Importance of tournaments

[AlexM]

I was just wondering how many people participate in kendo tournaments and what they think of their importance.

I personally believe that participating in a maximum amount of tournaments is essential to learning good kendo. I believe this because practicing against the same group of people will most likely lead to a "specialised" kendo (one that works against those same opponents). Whereas tournaments force us to do "good" kendo (straight, and classic) as opposed to using "tricks" that work against your usual opponents (i.e. you have to fall back on your basics because you don't know the opponents too well). That's just my argument and it's open to debate. Tournaments aren't the only essential thing to learning kendo but they certainly count.

So in this sense "props" go out to the Halifax Kendo Club that seems to be present at every freaking tourney despite being an ungodly number of hours away.

What do you people think? (I'm assuming this subject hasn't appeared on the boards before).

[JSchmidt]

Shiai's are good in the sense that they put you in pressure situations, both with other people watching and the pressure of winning/losing.
I've learned an awful lot about myself from the competetions I've been in and despite not having come very far in any competetion, the only one I've been unhappy with, was the one where I didn't learn anything.

Jakob

[kendokamax]

Personaly I go to all tournament I can, so so far 11 tournaments in my 2 years of kendo. It's not only fun for the kendo but for having the chance to be going a bit everywhere in Canada.

I have been in so many situations, and lost in so many different way that it gave me a great deal of experiences. But now I started to win in the mudansha divison and started to learn less.

Cant wait to be in dan division...

[stinkyKote]

yes, I can't wait for you to be in the dan division either ... :D

[KenD'OH]

of course :D

kendo, like sports, its very valuable to gain experience from tournaments. having just watched my first kendo tournament last week, i can't wait to attend one myself :)

[AlexM]

Originally posted by stinkyKote
yes, I can't wait for you to be in the dan division either ... :D

Yup, couldn't have said it better myself.

[Confound]

Alex,

That's an interesting argument in favour of participating in tournaments, I've never thought of it that way. I am unable to participate in tournaments here, so I can't really say much about the subject. I've only been in one 'tournament', but it was an exhibition, so it doesn't count.

I agree with you about practicing with different people, but how does a tournament differ from travelling out to other budokans and practicing with people who are not your usual practice partners? By that argument, wouldn't it be more benficial to be constantly wandering around, fromonedojo to another, to perfect your technique? (A note to all those who are going to point out that samurai did this: That's my point, stop looking for places to scream your allegiance to Miyamoto. Personally, I believe Date Masamune could have taken Miyamoto anyday, and he only had one eye!)

I believe tournaments are a truncated version of travelling to other dojos. If you can do the latter, then you really don't need the former. I enjoy shiai, but there are many people who aren't as keen on it. There are as many things to care about in kendou as there are reasons for studying it.

That said, I am looking forward to being ground into the dust in tournaments when I get back home.

c

[nodachi]

I have yet to participate in a tournament myself yet, but I think it would be similar to sports like track and field or swimming... other examples apply, but my brain is not working.

In those sports you train and train, and then you have as little as 10 seconds or a few minutes to show the results of all that training. It adds a nice nervous/excited/whatever psychological element to things when you only have a few moments to prove yourself so it's do or die. I can see this connection in a Kendo tournament, while one may not feel it as much just traveling from dojo to dojo because there may not be that sense of urgency that the limited time to prove yourself makes you feel.

Maybe people have that feeling anytime they practice shiai, but I personally usually feel more pressure and have more psych issues at actual competitions and not practices.

[AlexM]

Confound,

I like your argument about the importance of travelling to other dojos in order to fight different opponents (I was thinking about making up another poll on this). You've got to fight different (and relatively unknown) people in order to bring out good kendo (that was pretty much my point). I know someone who is constantly travelling between dojos and he's one of the best fighters in the province (keep in mind I live in Quebec, not exactly known as a hot-bed of kendo). He has a very straight and classical style of kendo.

My argument for the importance of tournaments actually came out of a conversion I had with him, Max (yes that Max) and another student on our way back from a tourney last week. The best piece of advice when you fight in tournaments was simply "do good kendo". It's the only thing you can do really.

However, there is one thing that travelling to other dojos does not necessarily provide: a competitive atmosphere. I don't always get to do a shiai when I go to other dojos. Plus there's the intensity factor: a tournament offers an opportunity to test yourself against people who have also brought their "A-game". That's not always the case when you just visit. One last thing about tournaments: You have to overcome nervousness in order to do well (something I find difficult. . . managed to do it last week though). It's difficult to be relaxed in shiai, but tournaments offer the best opportunity to see if you can overcome a natural instinct to tense up.

Of course I did write that I consider tournaments to be "essential to learning" proper kendo (not just that tournaments improve one's kendo). I can only say that one's point of view might depend on the degree to which he or she considers kendo to be a sport or a martial art. I can't imagine practicing a sport only for the sake of practicing: I want to test myself, which can best be accomplished in tourneys. Plus, from my limited personal experience, dojos that rarely send people to tournaments (and those individuals that refuse to participate) have lousy kendo.

