How do you treat beginers in your club?

[kendokamax]

How do you treat beginers in your club?

In my club, beginners are very important to us, since we are an university club people come and leave so fast we dont always remember their first name.

Every semester we have at least 20 or so new beginners, some of them dont show too much interest, so after 3-4 months at least.. 10 survive and make the cut to bogu.

Everyone is quite young and have all the same age (18 to mid 20).

This semester, since we lacked into having one very experience senpai, we decided to make groups of teaching for the beginners. So every class, a pair of bogu people go with the beginners into an other room and show them all the required basics. We alternate the pair every class. At the end of the semester they have a examination where they have to show their stuff (kiriakeshi, men,kote,kote-men, do) and the 3 first kata.

I'm not too sure if having pairs helped in the developement of the beginners, I actually afraid it didnt help sooo much. But what we really cared for is that they enjoy their experience and stick to kendo after the regular class is over. So at the begining our job is more the one of trying to bring an interest in kendo to them. Giving some hard work-out for no appereant reasons and so on...a bit more like aerobics than kendo lol

After that, it's all up to them to continue or not..

For the first examination, the best of them usualy get third kyu , and most of them 4 kyu (I got 4th kyu when I passed my first exam :'( ). After that the regulate class of kendo (the university one) is over and we begin the unnoficial class schedule where, after 4 months of basics, they have the chance to try bogu.. (depending of the number they are and if we have enough bogu in spare).

I'd like to hear how you do it in your respective dojo or kendo club.

[Ares2907]

I think if you treat beginners with some sort of topical cream, it should clear them right up, like other infections. :p

I think, with teaching beginners it really can be a case of 'too many cooks' if you throw a lot of people at them early on. In any case they are going to have massive amounts of new information coming at them constantly. To add the different teaching methods of many different people is imho not always conducive to the effectiveness of their learning.
Having said that, I think if you stick with basic ashi-sabaki and the men cut until they can do it reasonably competently, then move on to kirikaeshi, it's hard to go wrong.

[kendokamax]

we need the beginners to stay...

[Atama]

The thing that bugged the hell out of me when i first started kendo was that 10 different people would tell me 10 different ways of doing a technique.

As our club is pretty new we decided to do a 10week beginer course it costs £50 and each student gets a shinai and boken and 10 classes, we had 15 sign up within a couple of weeks. In order not to disrupt training for the guys in bogu we split the beginers and sensie and sempi would rotate training the beginers. After 4 weeks we started sticking 2 at a time into the club bogu they all enjoyed it and 2 have already purchased their own sets.

I don't know if I'd have stuck out kendo if i had to wait 4 months to get into bogu.

[David J]

I think beginners get treated very well indeed in our dojo. In general its such a friendly and non-intimidating atmosphere that I think the only thing that will stop people coming back is if they actually dont like Kendo (or dont think they would).

Our beginners progress at pretty much their own rate - some move into bogu very (too) quickly, some possibly avoid it a shade too long (puts hand up). I think what helps keep people from the non-bogu group interested and coming back is that its not two hours of men-uchi every week. There's a fair amount of variety in what they get to do, and they are integrated into the bogu group some of the time. I think this helps everyone in bogu remember that they have debts to pay back to the next generation of beginners - I think the sempai / kohai relationship is pretty well understood by all. Thankfully there is enough club bogu that the unsure or skint can avoid shelling out for their own bogu for quite some time.

I think its a real shame that UK Kendo is so small that our dojo (which I'd say is ideal size - 70 members, 20-40 in attendance per night on average) counts as unusually big. One of the things that keeps beginners encouraged in anything is a peer group - its a big help to share a beer with people who are struggling as much as you are. Obviously if you're in a small club, you may feel rather alone....

<rei>

Dave

[KhawMengLee]

Treat everyone as you would a person in your household. The beginners one day will be the core kyu graders in the club and it will be up to them to teach the next batch of beginners. What is good for them will be good for you.

Also in training one learns better from people just slightly better than oneself. A novice cannot expect to fully develop against a yondan in full competitiion. But against a kyu grader he/she can do better and even beat them(victory is at a obtainable level). As we progress we learn to compete against tougher opponents.

We treat beginners with naturing care and may push them but not treat them harshly. But after 6 months we expect you to at least know some of the basics. for example actually know about maai and not try to cut men from like 1 foot from the target.

MENG

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee

Also in training one learns better from people just slightly better than oneself. A novice cannot expect to fully develop against a yondan in full competitiion. But against a kyu grader he/she can do better and even beat them(victory is at a obtainable level). As we progress we learn to compete against tougher opponents.
I disagree totally with this statement. As a beginner, free practice with someone your own level or slightly higher is fun but is wasting time if you are interested in improving. The point of being motodachi is not to beat up the student, it's to help them improve. The best motodachi are always adjusting their level to be slightly better than the student. This is the highest level of teaching skill in my opinion. A few years ago, we had a student visit us who had started with our club and then moved away but kept practicing. He said to our instructor, "sensei, you have gotten much stronger since I last saw you". The reply was "I haven't changed, you have improved".

