fighting from hasso and other irregularities

[Confound]

Yesterday I was in Maruzen and ran across a Japanese book about fighting from hasso. I was surprised at first. I've heard about fighting from jodan, I've tried it (ineptlyof course), and I've sparred with skilled practictioners, but never from hasso.

After looking over the book to make sure I wasn't making a mistake in the kanji, it really was about doing kendou from hasso. Unfortunately, I'm illiterate in Japanese, so the book was incomprehensible, but the pictures were fascinating. It seemed like they were trying to argue that this was a common stance when live blades were used in real sword fighting, so they were advocating it in kendou.

Was it a common technique back in the days of real blades? One of my shameful confessions is that I watch NHK samurai dramas, and there is a good deal of attacking from hasso in those, but only by the weak underlings who easily get mowed down by the main character or villain. Then again, NHK isn't known for the accuracy of it's portrayal of swordsmanship in dramas...

Anyone know anything about fighting from hasso, or other unusual (non-nitou and non-jodan) styles?

c

[Hyaku]

Aaaagh wish you had not said that word. I was doing it until 9 p.m last night. I have to do it at a national demo next week and still feel rather inadequate to do it well.

I know mine applies to Kenjutsu but I can see that if you wanted to do it for kendo you would have to make major modifications.

Firstly its "very" high. The hasso position adopted by Genbudo is literally a position adopted before going into kamae.. The men wings would definately get in the way with the right wrist being higher than the ear. It has to be higher. If not the cut would be too shallow.

Secondly and most important is the cutting method. We never bring the hands up and above the head to cut through Jodan. Its a direct cut with the hands coming in front of the face. This is of course a momentary action and in no way blocks ones view as the hands are coming in from the side and down in a large instantaneous movement.

I used to practice Kendo with an Ito Sensei who did Itoryu. He had it off quite well mixing the two.

Good luck...

Hyaku

Êhttp://www.sword.shorturl.com

[JSchmidt]

One of the seniors who occasionally turns up, will do a hasso-like kamae, but he keeps his hands below the men-wings. Cutting is a bit like you describe it, except he often does it one-handed, using the thumb on the other hand to push out the shinai (ie like from Jodan). He always tends to use it against my jodan.

Jakob

[Matthew Lagden]

can you describe hasso please - i know what jodan looks like, but have never done it, but have never heard of hasso.

[Atama]

ok i'll try to describe hasso to the best of my ability........from chudan no kamae raise the sword and bring it over you right shoulder on a slight tilt backwards, the right hand should be raised roughly to the jaw.....I was always told that you should be able to bite your tsuba if you turn your head in hasso no kamae... probably wont help you much but you'll find hasso position in kata 4 of kendo no kata.

I've never acutally seen it used in kendo although i am curious, I know that it was used back in the day because of the huge helmets the samurai wore which prevented them from raising to jodan.

[Matthew Lagden]

wow.

i've been told about another kamae where the sword is held behind the body so that its length is hidden.

anyone seen that?

our sensei won't allow anything other than chudan, but i find the diferent kamai interesting.

[taiwnezboi]

"i've been told about another kamae where the sword is held behind the body so that its length is hidden."

I believe that is called wakigamae.

[Matthew Lagden]

thats the one. it sounds quite cool although i don't quite see how it would work.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden

thats the one. it sounds quite cool although i don't quite see how it would work.

Very well indeed. You can generate a 180 degree hip action into the cut

Hyaku

[Matthew Lagden]

is it just for cutting Do, or can you cut men?

how do you get the shinai from waist height to men height without taking all week and giving your opponent plenty of time to cut you and dance about laughing at you?

[Ian Russell]

Hasso and wakigamae are used in kendo data. In yonhonme, uchitachi adopts hasso and shitachi assumes wakigamae. Wakigamae (kneeling) is also seen in nanahonme.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Hyaku
Very well indeed. You can generate a 180 degree hip action into the cut

Yeah. Matthew, go and watch 7 Samurai again and you'd see a dueling of Jodan vs Waki.

Strangly that the ZNKR regulations state that, "Right Kote is considered as a valid target if a player is in Nito, or any Kamae other than Chudan." But NO ONE actually does any other Kamae (apart from Jodan)??

I guess it's a "Old school Kendo" thing again because any other Kamae relates to the "If this sword is real" theory. Eg. Waki is related to blade length, and targets. With a Naginata you can use Waki as often as you like.

Say Kata #6, you can threaten someone's Kote in Chudan by going Gedan. Now, no one teaches this with the Shinai. What a waste!

Depends on your Sensei and Senpai. I played with different Kamae for a while (with permission), but half of the Senpai just stop and say, "Chudan chudan!! What are you doing?"

"If you learn to use the five approaches of my strategy, you will be able to wield a sword well. You must train constantly."

Well, sorry Musashi, Kendo people don't train in this way anymore!

[Ares2907]

No one goes into gedan because it's impractical IMHO. There was a guy who used to do it at a dojo that I used to train at. I lost count of the number of people he tsuki'd in the balls. I took to doing an immediate katate tsuki whenever he tried it with me. Seemed to work. I'd much rather bruise his neck a bit than lose the jewels.

[Confound]

One of my sempais uses gedan. Originally he did it to tempt me into cutting men so he could hit kote. I got wise to the trick, and he's been sulking ever since.

on a more serious note, wakigamae seems to pose problems in terms of speed. In a men nuki dou situation I could see it coming off advantageously, but to strike men or kote (left not right), there would be a bit of a delay. Against a slow opponent, it might be possible to strike men, or if you're as speedy astetsuwan atom.

As for gedan, the only use I've found for it is to lure inan opponent and whap them senseless. It generally only works as a surprise tactic.

c

[Kendoka]

I once met a guy form Japan called Yamazaki (Sensei) apart from giving my wife a great kendo championship jacket, he often used hasso-no-kamae with great effect, particularly with debana type techniques. If you moved a cm, he'd cut your kote or men.

!

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Confound
One of my sempais uses gedan. Originally he did it to tempt me into cutting men so he could hit kote. I got wise to the trick, and he's been sulking ever since.


It's probably okay to use gedan against women. They can remove their jewellery before starting practise.
;)



[snip] As for gedan, the only use I've found for it is to lure inan opponent and whap them senseless. It generally only works as a surprise tactic.

c [/B]

Don't be surprised if you get a surprise-tsuki when doing it. Especially against daigaku kendo types.

[Confound]

Yes, i'm prepared for that, or at least prepared for the pain that comes afterwards.

My current focus is increasing speed. Frankly, my waza are rather tidy for a person of my level. I say that with great pride, as it has been one of the things I've spent hours working on in parking lots, under train bridges and in other desolate urban areas late at night. That said, I find the best way to get snappy reflexes is to practice debana or oji waza, or nuki or suriyage waza.

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Gedan works OK, so long as you don't go too low. Usually people use it in a kind of tricky way, lower the kensen and try to lure the opponent into cutting kote which looks like the most obvious target. If he comes kote, you come up and do suriagi men, because you're coming from low his shinai really goes flying. I haven't seen anybody routinely fight from gedan.

Hasso is often used as a transition to jodan. When playing jodan you need some distance to have time to get into kamae. If you don't have enough distance you can temporarily take hasso. The men cut from hasso is very fast and can easily displace the opponent's shinai on the way in. Unfortunately your left kote is wide open. Again, I haven't seen anybody use hasso as their normal kamae.

Waki-gamae just flat doesn't work with shinai. It's a real-sword kamae, used to hide your sword to disguise it's condition or length. It also provides a very powerful cut. But for shinai it's just too slow.

[lewis]

Some of you already know this, but I thought I'd mention it for those who are new. The exact positioning of Hasso, Waki, Jodan, Gedan, Mojiri and (to some extent) even Chudan vary depending on the school. Remember that in Kendo they were made uniform by the AJKF and are essentially a common middle ground of the various school's forms and stances.

