Can't test with jodan?

[moocow65]

I recently heard that a kenshi tested for yon-dan using jodan no kamae, but the graders stopped him, and made him test with seigan. Why? I came up with three theories:
1. Only seigan can be used to take the test. (But in Japan, people test for their hachi-dan with jodan and nito hmm..)
2. It's "unfair" for the other person because they don't know how to do kendo against jodan. (If they don't know how to do that, then maybe they shouldn't be testing for yon-dan, which is regarded as a kendo SENSEI over here).
3. The graders themselves have no clue how to grade it. Well excuse me, but if a bunch of 7-dan sensei don't know how to judge jodan, they shouldn't be 7-dan. How can you devote 30+ years to kendo and be a yon-dan grader and not know how to judge jodan?

Whatever the case may be, I believe it was extremely unfair and insulting. Here's a guy who predominantly does jodan, and wanted to earn his yon-dan with the kamae he is best with. Then at the last minute, these guys tell him that he has to test using seigan. Did they think his jodan wasn't good enough? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything in the rules that state the shinsa must be taken with seigan. If that truly is the case, how come people in Japan can? I think this was a load of crap.

[ben]

"Art and Grade:
Kendo 3-dan (4-LIFE!!!!)"

What do you care?

b

[Curtis]

I am curious to know where this occurred.

I find this lacking in thought. In some cases you have people who have broken an achilles tendon and have switched to jodan to preserve their health and ability to continue kendo.

There are a couple ways to view this. I have seen people try to switch to jodan because their seigan is weak. In several cases it has only helped them a little. In the end it has not given them what they wanted and it shows up anyway.

Most people I have seen that are strong at jodan were also strong at seigan. There are always exceptions to the case.

I personally would not have a problem with this at yondan. The basics would still be apparent. In most cases to get sandan the basics have to be there. If they do not have basics then I do not pass them. Unfair to the other candidate? Well there are two keiko or give the other person a third keiko.

However I often find myself at odds with the status quo.

[grasshopper_r2]

??????????????????????????????

[MaxPayneWayne]

Will the people with the pointless posts stop posting! What is your guys' problems? If you want to insult someone, BEN, why don't you do it to their face instead of hiding behind a computer screen? I'm sure moocow wouldn't mind settling the difference in a keiko.
As for the thread, Maxpaynewayne agrees with moocow and Curtis. We need to stop discriminating against non status quo kamae.

[Musha]

If you watch the TV documentary 'Kendo's gruelling challenge' I think it's called. The older man taking his 8th dan came up against a man doing Nito kendo. So if you can do Nito for 8th dan in Japan why not jyoudan?

Maybe the judges don't have enough knowledge to grade that style.

Just my observations :wink:.

[Musha]

And where do you grade Moocow? You could E-mail the IKF in Japan and ask for info on Jyodan.
I might try and grade some where else if the judges seem unfit because if you do push them into grading using Jyodan they might discriminate against you for doing it..

[JRyo]

Well excuse me, but if a bunch of 7-dan sensei don't know how to judge jodan, they shouldn't be 7-dan. How can you devote 30+ years to kendo and be a yon-dan grader and not know how to judge jodan?

Under those circumstances, I think someone who does exclusively Jo-dan and cannot play seigan when he is asked should not be playing Jo-dan. Like Curtis said, most people who are strong at jo-dan usually have a strong foundation of seigan.

Of course, you might be stronger with jo-dan and will probably be able to produce a better show of your kendo at gradings, but if you think about the aite for a minute, not everyone has experience playing against jo-dan, whereas a jo-dan player almost ALWAYS plays against seigan ppl.

Especially for Yon-dan where showing seme starts to get really important, some ppl dont even change kamae to play against jo-dan because they have no idea where to put their shinai.

True, this might be different in Japan, seeing as there is almost always at least one jo-dan player in every dojo over there, and also seeing as the kendo community is like 10000x larger than any other country.

The thing is, in countries like the U.S. not all dojo's have the luxury having jo-dan players in every dojo. Being able to play good jo-dan is great, but not everyone has the luxury of learing about it, and if you can't back it up with ur seigan, I dont think you should be doing jo-dan.

[JSchmidt]

The thing is, in countries like the U.S. not all dojo's have the luxury having jo-dan players in every dojo. Being able to play good jo-dan is great, but not everyone has the luxury of learing about it, and if you can't back it up with ur seigan, I dont think you should be doing jo-dan.
Yet, if you want to excell at doing jodan, most people advice to only do jodan and your seigan will suffer.