As to the original question - the best way to treat the beginners is to make them feel like they belong to the club. Be friendly, invite them to social functions, answer their questions patiently. Make sure that they clearly understand what is expected of them. Part of that is teaching in english (or french or whatever the local language is). Nobody is going to feel like they belong or understand what is expected of them if the teaching and side conversations are in a language they don't speak.

Consistently assign a competent senior instructor to them. If you switch instructors a lot they will get confused. People with 1 or 2 dan don't generally have enough experience to teach beginners. If your club has a sandan and a nidan, it is better to have the sandan teach the beginners and have the seniors lead by the nidan than the other way around.

In my experience, beginners tend to "stick" more if they start as a group. Also many clubs do not have enough instructors to deal with too many groups (the beginners that started 3 months ago, the guys that started a month ago, the fellow that showed up last week...) Therefore, only accept new students at certain times of the year and apply a strict cut-off date for new registrations. If they are serious, they will sign up on time or wait for the next class.

Regarding bogu - we have found that the best way to deal with who gets bogu is to make a formal "grading" out of it. Explain what is required. After it is over, explain why someone passed or didn't pass. Just watching the various people and seeing who passed will make it more clear to them what the requirements are. We don't assign kyu, but if you like you can do that as well.

Hope this was helpful
.

[KhawMengLee]

Ah, maybe I didn't explain that well enough. I am not saying that one won't learn from better players. But from people at his level or slightly above oneself one can spot openings to attack or defend and counter attack more easily.

When I do jigeiko with some of the yondans in my dojo I notice he will open up after he or I attacks. This is to say after for example he does a men attack to which i have countered or blocked he will leave his chudan open slightly. I notice this and will press on to make a men or kote attack. He has "allowed" this opening and if I don't react fast enough to it he will close up and attack.

Now, no doubt if all my peers were dan graders and I was the only kyu I would definately improve but the subtle improvement to mature would be lost.

Its hard to explain but by fighting people at my level or just above I find it easier to work on errors or press attacks they make.

eg. I can make a debana kote on someone at my level or maybe a few grades above. But to start with just a single cut on a yondan would be foolish because he would just counter with a suriage cut. But against people at our level it is a good way to learn basic attacks before moving to more complicated attacks.

What i am saying is that we need the core or middle element so that beginners can have a benchmark to know what level they are at, or what level they are expected to reach.

Motodachi is another aspect. I am still a novice but from what may peers teach me i follow on with the beginners. eg. motodachi is not just a hitting dummy. After a cut we turn around and follow and make sure there is maai and good zanshin. or for beginners we call out the target zones etc.

MENG

[saki_wooah]

Consistently assign a competent senior instructor to them. If you switch instructors a lot they will get confused. People with 1 or 2 dan don't generally have enough experience to teach beginners. If your club has a sandan and a nidan, it is better to have the sandan teach the beginners and have the seniors lead by the nidan than the other way around.

It is true that if you switch instructors who have not the same idea the beginners won't know what to do and will end up doing something wrong. But I disagree on the 1 or 2 dan thing. We have ikkyu people that teach the beginners sometimes. They don't teach them all the time though. I think they do a good job, because the beginners seem not to be too bad... When you teach, you learn at the same time. You see their different mistakes and that makes you think about yours. It is important to be able to explain your kendo to others with a speech. Not only practicing it. And when you are ikkyu or shodan, you are much closer to the beginners and know what they feel about kendo, because you still have your memory about what you felt back then. You are more able to help them. And the beginners are sometimes afraid or nervous when they fight a high dan instructor because they feel like they are too unexperienced to fight with them. When I started bogu, I felt it was fun practicing with kyu people because I felt less nervous. But with high dan people, I was more afraid of them because I thought I would be half dead after practice.

It is important to be friendly with them so they like to be learning kendo there. We also teach them what is our dojo motto: Happy kendo! It is very important because they will see what kind of dojo we are. If they are more social, we are a good place for them. If they prefer to have a strict teaching, well they can try another dojo where it is like that.

We were around 15 when we (as beginners) joined the club and 7-8 (i think) passed the grading test. After that, 4 of us continued practicing kendo at mcgill dojo. Because we are an university club, many people come and leave 1-2 years later. A lot of them are exchange students so they leave pretty fast. Some of the beginners keep contact with us and tell us how is practice where they are. It's a good sign because we created a sort of friendship together (that means that they liked our dojo).