Generally, from experience I agree with most people's assessment here that the other kamae are disadvantageous in kendo. The other kamae sacrifice speed and kendo has grown to be smaller and faster motions where, in my view, the best kamae (offensively and defensively) is the one that puts your shinai closest to your opponent. While timing is still the true measure of skill, in competition it is more and more timing within the framework of lightning men and kote strikes. Also, maia is not an issue in kendo because everybody has the same weapon. In that sense, the other kamae are much more real-world.

Having done Chanbara with exponents of other arts, the other kamae are much more effective/useful against untrained or non-kendo opponents, where maia and timing are more of an issue. Chudan gives the opponent something to focus on and sometimes they can capitalize on it, especially if they have a longer weapon than you do. I have found chudan to be a poor kamae against naginata - your wrists come into his range long before anything of his comes into yours. Waki and hasso I found effective because untrained opponents have a hard time gauging your effective range. And you also have a lot of time to pick your attack or back away as the distance closes. Your timing and observation become more of an issue. Someone mentioned waki is good for do, but it is also very effective for striking the ankle/ashi and left kote. Jodan is fun to use against untrained opponents as, if you adopt the correct spirit, you can make them fell like they are walking in under a suspended anvil and totally intimidate them. Also, if held in the Yagyu manner, they can't see how long it is and again have trouble determining maia.

[Confound]

Last night one of my sempais pulled jodan on me. In response, I fought from hasso. Not only did it surprise him, it was rather effective. Taking a high stance to counter a high stance makes sense, if you think about it.

It was very easy to strike his kote from hasso. He also had a harder time reaching dou, though as was stated previously, my kote was rather open.

I liked hasso, and I consider it a work in progress. next week, we'll see how it stacks up again.

c

[David J]

I am confused about one thing here - I have been told on more than one occasion that you ARE a Jodan fighter or whatever ie you start in a kamae and stick to it - is this true? Or, as seems to be suggested, can you move seamlessly between kamae as the situation dictates? (which also sounds like a lot more fun)

<rei>

Dave

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
Last night one of my sempais pulled jodan on me. In response, I fought from hasso.
Did he pound you into submission? Perhaps he held back because you're female. Taking jodan against a senior is something you do only when you've got a few years experience. Also, you should ask permission first. Taking hasso is even worse, it's an extremely arrogant position to take. Trying tsuki is the same thing - if you try tsuki on a senior without permission, be prepared to get it back very hard. Doing any of these things announces to your senior "I don't want your teaching kendo any more, give me your best kendo". Which means if your sempai is a nice guy, you get hit a lot and if he's not nice you get pounded a lot.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by David J
I am confused about one thing here - I have been told on more than one occasion that you ARE a Jodan fighter or whatever ie you start in a kamae and stick to it - is this true? Or, as seems to be suggested, can you move seamlessly between kamae as the situation dictates? (which also sounds like a lot more fun)

If you're serious about jodan you have to do it all the time, do all your suburi one-handed, katate-kiri-kaeshi, the whole nine yards. However you still need chudan because if its close maai you can't really use jodan. I dabble in jodan and I'd say in any given match I'll need to spend 10% of my time in chudan during transitional phases. There's also a little bit of hasso in there as a transition from chudan to jodan if maai is close.

[JSchmidt]

"He also had a harder time reaching dou"

If he was going for do, whilst in jodan, it sounds like he was playing around.

" dabble in jodan and I'd say in any given match I'll need to spend 10% of my time in chudan during transitional phases."

I do it a little more than a dabble and I now find that the transition comes easy; Bow, apologize and very quickly go for the men, to establish pressure and distance. Having said that, having done katate-kiri-kaeshi first seems to help.
I never use hasso, even in transition. If you need to, you have misread the distance, IMO. It only takes a split second to go from chudan to jodan.

Jakob

[stinkyKote]

Sometimes one of my sensei or sempai will do a kamae that I've never heard a name for, what they do is they put the shinai horizontally across the forehead to protect men, (this is done one-handed with the left hand) while the right arm covers their do. Very intersting technique, and pretty effective against a bottom-feeder like me ...

the best way I can think to describe it is like always being halfway through a kaeshi waza so that you can block an attack and swing around your opponents shinai ...

another one I've seen is similar to the one just described and also kinda like hidari jodan -- but the shinai is held with one hand and the other hand protects do ... meanwhile the tsuka is angled in line with the koteso that it protects it from being struck ...

anyone ever seen these before? I wonder if they have a name..:confused:

[JSchmidt]

They're not 'real' kamaes, more a block than anything.

Jakob

[mingshi]

Mr. Gendzwill:
>>>Trying tsuki is the same thing - if you try tsuki on a senior without permission, be prepared to get it back very hard.

Hmm... That depends. I always practice tsuki on every Jikeiko, because there isn't any Tsuki-uchi exercise! I want to get one back! But why is that "I don't want your teaching kendo any more, give me your best kendo"? Isn't Tsuki just one out of four of the regular targets?

StinkyKote:
>>>but the shinai is held with one hand and the other hand protects do ...

That's very typical Shiai Kendo, and not a Kamae at all. How do you suppose you can "protect your body" with one hand against a sword?

------------
Speaking of fighting against Jodan... Someone said because it is an offensive Kamae so you can do whatever you like to offense them back...? Say, going for Jodan and any other Kamae, just for the sake of "counter-offensive"?

[JSchmidt]

""Someone said because it is an offensive Kamae so you can do whatever you like to offense them back...? "

I think someone misunderstood 'offensive'. It's an offensive kamae in the sense that all you got is attack, not offensive as an insult.
Having said that, it is considered somewhat impolite to take jodan against a senior, if it isnt stronger than your chudan.
(Which is one of the reasons why you bow and apologize when you change).

As for tsuki, you are effectivly telling people that your center is *alot* stronger than theirs. So yes, in that sense, when your center isn't stronger, it is impolite to attempt tsuki.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by mingshi
Isn't Tsuki just one out of four of the regular targets?
Nope. Tsuki is much more dangerous than the other three. That's why it's not allowed in kids' tournaments. Attempting tsuki against a senior person is frowned upon: you have to ask permission or have an understanding that it is OK for you.

As for there being no tsuki-uchi, I've never heard that term but certainly you can practice tsuki with a partner. That's the safe responsible way to learn it, not trying it in jigeiko where there are a lot of variables.

[AlexM]

Interesting. I actually prefer to practice tsuki in jikeiko (it's my understanding that's what jikeiko is for) rather than in kihon. When I do it in kihon it usually hits on target but I go "in" too hard because I'm only concentrating on getting the mechanics of the hit and not worried about anything else like a counterattack (this is true for all my hits in kihon). In kihon when I miss hit hit next to the target (i.e. I go through into the shoulder, colar bone, etc. . . . much pain). However, when I miss in jikeiko I'm too far away and don't even reach the target (i.e. no harm done. . .except to me because I'm wide open). In jikeiko my opponent has the option of avoiding the hit entierly or blocking (no need to receive). Besides, if I want my tsuki to get better and be controled better shouldn't I practice it? It ain't gonna improve by me not doing it.

My sensei is OK with me doing tsuki (I think he encourages it). I don't think I'd have a problem with someone of lesser rank/experience trying tsuki on me. It might be different if the rest of my kendo was very, very, very bad and I still tried tsuki but as it stands, despite the danger, it's still a valid hit.

All this probably depends on who you're fighting. Some people like their kendo in chudan without tsuki others don't mind different stuff.

Is it just me or do your seniors get easily insulted? Do they get insulted when you fight back or do they require immediate submition of the opponent because resisting is obviously futile given their superiority? Alright that was a bit low (and an obvious exageration with no harm intended). I apologize, but do you see my point?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlexM
Is it just me or do your seniors get easily insulted? Do they get insulted when you fight back or do they require immediate submition of the opponent because resisting is obviously futile given their superiority? Alright that was a bit low (and an obvious exageration with no harm intended). I apologize, but do you see my point?
I'm not sure I see your point. Our club is pretty loose about this sort of thing, my advice was more general. Of course we don't demand immediate submission of the opponent. I want the students to fight their best and try their hardest to get a good point. If they become dangerous, like trying a lot of tsuki they aren't ready for or hitting gyaku-do off-target or whatever, then I have to stop and tell them not to do that. Other people might not be so nice about it and the information that you're being a bone head may get transmitted physically. Ever been repeatedly tsuki-ed into a wall? I've seen it happen...