Jakob

[Andoru]

Sorry off-topic. Is "seigan" the shidachi position in kata #5 (to counter uchidachi's hidari jodan) or is this "chudan-no-kamae"? Vaguely I do remember reading that these 2 words are inter-changeable.

[JRyo]

Yet, if you want to excell at doing jodan, most people advice to only do jodan and your seigan will suffer.

Hmmm yes that is true in other countries, however in Japan most Jo-dan players start to change kamae after about 8-10 years of raw basics. Even if they do change kamae, they don't just forget the basics.

In other countries on the other hand, most people who start kendo later that express an interest in a different kamae are very likely to switch before they can truly apply the basics they have learned from seigan to jodan. Naturally due to the fact that they have not practice at least as much basics as anyone else. As a result, their jo-dan improves but their seigan does suffer. It's the price to pay.

In the end, the real basics of kendo can be applied to any kamae as long as you understand them and can do them well.

[misterkurukuru]

seigan is regular kamae
seigan=chudan

[Stefan]

seigan is regular kamae
seigan=chudan
In the book "Kendo Kata - Essence and Application" by Inoue Yoshihiko it is mentioned that seigan is a little bit higher than chudan. If I remember it correctly in earlier times uchidachi and shidachi both stood in seigan no (is this particle used here?) kamae at the beginnig of roppon me. Than uchidachi assumes chudan no kamae (lowering the kensen) and shidachi assumes gedan no kamae. During the decades the difference between seigan and chudan got lost or else. That leads to the contemporary interpretation that the uchidachi assumes chudan no kamae and lowers his kensen a little bit to signal the shidachi that he should assume gedan or start the performance.

Any corrections are welcome,

Stefan

[Catherine]

Today seigan is commonly used to refer to the kamae where the shinai tip is pointing at your opponent's left eye (as the opponent would see it).

It is this kamae that is most often used against jodan.

I also read Inoue sensei's explanation of how seigan and chudan got confused in the modern world - I found it very interesting (and it helped make more sense of some of the kata!)

Catherine

[Mr.Tvola]

I have seen it too, that a jodan guy had to do examination with chudan (in Europe). He was really good in Jodan, but in chudan he was much weaker... and failed.

Is there any reason, why people cannot do jodan (or Nito, when it comes to that?) during dan exam? I think it is discriminating the people, who choose to go the harder way...

[Hongsermeier]

I'm not sure of any rules limiting the kamae used to test, but I do know of a Sensei in Japan that was told he could test but would not pass if he used Jodan on any test above yondan. When he was younger he only used Jodan and was considered extreamly good. I think he even went to the all Japan taikai. He's now nanadan and uses only Chudan.

[Kendo-Militia]

[QUOTE=Curtis]I am curious to know where this occurred.



This happened last week here in So Cal. Yea I thought it was strange but also unfair to the one being tested. If this is a rule (which I NEVER heard of ) then it should be stated early on. Here a guy practices all year long then on test day is asked to change is Kamae. More than likely people do not know how to correctly judge Jo-Dan Kamae just like they cannot correctly score a DO. It is sad but I was taught in shiai , for the most part it is a waste of time to hit a DO. Many people do not know how to score it so why hit it.

[Hongsermeier]

I also agree that there is a problem with some people being judges. My wife was told once to please keep using a certain waza and not to get frustrated that it was not being counted as a point. The reason was that the judges had never seen it before and had to learn to watch for it. During a test they want to make it easy on the judges since there are so many people testing.

[taiwnezboi]

[QUOTE=Curtis]I am curious to know where this occurred.



This happened last week here in So Cal. Yea I thought it was strange but also unfair to the one being tested. If this is a rule (which I NEVER heard of ) then it should be stated early on. Here a guy practices all year long then on test day is asked to change is Kamae. More than likely people do not know how to correctly judge Jo-Dan Kamae just like they cannot correctly score a DO. It is sad but I was taught in shiai , for the most part it is a waste of time to hit a DO. Many people do not know how to score it so why hit it.

Why wouldn't they know how to score a doh? In my experience if you do it at the right time and go through you almost always get the point.

[taiwnezboi]

I have seen it too, that a jodan guy had to do examination with chudan (in Europe). He was really good in Jodan, but in chudan he was much weaker... and failed.

Is there any reason, why people cannot do jodan (or Nito, when it comes to that?) during dan exam? I think it is discriminating the people, who choose to go the harder way...

Doing jodan / nito is considered "going the harder way" ?

[Mr.Tvola]

Doing jodan / nito is considered "going the harder way" ?