[nodachi]

"Make sure that they clearly understand what is expected of them. Part of that is teaching in english (or french or whatever the local language is). Nobody is going to feel like they belong or understand what is expected of them if the teaching and side conversations are in a language they don't speak."

I think that the language is not so much of a problem. Of course that is because I am always only half understanding everyone verbally in my club right now, but I understand them completely from their eyes, posture, and expressions. It is important for a beginner to have some pressure so they can improve, but not so much that they feel overwhelmed.

Then they need encouragement. My sensei do try to say things in English to make it more clear, but their body language says a lot. If I did something wrong, my sensei will give me a wierd look and help correct me. If I do something wrong and he knows I know I did something wrong, he will give me a harsh or wierder look.

However, when there is something good, he makes sure to compliment. He will smile, or nod, or just look at you and make a simple grunt which means you did that one right. Sometimes he can watch and from a distance he will silently clap to let you know you did something good without a bursting round of applause. Other times he will watch, and won't say anything and go on to the next person watching carefully and that feels good because if something was wrong he would definitely say something.

He is always watching everyone and gives little expressions of praise every now and then. It lets us beginners know we are doing alright, and keeps us on track. They let us know that our progress is important to them so we train hard to show them it is important to us as well.

Wow, I am rambling! Sorry, I just feel lucky to have the sensei I do.

[Kuri]

I've had a great deal of experience in a university club, on both ends of the stick.

Generally when begineers start, it's good to get them started together. It build a team unity so to speak and people can gauge their progress against others. They also don't feel so bad when they can't get it together because there will be others just like them. It can be discouraging if everyone can do it and one person can't, but with a bit of support from the other beginners can really help. They can see that the goal is attainable.

I agree that a high ranking person should lead the beginners. But it takes a great deal of talent to teach a group of varying physical, mental and learning ability. Knowing how much information to give, when to give it and to whom to give it to is a skill that not everyone possess. It's a very difficult task in a group of more than 20. (There have been classes of more than 50 show up on the first day!). It also requires a lot of patience from both sides to see any real improvements. This is obviously a skill that must be learnt, and generally higher ranking people possess such skills.

As others have said, switching instructors can be counterproductive. This is true when they are learning basics, but I believe that a bit of variety can also stimulate the beginners. Once they're at a competent level, practicing uchi komi geiko on a different motodachi can give such variety.

There's a slow integration into the main group. It starts with a group warm up, then segragation. Once the beginners couse is finished, there is full integration into the class. But, this does not necessarily mean the use of bogu. That's slowly introduced. It builds a sense of belonging to the club from the beginning, not an us and them attitude. To solidify realationships, at the end of the beginner's course, a social celebration is held that lets everyone see the human side of kendo.

As for compliments. My sensei very rarely comlipents, one maybe two in a year, if I'm lucky :D (Normally there's lots of general feedback for all). If someone is constantly giving positive feedback such as compliments, in the end, it loses it's significance and comes to be expected. That's not to say that that feedback is not required, but constant back pating can instill a false sense of high achievement.

More to write, but I've got to go...

[Tato]

I'm still a beginner myself (I already wear bogu, but I'm doing kendo only since may), the way that we're treated in our dojo is quite the same as the one described abowe, with the adaptions needed for a non universtiy dojo on a big city.

The're not a clear beginners course because beginners tend to show up in a very irregular way.

We all stretch together, then one of the best dan present on the keiko takes them for learning, while the rest of the club goes to waza training.

At least once a week it's one of the top 3 dan in the club, who assures that the beginners are learning the right things. And at least once, all the beginners join the rest of us in order to practice different exercices and get some variety in their doings.

There're no special exams to go into bogu, the top dan tell the beginner when he should think about start wearing a bogu (usually the first club bogu that gets free and fits).

For the social part, the club has a reduced but intense social life usually during seminars, in or outside Madrid, but that's not the main objective of the club, and the fact is that most of us conduct our social life out of the club environement.

Rei

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by nodachi

I think that the language is not so much of a problem.
Well, you've already shown your commitment by being physically in Japan. You can't really expect to be taught in English. However here in North America I think English (or French in Quebec) should be used. Often kendo clubs become a sort of focal point of the Japanese community in the city and are used by parents to keep their kids tied to the culture and language. Those sorts of clubs are intimidating to non-Japanese who aren't Japanophiles but are just interested in kendo.

As far as having a senior instructor teach the beginners: I was talking about early pre-bogu, pre class integration days (those first 3 months). In our club in that period, the beginners are mostly practicing by themselves with one instructor supervising and teaching. We have nearly 30 beginners right now and it takes more than a couple years experience to properly teach that many people at a time.