[alexpollijr]

It's an etiquette point to ask before keiko if tsuki is OK. Usually this is only for people below 3rd dan. You can't take tsuku lightly because misses are very dangerous. A missed kote or do leaves a bruise, but a misse tsuki can do much worse.

It isn't really written anywhere and if your sensei doesn't mind then nevermind. My japanese sensei said that it's a good idea to agree on tsuki/not tsuki prior to the bout just to avoid the infamous tsuki fest.

As for taking 'any' kamae against jodan, you can take any 'kamae' you want, but it won't be kendo anymore, and I doubt judges would give it a point if you struck someone from hasso.

[AlexM]

I was parodying a post where someone wrote that it was impolite to try tsuki because it implied that your center was alot stronger than your opponents. By that logic you shouldn't attempt anything against a superior opponent because you're assuming you're faster, have a better center, etc. than he does. I don't think that's what the poster meant but I decided to take it to an extreme for the hell of it. I was bored, so sue me.

It was also sort of a way of saying I don't like seniors with over-inflated egos that think all those below them should stick to a straight-jacket of basics and God forbid they try something else (like taking jodan as a regular kamae before achieving sandan). This is confined to a minority I think.

alexpollijr. is probably right when he says that you should make clear with opponents (especially from outside the dojo) whether they want to use tsuki or not (to avoid misunderstandings).

I have never been tsuki-ed into a wall. But I have had my jaw partially dislocated, my colar-bone bruised, my throat scratched, a very minor concusion etc. from tsuki. All in kihon, never in jikeiko (where it's usually blocked and then countered).

[Confound]

Neil,
Please read that again, 'My sempai pulled jodan on me'. You will not that the verb is 'pulled', the person doing the verb is my sempai, not me. Do you know how to read? My sempai was not offended at all by my use of hasso, he thought it was rather smart, actually. He made a compliment about it.

I take my beatings whether they are deserved or not, but I haven't really been beaten for quite some time. The stern, majime sempai who use to drum me senseless has come to realize that women can be just as serious as him. He's far more normal now.

Mr. Schmidt,

You can strike dou quite well from jodan if you've just blocked your opponent's strike. Bear in mind that we were in jigeiko, not just standing rigidly striking at eachother. Dou is more than possible, especially considering the speed of the party concerned, that party being my sempai, for those who cannot seem to read on this forum.

Stinkykote,

That particular "kamae" (I use that word as loosely as possible) is usually used after striking dou, and turning around to face the opponent. It's considered pretty bad form where I come from, though in terms of panache and style, when executed well, it has both aplenty. Quite dashing looking, but ultimately, considered wussy. Maybe opinions differ in other places.

It's another transitional pose, not a kamae. If you think your opponent is bearing down on you about to strike, it protects your men and your dou at the same time, while making right kote really hard to hit. Though, a little considered fact, it makes your left kote a target, since you're no longer in chudan.

Mingshi, I agree with your comments about tsuki. It is a striking point like any other, however, it should used cautiously. It is a dangerous striking point. I don't use it. I don't trust my aim just yet.

Returning to Mr. Schmidt, I have yet to see any Japanese person bow and apologize when they assume jodan. I wouldn't expect my seniors to apologize to me, that would be ridiculous. However, I've seen them assume jodan around senseis and their own sempais. No one thinks it's rude. It's part of practice. It's part of kendou.

If you want to experiment, the best place to do it is around your seniors and your senseis, because they can help you. If you want to try fighting from jodan, do it. You can't get experience by mincing around all the time and apologizing.

Frankly, I have yet to see a single kendouka above the age of twelve apologize for anything while in bogu. If you really need to make an apology for something, do it once bogu is off. That way there is no potential for combat, you're making your apology in a way that doesn't even remotely insinuate that you want to engage the person in keiko. It's non-combative.

Alex, whose sempai? Mr. Schmidt's apparent neurotic ones, or those of someone else?


c

[AlexM]

Confound,

A buddy of mine got hell (a bit of hell) for taking jodan as his regular kamae, despite the fact that he's shodan, while he was on the West Coast for the Nationals (unwriten rule says that you should wait a looooooong time to try jodan, nito, etc.). I think he got hell from some senseis (not verbally, sort of a "you shouldn't be doing this" feeling. . . although I don't know all the details). Totally ridiculous in my opinion. He's now in Germany and he's also gotten hell from a sensei (whom he says no one likes anyway) for doing jodan. So yes, this does happen.

[kendokamax]

confound

what JSchmidt is saying is true. Normaly if you face a sensei that you dont know and that he doesnt know that you do jodan and take that kamae, normaly people are supose to appologize.

I really dont understand why, but it seems to be a very japanese thing to do, since when I went to one very japanese traditional style of kendo club in vancouver, they said that to one of my friend who was doing jodan.

Still I find it a bit weird to apologize for that....anyway thats the way things are for some people. Here we could care less..

Hm also for tsuki....if you are fighting a jodan fighter and he doesnt allow you to go for tsuki....it is quite unfair.. I mean it is sooo open.. everyone knows why they made mune-tsuki an invalid point , because it was too strong vs jodan players. (am I actually right about that?)


AlexM
over-inflated egos ? c'est qui la tete enflee....:p

[Gorget-the-Frog]

Originally posted by Confound
Neil,
Please read that again, 'My sempai pulled jodan on me'. You will not that the verb is 'pulled', the person doing the verb is my sempai, not me. Do you know how to read?

Quite a rude response, and ironic in that you flagrantly misread and misjudged his reply. At no point did Neil claim you "pulled Jodan" or otherwise. He merely placed the use of hasso into a context, demonstrating what he feels is questionable behavior.

Framing an idea is a very common in debate, in fact without doing so your opinions are only so much fluff.

I'm sure you can read Confound, but take the extra second to understand before flaming.

[Keith Hong]

Regarding the view on jodan and such, maybe it's a cultural thing...
In Korean(and I'd assume Japanese) culture, certain attitudes are expected of you in accordance with your relative position.
As a junior person in any group, you have to be humble and apologetic about everything.
Let me give you some examples.
Say a graduate student is having dinner with a professor. The professor pours the student some beer, or whatever. The student should hold the mug with both hands. If there's a toast and you bump mugs with the professor, your mug should be held lower than his at impact. Finally, when you drink it, you should turn away while gulping it down. Drinking face to face with a senior person can be seen as uppity.
Smoking. Regardless of the senior person's attitude toward smoking. You can't light up in front of him(or her). Leave the room and smoke outside.
Another example even I find quaint. A lot of older Koreans take off their glasses when speaking to people older than themselves. To avoid seeming arrogant.
Not saying it's right or wrong. Just that different cultures demand diferent views.:cool:

[Ares2907]

Kendokamax - if someone is going to take Jodan against someone, they have to expect tsuki no matter who they are up against. I honestly feel that if you take jodan against a rank beginner you are
a) practising waza
b) probably very stupid
c) telling the student that you feel they are ready to try tsuki, given that you are effectively removing normal opportunities for men and kote
d) see b

If someone takes jodan against you, afaic, tsuki is on no matter who you are (imnsho)

[ben]

As a sempai I'd have to say I generally admire kohai who are willing to provoke me and risk a beating. I also know it's surest way to get the respect of any Japanese sensei. Even though they might act angry, it's not the same kind of anger as if you had just worn your toilet slippers into the dojo (it happens).

Re- asking permission: I was taught to say "gobureishimasu" when taking jodan against any sempai. Like Keith said, it's just good manners in any Confucian hierarchy. Besides, it's nice to be nice. ^_^ (Incidentally I noticed in the All Japans a couple of years back, Sato Mitsunobu bowing ever so slightly before breaking from tsubazeriai to issokuittonomaai. Even at that level, he found himself compelled to 'ask permission' of his older and higher-graded competitors. I think this is partly why he's so popular: he's deferential and THEN he whips their arses).

