How's your ki?

[nodachi]

Questions about Ki...

Have you experienced feeling your Ki yet?
What does it feel like?
How long did it take for you to start working with it?
Or any random comments on Ki.

I have done Tai Chi for sometime so I do believe in Chi/Ki and understand to some extend what Chi is like. I am curious if Kendo Ki is the same, feels different, is applied differently, etc etc...

Any and all comments are appreciated.

[kendokamax]

I will tell you about ki when I'm 8th dan (..and I dont think thats really possible).

Maybe I am wrong but isn't ki just being able to make a contraction of your abdomen (hara ?) so your strike be strong enough explosion of energy....I have no idea , my kendo sucks.

[Atama]

I have had some dealing in Ki (not to any great extent) in akido .....its like a totally relaxation with focus, its hard for someone of my knowlege to describe, but when you use it correctly in kendo you'll be able to do suburi forever...it also gives you the sence of focus in your bout, I find being totally relaxed in a bout improves my kendo 100%.

I alway think of ki like momentum ....for myself i can't lift a suburi boken with one hand, however if i begin to swing lightly using my tandum it quite easily becomes a full swing with no muscle or strength needed.

You should check out a book by Koichi Tohei called 'ki in daily life' it talks about ki extensivley

[JSchmidt]

I think Atama got it right..Ki is what we in the west call 'focus'. (or vice-versa). Notice how many modern athletes who use eastern style meditation and relaxation techniques to improve their focus?.

Jakob

[David J]

I've always taken "Ki" to be the same as "Chi", in which case its something quite different to focus or whatever, more like "life-force" or summat (and something westerners dont generally buy into)

Try this that I just found....

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1999/feb99/ene.html

(not saying I agree or disagree here....I'm officially undecided ;))

<rei>

Dave

[stinkyKote]

I think I might have felt my ki come out one time, but that could have just been gas- :D

[etherknot]

Originally posted by stinkyKote
I think I might have felt my ki come out one time, but that could have just been gas- :D

Either way, really good kiai or gas will have your opponed scared enough to get out of the way quickly! :D

[nodachi]

I shall have to remember to watch out for "ki gas".

: )

David, thanks for the article. It puts another question into my head. Since the most common way to develop Ki/Chi is to meditate, why are Kendo meditations so short? Or is development of Ki not as much of a focus?

Please enlighten me.

:)

[munenmuso]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David J
[B]I've always taken "Ki" to be the same as "Chi", in which case its something quite different to focus or whatever, more like "life-force" or summat (and something westerners dont generally buy into)

I concur with David. The one that he mentioned is the most popular definition around here, "ki" or "chi" in chinese is even used in the method of what they call here as holistic healing. The art of "quigong" most particularly and other martial arts applies this "phenomena" alot and is vital to grasp the essence of its methods.

[olaf]

Originally posted by munenmuso
The art of "quigong" most particularly and other martial arts applies this "phenomena" alot and is vital to grasp the essence of its methods. [/B]
I believe you mean qi gong. :)

Speaking of qi, ki, etc. anyone have thoughts on why kiai is named such? Literally translated, the kanji mean qi/chi (essence, etc.) and to combine. What is kiai "combining"?

Please discuss...

[Nishi]

I study aikido and have been taught that chi and ki are very different. For anybody interested in ki(without studying aikido daily), there is a helpful book by Koichi Tohei (Aikido 10thdan under Morihei Ueshiba) "Book of ki" has great definitions and has helped my kendo a great deal. I had an experience once when i was training, i was very very relaxed, almost euphoric, my lower belly became very warm, everything went very quite in the dojo, and when my oppoent moved ,i cut him. Strange hu! I train to regain this feeling every class....i feel this state was attained thru Koichi Tohei's 4 principals of ki: 1-Keep your mind in your lower belly. 2-Relax completley. 3-Keep weight underside. 4-Extend ki. Achieve one of these principals and you achieve them all...However, Koichi Tohei goes into great detail regarding these principles. Most aikido training will promote this type of KI develpoment...but thats just my path....i hope this helps!!