Later on as they get integrated of course they practice with and thus get taught by everyone in the club. But they should be informed that no matter how many opinions they get, the right one is that of the head instructor. If ever they get confused its important that they have a single source of the gospel. It's only much later on in their career when they'll have to decide between what their sensei has been saying and what some other sensei tell them at seminars or whatever.

[nodachi]

These talks about having different people or sometimes club members teach the beginners brings a question to my head. How many sensei are there in your club? There are always two sensei in my club (somedays three) so one always teaches the beginners and the others teach the more advanced. No one gets confused because they don't change until you "level up" to the upper group. Pardon the video game talk. Then the problem is solved. Or do most clubs only have one sensei?

[alexpollijr]

Sometimes not even one

[saki_wooah]

we have only one

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by nodachi
Or do most clubs only have one sensei?
Unless you live in one of the kendo centres (Vancouver, TO, Seattle, SF, LA, NY) most clubs in North America have one or less qualified instructors. Quite a few make do with a nidan or so leading the club and occasional visits from a supervising sensei. Our club is fortunate to have as our head instructor a rokudan, plus a godan, a yondan, 3 sandan and a handful of other yudansha.

[cklin]

Like it has been said on this thread before, having a consistent set of instructors is important.

In my dojo, beginners show up every year and we try to have the teaching responsibilities split between two senior members of the club -- the two will usually reach an agreement as to how to explain things to the beginners before each keiko, so as not to confuse them. We also have a set curriculum from our sensei (who visits for a week every year) for the beginners.

As to some minimum rank one must have in order to teach, I'm not sure I agree with that. Of course, the person teaching needs some minimum level of understanding (say 5 yrs of kendo), but it's that person's ability to translate kendo techniques into (1) something that beginners can understand and (2) something that beginners can get excited about, that is most important.

As my sensei says, the most important thing in teaching beginners isn't to get them to strike menuchi correctly after 1 year, the important thing is to keep their fascination with kendo alive because kendo is, ultimately, jitoku (self-realization). No amount of spoon-feeding will help until you figure it out yourself.

[kendokamax]

I see, I kinda agree with the fact that beginners will get confused if more than one person teach them, but we usualy tell eachother what we will teach them for every class. So there is some structure in our teaching I guess.. but its fun we are experienting something new.

haha you guys are lucky, in my club the senpai actually teaching has been doing kendo for like 3 years. Other than her everyone else with some experience, have only 2 years of kendo in them. A very young club :) But in a few year our club will be very strong, i'm sure.!

and luckily we have one very good sensei .

[Tato]

If you consider Sensei only the 6 dan and up, no we don't have a sensei, but we have regular visits from senseis.

The top graders are both 4 dan, there are more than 10 people with lower other grades. And lots of kyu (like me).

But if things stay this way I figure that the club will end having two or three senseis by the end of the 2000s.

And because there's a Japan school in Madrid, at times there're a visiting sensei who comes to teach other subjects to Japaneese schoolboys and girls, and Kendo to everyone.

Rei

[cklin]

kendokamax:

>I see, I kinda agree with the fact that beginners will get
>confused if more than one person teach them, but we usualy
>tell eachother what we will teach them for every class. So there
>is some structure in our teaching I guess.. but its fun we are
>experienting something new.

I guess what I was point to was somewhat more in-depth than just disucssing *what* will be taught. We usually try to discuss *how* we're going to teach x, y, z.

For example, when teaching how to stand in chudan, we try to use a consistent set of pedagogical tools (e.g., "imagine eggs being held in your armpits", "remember the kensen has to point at your imaginary opponent's throat", "grip the shinai like you're shaking hands with someone, not holding a baseball bat").

Because each person has their own way of conveying these ideas, this will confuse beginners, so we try to standardize as much as we can.

Good luck!

[Confound]

Ares, very funny. May I suggest preparation H? Gets rid of those unsightly ... well, you know.

Atama, maybe they should have made you wait. getting into bogu fast works like putting a fan next to some epoxy, it makesit dry faster. Anyway, hope you're enjoying it.

David,
What is with you people and needing a beer with the boys? This creeps me out. Is kendou some kind of social activity or something? I am starting to have nightmares of going back to the western world and being slapped with 'let's be friends' kendou. This is too scary to contemplate. I agree with debts to your seniors, and an obligation to treat your kohai with respect (that's what will teach your kohai to treat you with respect), however, happy, shiny kendou is not my thing. I guess it's still unfashionable to be majime.

"Nobody is going to feel like they belong or understand what is expected of them if the teaching and side conversations are in a language they don't speak."
What, does this mean you speak ENGLISH, or Frenc, or something not Japanese? That's sacrilege. Well, teaching in languages other than Japanese is fine, but I can't imagine starting a match with 'GO!' or 'Sic'em!' (Though it does make me giggle.)

Nodachi, calm down on the puppy love, there kiddo.