And Neil, if you're going to link gender and kendo (e.g. "He must have let you off lightly because you're a lady") to Confound (or any KWF chick for that matter)...
...light the blue touch-paper and RUN!
>_<

b

[JSchmidt]

Now I know why you can't function in Japan (Or here for that matter)...no sense of politeness at all.

Jakob

[AlexM]

[i]
Posted by Ben,

(Incidentally I noticed in the All Japans a couple of years back, Sato Mitsunobu bowing ever so slightly before breaking from tsubazeriai to issokuittonomaai. Even at that level, he found himself compelled to 'ask permission' of his older and higher-graded competitors. I think this is partly why he's so popular: he's deferential and THEN he whips their arses).

b [/B]

I might be wrong about this but I think a lot of Japanese fighters do this (bowing their heads a bit when breaking tsubazeriai) regardless of rank. I've seen it done by more than one person and fencers other than Sato. Mutual understanding thing. That's why they're (the Japanese) are apparently prone to get caught on "mid-level" (between tsubazeriai and issokuittonomaai) when an adversary jumps from that distance. My sensei said something about the Koreans being good at these "mid-level" attacks.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
Neil,
Please read that again, blah blah blah fishcakes
Not sure why I'm bothering but... hasso is an arrogant posture. It is more arrogant than jodan. Taking it against a senior says "I'm so confidant in my kendo against you that I don't need to use a more defensive kamae like chudan". Even if your senior has taken jodan, taking hasso against it could be interpreted badly. If your seniors don't mind, bully for you. But in the wider world of kendo, such things can result in a very hard practice session, or more subtly just a decision on the part of the senior that this person isn't worth teaching. So I thought to offer my advice to those lurkers that politeness and caution are good things if you want to try the various kamae and waza we've been discussing here.

[AlexM]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

Taking it against a senior says "I'm so confidant in my kendo against you that I don't need to use a more defensive kamae like chudan".



Couldn't taking hasso against a senior also be interpreted as "My kendo is so lousy compared to yours that I'll try something different for want of a better strategy." :D

This just goes back to some seniors having rather high opinions of themselves (of course so do some juniors :rolleyes: ). Still can't get over the "different kamae is insulting" attitude. Is this kendo or cricket?

[kendokamax]

Kamae this kamae that.

If it is insulting for the senior....there is only one way that he can show that the junior is wrong and should stick to basic chudan. Beat the hell out of him, if he cant do that then what's up with doing something a bit more different?

But that is a North American way of thinking, as Keith Hong says if i'm in japan or korea I should be carefull about these things.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlexM


Couldn't taking hasso against a senior also be interpreted as "My kendo is so lousy compared to yours that I'll try something different for want of a better strategy." :D
Uhm, the response to that is "fix your chudan". Your goal in playing the senior isn't to beat him, it's to improve your own kendo. If it's just a hackfest, he isn't teaching and you aren't learning.

This just goes back to some seniors having rather high opinions of themselves (of course so do some juniors :rolleyes: ). Still can't get over the "different kamae is insulting" attitude. Is this kendo or cricket?
It's a cultural thing. Kendo is not sport, it's budo. It has super-strong ties to Japanese culture and attitudes. It's not about a seniors opinion of themselves, it's about your place in relation to theirs but that's only part of it - it's also about the best way to develop your kendo.

Whether you find these attitudes right or wrong, the fact is that they simply are there. If you want to learn, then you have to have people who want to teach you. If you aren't respectful, then certain people won't teach you. If your club has looser attitudes, that's fine - just be careful when you have visitors or when you are visiting others.

[alexpollijr]

Well,

In fact I agree with Neil when he says that instead of trying some weird stuff one should try to notice the bad points in their chudan kamae and try to work on them. One has to learn the rules before breaking them, or so it's said.

However, about the 'insulting' issue, many japanese sensei who have travelled the world teaching kendo have dropped some of these most radical postures. Of course, outrageous attiudes like sitting loosely in the middle of practice are still frowned upon, but trying jodan no kamae or nito no kamae aren't any longer. Of course it's a little weird when some mudansha comes up with two swords because the rule of thumb is that chudan is 'easier' than jodan and nito. You have the two hands of the hilt, the sword is keeping the opponent at bay (at least for a little while) and covering most vulnerable areas. Jodan requires a sense of maai that has to be developed over the foundations laid by the chudan maai learning process. It also requires a steady left hand/wrist/forearm that has to be developed for a while. Nito requires incredible coordination of the two arms as one entity, or you'll see a mess of bamboo everywhere. It also requires strenght of wrist/arm.

So, I don't think many japanese sensei now 'look down' on people who want to do jodan or nito. Mine certainly does not, and he's an ex-police officer in his fifties. But going weird with things never said or never taught like hasso or waki is bound to receive a stern reprimand, or so I believe. Not going to try it anyway :)

[James]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

... "fix your chudan". Your goal in playing the senior isn't to beat him, it's to improve your own kendo.

... ah a glimmer of understanding. thanks Neil.
As far as etiquette goes, I think most of it can be gleaned from just being observant about what is going on around you where you are (and a lot of people aren't). This goes for general etiquette not just kendo.You rarely need inscrutable reigo secrets, just act how everyone around you is. It amazes me when someone walks into a dojo and leans against a wall when they have just watched 40 people one by one get into a straight line, even if it is their first time in a dojo, haven't they got eyes in their heads?

I wouldn't take jodan against a sensei that I didn't know, in a dojo where no-one was playing jodan, unless maybe I was a commited specialist in jodan, and practicing it all the time. As Neil says, these attitudes are simply there, and it's not like I couldn't use some work on my Chudan?

However if a sensei takes jodan against me, I would have no compunction about doing tsuki, in fact it would probably be the first thing I would try, as long as I was confident about my tsuki being a reasonable attempt.
Tsuki is an appropriate response to jodan, and jodan players know this, and don't mind practicing against it.

One thing I have heard talk against is people switching kamae in the middle of a shiai. I am not talking of transitions to chudan during fighting, I am talking about starting off chudan, and then going into jodan about halfway through the match (which I saw recently).

If I visited a relaxed dojo and people started messing around in hasso as if they do this stuff every week, then I would accept that is the practice, and try my best against it, although I might possibly consider it a bit of a waste of time.

Still can't get over the "different kamae is insulting" attitude. Is this kendo or cricket?

Well it's kendo, not ice-hockey.

james

[JSchmidt]

"I am talking about starting off chudan, and then going into jodan about halfway through the match (which I saw recently)."

Well, it depends:). In that fight, he had lost a point to the other jodan guy and decided that in this case, his own jodan would be a better tactic than chudan (which it was).
OTOH, if you score a point from say, chudan and then change to jodan, it's frowned upon, as your are literaly saying that "now that I have beaten you in chudan, I will do the same in jodan".
(ie, a long the lines of "I'm actually right handed").
I was told that my first 'enemy' is my own chudan. Once my jodan is better than my chudan, I can/should use it in competetions.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by James
Snip a bunch of good comments - we mostly agree.

However if a sensei takes jodan against me, I would have no compunction about doing tsuki, in fact it would probably be the first thing I would try, as long as I was confident about my tsuki being a reasonable attempt.
I agree that if someone takes jodan, he is inviting tsuki. In fact when you first practice jodan you will take a lot of them. There's a special Japanese phrase for the necklace of bruises you will acquire. Anyhoo, you can try it but if your tsuki is bad and you repeatedly miss then maybe you should rethink - even though they have more or less invited tsuki its still bad form to keep hacking away with a technique that clearly needs more practice. Attacking his left kote is a better percentage shot anyways.

[kendokamax]

eh intersting thread

One tournament I went to before: one of my friend who was playing jodan against some beginners in team matches. The other started to take jodan too, it was not very good to see. My friend found it a bit insulting to jodan (entitiy of all jodan in the kendo world) lol he was so mad.

hey dont you think that jodan and nito- people are a bit weird?