[KATSUJIN]

i am not sure...but i think kiai means synergy rite? ki...inner energy or strength...ai...harmony...is it rite?? i think Nishi can answer this....

[KATSUJIN]

wat i actually meant was synchronised energy or synergy......which i think also means energy in harmony.....

[Nishi]

Ki meaning power or internal power, or in some dojo's, universal power (which would make it both internal and external...) and Ai meaning to harmonize, or to co-ordinate with somthing. I imagine it to be like 2 musical notes, you can hear when they are not in tune, its almost unpleasent..this i feel represents "Ai".When you are living a bad lifestyle you can also feel this unpleasant vibe as well (my opinion).Ki is not so easy to define, Tohei sensei defines it as the power of the universal, this is where you get the term Aiki(do),(Kiai in reverse).In martial arts we "Kiai" this i believe should harmonize us with true power.I also believe that we must harmonize with "KI" by relaxing completely(one of the four principles of "KI"),and that means mentally as well as physically.You will know without a doubt when you harmonize yourself with Ki..But thats just my path...i hope this helps.

[ShÖgun]

I believe in Ki totally without a doubt. In competion or in real life situations, I just relax and I can feel it in my body, sometimes I am surpise at what i can do.

[Nishi]

I can relate to this as well ShOgun. The first time i felt the "relaxing charge of energy" i became a little "disorientated", but i caught my sensei's kote three times before i could come to grips with the new feeling. And your right, you do suprise yourself! I feel that when you are this relaxed, there is not alot of un-nessesary thoughts in your head and the thinking is clearer.....and this is just one benifit

[Haowen]

Based on what Nishi said, studying aikido will help one attain the feeling of ki. I assume it is because it has a stronger internal component than kendo. I am wondering what exactly this internal component is and how those of us who don't know aikido can apply its principles during kendo practice.

I am also a beginner in taichi and I've noticed (slightly) the standard symptoms of ki flow during practice - tingling fingers, weightless arms, that feeling of warmth and slowness and focus. I have no idea why moving one's body in a set kata would generate ki flow, or why it's so much easier to achieve/feel in taichi than kendo. Does anyone have any insights?

Then again, I may just be getting high off the fumes from the gas heater downstairs. Mmmmmm! :D

[nodachi]

I do know that to some extent, learning to feel ki in the tai chi kinda way starts with a mental visualization of circulating the energy through your body or in particular ways. Then as time goes by, that visualization of circulating your ki and the kata, which reinforce those mental visualizations with all those circular motions and the meditative aspect to it, really help to improve your feeling of ki for real and not just in your head.

I assume that it is harder to achieve in kendo because we are preoccupied with hitting someone rather than focussing on yourself and your empty mind or whatever inner chi thoughts you use.

Hope this makes sense. This is at least how it worked for me. It's much harder for me to feel ki through kendo because I am so focused on other things and since i am a beginner.

[Nishi]

I think Nodachi made a strong point...in kendo we are too focused on other things other than ki, and in the western world we still believe that strength and force win the fight, unfortunatley, all these things work against ki, but the natural mind wants to be relaxed and still. I feel that study in a ki/chi based art will benifit your kendo, even if your just reading about it,it all helps.I believe in studying the kamae and the cuts and seme as well as ki, this investment, i hope ,will make me a strong kendoka in the decades to come. I believe in kendo, when your sensei says "relax"...i believe he/she is refering to the door that leads to ki....Does anybody have any favorite habits they use to relax?....Or even better, is there anything anybody can recommend that helps ki flow before and during kendo????

[nodachi]

I would think that seiza helps to some extent, but it is always too short at my club. Seiza lasts about 20 seconds. Is this the same in other peoples dojos and clubs?

Someone mentioned in another thread awhile back that if you want to meditate do it at home, but when at the dojo it is kendo time. I do agree that a long seiza is not great, but ours is definitely too short, at least for my tastes.

[ben]

Interesting discussion guys...

