Iaido in Wales

[Huw]

I'm a member of a busy karate club in north Wales. A few of us would like to start studying Iaido - but the nearest club is in Manchester (2.5 hours away). :( :(

Can anyone put me in touch with a Iaido practitioner in north Wales who might be willing to give us a few lessons ? :cool:

TIA

Huw

[rottunpunk]

the only person that im aware of lives in swansea-so thats no good

what school of iaido do you want to learn

(id reccomend Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu as it is the school most closely linked with myamoto, not that im bias of course-hehe

:p

[Huw]

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware of the different schools of Iaido - but thanks for the advice anyway. We're not in a position to be fussy - any teacher would be welcome !!! ;) ;)

Your right Swansea is further than Manchester but with a little patience I'm sure we'll someone closer to home !! :cool:

[Confound]

I would think that until you reach third dan or so, it really doesn't matter what 'school' of iai you study. Quite simply put, those 'schools' or iai are koryu, and they are SEPERATE from iaidou. Iai is a basic set of 12 forms that have been developed to illustrate the elementary elements of drawing and cutting with a sword.

Koryu are entirely seperate. Calling koryu 'schools of iai' is like calling iai a school of kendou. they're related, but not the same thing by a long shot. Initially, you will study the 12 basic forms of iai, not a koryu. Albeit, some senseis choose to introduce the particular customs of a koryu at an early stage (like the way the sageo are tied, or a slight variation on seiza used in the koryu the sensei has studied), however these are minor things, hardly the same as learning the koryu itself.

That said, allow me to return to the post's actual subject: Good luck in finding an iai teacher,Huw. Hopefully your study will be long and edifying.

c

ps - for more concise and informed information on the differences between Iai, battujutsu, koryu and kobudo, do visit Hyaku's website.

[roar]

I would think that until you reach third dan or so, it really doesn't matter what 'school' of iai you study.

If you study it, I guess it must matter

Quite simply put, those 'schools' or iai are koryu, and they are SEPERATE from iaidou.

so koryu is not iaido?

[Confound]

Koryu is not iai. Koryu are established, traditional schools of swordsmanship or sword drawing. The key word here is traditional, which means these techniques have been handed down within the school for quite some time. Iai on the other hand was assembled as a generic introduction to sword drawing. It serves as the 'entrance exam' for koryu, if you want to think of it that way. You do not study the techniques of a koryu until after fourth dan, according to one of my sensei (who should know, as he's a practicing sixth dan... soon to be seventh).

Iai is generic, whereas the koryu are specific.

As to your not so witty clippage about 'if you study it, I guess it must matter', please note the phrase that clarifies your selective piece of clippage:

" Albeit, some senseis choose to introduce the particular customs of a koryu at an early stage (like the way the sageo are tied, or a slight variation on seiza used in the koryu the sensei has studied), however these are minor things, hardly the same as learning the koryu itself. "

For those with short attention spans, who like to seize upon a sngle quotation and turn it into an uncontextualized, meaningless blip, allow me to simplify:

When you begin iai, your sensei may teach you some small things inadvertantly that are part of his or her koryu. These things include, but are not limited to, the tying and placement of the sageo, some variations on seiza (some koryu have a slight variation in the sitting position from which the fourth form begins, hardly enough to matter), or a particular preference for white uwagi over black or blue. These are hardly elements that will influence the beginning student dramatically. From personal experience, it is not very hard to change the way you tie your sageo and hakama himo. (i tie the hakama two different ways for iai and kendou, depending on the teacher I'm with at the time.)

(Hyaku, where are you? I expected you to jump in here. Don't fail me now.)

that's all i have to say about it.

c

[Hyaku]

The Muso Jikiden Eishinryu Group that represents Iwata Sensei in UK travel far and wide teaching Iaido. MJER has its own set of fundamentals called seiza nobu.

They have people in the Isle of Man, Jersey, Northern Ireland etc.

There was a teacher working not far from you but sadly he has just moved up to Scotland. I suggest you email Chidokan who posts on here. Perhaps you can come to some arrangement.