"Well it's kendo, not ice-hockey."

lol
funny you said that to someone who is from montreal, you know?

[mingshi]

If they become dangerous, like trying a lot of tsuki they aren't ready for or hitting gyaku-do off-target or whatever, then I have to stop and tell them not to do that. [/QUOTE]
What the....? Not even Gyaku-do? It's dangerous too? That's my favourite target so far!! It's a completely valid target but now NOBODY hit it (apart from my Sensei) which make it like a "Sune-ate"-- I get it many times out of my opponents' surprise. So is Tsuki.

Ever been repeatedly tsuki-ed into a wall? I've seen it happen...
Yes. You've only seen it happen? I have that so many times that I've lost count already.

As for taking 'any' kamae against jodan, you can take any 'kamae' you want, but it won't be kendo anymore, and I doubt judges would give it a point if you struck someone from hasso.
1) Taking any Kamae "won't be Kendo anymore"? So what is Kendo Kata all about?
2) Don't focus on Shiai too much. Judges give point to bad-posture-shiai-kendo, so why not Hasso? And there are official regualtions saying that, "If your opponent takes any Kamae rather than Chudan, you can strike their left Kote". Other Kamae are officially permitted.
-------------------

Okay. About my logic this time:-

1) I will do my straight-est Kendo against a Kohei. Because They are learning from me, and I'll cut them with the best I can. I won't do tsuki on anyone junior than myself. So most of the time, against a beginner it'll be Ai-Men all the way.

2) I will do whatever I want to learn on a Senpai/Sensei. At the moment I'm doing a lot of Harai and Suriage-waza on them because I want to improve that. A lot of Do on both sides, Tsuki, Gedan (Have enough Hasso experiment already). I have to try these on THEM because they are my senior and they would be able to teach me how to improve them. If I try them on juniors they'll end up learning bad techniques. I do because I'm not confident in using these techniques, so that they can teach me. Not "I'm so confident in my kendo against you ...".

3) Hmm... I fight against a senior to improve my Kendo. That's why I go and stand in front of him, and practice cuts on him. Would you say that is "trying to beat you"? Or should I stand there just let him hit me, "trying not to beat them"??

4) "If someone takes jodan, he is inviting tsuki"
So if I want to learn Tsuki, should I go Jodan sometimes?

Note: I'm humbling asking, so please don't misinterpret these.

[AlexM]

She likes tsuki, she likes gyaku-do, she tries different kamae. . . I think I'm in love :eek: . Different dojos, different attitudes I guess. I personally think varied kamae can be amusing (and it's still good kendo) although I usually stick to chudan because it's still the most interesting kamae (so many things to do). However, alexpollijr may be right about judges not giving points when you hit from hasso (but that's a whole other subject concerning what people think of the quality of shinpan).

I think the person FIGHTING the jodan learns tsuki. If you "employ" jodan you'll learn how to receive tsuki but not dish it out (I think).

For the record, I have never taken jodan or hasso no kamae in hockey. GO HABS GO.

[James]

Originally posted by kendokamax
e

"Well it's kendo, not ice-hockey."

lol
funny you said that to someone who is from montreal, you know?
It was intentional - of course he's right, cricket has (or had) a lot of it's own er.. etiquette (stopping play for tea - perfectly good idea btw).


Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

...Anyhoo, you can try it but if your tsuki is bad and you repeatedly miss then maybe you should rethink - even though they have more or less invited tsuki its still bad form to keep hacking away with a technique that clearly needs more practice. Attacking his left kote is a better percentage shot anyways.

I agree, I did say I would use tsuki only if I thought I had a chance of a reasonable attempt. I think repeatedly 'hacking away' with any technique is bad, it just sets up a pattern for aite to destroy. Also I consider tsuki, as something of a surprise attack, and I doubt I would ever use it more than once in a shiai. (er but I guess they should all be surprise attacks).

Jakob-
yeah I agree that guy was good with Jodan, but I have heard that changing like that is not good, because if he is a chudan player he should be able to use his chudan; whereas it seemed like, he's not getting anywhere with his chudan so he'll try jodan. From a couple of people I have heard this, ie if you are going to specialise in jodan, do that. I have no qualms about the match, I thought it was exciting, just relaying an etiquette point, but I stand to be corrected.

AlexM
For the record, I have never taken jodan or hasso no kamae in hockey.

But if you did you would probably get away with it, with the hockey referees I've seen anyway.
:bandit:
jd

[taiwnezboi]

Confound: just wondering.. why're you so mean and rude to everyone all of the time? you're training in Japan.. I thought that training there would teach someone discipline and respect for others.. but I guess not..

[munenmuso]

I used jodan with my sensei once when he was beating me to a pulp. I had no choice but to employ a technic unusual in the norms of our practice, since jodan kamae is not usually used around here. I can't seem to penetrate his defensive stategies and it seems futile for me to attack even at my best. My attempts went to no avail for he was my 7th dan Japanese sensei. Then it came to me as my last effort ditch , I assumed the jodan stance and released my shinai one handed and it landed at the center of his men not just to my surprise but also to his. He wasn't expecting that and he just smiled at me as a confirmation that it worked perfectly against him and there is nothing wrong with that except that one's pride is at stake. I was even thinking that it was a bit embarrassing to fall from that simple ploy. But I was not punished or scolded for doing that.

I even used once a kamae where my shinai is horizontally above my head and it worked tremendously against my opponent(6thdan). He was very fast and a killing machine hitting my do several times as he kept disappearing in my front and back. I used that stance to steadily protect my men and kote, and to defend my do by simply lowering the tip of my shinai on my side and from that position I can execute easily a good men after he strike. Well, it worked and I had no problem with that. BTW, is there a name for that stance?

Are there any rules or ettiques in general about when to used an unusual kamae? Or it's just your dojo rules telling you not to do that. Are there things you don't do in most dojo in Japan that one can do outside Japan? Or are there universal rules from IKF or AJKF strict rules that prohibits these things?

[alexpollijr]

As far as I know, there are no 'kamae' restrictions on the IKF rules of the game booklet. However, you know that shimpan can be very subjective in their function. Therefore, hits without 'reasonable form' would not count. And probably a hit from a non-orthodox position will not be awarded the point. HAve to see it yet though.

There was this talk of a guy named Gombe who's winnining a few cups using a weird kamae. Check back the threads, I believe you've seeen it around.
I believe that caution should be applied in these cases so that it doesn't become a brawl with sticks, from any position htting any target. The concept of kikentaiichi to me is closely linked with the current kamae of shinai kendo.

And Mingshi, you know that to me kendo is a sport and therefore if a technique can't help me score points then why?

<jumps into flame-retardant suit again>

[Confound]

Mr. Schmidt,

I am never polite to my detractors, I find it's wasted breath. You will find fault in anything. I could say, 'Isn't it a lovely day, Mr. Schmidt,' to which you would reply, "It's a ruddy awful day, people are dying in Nigeria."

I respect my sempai, greatly. I treat them with respect in and out of the budokan. they know enough about me as a person to know that if I use hasso, or some other strange kamae or waza, it's either out of a lack of understanding (which is to be expected in a beginning kendouka), or because it has some kind of advantage, not because I'm setting out to insult them by every means possible.

c

[JSchmidt]

"You will find fault in anything."

Confused,is that some kind of reference to yourself?. Do a quick review of your posts on this board and you'll see what I mean.

Jakob.