I believe in the existence of ki and I also agree that in kendo it is a little bit neglected when compared with aikido. Kendo does has a slightly different focus to aikido however. We are trying to totally destroy our opponent, and so in kendo the focus is external, dynamic, explosive. Aikido is about de-escalating violence and bringing everything back to a state of harmony, hence no attacking moves and the slow, relaxed feeling of flow like taichi.

Interestingly this is partly because most schools of aikido today are based on Ueshiba sensei's post-war teaching when he was quite an old man. Aikido therefore tends to look like something an old man would invent: slow, relaxed and requiring little muscle power.

OTOH, by all accounts Ueshiba sensei's training before the war was quite brutal, powerful and aggressive - typical of a younger man. There was obviously "ki" present, but in a different form.

I think if you are young, it is good to use a lot of muscle-power, aggression and so on in your kendo. Then as you get older, your kendo naturally slows down and becomes more... meditative (?). It's a waste of your natural attributes to do kendo like an old man when you're in your twenties. When you're sixty you won't have a choice about how your body moves! This is why we need more instruction about ki in kendo, and about the different ways it can manifest.

Nodachi - you should look out for a lay Zen group or temple in your area. They are not hard to find and you don't have to become a monk! Then you could practice longer periods of meditation in a group setting, which is easier than trying to do it on your own at first.

One more thing in this rave: I was taught a special kind of breathing in Japan for mokuso, one that is used for bringing up ki before you start training. It comes from the Shinto misogi (purification) ritual. Breathe in strongly through your nose and fill your lungs. -..- Hold your breath for several seconds. When you feel the urge to let the breath out, push it down into your stomach, pushing your belly out. >..< Hold for several more seconds before before breathing back out through your nose. ^..^

Cold showers (or cold-hot-cold-hot) are also really good for stimulating ki flow.
:)
b

[Tato]

Cold showers stimulate everything! :p

More seriously, I'm not sure if ki does exsit or not, I'm sure that correct breath technics can help in concentration and focalisation, a visiting sensei told us to use the following sequence:

Breath trough your nouse, counting two, expell trough your mouth counting eigth, pussing with your abdomen, and if you can control it, try to start expeling the air from the lower portions of your lungs. Repeat.

I also use similar breathing secuences when I'm trying to recover breath (usually between two combats) or when I need to resist for a long time (as when I did 8 to 10 km running). I discovered that those kind of exercies also helped to reduce my heartbeat.

Maybe with practice I will be able to have a better idea of what ki is. Will post something in 10 or 20 years.

Rei

[Nishi]

There are many ancient sayings in kendo "the sword is the mind" etc etc...When you look at Ki or the energy of humans, there are also many ancient sayings, and i believe the point us in the correct direction.."Ki travels with the mind", this is interesting because it reinforces Nodachi's point(visualization), and hints that if you can not beleive in your own ki, then it can not correctly exist within you.Another concept we use in kendo is the "ki-ai" or harmony with ki, or , co-ordinating ourselves with power. (im going to peer deeply here), The Kiai is vaguely based on three things..."ki"..."Sound" and "Air"...If we assume that the sound we make when we kiai is a by-product, and we also assume that ki is unharnessed energy within all living things, then what are we to assume about air?."All living things have ki".I believe this reinforces what Tato has to say about breathing.There is a definate science here, but kendo schools are scattered, and if you attend 10 schools you will hear 10 different methods, where tai-chi and aikido are fixed, and taught in a fixed manner, kendo is a solitary path, although you may belong to a great dojo with wonderful freinds, ultimately you can only add to your kendo what you understand...

[Nishi]

I am interested....does anybody study Chi-kung (qi-gong)..or the harder studeis of Ki/Chi....and also, i think if we look at what is common amongst all our training we can put together a pretty accurate map for KI development.

[Haowen]

Hi Nishi,

Yes, I would also be very interested in learning from the more experienced people who practice internal martial arts.

As a beginner in taichi, I can tentatively venture that:

The point of "ki travels with the mind" is exactly right. A mantra in taichi is "taichi uses the mind's intention instead of physical strength". "Mind's intention" is my (poor) translation of the chinese yi which is intent/belief. This is why in many of the actions in taichi solo kata the practitioner is looking at their own fingertips rather than trying to get enzan no metsuke. I think it is to lead one's ki towards the extremities to get smooth ki flow.