Why can't you participate in tournaments? A nationality thing? I almost feel sorry for you (I said ALMOST feel sorry).

Man, that's a long post. The worst part is I could probably go on. I'm sure someone's written about this (in Japanese obviously).

[munenmuso]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Confound


That's my point, stop looking for places to scream your allegiance to Miyamoto. Personally, I believe Date Masamune could have taken Miyamoto anyday, and he only had one eye!)

I believe tournaments are a truncated version of travelling to other dojos. If you can do the latter, then you really don't need the former. I enjoy shiai, but there are many people who aren't as keen on it. There are as many things to care about in kendou as there are reasons for studying it.

That said, I am looking forward to being ground into the dust in tournaments when I get back home.

c [/QUOTE

Confound,

Just curious, who is Date Masamune and what makes you say that he can beat Musashi anytime even with just one eye like Jubei Yagyu?

munenmuso

PS.
My barber is also one-eyed and he charges half the price compared to those with two- eyed barbers.He cut my left ear once:)

[Atama]

I think everyone should participate in shiai's as there is no doubt it will benefit you as a kendo player.....however I don't think all shiai's show a good example of 'good straight kendo'.

From what i've seen from some bouts (not all) there is a disregard for proper technique and the people who are winning merely place the shinai on the target and score the point rather than showing a full spirited cut.

I think its best to travel to other schools and fence as there isn't the whole win /loose thang going on so theres better chance to use good technique and to fight people also applying good kendo technique.

[kendokamax]

The thing with going to different dojo is that they dont always have the same percepective about what is a good or not good ippon. As atama says shiai is only about hiting the right area at the right moment, but if you do that kind of kendo against old man that take the shinai as a sword none of these hits would have been considered valid (I never been to such places, but my sensei was talking about it yesterday, kinda interesting).

Also I believe kendo is about sharing, so guys get out of your hole and play the most people you can!

[Ares2907]

As a sensei I respect very much once said, Shiai is a part of kendo, an important part of kendo. Shiai is not the most important part of kendo, nor is it even a large part of kendo. One can do kendo and understand shiai, but if one does only shiai, one will not understand kendo.

As for what constitutes a good cut, impact at the right time at the right place is a small component of the things needed for a successful cut. If that is all you are focused on, then you are doing yourself a great disservice.

Date Masamune was a staunch bloke who used to hang out with Ieyasu Tokugawa and his other generals. He lost his eye to a boyhood disease, wore the tsuba of a wakizashi as an eyepatch and was commonly referred to as the one-eyed dragon if popular legend is to be believed. He was indeed a bad mofo.

[Confound]

AlexM,

The competitive atmosphere is all in your mind. You can be just as competitive in jigeiko. No one is keeping score in jigeiko. If you need a score to make you feel competitive, or to make you do your best kendou, there's a problem. Don't feel sick for me, the concept makes me feel sick. It's revolting.

Munenmuso,

Date Masamune was a guy with bad luck. He had a bad bout of illness in his childhoodwhich left him blind in one eye. (I've forgotten the illness, which is uncharacteristic, normally I'm a fountain of Masamune trivia.) He was born at a bad time. Under his sword, almost all of Tohouku was subjugated. He would have gone on to challenge the Tokugawa, but those goofballs were ousted by the Meiji Revolution, as was Masamune, in short order.

He was a brilliant military leader, known as the one-eyed dragon, but his timing was bad. If he'd been born one hundred years earlier, he could have made a name for himself. As it stands, no one outside Tohouku knows who he is. He wasn't so bad with a sword either, I've heard.

Atama,

How sad that your experience with shiai has been so bad. Poor shimpaning, or low level players, maybe. There is more to a point than that timing. if the person who strikes has no zansshin...

kendokamax,

Kendou is about sharing? What are you, a Care Bear?

Ares,

I didn't see your post until I'd already written about Masamune. I guess someone else does know about him. Ah! I think it was scarlet fever in his youth that destroyed his eye. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he hung out with Tokugawa, because his ambition was to conquer all of Japan. That puts him at odds with the Tokugawa regime to say the least. However, at the time, there were more pressing concerns than a rogue general with one eye.

Incidentally, if you ever visit Tohouku, I'd be pleased to show you around the Masamune sights. I'm particularly fond of his temple in Matsushima. Nice location. It has a forest in front. I miss trees in Japan.

Returning to the salient point of the thread...

I agree wholeheartedly with what your sensei said about shiai. For those who wish to pursue sports kendou, then by all means, go ahead and do only shiai, but don't expect to win all the time.

c

[kendokamax]

ya sharing..

You cut my flesh , so I cut your bone.

[AlexM]

Confound,

I made a terrible mistake. I said I felt "SORRY for you" not "SICK for you" (what does that mean anyway?). I felt sorry because you seem to want to participate in tournaments but couldn't. I was. . . you know. . . sympathising with you. I sould have known that people rarely sympathise with you and simply not said anything. I know you're not used to it.