I would say so :-) But I may be wrong ... Perhaps some nito / jodan practitioner here can tell :old_man:

[Curtis]

If this is a rule (which I NEVER heard of ) then it should be stated early on.Well you know how kendo is, there are many unwritten rules.

I will training under Inoue Sensei, 9 dan in a couple weeks. He came and gave the seminar for the AUSKF about conducting shinsa . I am going ask him for his opinions about this.

[Hongsermeier]

Another side of this question is the person who has to test against someone doing Jodan or Nito. What if that person has no idea of how to fight against "different" kamae. Then that persons kendo may look bad when it's really not that bad. I know the person who is being talked about here and I wouldn't want to test against him doing Jodan. I know I would look REALLY bad. I have practiced with him before and would be more comfortable with him doing chudan. Even though he would still be much better than me, I wouldn't look as bad.

[WARCRY]

Hy guys...i m new here!Before i go into REAL posting i d like to know u ppl better...cause i m new even with kendo...i m a 1 year kenshi so...no grade...i don t even know all the terms!
About my kendo?Well Sensei said i have very good reflexes but i lach experience wich is kinda normal:))
I did one rather amusing thing...and i want to know ur opinion about this:
-i was fighting with one of the sensei in my dojo...and he was kicking my but:))
At one time i kinda had the feeling he s going for MEN...i slipped underneath him and gave him a perfect DO...i mean that way it seemed to me...He was smilling...
I mean i didn t hit him cause i had experience or good reflexes...i hit him cause i guessed were he was going...is this ok?I mean in a real fight that would have been a great risk!Is this that feeling of anticipation?Am i starting to do real Kendo or was...just a funny thing?
I m asking cause i don t really know what is in a experienced kendoka s mind!
I saw that all my sensei have a good kamae that they have a good posture...that conserves energy!But how can they anticipate what i m going for?I move first and still they hit me!I am younger i have better reflexes yet they kick me:)
Is kendo based on that kind of lucky guess i had or is a more complex feeling than guessing?

Critics is welcomed!:)) See ya:)

[Halcyon]

Another side of this question is the person who has to test against someone doing Jodan or Nito. What if that person has no idea of how to fight against "different" kamae. Then that persons kendo may look bad when it's really not that bad.I don't think this is what the judges are concerned about. If one is testing for yondan, one should have a good idea of how to play against jodan. From what my sensei has told me, during a shinsa, the judges want to see that you have a solid grasp of chudan. For example, at a shinsa last year where there was a yondan candidate who normally does jodan, that person tested in chudan for two of the three matches. Then took jodan in the last match. If you're a yondan candidate and you look "bad" against jodan, well, that's not really the jodan player's problem, IMHO.

[Hongsermeier]

warcry...What you are refering to as luck, many call instincts. After many years of practice you will begin to develop a "feel" for what someone is doing. Then you will be able to counter their attack.

[Old Warrior]

I mean i didn t hit him cause i had experience or good reflexes...i hit him cause i guessed were he was going...is this ok?I
When you can do the same thing 8 times out of 10, you will realize it isn't a matter of guessing. You may not be able to put your finger on precisely what it is - but it ain't guessing.

Recently, in a moment of weakness I asked my teacher "am I getting any better?". He pointed to his eye and said "Your eye much much better". I don't think he intended a left handed complement; what he meant was that I am nowhere as easy to hit as I once used to be. And, its not because I am getting younger and faster.

[Kendo-Militia]

[QUOTE=Curtis]Well you know how kendo is, there are many unwritten rules.

Yes true and very vague.

[SirFingerLickin]

Just as a side note, I noticed tenken took the test using chudan. Why was that? Most everyone here knows jodan is his kamae of choice, so why did he use chudan for the test?

[DCPan]

Just as a side note, I noticed tenken took the test using chudan. Why was that? Most everyone here knows jodan is his kamae of choice, so why did he use chudan for the test?

LOL...think about which dojo moocow is from.... :rolleyes:

[Kendo-Militia]

Just as a side note, I noticed tenken took the test using chudan. Why was that? Most everyone here knows jodan is his kamae of choice, so why did he use chudan for the test?


What do you think this whole post is about?

[Paburo]

one thing im wondering here is... did he pass the test?

and do the testers know he does jodan regularly? do they know him at all for that matter?

i think that changes a lot the circumstances here (even though in THEORY it shouldn't...)

