traditional dojo orientation - kamiza, etc.

[shotoblogger]

How do you line up for beginning and ending etiquette in your dojo? What is your understanding of the rationale for lining up that way?

Below is an explanation of the circumstances that led to asking these questions. If anyone can explain the discrepancies, please do...

I recently purchased Kendo World's Kendo Kata by Inoue. In the back, there is a discussion of traditional dojo orientation, as follows:

(1) The dojo shrine is located at the shinza/shinzen on the north end of the dojo.
(2) The kamiza is located on the east side.
(3) The shimoza is located on the west side.

This explanation agrees with Jinichi Tokeshi's Kendo: Elements, Rules, and Philosophy which says:

(1) The shomen (shrine, national flag, etc) is on the north end of the dojo, the sensei on the east, and students on the west (which would be to the shrine's right).
(2) The kamiza is L-shaped and includes the north and east sides of the dojo, while the shimoza is L-shaped and includes the south and west sides.
(3) The students line up with the most senior closest to the north (which would be on the instructor's right).


However, in my shotokan karate dojo, we line up as so:

(1) The instructor sits on the same side as and in front of the shomen. He faces forward for the first bow, then turns and faces the class for the second bow.
(2) The students line up facing the shomen, not to its right.
(2) The most senior students are on the left of the instructor, not on his right.

This arrangement is the same described for aikido in Westbrook and Ratti's Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere, which says:

(1) The photo of O-sensei is located in the kamiza.
(2) The instructor sits in the kamiza facing the students.
(3) The students sit in the shimoza with the most senior on the instructor's left, which is called the joseki.

I have also visited two kendo dojos with yet different arrangements. The first is like the Inoue/Tokeshi arrangement, except that the sensei sits on the shomen's right instead of its left, while the students line up to its left instead of its right. The second dojo is like the karate/aikido arrangement, except the most senior students line up on the instructor's right.

[Rularn]

It depends really on the construction of the dojo/practice space. In a typical budo training center, the shomen probably is built in the north direction with everything else following one of the standards you mentioned.

In the US though, not all places follow that norm and so sometimes you will see the exit on the north, east, south, or west side of the building. In such a case, it is impossible to have shomen on the same side as the door.

In that regard, shomen is the wall opposite the entrance with sensei sitting on the side away from the door and students line up senior to junior with juniors closer to the door. If you follow that bit, you would be safe in any dojo. If you try matching building construction to the four cardinal directions, you are just asking for a unneccessry confusion.

As for sensei sitting in front of shomen or on one of the sides, I think that varies with the place you go to. I don't see alot of places with sensei right in front of shomen though.
If this didn't really answer your question, I apologize. I'm just blabbering.

[Andoru]

In that regard, shomen is the wall opposite the entrance with sensei sitting on the side away from the door and students line up senior to junior with juniors closer to the door. If you follow that bit, you would be safe in any dojo. If you try matching building construction to the four cardinal directions, you are just asking for a unneccessry confusion.

Indeed. I was told that one of the reason why shomen/kamiza is opposite of the entrance is because given that it is a symbol of the dojo, it's located furthest away from the entrance in case of an "invasion". The invaders would have to fight all the students and senseis before coming close to the kamiza. Something like that.

[AngryMonkey]

I heard something like that. Stick all the beginners in the way of any intruders so that no one important is lost during a surprise attack. You never know, one of them may get lucky and do some damage as well.

[shotoblogger]

I don't see alot of places with sensei right in front of shomen though.
If this didn't really answer your question, I apologize. I'm just blabbering.
No, I was wondering that.

[shotoblogger]

Indeed. I was told that one of the reason why shomen/kamiza is opposite of the entrance is because given that it is a symbol of the dojo, it's located furthest away from the entrance in case of an "invasion". The invaders would have to fight all the students and senseis before coming close to the kamiza. Something like that.
Yes, I heard an explanation in connection with karate once in a similar vein. Something about the dojo being attacked. I think it is not correct. I think having senior students closer to the shomen and the door opposite the kamiza is just a sign of respect. The Inoue book also talks about how when you move in the dojo you should always walk with the foot farthest from the kamiza first. That way, you don't "turn your back" to it. Also, coming in a door, your back would be to the kamiza when you stepped in if it was on the same wall.

[Banza Joe]

confusing as hell.
In our aikido dojo, sensei sits in front of the pic of o sensei and the higher grades are on the opposite side with seniors to the left of sensei.

In our iaido dojo, the seniors are the same way as in aikido, but we turn left to face kamiza (kamiza is to the right of sensei).

In our kendo dojo the seniors are to the opposite and right of sensei (sure, that means the lower ranks are nearest the entrance), but the kamiza is still to the right of sensei, hence we turn left to bow to kamiza.


Hmmmmmmm.......

[Chusan]

We are not in Japan, we don`t have a Dojo.
When we do Mokuzo, we`re sitting in a circle. No "guru-ing" in our club... :laugh:

[shotoblogger]

confusing as hell.
In our aikido dojo, sensei sits in front of the pic of o sensei and the higher grades are on the opposite side with seniors to the left of sensei.

In our iaido dojo, the seniors are the same way as in aikido, but we turn left to face kamiza (kamiza is to the right of sensei).

In our kendo dojo the seniors are to the opposite and right of sensei (sure, that means the lower ranks are nearest the entrance), but the kamiza is still to the right of sensei, hence we turn left to bow to kamiza.
Anyone ever give reasons for this or just "this is the way we do it"?

We are not in Japan, we don`t have a Dojo.
When we do Mokuzo, we`re sitting in a circle. No "guru-ing" in our club... :laugh:
Bonehead.

[grasshopper_r2]

Shotoblogger, How long did it take for you to get your Kendo book, I ordered mine over 3 weeks ago and it has not come yet, I contacted KW over a week ago and still nothing...just wandering if it took more than 4 weeks??

[Navyguy]

Here is a rough drawing, a reflection of my computer skills.... Somebody willing to offer suggestion on proper protocal?

The area is quite small. East wall is actuall a large window, West wall is actually where various weapons are hung for storage/display.

Narrow section is about 16-20', Width is about 35-40'.

[hamish]

Grasshopper_r2: It shouldn't take that long, but we've been having some problems with the post. Send me a mail with the details to: subscribe@kendo-world.com

Hamish

[hamish]

The kamiza decides where you sit in a restaurant etc., as well, always with the highest ranked person, in principle, farthest from the door. I guess that's the same principle, its normal Japanese etiquette, not much to do with the hypothetical 'If 500 guys come charging into the dojo'

I've seen a lot of formats, and one place I trained in Tokyo last week got in a circle, and didn't have a shomen-ni-rei or sensei-ni-rei at all, as per Chusan's example above.

[hamish]

Try this layout. Its pretty standard, and one I've seen in many dojo in Japan, traditional and otherwise.

Hamish

[grasshopper_r2]

Thanks Hamish, I'm sending the mail now.

[Navyguy]

Try this layout. Its pretty standard, and one I've seen in many dojo in Japan, traditional and otherwise.

Hamish
Thanks for looking at that. That is currently what we are doing now, but for years we were doing things differently.