In our dojo, the beginners practice off in anotehr part of the dojo during kihon waza. They do suburi, and kirikaeshi with eachother. During jigeiko and keiko we rotate, and there is often one person who is 'resting' because there is usually an odd number of people. That person does men-uchi and kirikaeshi with the beginners.

We have only three beginners at this time, all of whom are women, Japanese women. Two are mothers, one has small children. Before they got into bogu a few weeks ago, their practice was exactly the same, only they did it without bogu. I'm looking forward to the time when they'll start keiko, because I might be permitted to practice with them then. (Right now, as the most inexperienced member, I don't help them.)

c

[JSchmidt]

"This is too scary to contemplate."

Yeah..I think we all realise that you are unable to interact with people in nice, friendly manner.

Jakob

P.S. The girls usually come to the pub as well.

[David J]

Originally posted by Confound

David,
What is with you people and needing a beer with the boys? This creeps me out. Is kendou some kind of social activity or something? I am starting to have nightmares of going back to the western world and being slapped with 'let's be friends' kendou. This is too scary to contemplate.

Fascinating assumption, especially from you. Plenty of women come up the pub, and of course, not everyone drinks beer or even alcohol. Social contact creeps you out? Really? I'm sure if you really want to be distant and unpopular when you head back west then you can.

Is kendo social? Well, err, Duh, its not exactly a solo activity is it? How incomprehsibly scary that having spent two hours fighting with worthy opponents that I might want to have a quick chat and relax with them - its just so bizarre!

I'm sure you're only posting these comments to a) wind us up and b) seem cool. And more fool me/us for jumping every time ;)

<rei>

Dave

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
What is with you people and needing a beer with the boys? This creeps me out. Is kendou some kind of social activity or something?
As a matter of fact, yes it is. For many Japanese ex-pats the local kendo club is part of their social interaction and connection back home. Many close friendships are started through kendo clubs, especially amongst people of Japanese heritage who often start together as little kids. I have made many friends both in my club and in clubs that I visit - the Canadian prairie clubs are wide-spread but a fairly tight-knit bunch. Although practice should be serious, nothing wrong with going for beers afterward.

I am starting to have nightmares of going back to the western world and being slapped with 'let's be friends' kendou.
Many Japanese people who were put off by extraordinarily harsh practices and extreme pressure to do well in shiai are pleasantly surprised to find that in a North American dojo they can just enjoy playing kendo and making friends. And as it's the rare Japanese kendoka who doesn't drink like a fish, having a beer with your kendo friends after practice is a natural. However if you'd prefer to just show up, grunt "hai" whenever you're addressed and leave quickly after practice, we have people who do that too.

Well, teaching in languages other than Japanese is fine, but I can't imagine starting a match with 'GO!' or 'Sic'em!' (Though it does make me giggle.)
All terminology is still Japanese. But (and I'm fairly evangelistic on this point) if kendo is to grow outside of Japan, it has to appeal to non-Japanese (and not just to Japanese wannabes). Primary to this is teaching in the lingua franca.

[2muchryt]

I had a sempai in my club. He was an amazing kenshi.
he went back to japan where he lives.
he trained really hard. he has been training all his life.
he was very selfless. very polite. super intelligent (a published scientist),
and though he fought every single great kenshi from southern cal, i never
saw him lose.
i asked him how should we treat begginers.
he said
"just come to practice for one year, then we will learn your name"
i think he was kind of hard core.

[Sanjuro]

Well...I can sort of relate to that bit about learning names.

Before you get your bogu at my dojo, the senseis don't know your name because you didn't have a name tag. Even when they corrected your posture or gave you some one-on-one help, they didn't ask for your name (that didn't mean they weren't nice, though) Then, when you recieved your bogu (after a year or so, like 2muchryt said in the previous post), they'd address you by your name when they wanted to do a demonstration with you or give you some pointers. I have to admit, it did feel a bit better for them to address you by name rather than "you, there". :D My personal theory on this is because if you stuck around long enough to get bogu, they showed you a bit more respect than they would to the masses of new students that are always present at my dojo (and fall out at a prodigious rate, only to be replaced just as fast)

[nodachi]

I hear the whole name forgetting thing. After 4 months some of my sensei forget my name. I do find it funny though when they call me Gaijin-san.

[Dave Fowler]

Consistently assign a competent senior instructor to them. If you switch instructors a lot they will get confused. People with 1 or 2 dan don't generally have enough experience to teach beginners. If your club has a sandan and a nidan, it is better to have the sandan teach the beginners and have the seniors lead by the nidan than the other way around.
.So in my case should I be teaching the beginners, and leaving the shodan's and kyu's to play by themselves? Doesn't that make it even that much harder for me to prepare for the next level of dan?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yes. See PM for more detail, Dave.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

What is with you people and needing a beer with the boys? This creeps me out. Is kendou some kind of social activity or something? The way it was explained to me was that after spending all day in a tournament trying to "kill" each other, it was kind of traditional to do something social with your fellow kenshi to show it wasn't personal, and that the same thing went for practice in your own dojo to a smaller extent. I'm in North America, could be different where you're at.