I don't usually treat jigeiko as competitive because that's when I try out different techniques I wouldn't normaly use in shiai because I'm not good enough with them yet (although that doesn't always stop me). And as much as the competitive attitude is all in my head (along with the three or four voices) it also has to be in my opponents' head. I want him or her to try their best as well and compete as well.

That being said, I love things like jikeiko and godo keiko. I think they should have more of those right after tournaments. Sparring with the guy you just lost to is a lot of fun.

I didn't say that winning was essential in tournaments (I hope that's not what people understood). I've lost most of the best matches I've played. As long as I'm satisfied with how I fought I'm perfectly happy losing (well not that happy). The score doesn't matter much unless you think you fought badly (in which case you can kick yourself for a few days...best way to learn). Do I like to win? Yes, absolutely. Is winning the be all and end all of my kendo? Nope (I hope not or I'd be really, really bad....really). I'm usually satisfied when I get ONE good hit that I'm satisfied with.

To me the final score doesn't matter as long as I felt my kendo was nice and that I performed well. I don't go to tournaments to win (much as I would like to), I go to learn. I learn so much in tournaments very quickly. The day I go ONLY to win will be the day I'll have to think about taking a break from kendo and reflect on why I practice (while writing haiku and sipping green tea on a mountain top). I don't crave victory as much as enjoy it when it comes along.

Once again, sorry about the sympathy thing. I promise never to symapthise with you under any circumstances.

[Confound]

You're right about the competitive idea being in both your mind and your opponents, but I firmly believe that with the right attitude, and a bit of skillful use of pressure on your opponent, you can make them more competitive too. Perhaps it depends on the atmosphere in your dojo and attitudes toward jigeiko and keiko.

c

[JSchmidt]

Confound, you are forgetting a rather significant aspect of competetions and that's the pressure. It comes from several aspects and will vary depending on the situation and personality, but it's not something you can simulate during ji-geiko. You aren't the focus of everyone in the hall/dojo, you don't have team mates cheering you on (and/or expecting a certain level of performance) and you don't have 3 guys in suits with small flags judging your cuts.
You would know if you had tried it :)

Daff

[etherknot]

Even though I have not yet been in a tournament I feel obligated to supply this knowledge:

Date Masamune apperantly lost vision in one of his eyes due to smallpox. So says at least three websites I have found.

I also only have one eye. Hmmm...

[mingshi]

The most special thing about Shiai is that:

YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE!!

You can call this the martial part of the sport. It's actually a much closer simulation of "Being a Samurai". You can't let someone cut you, and you have to cut people to survive. No matter how far you have to travel to the tournament venue, no matter how much time and money you spent on it... Once you lose you'll be left watching for the whole day. I guess most tournaments adopt a knockout system?

Maybe there will be a lot of people fighting in the first and second round. Maybe you are good enough to go through the finals too. But if eventually you became 2nd, are going to remember --not how many matches you won, but how did you lose on your last one... As I said, YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE! So it's important to learn from this Ippon (or 2). It'll make you think about that "if I did/didn't do a certain thing, I could have won", right?

Shiai is different from the Jikeiko Ippon, because sometimes you don't see a good/bad cut when you are fighting. Eg. Ki-Ken-Tai-chi

But it also raises other issues such as:-

1) The development of Shiai Kendo...
Because people don't want to lose that easy, they have invented ways to ensure they'll win all the points. Eg. Head-bobbing, sword-flicking, leg-hooking, and other related (mostly posture) problems.

2) The quality of referee...
Not complaining on this, but it does exert great influence on the study of that particular Kendo player. As I said, your focus of improvement will depend on what points you scored/lost. If you scored a bad point without knowing, you would ignore one of your bad habit. If you lose by a cut without knowing it's crap, you'll think that the crap cut is a good one...... Of course, if you know that bad Ippon, you'll just blame the quality of the referee... "Huh? They score this kind of cuts?"

Of course, meeting other people is a bonus. Sometimes you'll see different style of Kendo in different clubs. Learn the good ones. And maybe at the warm-up area you can go for free practice with people travelled from very very far away.

[John W]

I think one of the best fringe benefits of shiai is the social side- were all competitors, shimpan and perhaps spectators go out to eat and drink and be merry!

Sure winning is good and losing sucks but if there was no social side to this art! - well.... i'll let you think about that one!:p

[Confound]

Actually, Mr. Schmidt, though I am not able to participate in official tournaments, I have taken part in several competitions, as a guest. I know exactly how it feels to be the celebrity, only in my case, it was because I have funny hair and skin, and I'm not Japanese.

Frankly, I believe that it's all in your head. If you need thirty to fourty people piling their expectations and inferiority complexes on you, and you need cheering and screaming people, then you're welcome to it. Those things are not necessary for serious competition. Approach is everything.

c