Why is kendo so different from kendo kata?

[Haowen]

As an aside from the thread discussing kendo from hasso, I've noticed that there are a great many strange and wonderful things that happen during kata that never occur during normal kendo. Not just kamae such as hasso, gedan and wakigamae but also free use of both migi and hidari stances, and fancy footwork such as ayumi ashi.

I don't know but it seems to me that the kata are more beautiful and flowing than shiai, which seems to have much fewer variations (chudan and okuri ashi is used almost exclusively). Then again, I have not seen many high level competitions.

I do not understand, if kendo is the study of the sword and the kata is an integral part of the curriculum, why is so much of kata not actually directly applicable?

[JSchmidt]

The short answer?..due to the limited target areas and the way scoring is done, kendo effectivly eliminates all but chudan and jodan.. (The armor also pretty much removes whatever useability wakigamae might have had)

Jakob

[nodachi]

My sensei say things like Kata are good for your Ki.

Although I am too inexperienced to really feel my Ki or apply it. Maybe some of you can shed some light.

[Confound]

I don't buy into the 'magical mystery' school of kendou, so you won't hear me rambling on about ki and the spirit world. (Though I really did like 'Spirited Away".) That said, kata are a vehicle to teach the experience that others have had in real situations.

I agree that many kata contain elements that are not present in shiai; however, the lessons taught by kata are crucial for improving your kendou. When performing kata, cleanliness and good form are very important, two things that often fall by the wayside in shiai kendou. Doing kata is a reminder of the 'pure kendou' hated by some, who shall remain clearly indicated but nameless.

Kata can also develop a strong cutting attitide, and an ability to intimidate one's opponent psychologically.

bleh. Feels like I'm preaching ot the converted, and my space bar isbeing incalcitrant.

c

[Kendoka]

Kata, shinai kendo and iaido are all part of Japanese swordsmanship. They all complement each other.

When you use a bokken in kata, you get to feel a little of what a real sword may be like to use, when you progress a few dans and start to use swords in kata then you are really getting there !
(or close !)

Kata can teach you the moves of things like hiki-men (K1), kote - harai - kote (K2) etc. You can then develop the skill and work on the speed to do those (and other) techniques effectively in shinai kendo.

Kata can help you develop zan-shin and your concentration.

As you progress you will find that in some shinai kendo situations there are occasional opportunities to use some of the techniques learnt in kata.

R.

[David J]

It is a good question though. How many other martial arts do you think have kata in them that then have no direct application in the practice of the art? Obviously kata are interesting, you learn stuff blah blah, but it is indeed a curiousity that they contain so much stuff that you cant (for a variety of reasons) actually use.

I wonder where the "chudan or nothing" approach to Kendo comes from? Its not like chudan / men-uchi doesnt give you enough to contend with, but why are some soooo anti anything else? Especially when these things are in the kata that you have to learn anyway! Seems like its bound to give people a taste of Jodan etc and leave them hungry...


<rei>

Dave

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why do you think the waza in the kata aren't usable in shinai kendo? You'll note that there really isn't anything happening in the kata from the "odd" kamae, they mostly come down to chudan or jodan where the real action is. You can certainly use suri-ashi and ayumi-ashi. You can attack onto your left foot. Watch the old men closely, and check how often they use alternate footwork.

[Tato]

Yep, just had a seminar with a 7 Dan Saito sensei, he actually used many things that we practice on kata, and he insisted in kata practice during almost a third of the time.

At the same time he insited the beginers like us learned well the basics before trying whatever fancy.

Rei.

[JSchmidt]

"I wonder where the "chudan or nothing" approach to Kendo comes from?"

I guess it comes from making sure that people learn chudan properly. Chudan is by far the best 'generic' kamae, giving you equal opportunities for both offense and defense.
Jodan is virtually useless when it comes to oji-waza, but attacks from jodan can be extremly powerful.
It's also very hard to teach the concept of 'center' and 'seme' from the other kamaes..On the other hand, from doing jodan, I've learned a lot about distance, as most people in chudan tend to judge distance with the shinais.

Jakob

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by David J
... Obviously kata are interesting, you learn stuff blah blah, but it is indeed a curiousity that they contain so much stuff that you cant (for a variety of reasons) actually use.


Do you mean YOU cant use (yet) or that no-one can use ?

IMHO most of the waza in kata are usable in some form in shinai kendo.