[Bleda]

I beat the beginners with a large stinky trout.

[cBEx]

Hi all,

I realize this is an old thread, however I read almost all replies posted and learned quite a few interesting things regarding Kendo dojos. I have been practicing martial- arts (karate and Kung- Fu) on and off for over 15 years, but I am new at Kendo, in deed I will start it next Tuesday and I am thrilled! I am going to practice at the McGill Kendo Club. I visited several dojos and chose this one because of the friendly atmosphere. It is not intimidating! God knows that after 15 years of practice, it takes lots of humility to start something new and be a beginner again!

I must agree that one efficient way to keep new students is to make them feel that they belong to the dojo and that they are important to the club, not a nuisance or a liability! As a senior student in Kung- Fu, I always make sure that I introduce myself to new students and have a quick chat about their past martial experience and ambition.

Thanks KendoMax for posting that thread and looking forward at training with you!

[kendokamax]

thanks for chosing our club and see you on tuesday !!

did you already register to the class?

[cBEx]

Hey Kendokamax, actually 2 of my friends and I are going to register tonight! Just hopefull that the class is not full! Just got back from vacation so I couldn't do it before. Plus McGill athletics did take registration before the 3rd week of August! A little late for my taste as I am a very organized person! I came in June to watch a prectice and I would have registered at that moment if it were possible!!!

[cBEx]

Hey Kendokamax! So my 2 friends and I are now officaily registered! We will be there Tuesday! Now it is up to you guys to make sure we stay ! LOL! :-) BTW my name is Patrick!

Cheers!

[m_french]

How do you treat beginers in your club?


We generally ignore them for about 4 months and then hit them with bamboo sticks.....why do you ask?

[Hai_hai]

How do you treat beginers in your club?

In my club, beginners are very important to us...
Degredation. Verbal abuse. Blatant violations of the Geneva convention.
Then, we teach footwork.

[YoonGyungSshi]

ugh.. i know the guy who was trying to help me out probably wasnt trying to be all... gbafndfagbjasdf
but dang.. i started going to this dojang near where i live and i took KUMDO at korea for like 2 weeks (5days/week, 1hr30min... it was freaking cheap too..ehhe)
but the guy acted like i knew NOTHING.. acting kinda like a smartass. (i gues he didnt know i did it b4)
BUT bwahaha.. when we had to do.. iono what you call it in japanese? when you kinda jump forward and backward and do men really fast..? well, he couldnt do that.. but i could do it. HAH...AHHAHA... that felt good. i found out he was a beginner at the dojo... :p


im such a kid.. -___________-''
i juss dont like it when pple try to act all smart in front of me and make me feel stupid.. i know sometimes that cant be helped at times, but still.. (hah)

[Hai_hai]

BUT bwahaha.. when we had to do.. iono what you call it in japanese? when you kinda jump forward and backward and do men really fast..? well, he couldnt do that.. but i could do it. HAH...AHHAHA... that felt good. i found out he was a beginner at the dojo... :p
In Japanese, it's called haya-suburi.

First, both of you are beginners if neither of you are in armor.

Second, he probably wasn't acting like you knew nothing. He assumed you knew nothing because it was your first time in the club and you didn't tell him you studied it before. It is the responsibility of those who are more senior to help others. If he knew you studied it already, then he would be acting. It would have been useful to tell him you already studied kumdo for a certain period of time.

[Old Warrior]

Believe it or not, the only ones that get one on one instruction from the Grandmaster (7th Dan) are the beginners. He makes a concerted effort to get everyone started including teaching the proper etiquette, how to bow etc. Of course, as a beginner you are too dumb to appreciate the attention, but you will remember it later.

[senki-kendo-jos]

Grandmaster?!?!? I just call my sensei "your highness"! My Japanese sensei, now that's different... bow, scrape, kiss his feet, fold his hakama, wash his shirts, wash his car, mend his socks, make him tea... just generally be a dogsbody and a pleb!

As for the beginners, I try snarling and looking scary, not too easy for me as i'm 5ft 5in girlie who usually has her hair in pigtails!! Then as soon as theyre in bogu I whackem hard and make em cry, hee hee hee!

[DanDan]

Second, he probably wasn't acting like you knew nothing. He assumed you knew nothing because it was your first time in the club and you didn't tell him you studied it before. It is the responsibility of those who are more senior to help others. If he knew you studied it already, then he would be acting. It would have been useful to tell him you already studied kumdo for a certain period of time.but wouldn't you assume that someone that wears hakama and gi had at least a little experience in kendo/kumdo?