[Confound]

Mr. Schmidt,

Perhaps it is you who should review my posts. The flaming ones tend to live long in people's memories. The others tend to die quickly.

c

[Antonin]

Originally posted by Confound
Mr. Schmidt,

Perhaps it is you who should review my posts. The flaming ones tend to live long in people's memories. The others tend to die quickly.

c

I have reviewed the posts, and I have to agree with Jakob (that's Mr Schmidt for you: I don't believe he counts you among his friends...)...
Can't you read either ;-) ????
Antonin

[heri0n]

not to be mistakened but hasso is the one holding your sword on the right side with your hands around yuor mouth and heart right?
well... my sensei will used it pretty often against me at least
it was pretty effective... hit me pretty good with it :P but not like it made a difference whether he used chudan or hasso.. he got me either way.. although it was pretty fun

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by heri0n
not to be mistakened but hasso is the one holding your sword on the right side with your hands around yuor mouth and heart right?
well... my sensei will used it pretty often against me at least
it was pretty effective... hit me pretty good with it :P but not like it made a difference whether he used chudan or hasso.. he got me either way.. although it was pretty fun .

........
I forgot to say there is both migi and hidari hasso, although we dont see or do the latter so much nowadays.

That sort of brings us back to the possibilty of scoreing from Jodan as there are also two of them too.

Hyaku

[Confound]

So there really is a hidari hasso... Thanks, Hyaku. I'll try that next time, it will leave my kote a little less vulnerable (yes, I know he can just hit the OTHER kote, but at least it will be a new bruise, not an extension of the old one).

As for Antonin, I'm not interested in turning this thread into a society column.

[Steve]

I'm currently a fledgling Jodan player, so i'll add what I've been told to this discussion concerning the majority of the points brought up here.

1) Until you are 3rd Dan or so, you should ask if you may use a non-chudan kamae vs a senior. otherwise its disrespectful. why? The "mentality" of jodan is that you are telling your opponent "I'm ready for anything you've got....try and hit me if you can. look at all the suki i've provided for you." Jodan is sucessful only if you are able to literally control your opponents actions. assuming this against a senior tells them that this is what you KNOW you are going to do to them. get it?

2) You must use Jodan almost 100% of the time. Basic suburi and kiri-kaeshi should be from chudan (according to many sensei i've spoken with), but drills should be modified accordingly to practice Jodan waza. Same for foot work, modify that accordingly when opportunity arises.

3) Jodan is meant primarily for attack ie "offensive" stance. However it does have a number of "defensive" waza: Shinai uchi, nuki waza, a really cool anti-tsuki waza (don't know name), and a few others.

4) If somebody assumes Jodan, GO FOR TSUKI. One, they are inviting it and most expect its attempt. Secondly, a Jodan player needs to be in a position where they don't fear tsuki attempts. It also provides an opportunity for them to learn the above anti-tsuki waza.

5) Yes, you can hit do from Jodan. In fact you can hit any target (other than Tsuki) via katate or morote as you can from Chudan.

6) If you assume Jodan, be prepared to be decimated for the first while. You essentially have to make your body/mind re-learn almost everything. But thats part of the fun, IMO!

[kendo_chick]

A past member of our club tried to do Gedan-no-kamae (though he did not have the speed needed) and ended up tsuki-ing people in the balls or knees caps or the area of the tare between the flaps and the do... very painful indeed. Needless to say, it's good not to play with that kamae anymore!

[2muchryt]

confound,
e-communication seems a little prone to misunderstanding to me.

do you mean to say that during jiyugeiko (sp?) if you were to accidently
whack your sensei's/sempai's elbow, you wouldn't give up a "gommen na sai"
untill after you took off your bogu?

may i ask what rank you are? (just curious)

Nakabara Sensei 8th dan Hanshi used a sort of a hasso kamae.
although i doubt he considered it "hasso", he was just beyond
anything mortal. that is to say that he had such strong seme and ki, no
matter how he held the shinai.

stinky kote,
i'm sorry (my bogu is off), i have seen that "kamae"
(not turning after do, but an actual "kamae") and i must say it's so lame.
just swing your shinai up and hit his shinai out of his hand and send it
flying from one end of the dojo to the other. that should (hopefully) be
the last time you see that crap.
just my thoughts. didn't mean to be such a flamer:)

[Steve]

Hey Kendo_Chick! Ah yes, the curse of the Gedan user. Luckily for me, jodan has a longer reach than the his kensen in gedan, and i was only hit in the nuts once or twice. yeesh!

Some sensei's i've talked to (remember Kimura Kendo_Chick?) says not to apologise for hitting elbows and such. Its something you and your partener know will happen from time to time and is part of learning Kendo. "Suffer the pain together" was what he said i believe (while smiling).

Personally, if i hit somebody in the ribs / elbow etc... and i know it hurt (you can tell by the sound) i always give a quick apology and then keep going. Unless of course the person buckles in pain and needs a break...which i regret to say has happened more than once.

[kendo_chick]

Agreed Steve.

[2muchryt]

a lot of our dojo's kenshi work or live here but were
born and raised in Japan or Korea.
of these kenshi there are, generally speaking, two types.
first type is the older, university educated, professional, gentleman type.
these are usually our sensei. they have a very high level of kendo and
are prone to say things like "not to apologize for hitting elbows and such"
and "Suffer the pain together".
the other type of kenshi i have encountered is the younger, 4 year visa,
going for a post grad degree, Jr. high and high school style kendo, "want to
stay in touch with my roots" type.
these are usually our sempai. they are very good at shiai, if they were
allowed, i am sure you would see some of them on the US team.
(they are not citizens).
they are prone to get very upset at things like being hit in the elbow
by a 1st or 2nd dan by throwing a tsuki (and obviously is not that good at it)
or trying out a "new" kamae they just read about in a book.
not holding a high rank myself, i canÕt comment on which one i think is "right".
just an observation by someone who doesn't know much.
i myself have, as i am sure other non-asian kenshi have, gotten
punched in the head, knocked on my ass, bruised all over my legs, arms,
body, by sempai for doing stuff like that.
but thatÕs nothing compared to the years of daily beating and ass
whuppin's the average Japanese or Korean jr. high school/high school kenshi gets from their sempai. its WAY different than going to the local kendo club once or twice a week and, i think, something kind of difficult for non asians to understand. (not that i understand it).
"if youÕre not peeing blood, youÕre not practicing"

my sensei said.
"in kendo,
beginning level is "kill"
high level is "love""
i would like to think thatÕs why you always see those
graceful, high ranking, sensei smiling while they do kendo.
you can feel their joy.

[bukowski]

I have been reading many things that people are saying about waki no kamae and hasso no kamae. Hasso is a neutral kamae, with close examination you will realize that it is somewhat of a defensive stance, yet, at the same time, the sword is raised upwards with the blade facing the opponent, creating fear in the opponent similar to the effect of jodan no kamae. Waki no kamae is actually a very self-assured and aggressive stance, for you are hiding your blade and your strength from your opponent. If done properly and with the right intensity, it can be as aggressive as chudan no kamae. Unfortunately, some of the usefulness of waki no kamae is lost in Kendo, because the main cut that was launched from waki no kamae was a slice up through the opponent's armpit area, which is impossible with a shinai.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by taiwnezboi
Confound: just wondering.. why're you so mean and rude to everyone all of the time? you're training in Japan.. I thought that training there would teach someone discipline and respect for others.. but I guess not..

She's not mean and rude to everyone all the time, she's just mean and rude to some, some of the time.

BOAPITA really.

[Steve]

To all those complaining about Confound:

As somebody posted earlier, Kendo is supposed to make you learn respect and such for other people. Many of you are "flaming" Confound for various comments and such made, saying that its disrespectful, your a pain, i'd do such and such if we met in a dojo, etc...

Fine.

But aren't you doing right now exactly what your complaining Confound is doing? Don't complain about somebody being rude, or not showing respect, etc... if you are going to join in on it.

If somebody truly gets out of line, the moderators will take care of it. Thats their job, not ours.

Now how about we get this thread back on topic, and try to help each other learn something. That is why you read/post here isn't it?

Just my two cents.

[Hyaku]

When all's said and done in Kendo, chudan is a good honest kamae allowing you to seek out the opponents heart and spirit on an equal footing.

Any other kamae has to be mishmash of adapted, bastardized positions to simulate classical swordsmanship. Kendo sees us bringing the hands above the head following a kamae. Real Hasso has us raising the hands far higher to the side of the head, far higher than the wings of a kendo men would allow to cut straight forward and down or into the neck etc.