Hyaku

Êhttp://www.sword.shorturl.com

[Confound]

Thanks, Hyaku, but I was hoping for help with the iai is not koryu part...

c

[roar]

http://www.kendo.org.uk/clubs.shtml

here are some kendo and iaido-clubs in gb. If you contact one of the two kendoclubs in Wales, I am sure they can direct you to iaido-practise nearby.




Koryu is not iai. Koryu are established, traditional schools of swordsmanship or sword drawing. The key word here is traditional, which means these techniques have been handed down within the school for quite some time. Iai on the other hand was assembled as a generic introduction to sword drawing. It serves as the 'entrance exam' for koryu, if you want to think of it that way. You do not study the techniques of a koryu until after fourth dan, according to one of my sensei (who should know, as he's a practicing sixth dan... soon to be seventh).


The practise in a spesific dojo does not neccesarily apply to all iaido-practise.
It may be beneficial to do zenkenreniai for some time before entering a study of koryu, but different teachers have different approaches to stimulate their students progression. I
I think it would be strange if a student at sandan-level would not have other personal knowledge of koryu than knowing some details like tying his sageo or hakama-chords in different ways.

I think that a iaido-student that wants to learn both znkriai and a spesific koryu, like msr or mjer, should have an overview of at least the shoden-forms in the first couple of years, with an average weekly practise of 3-4 hours. As there is today an overemphasis in znkriai on tachiwasa, I think it is good to have all the suwariwasa from shoden to work with. But this is also just one spesific dojos didactic approach to iaido-practise.

[chidokan]

Hyaku,
you just reminded me of one of Neils students who trains in North Wales. (not sure of exact location, somewhere near nuclear power though!!) He's still training so should be able to help out. If there is enough people who want a 'taste' of iaido, i.e. at least two or three, I could pop down for a weekend I suppose. Just find me somewhere to put a sleeping bag down..its a bit of a trip from here so two days training would be worth doing.
Otherwise there are a few seminars run by various clubs you could get to over the next few months.
email me if you are interested.

Tim Hamilton

[chidokan]

OOH... just re-read roar's note and noticed I missed something! You dont study koryu until when!!!!
I find the combination of modern and traditional methods very confusing to students when they transfer from one to another. Not sure if its the way it is taught over in the West or what, but a lot of them ask me questions like "what angle should the cut be?" When I say its a natural angle, just make sure the cut is correct, you can see the confusion as they expect the answer in degrees!
I no longer teach zenkenren as I do not have the time to waste practising it, and just concentrate on koryu for the10 hours I have.
I have students who have only learnt MJER, and they do not suffer from not learning zenkenren, if anything they have a clearer understanding and do not mix up the two entirely different methods as I often see people who do both styles frequently do, especially at the early levels.
What IS interesting is when these students saw a modern style for the first time, and asked me why the students moved so unnaturally....

Tim Hamilton

[Confound]

Mr. Hamilton,

As much as I respect your opinion, since you are in fact a teacher of iaidou, I believe that it is important for students to learn zen nihon iai renmei kata before learning koryu. not only are the zen nihon iai renmei kata requiredfor exams, they teach some fundamental cuts, and they are designed for the teaching of basic cutting and technique. (That sentence was somewhat repetitive, but it's 6 16 am. Hardly time for great orations.)

The fact that your students are asking about angles is most likely a problem with the student, not zen nihon iai ren kata, or with you. In the course of my training I have never asked about angles, and my sensei has never mentionned them. Are your students blind, or are they not trying to imitate your movements? How unfortunate that you have unobservant students who would do their iai with protractors rather than with a sensei.

c

[chidokan]

This angles thing is not from my personal students but people who I have trained with in the U.K. in general. I have also observed some extremely weird grips being taught in order to get people to cut level/ flat at the end of the cut instead of allowing the sword to finish cutting naturally. One of my students has stopped seitei practise with a previous teacher because of this sort of thing.
I think the real problem is poor teaching, not poor students here, as nearly all the students I meet are genuinely interested in bettering themselves.
Also bear in mind there are other beginner systems, such as the one run by the ZNIR for gradings. One which may surprise you is that seiza no bu in MJER is also a beginners system....so why should anyone learn a system outside their main koryu?
While I was in Tokyo last year, I visited one of the local dojos, no sign of seitei iaido all night, even though there were lots of beginners there.
I think Hyaku might back me up on this, but there are a lot of places which dont bother with modern systems. One of the committee who 'invented' it regrets doing it! Cant remember the quote but I know Hyaku can!!! Dont think he bothers with it either, although I could be wrong...