[amanharan]

not necessarily...they could have had a bit of experience in aikido and just gotten the wrong gi

[Hai_hai]

but wouldn't you assume that someone that wears hakama and gi had at least a little experience in kendo/kumdo?
The person never stated whether he wore a uniform or not. Yes, I would assume a person who is wearing a uniform has had been trained already.

[Lloromannic]

I would assume a person who is wearing a uniform has had been trained already.
Or a RBSO? :wink:

[cBEx]

Question for you Kendokamax! I have been practicing with you guys since the beginning of the semester. I love Kendo, but I most admit that I am rather irritated by the number of beginners in the dojo! Is it normal that there is such a big number of newbees or is it a frenzy created by movies such as Kill Bill/ The last Samurai?

Thanks!

[Simon R]

I am still a very early beginner in Kendo, and I am treated relatively nicely at my dojo. The only time I remember feeling attacked was the first time I did mokuso and I didn't really know what was going on and I was scolded by an older member. But other than that it's pretty friendly there.

[kendokamax]

Question for you Kendokamax! I have been practicing with you guys since the beginning of the semester. I love Kendo, but I most admit that I am rather irritated by the number of beginners in the dojo! Is it normal that there is such a big number of newbees or is it a frenzy created by movies such as Kill Bill/ The last Samurai?

Thanks!

I dunno, there is always a lot of beginners at the beginning of the semester but this time we have so many people (100 members).. well don't worry too much about it, after a few weeks there should be less and less people coming.

From your current generation there might be only 10 people still practicing kendo next year.. and in 2 years less than 5 will come regulary...but you never know. From my generation we are about 7 still practicing regulary and we will all go for our nidan this coming December.

[m_french]

the only ones that get one on one instruction from the Grandmaster
The Grand Master is cool, but i always prefered Bootsie he could really lay down the Rifs.

[cBEx]

I dunno, there is always a lot of beginners at the beginning of the semester but this time we have so many people (100 members).. well don't worry too much about it, after a few weeks there should be less and less people coming.

From your current generation there might be only 10 people still practicing kendo next year.. and in 2 years less than 5 will come regulary...but you never know. From my generation we are about 7 still practicing regulary and we will all go for our nidan this coming December.
Thanks for your insight! I am very patient, it is just that I was overwhelmed by the amount of people. I have always trained in dojos were a class of 20 was a big class. In my karate class we are never more that 7 or 8! So imagine my surpise when I saw +/- 100 beginers on top of the bogu kendoka! Kind of a cultural shock! :-)

By the way good luck for your nidan grading! Where will it be held at? Toronto? JCCC?

[kendokamax]

yup JCCC in Toronto

but before that we have a tournament in TO in a month

[cBEx]

yup JCCC in Toronto

but before that we have a tournament in TO in a month
I have not doubt that you have much fun and much success!

[cBEx]

I think this is not too much off topic, so I do not see the relevance of starting a new thread. I am new to kendo, but have almost 15 years of matial training and regarding the etiquette some things are constant all over matial- arts. For exemple, not to complain about the amount of repetitions, not complain about being tired, not showing you are tired... You get the point!

Now, a lot for beginners in my dojo will do such a thing as to complain, but never loudly enough so the sensei or senior students leading the class would hear them! Now here is my question: should I gently inform these students that it is inappropriate to complain that they are tired? Plus when the leader of the class asks if we are tired, lots of students didn't understand yet that if they answer yes, we will do much more! Not to say that doing more haya suburi is bad! I love pushing myself to my limits! Should I discreetly explain to these guys how things work in a dojo or should I mind my own business! Or perhaps the hard way works better, thus wack them with my shinai when they complain! :wink:

Thanks for your insights!

[Martin (Wakey)]

As for the beginners, I try snarling and looking scary, not too easy for me as i'm 5ft 5in girlie who usually has her hair in pigtails!! Then as soon as theyre in bogu I whackem hard and make em cry, hee hee hee!
I can vouch for the looking scary part. You put me off when you frown and don't blink!

As for the make em cry bit. I'll guess I'll find out sooner rather than later. Sensei has offered me some club bogu.

Is it good Kendo to turn tail and run?

[kendokamax]

I think this is not too much off topic, so I do not see the relevance of starting a new thread. I am new to kendo, but have almost 15 years of matial training and regarding the etiquette some things are constant all over matial- arts. For exemple, not to complain about the amount of repetitions, not complain about being tired, not showing you are tired... You get the point!

Thanks for your insights!

1. since you guys are beginners we don't except too much etiquette.
As long as people don't start running everywhere and are listening to what we are saying it's fine.

