed their way out of Japan, to make it to a country where they may have a better chance to succeed, and they'll certainly get a better non-budo education.

Of course, if you ask them about any of this, they'll just laugh and say, 'no no'. It's the 'nihon daiichi' talking. Take it from those who know and don't have social conditioning and nationalism gagging them.

c

[Matthew Lagden]

i may be opening myself up a bit here but...

a friend and i were discussing this recently and came to the conclusion that as far as UK based kendo goes (and the UK is quite a weak kendoing nation, with a shortage of higher grades in any case), above say nidan, i would think that you would have to train in japan to really raise your kendo to a serious level.

above nidan in the UK you are pretty damn rare, and might find it difficult to find many people (apart from sensei's) who would give you a serious workout and really push you.

certainly at nidan and above you are likely to be one of the best in your dojo (and a bit of a 'celebrity'), whereas i get the feeling that in japan you would be amongst loads and loads of people who were as good if not substantially better than you. kinda humbling i would think.

and a fair number of the more senior kendoka at our dojo have trained in japan for that very reason.

<ducks for cover>

[Confound]

I'm an advocate for going anywhere you can to train, be it Japan, down the road at a different dojo, or across your own country to see a different group of kendouka entirely. Even in Japan some of the upper level senseis have to get together for practices. In my region, there aren't enough roku dan and nana dan old men to go around. We have many younger ones of the same rank, but when the old men who studied in the post war years want to get together and do kendou their way, it's rather hard.

There really is a difference between the two approaches to kendou. So it isn't just ni-dans in the UK, it's a bit of a problem everywhere. The problem is the same, just at a different level. However, as time goes on, if people stick to kendou, the problem will decrease. You don't have to go to Japan to train, go to Korea, or Australia, or France. Anywhere is good. Japan is really expensive.

c

[tetsuoxb]

College kendo in Japan is extremely shiai based. I will be the first to admit that.... i practice with one such club. However, these kids also know the basics, and are sloppy because college kendo is very centered on the next shiai.

I think the view of kendo in japan as shiai kendo is somewhat correct, but here we have a shiai SEASON with a couple of shiai a month that there is a decent amount of pressure to do well in. You have sempai you dont want to let down, and a desire to do well and display your skill.

The point about the kids being grinded is very true. For example, Osaka Taiku Daigaku consistently does well in Kansai area Daigaku shiais. Why? 1) They recruit. 2) They are all viciously violent shaved head beasts......who resemble kendo machines more than humans. but that is besides the point.

kendo in japan is better on a whole, when comparing like ranks. for various reasons that i wish i had time to expound upon. but alas.. that is for another post

[Ares2907]

Very true that some daigaku kendo is very shiai oriented and everyone knows what you are saying when you describe someone's kendo as daigaku-poi, however I would still be so hesitant to lump all daigaku together. There are some universities (Nittaidai for example) where shiai is not the be all and end all of kendo and this is stressed to the students. Others are almost entirely shiai focused (like Budai - however I think that this is probably because their head sensei is a PL high school grad. people that know the place know the stories).
Anyway, point is there is large diversity in uni kendo, you can see that at any daigaku taikai.

[David J]

Originally posted by Confound
Japan is really expensive.


You should try London...:eek:

<rei>

Dave

[KhawMengLee]

I second that. 5 bloody pounds for a MacDonalds meal...thats like over 30ringgit and it can buy you 6 of the same meals here.

[David J]

Although why the hell you'd chose to eat at Mac's when you're in Malaysia defeats me....

[KhawMengLee]

true..true...mmm...I miss home food...well, in 3 weeks..heeheehee

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Will

I wasn't too impressed by Japanese kendo when I saw it. We've been getting a lot of former high school students from Japan starting at our dojo lately (they're here to try to get into Cal) and I was expecting much more from their kendo. Most of them had done it since they were at least 12 and were nidan or sandan yet.
...............

Yes. But even in Japan there is Kendo and "Kendo" There are the run of the mill Kendo clubs. Then there are Kendobu that turn out a respectable level.

Even with the Kendobu there are regular fight offs to see who makes the team and there are those that perhaps will never make it but nevertheless pay a relevant contribution to the club. We dont have to send out scouts because anyone who shows distiction at an early age is earmarked for a good Dojo.

In Japan everyone assumes that every foreigner they meet must speak perfect English. On top of that most of them wouldnt know what good English was if the heard it. perhaps the same assumption sometimes applies to westerners in relation to Japanese M.A.

The good ones are not on their way to Cali. They are going into a University as future Kendo teachers.

Hyaku

[Charlie]

Yeah, that's never been my experience - all the kendoka I've met have been sweet. Although, granted, most of them are grad students or professionals, so maybe they take things more seriously.

[tetsuoxb]

What I was going to expand upon is exactly what Hyaku said. The kendo here is a product of the senseis here, and dedication just like anywhere else.

However, because Kendo is inherently Japanese, the senseis and the dedication are in greater supply. Thus greater kendo.

I agree that the good Kendoka, the people with the ability to be the riotcop/pro kendoka hybrid that currently exists, or the future senseis, are not usually travelling abroad to study.

I think that it is because when kendo is such an important part of your life, you dont want to leave paradise (Japan).

[Confound]

AMEN, HYAKU. AMEN.

I feel compelled to defend my sempais, my senseis, my students... There are many not so hot kendouka around here, but there are just as many who will grind you into the ground in a shiai. There is a range of ability here as well you know. Hyaku is right about the serious students entering training to be kendou teachers.

Think about it, what incentive is there for a strong kendouka to leave Japan, except to go bash some heads at a tournament?

c

[Tato]

Curiosity? ;)

[munenmuso]

So those samurai tales are not exactly accurate...hmmmmm

[senki-kendo-jos]

I started in a high school dojo... painful training there!

[moocow65]

Those college kenshi are good, but it's funny how alot of them don't know kata. Well this is from my experience after going to the 50th All College Championships a couple years back. We all had a kata seminar, and some of the guys who were in the tournament could only do kata 1-3. I guess cause it's all about winning when you're in college. Just like highschool and collegiate sports in the US, the coach better make sure his team wins or he's fired. So I guess the coaches can only stress the competition aspect of kendo and not the "deep" stuff. I personally don't like the college kendo style. It's faster than anything, but it looks too dirty for me. And yeah, I see no point in practicing in Japan. Their style of kendo is different from ours, and it really isn't effective here, unless you're as fast and skilled as they are of course. But if you're just the average Joe trying to do Japan style kendo on me, I will mop the floor with you. Practice in your backyard. Works for me. Go to Japan to play, not practice kendo. Geez you'll have an extra check-in bag for all the crap you're gonna buy too. It's win-freaking-win.