[Kuri]

Originally posted by Confound
As much as I respect your opinion, since you are in fact a teacher of iaidou, I believe that it is important for students to learn zen nihon iai renmei kata before learning koryu. c
Excuse my ignorance, but could you clearly explain what the Zen Nihon Iai Renmei Kata are exactly. Having studied with a member organisation, I've encountered some standardised forms, but I'm not sure if you are refering to them or to Setei iai standardised forms.
Could you please clarify this point.
K

[Confound]

Uhm. How shall I do that?
I am referring to Zen Nihon Iai Renmei Seitei Iaidou kata, the twelve standard kata.

c

[Kuri]

Confound,
The Zen Nihon Iai Renmei and the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei are two entirely seperate bodies. Seitei iai forms (12 forms) come under the umbrella of the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei. If you ever get the chance, go to the Kyoto Taikai during golden week and watch hundreds of sensei trying for their 8th dan examination, under the authority of the ZNKR, not the ZNIR. There are some fundamental diferences in the approach of the two. As my sensei has told me, practioners from both federations do have a respect for each other, but rarely participate in training together.
Consult your sensei as to which federation they belong too.
K

[chidokan]

We are suffering from thread wandering... anyone else want to help out the club in Wales?

[Hyaku]

Im wandering cos it has me confused too.

1, There is ZNKR Kendo.. a Kendo Renmei that do Seitei Iai. In Japan its called the Zen-Ken-Ren.

2, The Zen-I-Ren.. Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei do fundamentals called Toho.

3, To add something to confuse all there is yet another renmei the Zenkoku Iaido Renmei.

In terms of Iai population its 2,1,3

I am in one and two.

I posted recently on Ebudo the fact that as I studied Seitei in the Japanese knock in the nail if it sticks out (God forbid we might show some character).
A MJER seventy year old Menkyo Kaiden would study in the corner of the same dojo treated as if he had leprosy.

Sadly thats the way it is sometimes. Pity people cant get on better together . So much for Budo Seishin. Perhaps thats why I have so much respect for cats

Hyaku

[chidokan]

Hyaku,
your puns get worse....btw, are you back in the UK for Xmas? The boss has got some wonderful tat for your other half to go on the mantlepiece...you'll especially like the Singing Santa...

Tim
p.s. send me money or we'll send the santa....

[mart2306]

I've only been doing Iaido for a few weeks, so forgive me if I don't know the answers that work.

One thing you maybe could try is contact some of the Sensei of the various clubs abvout the place and see if they know anyone, or if they are willing to help set something up.

Maybe there are people in the area who could teach, but just aren't on the internet and attend a club elsewhere. If so, the various Sensei will probably know about them in their own club.

[Alex]

Confound!

You're really full of it. Of course there is iai in koryu, they're not completely separate entities at all. It just has different names depending on the school. In Yagyu Shinkage-ryu for example, it is referred to as Batto. In the tradition I study (Hoki-ryu) it is called Iaijutsu, or Iai-kenjutsu...etc. etc.

What you are referring to is Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei Seitei Iai(do). This is only about 30 years old. Iai kata are found in many different koryu as part of the syllabus, and there are many koryu in which the iai kata are the only part of the tradition that remain.

As for not starting koryu iai until 4th dan...Well, you'll probably find out how wrong you are when you go to sit your (ZNKR) 2nd dan exam as you will have to do at least 1 koryu kata. Despite your incredible knowledge, I suppose you haven't made it that far yet. If you don't believe me, ring up the All Japan Kendo Federation...They should know, they made the system.