[nodachi]

If Kendo kata are anything like other martial art forms, you use them on a very unconscious level. You do it without realizing it. You first need to practice the kata/forms to the point to where you can do it without any thinking whatsoever. Then a time after practicing beyond that point, it will be like a reflex. When you are in a situation where the kata/form is applicable, you will merely act because it is ingrained in your head. Kinda like a conditioned response that you do automatically. Or at least that is how martial arts forms have always been explained to me.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Kendoka
IMHO most of the waza in kata are usable in some form in shinai kendo.

True. The unusable ones are not selected as Kendo no Kata. If you take a look at Koryu Kenjutsu there are a lot of weird Kamae and cuts to other targets.

--------------------------
Actually, to continue my arguement on "Why kata?"....

1) Does anyone know how often the Police Squad, Education Universities, and other professional Kendo people practice their Kata?

2) If Kata can correct these and improve those, why can't you correct and improve purely by using Shinai and wearing Bogu?

[Critical_Bill]

there are lots of good things about the kendo kata, as stated concentration improvement and such.
I've also used a waki gamae in a fight, it'll work once.. my oppenent thought "what the heck is he doing?" and i was free to do a men :)

[David J]

Originally posted by Kendoka


Do you mean YOU cant use (yet) or that no-one can use ?

IMHO most of the waza in kata are usable in some form in shinai kendo.

Apologies - my post was badly worded and seemed flippant. What I was getting at was that there is a lot of stuff in there that as a novice doesnt seem to be very like "regular" Kendo. Re-reading an old kata thread...

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=199

...I am re-considering. My point was (albeit badly made), that most martial arts seem to have kata that contain the common moves of that art, at a level commensurate with the practitioner's grade. You are level 1, you know moves a,b,c, you learn a kata that goes aabacaad for instance.

But to pass Kendo level 1(say, ikkyu) I must learn Jodan. But then studying, I'm sure like many, at a dojo which is focussed on chudan, I then cant actually use this.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not anti-kata. I just find an interesting difference in Kendo's relationship with kata compared to that of, say, karate or kung fu.

Not sure if that's any clearer.....;)

<rei>

Dave

[JSchmidt]

"But to pass Kendo level 1(say, ikkyu) I must learn Jodan. But then studying, I'm sure like many, at a dojo which is focussed on chudan, I then cant actually use this."

That's not entirely true. You do learn an important lesson about distance and opportunity.

Jakob

[Confound]

Nodachi,

Where in the nine hells of Chinese mythologuy do you come up with this crazy 'ingrained in your head' hogwash? Shall you next propose that there is some mystical energy unleashed by the kata that can be transferred into your shinai and released in a ball of ki?

Kata are functional. Ipponme is men-nuki-men, nihonme is kote-nuki-kote. Sanbonme is about too many things to sum up here. (Incidentally, I recently saw explanations for hiki-tsuki. A long time ago, someone posted that they hoped the manouever didn't exist. Since then, I've seen it in at least one book. Scary.)

Dave,

I agree that kata sometimes seem to anticipate quite widely the needs of the beginning kendouka; however, it is useful perhaps more in observation than in application. As beginning kendouka, we see many things in the dojo, quite a bit goes over our heads. Kendou kata introduce alternatives to the basics which we are learning. This gives us the vocabulary and rudimentary knowledge to at least ask questions about what our sempais are doing. (I get really annoyed with people who don't know all the basic kamae by name after at least three months. What have you been doing all that time in the back? Picking your nose?)

As to the kata other martial arts, my knowledge is limited. However, judou is somewhat familiar. In judou, there are far more kata. The beginning kata (over 30 from what I've heard), are simply demonstrations of a single type of throw or hold. The later waza are more like ipponme and sanbonme, they demonstrate what would be called 'nuki-waza' or 'debana-waza' in kendou. (What they're called in judou, I don't know.)

Later waza include such exotic things as defense against armed assailants, and incapacitating people with guns, but those I've only seen in books.

_______________________

Personally, I like kata. Perhaps it's because they're as close as I can get to kobudo for now.

c

[nodachi]

"Kata are functional."

I agree.

I was only trying to refer to the functional nature of the kata as well. Like riding a bike. This is how I ride a bike, I've ridden a bike so much I do it without thinking. When such and such happens on a bike, I do such and such, without thinking because I have done it so much.

Same goes for kata.

[2muchryt]

The Truth of Kendo is contained in Kata.
Everything that we use in Kendo, shiai or otherwise,
is there, in the Kata.