A gedan posture pricipaly allows us the rise and/or block a downward strike or thrust up into the body (not advisable in Kendo).

Another and most important point is the fact that originaly body avoiding moves were used with these kamae.

To play about sounds more like chanbara to me unless you also have a good foundation in more classical kenjutsu.

Practice time is all to short to reach a high degree in standard skills. So why mess about?

Hyaku

[Steve]

I think i posted this in another post somewhere but here is a quote (or my rendition of from memory) from the book of five rings:

The middle guard (chudan) is like the general of a large army, and the other guards are like the lieutenants. This must be studied carefully.

Meaning chudan is the most important kamae, and the others (or knowledge thereof) follow that one. Chudan is essential for knowing the others, and will always be the most powerful / useful kamae.

[aru-ma]

Originally posted by Steve
chudan is the most important kamae, and the others (or knowledge thereof) follow that one. Chudan is essential for knowing the others, and will always be the most powerful / useful kamae.

I agree with you on that one, if you take a closer look at it everything revolves around chudan, and I'm not going to go into other more 'exotic' kamae until I can do everything from chudan though jodan does sound tempting after looking at how Chiba sensei does it:)

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Hyaku
Any other kamae has to be mishmash of adapted, bastardized positions to simulate classical swordsmanship.

This is so true.

I was wondering if that applies to Nito in Kendo too (although not a kamae but...)?

Seems like Nito Kendo is for Miyamoto Musashi wannabes. I don't think any Nito player (yes, PLAYERS) knows anything about the proper way to handle 2 swords. But there are so many "advance" Kendoka practising it. It is even the most popular weirdos second to Jodan, and still approved by the IKF and AJKF.

What a strange Kendo phenomenon...

[Paburo]

It is even the most popular weirdos second to Jodan,

hahahaha.

who knows. maybe kendo is evoluting into an 'anything goes' martial art.

why not create a style where you could use more than just 2 swords and do any kamae then?

one of my senseis is about to make it a reality...

we'll call him the juutousai, master of ten swords :D

http://kenwakai.org/img/Hq21.jpg

[Ares2907]

Mingshi: 'Seems like Nito Kendo is for Miyamoto Musashi wannabes. I don't think any Nito player (yes, PLAYERS) knows anything about the proper way to handle 2 swords'

Can't help but have a chuckle here. Are you saying that you think that anyone who does kendo knows how to handle one sword? Or were you talking about shinai? This looks like getting into a real sword vs kendo discussion so I'll attempt to steer the conversation away from there since it's already been done to death.

I think nito (and jodan for that matter) are just as relevant in kendo as chudan. Yes I believe one needs a thorough understanding of chudan before adopting something different, but rather than look at jodan or nito as bastardizations of kenjutsu or even mutations of kendo, I prefer to look at them as tributaries flowing alongside a larger river. They may diverge initially but essentially they are trying to achieve the same mastery of technique that the rest of us are.

Of course there are some who take it up to avoid chudan when it gets hard, but I think on the whole that jodan and nito add a lot more to the kendo experience than they take away.

[JSchmidt]

There's a godan who plays nito in one of the dojos I go to and he said something to the same effect..that he started nito to improve his chudan.
Personally, I've had great benefits in my kendo overall from doing jodan. The concepts of distance, pressure and opportunity are made a lot more clear (for me anyway) in jodan. (Not that it makes it any easier!..just more clear that I'm lacking in those concepts)
They're both a part of kendo.

Jakob

[chidokan]

The best use of wakigamae I ever saw was when I was doing a demo at a local Uni. There was a jujitsu demo on next to us, and the instructoir was disarming his students of various things, plastic chain, plastic 'broken' bottles etc. He was doing quite well, and had taken a bokuto off this girl already. She stopped and watched the kendo kata for a bit, then did the best cut from waki, ie straight up forward past the leg.
She just missed his 'jewels', and the idiot tried to catch the sword. One broken thumb later, (and when the class had stopped as the ambulance drove away) we had several inquiries for the kendo from the jujitsu class...:D
I also fence from gedan now and again to make sure my students are on the ball, its a very easy kote if they're not...

Tim Hamilton

[Ares2907]

I wonder how long it will be before they learn to just fire of katate tsuki. It's the best defense I've found so far against gedan.

[Confound]

Originally posted by 2muchryt
confound,
e-communication seems a little prone to misunderstanding to me.

do you mean to say that during jiyugeiko (sp?) if you were to accidently
whack your sensei's/sempai's elbow, you wouldn't give up a "gommen na sai"
untill after you took off your bogu?


In the main group I practice with, we have a fairly easygoing attitude toward missed strikes, whacked elbows, smacked wrists, etc. Personally, I had a horrible time for months with a senior who consistently hits kote really hard (one strike leaves a bruise). Though he rarely misses, I often tried to dodge, or do kote suriage men, or some other countering waza. There were many, many bruises. I never asked for an apology, even when it got so bad in one practice that I had to stop, because my arm was numb. Luckily, another sempai noticed the problem, and recommended a wrist supporter. That solved the problem.

I am not so accurate. Sometimes I miss, and other times (especially with dou or gyaku-dou), it's a spectacular miss. This is expected. Everyone knows I'm inexperienced, but I'm trying the best I can. The greatest disrespect you can show your sempais and senseis is not to try. For that, no apology can cover the sin.

Missing a strike or bruising an elbow, are both time honoured parts of practice. You can't expect to put on bogu and not get some minor scrapes or purple spots. A serious injury, however, deserves an apology, with bogu off, in a respectful manner. Frankly, I believe that apologizing with bogu on is a trivialization of the apology itself. It says, "I don't think it's worth my time to take off my men and kote, so that we can communicate properly." That kind of a statement devalues the apology.

Since I haven't caused any serious injury, I haven't apologized. The only apologies I make are for missing practices, and there's generally a very good reason for the absence.

c

ps - I wouldn't say 'Gomen nasai' either. It would also trivialize the apology. 'Domo sumimasen' would be more appropriate. damned otaku japanese.

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by Ares2907

I think nito (and jodan for that matter) are just as relevant in kendo as chudan. Yes I believe one needs a thorough understanding of chudan before adopting something different, but rather than look at jodan or nito as bastardizations of kenjutsu or even mutations of kendo, I prefer to look at them as tributaries flowing alongside a larger river. They may diverge initially but essentially they are trying to achieve the same mastery of technique that the rest of us are.

Of course there are some who take it up to avoid chudan when it gets hard, but I think on the whole that jodan and nito add a lot more to the kendo experience than they take away. [/B]

An interesting concept: There are many Japanese who have thought the same way. Most of them in the past have just been "kareha" a leaf on the tree of swordsmanship that eventually fall. Yet in the past some have excelled to be swordsmen with their own right. But people have been trying to improve and excel in sword methods for a good many years now and I dont think there is much left out there that hasnt been tried.

With a good foundation in most facets for more than a few years I still don't feel ready to take that step to try to inovate. Most of my time is spent trying to seperate them into what looks like to decent kendo, kenjutsu or batto.
Invariably I find the technique of one has crept into the other.

What may be ok to try out in you own dojo is an embarrasment at a demonstration or Mohan-engi.

Hyaku

[Confound]

Paburo,

Someone already beat your sempai to it, unfortunately. He's
Senjiro, from the anime series One Piece. He even wields a Katana between his teeth. Impressive, and so totally unrealistic. I caught one of my students, in the budokan without permission, trying to swing around a shinai he had in his mouth. He'd snuck into the girls' changing room to get it, and if it'd been mine, he would have been sounding smacked with it. Luckily, it was an old one we were going to throw away.

Yet another stupid story,

c

[Steve]

Nito ,Jodan, and any other kamae are all extensions of basic chudan, not weird mutations.

I was once given a very exact translation of the full name for nito. (can't remember it now though...) but it basically comes down to the meaning "Two swords acting as one point". If you want to be able to use "two swords acting as one point", you definately must know how to use "One sword with one point".