Anyway, I have asked Trevor Jones whether or not he knows of a club in Wales. Still waiting for a reply from him.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by chidokan
Hyaku

The boss has got some wonderful tat for your other half to go on the mantlepiece...you'll especially like the Singing Santa...

Tim
p.s. send me money or we'll send the santa....

Nooooo thats blackmail. Im already stuck with hearing the same Chrismas carol 30 times in an hour. By the way I still have that World soccer coin for your son.

Two weeks to go and l will be on the beach.

Regards Hyaku

[chidokan]

sure you'd rather not come home? Its absolutely tossing it down, about 3 below zero, and gale force winds... far better than getting a suntan and scuba diving...dont forget to send some good pix, especially the one with a close up of a great white's teeth:D

Tim Hamilton

p.s. I wonder if the original post ever reads this to see if anyones replied....

[rottunpunk]

i think they gave up when you started talking about singing santas dude

:p

[Confound]

I would rather stand corrected than sit a fool.

That said, allow me to clarify my position.

Firstly, one kata does not a study of koryu make. I amaware that koryu kata are required for sho-dan, ni-dan (etc) gradings; however, it is possible that a person could use kata froma different koryu at each examination. It is not necessary to continuously study the same koryu, nor would it be detrimental to one's progress to study a different one for each exam.

My point is that a student who is just beginning to study iai need not worry about koryu just yet. In the beginning, Seitei Iai kata are more important, as they make up the bulk of the grading. You will forgive me if I anticipate your objection that the previous comment seems to encourage a 'grading' focussed study of iai. I am not suggesting that one should train or study for the sole purpose of passing an exam; however, grading requirements do provide a very useful frame of reference.

Secondly, it has been said recently in this thread that Seitei Iai isn't all that important, and I have been accused of being ignorant of its origins. I don't speak from any great pedestal of knowledge, nor do I claim to be the Delphic oracle. It's rather sad when anyone who is well spoken is automatically branded as a 'know it all'.

I'm aware that Seitei Iai isn't very old, but I trust that my sensei wouldn't encourage me to learn something that is worthless. There must have been some good reason for the development of Seitei iai. Though defending the status quo isn't normally my thing, I humbly submit that there must be something worth studying in Seitei iai, or it wouldn't have been developed at all.

i'm going back to taking my pneumonia medicine.

grumpier than ever,
confound

[Alex]

So....what happens to people who start studying iai, and they don't belong to a group affiliated with the AJKF? They obviously wont be doing Seitei, so does that mean they are not going about their study of iai properly according to the profound logic of Confound?

What about all the older sensei now who trained in iai for decades before seitei was even invented?

Do you even know what Seitei is, where it came from and why??? Do you have any idea what koryu school each different technique in Seitei comes from?

Yes you are being accused of ignorance of the origins of Seitei, because obviously you are. You are not being branded as being a "know-it-all" because of your eloquence, but because you climb on that "pedestal of knowledge" you claim you don't claim to to be speaking from, and offer all manner of comment and opinions without any real basis whatsoever.

Also, I never insinuated that 1 kata = study of koryu. I said that for your 2 dan grading you will have to do one koryu kata. Which usually means you do one out of the many you have been taught.

How long have you been doing iaido? Maybe when you've been doing it intensivley for a few years, and have accumulated enough experience and real knowledge about what you are doing you will have a right to say what beginners should and shouldn't be worried about. People will take you more seriously then. Stand corrected and just accept it for a change.

By the way, I am looking forward to be standing corrected on the hiki-waza thread. Hurry up and scan the thing.:D

[roar]

quote
"It's rather sad when anyone who is well spoken is automatically branded as a 'know it all'.

We have a local saying, I do not know if it exist in english, the translation is as follows: "you have to listen to self-praise, because it comes from the heart".

[gogo]

Hello


I would like to learn Kendo in Swansea and I noticed one of your threads. Well i was just wondering if you had any additional information about Kendo classes in Swansea.




Thank youhttp://www.kendo-world.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif

[chidokan]

For kendo try the british kendo association website. For iaido, no clubs that I know of in the area but there are students scattered around.

Huw, one of our members lives in Porthmadog, and could pop over and see you if you are still interested. e-mail me for his address....