For ki flow tips, I'd say the most important thing (at my level) is to relax. Just the slightest bit of unnecessary tension at the shoulders is enough to block ki flow down the arm.

Other than that, I don't really know anything :) At my level it is best to just practice one step at a time without cluttering my head with too much theory :)

[Nishi]

I think we can all agree on two things for our list so far......1- Ki follows the mind. 2- Relax completeley....Haowen made a strong point when discussing the gaze in tai-chi, this is known as extending ki in aikido and enzan no metsuke in kendo, and i believe Haowen is correct, the gaze does extend the Ki and free's the flow of ki throughout the body.....is this one for our list Haowen?

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by nodachi
Questions about Ki...

Have you experienced feeling your Ki yet?
What does it feel like?
How long did it take for you to start working with it?
Or any random comments on Ki.

I have done Tai Chi for sometime so I do believe in Chi/Ki and understand to some extend what Chi is like. I am curious if Kendo Ki is the same, feels different, is applied differently, etc etc...

Any and all comments are appreciated.

Student: "Sensei willl you please teach me about Zen?
Sensei: "Yes"

[Paburo]

whoever said ki and chi are diff things is wrong.

chi is just the chinese reading, and ki the korean/japanese one for the same character: ‹C

(i hope this forum thing supports japanese so u can all see it)

jaa.

[Nishi]

The kanji for "ki" may read the same, but the debate over its understanding is still going on today. This is why we have so many divisions in the martial arts..We all see things differently!! To say that "ki" is this or that, or even the same as "chi" simply because they look the same on paper is a bold comment, i know some who have studied the internal arts for 30 years and still say they are unsure. I have always been taught that "ki" is a japanese concept different from "chi", and further more, it is still different to each individual...but i can only comment on low level ki development in the japanese studies from "my point of view". In this forum, so far, we have drawn some very strong similarities(sp??) between "ki" and "chi" from students of both chinese and japanese martial arts and it has all helped my kendo and my understanding of "ki".

[mingshi]

You guys mentioned a few Kanji terms... See my attached file for Kanji of Ki, Chi and Qi...

Difficulties of explaining Chinese character is that, you've to put intonations together with the words. Otherwise it'll go too confusing.

In my file, the Ki in Kiai is in the simplified Japanese Kanji form. Qi in Qi Gong is in the Traditional Chinese form. They are the same character. But Chi in Taichi is a totally different character (meaning extreme/utmost point).

Concept of Ki is generally... the same in Chinese and Japanese Martial Arts. There are a lot of people in Hong Kong I know who practice both kinds of MA, and I don't think they'll say it's different. It's up to you to add more Yamatodamashi to the Ki in Budo.

[Nishi]

Im starting t see chi/ki/qi like cars....they are similar in principal and function, but very different, when it comes to region...(my deep thought for the day.. :-)

[Nishi]

Besides suburi, is anybody doing any other form of warm-up/stretching to help stimulate Ki before keiko?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I dunno about ki, but we do an exercise for kiai. With feet wide apart, raise your shinai above your head (45 degrees back, proper jodan kamae) and breath in. The in-breath should end when the shinai gets to the top. Make a big round cut nearly to the floor - it should feel like throwing the shinai away. At the same time drop your body down as if you were doing squats. Keep your back straight and let your heels come up. At the end of the cut your knees should be splayed like sonkyo and your thighs should be at about a 45 degree angle with the floor (not too deep or you risk knee injury). Kiai is the "eh" sound like in kote, so this is a Canadian exercise :). Don't use up all your breath. The outbreath ends at the bottom of the cut - stop moving, cutting and breathing at the same time.

Do 10 of these then follow up with 3 normal shinkokyu.

This is an especially good exercise for beginners who are not being very loud with their counting or whatever. The breathing and movement forces a more correct kiai, and plus when you tell them this is "kiai exercise" everyone gets the point that they're supposed to be loud.