[Inouye02]

one thing im wondering here is... did he pass the test?

and do the testers know he does jodan regularly? do they know him at all for that matter?

i think that changes a lot the circumstances here (even though in THEORY it shouldn't...)

yes,yes and yes

[m_french]

one thing im wondering here is... did he pass the test?

and do the testers know he does jodan regularly? do they know him at all for that matter?

i think that changes a lot the circumstances here (even though in THEORY it shouldn't...)
SoCal has alot of Kenshi true, but you tend notice the people you see over and over and over again. And as for anonymity....hell alot of you on the forum know this guy!

[Hongsermeier]

In theory the testers are not supposed to know who you are. However, I was testing on a different court and when I heard his kiai I turned around to see where he was testing. It took me a min to find him since he was in chudan. The longer a person is around the more people know your kiai and other habits that make you standout.

[Curtis]

As an examiner I know who almost all the candidates are with the exception of a few first timers. Mostly because I go out so much.

When you have only about 400 people in a federation you get to know them all pretty quickly. Sometimes though I see them for a test and do not recognize them on the floor until after. What is really interesting is how you can tell what dojo they are by their kendo quite often.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Certainly by the time people are trying yondan the examiners know who they are.

[Kendo-Militia]

Certainly by the time people are trying yondan the examiners know who they are.
Well here is another question regarding testing.

Why do we remove our Zekken, use chalk or tape on our tare? The examiners all have a list, with the numbers we have on our tare, along with our name, dojo, and age? I understand the theory behind examiners shouldn't know who we are so hopefully they would not be bais. But then shouldn't our names not be on the examiner's list. Is this something that is happening just down here or is it like this in the PNW? And if so are we just going through the motions so to speak when taking test?

[Curtis]

Well here is another question regarding testing.

Why do we remove our Zekken, use chalk or tape on our tare? The examiners all have a list, with the numbers we have on our tare, along with our name, dojo, and age? I understand the theory behind examiners shouldn't know who we are so hopefully they would not be bais. But then shouldn't our names not be on the examiner's list. Is this something that is happening just down here or is it like this in the PNW? And if so are we just going through the motions so to speak when taking test?Here in the PNKF we never have the names or dojo on the examiner sheets. Age, number, and how often they practice. I doubt your examiners do either.

But realistically what is there to figure out. We are not like Japan where they test hundreds in a day with rotating boards. We come in and see the people sitting there without their men on. When you only test a hundred or two hundred...

As far as bias goes, I will tell you what Inoue sensei said to me at the seminar, "That is why there are 5 or 7 examiners".

[T.Lee]

Just as a side note, I noticed tenken took the test using chudan. Why was that? Most everyone here knows jodan is his kamae of choice, so why did he use chudan for the test?

What do you think this whole post is about?

DING DING DING

[Kento]

This is a comment from a jodan Kendoist.

I played chudan in all my promotions test including recent successful 5 dan test. Reasons are:

I believe (as well as many sensei's in the world) that chudan is a basic kamae, and we should take a test with it. Even Chiba-sensei of Keshicho who won three times with his jodan in All Japan Tournament took tests with chudan including his successful 8 dan;
My kihon in chudan is much better in jodan: I am not confident with my kihon in jodan. I need to maintain the state of "Hi no kurai" all the time. Chudan is good for offense and defense, and this is why chudan, I believe, is a basic kamae. Jodan, on the other hand, is offense only, requiring you to maitain "Hi no kurai." It is impossible for me to maintain this state of mind during the promotion test, however short. Once I lose this state, it means that I am not doing basic jodan. Yes, I will fail the promotion test.
It will be very difficult to execute high-quality Katate Men and Kote (in debana and when your aite is "itsuku"/frozen). At the same time I need to kill my aite's most waza with aiuchi, which is the "physical application of "Hi no kurai" (if you come, I will go, too, ending up at least with both of us getting hit and drawing). If I sway back to avoid getting hit, I will fail the test with the same above reason;
With each strike, whether properly hitting or not, you need to maintain a proper posture. If you miss your Katate Waza, it is often we loose a proper posture, bending over too much, etc. If you loose your posture, you will fail.
It is very difficult to show seme with jodan except when you have a near perfect debana waza or strike when you aite is "itsuku." In chudan, you can show your seme by taking the center, which is obvious as shinai is touching with the other.
I am a Kendoist who with jodan won a couple of regional tournaments in the East Coast and Midwest for the 3 dan above division and recently got 3rd place at Shidogakuin 20th Anniverary Tounament (lost against Chris). My intension is not to brag about myself but to tell the audience that my jodan is decent, OK?