Thats my horrible rendition of how the sensei explained it to me. It was a lot nicer when he said it, but i think you can understand the meaning.

[moocow65]

Just because you do jodan or nito doesn't make you a weirdo. If you're just doing it to look cool, then you're an idiot, not a weirdo. Jodan and nito are basically one strike kamae. There are no kote men combos. Because of this, more seme, timing, spirit, speed, and all that other good kendo stuff are needed to be really accomplished at these two kamae. With seigan, you can rely on multiple strikes and feints and other tactics. With jodan and nito, you can't do that, you have to rely on the other stuff i.e. seme and timing. And to the person who called jodan and nito "players" weirdos, go tell Chiba sensei and Toda sensei that. They are both hachi-dan and are remarkable jodan and nito practitioners respectively. These "weirdos" both won the All-Japan Championship with Jodan also.

[kendokamax]

btw

chiba sensei can do kote-men from jodan

:|...so amazing

[mingshi]

Originally posted by moocow65
Just because you do jodan or nito doesn't make you a weirdo. If you're just doing it to look cool, then you're an idiot, not a weirdo.
So are you actually an idiot? I re-read your first post and it actually says:-

i started nito cause i was getting really bored with itto.

You also got a strange concept here:-

Jodan and nito are basically one strike kamae.
What I was saying earlier about "proper way to handle 2 swords" is that, people doing Jodan/Nito never really learn/think about what they are doing were based on... People pick up 2 Shinai, and then they think, "Oh well, I'm taking a one strike Kamae now...". Well, what do you think all the Kata that teaches Jodan-no-Kamae and all the Koryu Nito-no-Kata are doing?

One more thing:-

And to the person who called jodan and nito "players" weirdos, go tell Chiba sensei and Toda sensei that.
Yeah right. They are 8th Dan, so they can do any weirdo they want. If you consider Hasso, Gedan etc. to be irregularities, Nito is the weirdest of the weird allowed in an actual Kendo Shiai.

Remember this when we can draw a comparison:-
TSUKI IS A WEIRDO TARGET AND ONLY HACHIDAN ARE ALLOWED TO TSUKI PEOPLE.
Are you all satisfied? :p

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendokamax
btw

chiba sensei can do kote-men from jodan

:|...so amazing
Lots of good jodan players can do that. I can do it but not well. I've seen footage of jodan guys in the All-Japans doing it as fast or faster one-handed than I can do with two.

[Steve]

I don't suppose anyone would have an internet link to a video or a video they would be willing to sell a copy of showing Chiba Sensei or Toda Sensei using Jodan? I've never had the pleasure of seeing them in action. I'd love to see a Katate Kote-Men!

[chidokan]

maybe if someone has that they could put a clip up on their website?

[megumisita]

This thead is very interesting.
After reading all of it I would have say that I find this post to be most in line with the way I think.

"If they become dangerous, like trying a lot of tsuki they aren't ready for or hitting gyaku-do off-target or whatever, then I have to stop and tell them not to do that. [/QUOTE]
What the....? Not even Gyaku-do? It's dangerous too? That's my favourite target so far!! It's a completely valid target but now NOBODY hit it (apart from my Sensei) which make it like a "Sune-ate"-- I get it many times out of my opponents' surprise. So is Tsuki.

Ever been repeatedly tsuki-ed into a wall? I've seen it happen...
Yes. You've only seen it happen? I have that so many times that I've lost count already.

As for taking 'any' kamae against jodan, you can take any 'kamae' you want, but it won't be kendo anymore, and I doubt judges would give it a point if you struck someone from hasso.
1) Taking any Kamae "won't be Kendo anymore"? So what is Kendo Kata all about?
2) Don't focus on Shiai too much. Judges give point to bad-posture-shiai-kendo, so why not Hasso? And there are official regualtions saying that, "If your opponent takes any Kamae rather than Chudan, you can strike their left Kote". Other Kamae are officially permitted."
-------------------

"Okay. About my logic this time:-

1) I will do my straight-est Kendo against a Kohei. Because They are learning from me, and I'll cut them with the best I can. I won't do tsuki on anyone junior than myself. So most of the time, against a beginner it'll be Ai-Men all the way.

2) I will do whatever I want to learn on a Senpai/Sensei. At the moment I'm doing a lot of Harai and Suriage-waza on them because I want to improve that. A lot of Do on both sides, Tsuki, Gedan (Have enough Hasso experiment already). I have to try these on THEM because they are my senior and they would be able to teach me how to improve them. If I try them on juniors they'll end up learning bad techniques. I do because I'm not confident in using these techniques, so that they can teach me. Not "I'm so confident in my kendo against you ...".

3) Hmm... I fight against a senior to improve my Kendo. That's why I go and stand in front of him, and practice cuts on him. Would you say that is "trying to beat you"? Or should I stand there just let him hit me, "trying not to beat them"??

4) "If someone takes jodan, he is inviting tsuki"
So if I want to learn Tsuki, should I go Jodan sometimes?"


In my dojo, my sensei loves it when students take other stances. Gedan and hasso are two of his favorite stances. In fact, he wants all of his students to know at least two stances equally well. Chudan would be one and the whatever other one the student would want. We also practice heavily on do. Switching stances in the middle of the fight is also seen as completely valid. I don't know about other dojos, but we are taught to evade left or right. I don't know how many times visiting kendoka have been defeated simply because my sensei took one step to the left or right when they went for men. If we take a stance like hasso and defeat our opponents and the judges dont count it then we are supposed to consider it irrelevant. WE know that the opponent was defeated cleanly. I don't see what the big deal is about using other kamae. We simply modify our kenjutsu for kendo competitions. I'm not too knowledgeable about all the kendo rules so I would imagine that our Kogen Itto Ryu would differ quite a bit.
Hitting do from Jodan as the first attack is also quite effective as one of my senseis has proven many times.

[megumisita]

I thought there were 3 Jodan stances. One with the kissaki pointing at an angle over your right shoulder, one with the kissaki in line with your left shoulder so the shinai is is completely horizontal above your head, and one where the shinai is completely vertical in front of your forehead so that your left wrist is above your eyesight. All of these have been used to great effect by my Jodan sensei.

[Confound]

Yes, there are three: left jodan, right jodan and normal jodan.

c

[James]

I agree,
Like Mr Spocks has three ears,
- no he didn't , they were just pointy
Yes he did: the left ear, the right ear, and the final front ear.

[Steve]

go to www.skykumdo.com. They have various movies about Kumdo/Kendo. One of them is about a Korean man who came in third place in an amateur tournament. He has no left hand, only an open handed prosthetic. He does Jodan with his right hand (not to mention all of his suburi) at the base of the shinai. Its awesome to see.

There are (technically) 4 different Jodan kamae. Migi jodan, and Hidari Jodan. Now reverse your hand placement on your shinai, ie right hand at bottom. Now you have two more Jodan Kamae.

[stuartwilson]

One of my sensei has taught us that wakigamae is the "hidden sword" stance. One might adopt this stance as an opponent approaches, to conceal the length of his sword as long as possible.

[tango]

nevermind.

[MaxHanzo]

Back to the Hasso talking, I remembered a technique that reminds of hasso, but I wonder whether there is a relationship between them.

Has anyone ever heard about katsugi waza? The stance between the taunt and the attack looks a lot like hasso no kamae. Is there any relationship?

[Sanjuro]

Max Hanzo-

I don't think so...apart from having a passing similar appearance katsugi is a waza, not a kamae. Also, the aim of katsugi is to confuse your opponent and take advantage of the confusion it causes. Fighting from a different kamae would not have the same effect. I could be wrong, though.

[rfoxmich]

I was told by my sensei that Hasso no kamae is essentially jodan when it's not practical to get your arms over your head..e.g. when wearing a kabuto. Another point on top of that, from the point of view of shinken shobu, rather than kendo's limited targeting is that hasso-no-kamae is an ideal prepratory position for cutting kesa-giri (shoulder to hip cut [so named because it follows the path of the sash of a monk's wallet called the kesa]).

RF