[Nishi]

During keiko last week, my muscles where a bit tender from the previous class, so i stretched long and deep before class (on top of our regular stretch), and i felt fine. However, during jugeiko, i was twice as relaxed as usual.
This was followed by the usual, wieghtless shinai, warm lower belly, ability to see clearly etc etc.
Just thought i'd share my little ki development story.

[LPfan483]

I don't know if this is in any way related to "ki" but, i bought these tapes to teach you morse code and it taught you how to trance and use your subconcius (sp?) to learn. i used this technique in a fight and where i would normally be slow i could predict my opponents moves get out of the way and counter, faster than he could react!@ jus thought i share this info.

[Marine_Boy]

mY KI IS A bIT RUNNY

[Stimpson J. Cat]

I don't know if this is in any way related to "ki" but, i bought these tapes to teach you morse code and it taught you how to trance and use your subconcius (sp?) to learn. i used this technique in a fight and where i would normally be slow i could predict my opponents moves get out of the way and counter, faster than he could react!@ jus thought i share this info.
Um - where can I get some of those tapes? Ki, Chi or something else, I have been in what I think is a similar trance like state (where everything moves slow, and you can see everything around you and react without effort) for brief moments, usually doing something other than kendo - actually, I think last time was in the split second before a car accident - but if there is a way to learn to enter that state at will, I think it would help tremendously, even if I have to learn Morse code along the way!

[Ginsbork]

Kiseme or kizeme?

[Kirin]

Kiseme or kizeme?

both fine
.....kizeme maybe more common.

[Kenshin Axel]

I believe in Ki also.
I don't feel all this spiritual stuff, I just sorta focus, and I just get pumped, I don't know if this is Ki, but when it does happen I am much better.

Heres a random story, about Kiai:

I was at Ju Jitsu, and Sensei was making us practise our Kiai.
At one point of the lesson, I yelled out, doing Kiai, and it sounded like :
" Shiiiiiyaaaa"
It almost sounded like $hit, and Sensei almost sent me off the mat, until I explained and he was most amused. :smiley:

[tapioka]

"気" (ki) is definitely a confusing subject...and 2 years of kendo experience for me hasn't been enough to master its ways. bah. but looking at the kanji, I think Japanese people would read it simply as "feeling" or "emotion"--in kendo terms, it would be more like "spirit". for me, personally, I'd put these two together and say that it's the desire to achieve something, like victory.

in battle, however much the kendoist focuses on this desire to win leads them to overpower their opponent in achieving that victory.

[Mifune]

Now you guys can call me crazy, and maybe some will :smiley: , but while I was watching some higher ranking people in my class free spar (Pa Kua), I saw sort of like "waves" of white luminescent engery being emitted by them towards each other. I has only happened once, but I have always thought I actually saw their chi being directed towards one another. Of course I was exhausted by rigorous training, so that could be the cause. It was so beautiful and I just sat there awe-struck.

[Tholon]

What about "runners high" - is that similar to Ki?

The feeling seems to be the same, to feel energized, focused and calm.
And unstoppable!

And what about when you are having days or meetings or schooltests when just everything works! Whatever you do - you succeed.
Or to play music on stage. With a roaring crowd - oh I remember the days....
I think the Scots calls it to be possesed by the Gods.

Is that similar to Ki?

[Seta]

At training has anyone ever felt their opponent's ki? I meant felt it like a physical sensation. Not during the striking but before. Sort of like a tinging feeling ?

[indigo0086]

[QUOTE=Neil Gendzwill](not too deep or you risk knee injury).[QUOTE]

That's what seiza's there for isn't it?