I believe that it is harder to pass a promotion test with jodan with the all of the reasons above. I assume that it was a kind instruction from the panel of jusdges requiring chudan in the test as it is, as I believe, impossible to pass the test with jodan. I will practice my jodan from now on, but I am not sure when I will become confident to take a test with jodan....

[SirFingerLickin]

No, there were 2 jodan kendoists testing that day. tenken didnt try using jodan at all from what I saw, and after him the other jodan user did use it at first, but then the shimpan talked to him and had him use chudan. This incident wasnt about tenken, but another jodan user.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why do we remove our Zekken, use chalk or tape on our tare? The examiners all have a list, with the numbers we have on our tare, along with our name, dojo, and age?
The examiners' forms in the CKF don't have a name, just a number and an age. They do take age into account. I'm just saying that once you get to a certain level, everyone knows who you are, can't be helped.

And speaking as someone who has served as tachi-ai a number of times, the numbers make organizing the candidates much, much easier. They are ordered by age so that the proper age people are fighting each other. I don't have to remember everyone's names or look at a sheet or anything. I address everybody by number, divide them up into fighting groups by number, check if there are missing bodies by number... Also, for ikkyu and shodan many of the people don't have a zekken yet.

[MabahoMan]

Why would people going for Ikyu & Shodan not have their zekken yet? Do you guys not allow it until a certain rank?

[Neil Gendzwill]

In our dojo, we have a little tradition where we present the zekken as a gift when the member gets shodan. It's never an issue for us as we're so far from anywhere that the only tournament people play in is our little local one at the seminar.

[Steve]

When grading in a kamae other than Chudan, you must ask for permission from the grading judges before hand. At least thats how it is in Canada from my undertanding. As to why, here is how it was explained to me from various sources.

The reason there is so much "hoopla" about grading in non-chudan kamae, is that assuming a kamae other than chudan can be considered arrogant. In fact, it is customary to ask to use Jodan in keiko against a sensei each time you want to use it. In fact i belive in Japan, you don't ask but you say "excuse me" or something like that before hand in the context of "please excuse my arrogant and aggressive kamae, Sensei."

Grading is a chance to show the judges that you indeed have the ability to use the proper form and techniques they are looking for for each grade level. The fundamental forms in Kendo come from Chudan, so grading in a kamae other than chudan is basically telling people that you think your fundamentals in chudan are good enough and you can move on to a more advanced kamae.

This is not what all jodan kendoka think about themselves (i know i don't), but traditionally this is part of the attitude you project when doing Jodan. And, in the context of grading, your attitude, posture, and form mean *everything*.

There was a Kendoka at the last CKF grading who did Jodan for his Yon-Dan. But he asked permission first. I used Chudan for my most recent grading, but next time i intend to ask if i may use jodan...well in advance and on the day of.

[grasshopper_r2]

[QUOTE=Steve] In fact i belive in Japan, you don't ask but you say "excuse me" or something like that before hand in the context of "please excuse my arrogant and aggressive kamae, Sensei."[QUOTE]

That's correct, the term used is "go burei", which means just what you said, it is also used when you defeat someones attack (provided it was a good attack).

[JSchmidt]

[QUOTE=Steve] In fact i belive in Japan, you don't ask but you say "excuse me" or something like that before hand in the context of "please excuse my arrogant and aggressive kamae, Sensei."[QUOTE]

That's correct, the term used is "go burei", which means just what you said, it is also used when you defeat someones attack (provided it was a good attack).
I was taught to bow and say 'onegai-shimasu', regardless if it was a senior or a junior.

Jakob

[grasshopper_r2]

If I am correct, One gozaimasu, has a meaning of "please teach me", or similar context.

[Steve]

I guess it really depends on your dojo. Dojo's i visit where the Sensei know i want to use Jodan with them, i don't stop the practice session and ask to use jodan...they just kinda nod their head and signal to me its ok. Other Sensei, especially very high ranked ones i always stop and ask. I guess just do what you're told as far as this goes.

[Halcyon]

The phrase I use when I go into jodan against my sensei or sempai is "shitsurei shimasu," which translates into "please excuse me" or more literally, "i shall commit a discourtesy."

[bamboo_stick]

There is no reason why someone would not be allowed to grade using jodan.
Period

[Matlock]

There is no reason why someone would not be allowed to grade using jodan.
PeriodI have heard of people testing with nito ryu. So.... I guess it depends on where you are, who is grading you and what those people want to see.

Cheers

[kendokamax]

chiba sensei didn't even grade with jodan for hachidan.....

so uh go figure

I think jodan should be an addition to your kendo, not just becoming someone else.