When you will get to Bogu thought, we except you to become more serious about kendo. Like : not stoping for no reason during practice etc..and showing up regulary.

oh and please don't try to show that you know better than your other beginner friends. Maybe you do, but it's not a good thing to show it now. However, you could explain what you think to them after the class, but not during it.

I hope you enjoy our very amateur kendo teaching :s

[m_french]

I can vouch for the looking scary part. You put me off when you frown and don't blink!

As for the make em cry bit. I'll guess I'll find out sooner rather than later. Sensei has offered me some club bogu.

Is it good Kendo to turn tail and run?
so long as you stay in the Court!!!

[cBEx]

1. since you guys are beginners we don't except too much etiquette.
As long as people don't start running everywhere and are listening to what we are saying it's fine.

When you will get to Bogu thought, we except you to become more serious about kendo. Like : not stoping for no reason during practice etc..and showing up regulary.

oh and please don't try to show that you know better than your other beginner friends. Maybe you do, but it's not a good thing to show it now. However, you could explain what you think to them after the class, but not during it.

I hope you enjoy our very amateur kendo teaching :s
Kendokamax, I think I pissed you off and I apologize, it was not my intention at all!
:-( Perhaps I didn't articulate myself in a proper manner! :s I do enjoy your Kendo teaching and I never said it is amateur! I hope that nothing in my comments made you think that I would imply that your teaching is amateur. If I was not happy about it, I would simply shut the **** up and go to another dojo. I would not bother anyone with it! The very first reason why I posted my question is that I didn't want to show other beginners that I know better, because I do not, I am new too! I thought that it was not my place to tell them to shut- up and train, this is why I am seeking the opinion of more experimented people in kendo! I am afraid you got the wrong impression of me, I am very humble and want in no way to be inappropriate or worse to be a show-off!

The second reason why I posted my question is that I am very respectful and grateful of my seniors, like you, taking time from their own training time to teach us! If you heard the comments I hear during training, I am sure you would get very mad! I thought that this kind of attitude was not only totally inappropriate in a dojo, it is flattly a lack of respect no matter the place or context. It got me pretty angry!

Thanks for your input, from now on, I will mind my own business, train as hard and as good as I can and ignore people's comments! Lesson learned! Jesus now it sounds like I am sucking- up! Over, I am not posting aything serious on this board again! LOL!

[kendokamax]

aaah I'm sorry I didnt mean to imply that you said such things (hum ..)

I just say that our teaching IS amateur and I hope you still can get the best out of it. I mean except for sensei, we don't always really know what we are talking about and don't really have a solid guideline (even if we have one).
Some people might teach things a bit differently and that might be confusing for you at the beginning.

the most important thing we try to do for the beginner class is to make it enjoyable for the new people.

and please continue to post your opinion!

[cBEx]

aaah I'm sorry I didnt mean to imply that you said such things (hum ..)

I just say that our teaching IS amateur and I hope you still can get the best out of it. I mean except for sensei, we don't always really know what we are talking about and don't really have a solid guideline (even if we have one).
Some people might teach things a bit differently and that might be confusing for you at the beginning.

the most important thing we try to do for the beginner class is to make it enjoyable for the new people.

and please continue to post your opinion!
I guess we had a communication problem! C'est parfois ce qui arrive quand on communique dans une langue seconde! ;-) Well for me the word amateur as a negative spin to it! I guess I should have decoded amateur as "we do not have 40 years of experience in teaching kendo"!

Again, I do not mean to suck- up, but I can tell you that I was never disappointed by any of seniors teaching us! Obviously everybody as a different perspective and it is normal that you might have different ways of seing or expressing a concept or technique! After all, in martial- arts there is the word ART! This makes having several teachers interesting, we get to see things from different angles!

Yup, I enjoy the classes, there is a lot of humour and spirit and it is very inspiring when everybody kiais together! I love the haya suburi, gets the stress out loking nothing else!

[Wifenmummy]

*whoah* i was almost convinced that we were in the same kendo group for awhile... my kendo group is at a uni, maybe 4-7 of us turn up to practice... and 2 are new me and my hubby... when we first started we learnt how to walk and then men cuts and then more walking;.. lol! doing laps of walking and men cuts is good... well u gotta learn somehow.. weve been treated pretty good.. what i dont like at our kendo nights is being taught 10 different things *my head feels like it will implode!* one night we were taught 1,2,4,5,6 kata and by the time we got to the end i couldnt remember any!
i think if ur teaching u should ask if the person wants to continue to learn more or keep at what they are learning..

[DanDan]

us beginners...we clean the floor after practice...it's actually pretty fun but i wouldn't do it for fun...

[Wifenmummy]

really? suppose thats normal in most dojos and places?