[Washington]

At training has anyone ever felt their opponent's ki? I meant felt it like a physical sensation. Not during the striking but before. Sort of like a tinging feeling ?
Does shouting and spitting my denture at someone count ? Kiai that pinches my cheeks together when I shout breaks the grip and losens it up :shocked:

[gdane1989]

Being in tune with your ki can be a wonderful sensation and an uplifting event. it can be achieved through meditation, concentration, and mostly practice. Being in tune with ki is being in tune with your body, its energy, and all its essence. (Im not trying to sound all mystical and stuff here, this is just my experience.)
I have been doing martial arts for years, (starting kendo soon) and have needed to learn to breath right, concentrate my energy right, and be in tune with my body, in sparring matches, unlike just regular practices, i have surprised even myself. I dont hold my "KIAI!" back at all, and I fight hard, but keeping a balance all at the same time. I feel like like i could go forever, and my strikes are swift, powerful, fluent, and accurate. I get kind of like a runners high. I cant wait to see how it will be with the Shinai and bokken.

MY two cents. Has anyone else experienced something like this?

[Jacynth]

Ki or Chi is a term of medetation or focas. For me Chi is not real unless i make it real. Usually peoples amount of Chi is directed by their body and they leave it to gain control by itself. This is not a healthy income of the energy.To trully focas your Chi energy you have to let go of your body and put your mind and soul in control ( note this is only position where Chi actually works ). Through this technique you make Chi a real living energy and with it as your ally you will be able to control it in profound ways.

For me Chi is esentaill to Martial Arts as the main purpose besides getting fit is to reach a peaceful state of enlightenment and only through Martial arts or Zen techniques can you experiance the magic of this Mysterious energy. When i started Martial Arts i was always constantly medetating trying to get this energy under conrol before i fight and trust me it will make a diffrence.
unfortunatly i can no longer reach a state of focas or peace any more. Don't know why but i can't. I will though hopefully retrain my skills in a Foreign country which i will be travling to soon. ( Some hope :rolleyes: )

But i this is what i done when i could feel it.

1. Medetate at least ten minutes and make sure you are aware of everything that is around you.

2. imagine with every breath you take in a dark blue light is entering your body. This blue light flows like air but can be contained like water so you have to use your imagnation.

3. Also imagine you are in a beutiful environment that makes you happy. I imagine a field at night with all the stars lit and a smooth blue sky.

4. After you feel you are completly healed spit out all the blue stuff and imagine while you are doing it your losing weight. ( If you know what i mean!) It might help to put some whater in your mouth a spit it out to help you vigulize.

5. When you are sparring or practicing your Katas or whatever. Always imagine the feeling and what you saw while you where medetating and i'll guarantee you it will help. :wink:

[yamesu]

i believe KI is our life force, the 'glue' which holds our existance together, like the force that causes our muscles to move, the force that holds the earth in orbit, or the states of thought attained in the human mind.

i think we all experience the phenomena of KI everyday, and its as plain to use as the keyboard in front of us, but we choose to overlook the wonder of simplicity.

[Anime12478]

I believe that Ki is the force that helps us live our everyday lives. Any person who doesn't develop their Ki will only use enough to do what any human can do in everyday life. When someone develops their Ki, whether it be through the martial arts or strict meditation, that enables him/her to do much more than stay awake all day. I just have a feeling that us humans had some amazing attribute during the prehistoric age that was lost as more and more technological advancements were made...all starting with the wheel.

[gdane1989]

I also believe Ki is life energy, its what binds our spirits and our bodies together. Without ki id be dead. I was not saying i was letting it take control or whatever. What i was saying is that reaching a stage where you are totally in tune with your whole essence is an awesome thing. Personally i feel like i could spar forever, or at least until i die. I meditate often, id probably have killed myself if i didnt. Probably the best meditation period i have ever had was last week. I was all alone and i sat down in the living room. I wanted to just meditate a little while before breakfast. All i remember was a feeling of peacefullness. And then my grandmother coming home from work. (3 hrs. later!) for the rest of the day i kept my cool, not even a hint of bad emotion ( Fear, Anger, etc.) Never felt better since. I meditate often, and it helps me stay relaxed, i have never been nervous in a match, or in any violent confrontation since i started really meditating. If anyone thinks meditation is balony, try it! Be sure to do it right though or youll just be thinking ( This is balony!) the whole time.

[Tightnme]

I think I might have felt my ki come out one time, but that could have just been gas- :D

i have felt this ki alot is it strong within me

[skilled]

Ki mmmm , I'm not sure if I felt it . =)