Musashi vs. Giant Whale

[Nanbanjin]

http://www2.big.or.jp/~adel/sobi/sb-02-pics/sa-b/kny-k-b.jpg

No bats yet...

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/016-2/016-2132.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/012-0/012-0140.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/016-1/016-1648.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://metro2.tokyo.opac.jp/tml/tpic/imagedata/toritsu/ukiyoe/N1/N140-002(01).jpg

[Nanbanjin]

Tsubame-Gaeshi (roughly translates as Swallow Return) is so called not because Sasaki Sanjuhroh practiced by cutting down swallows in flight, but because the action of the blade resembles a diving swallow. The blade cuts back upwards after it has been swung down.

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/100-9/100-9133.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

While Miyamoto Musashi is generally written 宮本武蔵 in many of these prints Musashi is referred to as 宮本無三四

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/016-0/016-0920.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/005-0/005-0913.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/016-1/016-1170.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/101mzazou.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/131hoteikantoukei12.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

before someone posts that self portrait of Musashi standing there holding two swords?

[Nanbanjin]

http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/114koubaihato2.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

What would Musashi think?

[Nanbanjin]

http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/104pollock.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/kigyuuhotei.jpg

[Nanbanjin]

In movies you see people wearing swords on their back with the hilt coming up from behind the right shoulder. If Japanese swordsmen wore swords on their backs at all, it was with the hilt coming from the left shoulder. It's too hard to draw the sword otherwise.

[Nanbanjin]

Please forgive my ignorance.

[Niels]

Shjees, not much of a looker is he?

[Nanbanjin]

Shjees, not much of a looker is he?
I guess back then you didn't need to be good looking to be famous and successful. There's a self portrait of musashi using nitoh and in that he looks a little like Mr. Burns from the Simpsons.

[hamish]

Nanbanjin, Can you provide links for the above images rather than pasting the images in?

It starts to take up too much bandwidth, and for those on modem connections, it takes forever to load up.

Cheers

[Paburo]

pardon my ignorance hamish, but how does it increase bandwidth for you if the images are hosted outside the KW server?

about dial ups, yes, i guess ppl with this kind of connection should be aware of the delay on the multimedia section....

[Nanbanjin]

pardon my ignorance hamish, but how does it increase bandwidth for you if the images are hosted outside the KW server?

about dial ups, yes, i guess ppl with this kind of connection should be aware of the delay on the multimedia section....

My thoughts exactly. In fact, all I provided was links. The only difference is that I wrapped them in url brackets. This just loads the images automatically when the page loads. This should be done on the client side; the KW servers shouldn't come into the equation. For all but those on dialup the img tags are nothing more than a cosmetic difference. And not including them looks crappy.

For those on dialup... suffer!
Alternatively, cancel the page, or if you think its worth it wait a while.

[Nanbanjin]

Just out of interest and for future reference, is there anyone out there loading this page on dialup? Just how bad is it?

Further to my defence, one of the images in the "Post picts of yourself" is over 600kb!!! Hamish only noticed mine because they are big and flashy. Even the largest image in this collection is less than 200kb.

Hamish, if you are still concerned please feel free to edit the [img] tags out of this thread.

[Hyaku]

Nice but I believe there is copyright on some of these prints.

[akahige]

Just out of interest and for future reference, is there anyone out there loading this page on dialup? Just how bad is it? yeah, i'm on dial-up. i wasn't counting, but it took about 5-10 minutes( :bored: ) to load the first page. not too bad, but a little annoying :wink:

cool prints though:D

[akahige]

here's another one; you'll have to click to placate Hamish.
http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/005-0/005-0300.jpg


side note: if anyone's interested in Ukiyo-e, here's a big database (although if you can't read japanese it's a little difficult to search).

浮世絵閲覧システム - 検索結果 (http://133.9.157.146/web41/enpakunishik/FMPro?-db=nishikie.fp5&-format=results.htm&-lay=layout2&all%5ffields=*&-max=30&-skip=0&-find=)

[ShudoKan Kai]

http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/101mzazou.jpg
Notice the position of his katana implying Musashi's readiness for attack.

[ukenagashi]

ok so so come musashi looks like a red demon in the home renovation pic and why is he fighting a giant whale in the first place?

[Nanbanjin]

here's another one; you'll have to click to placate Hamish.
http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/005-0/005-0300.jpg


side note: if anyone's interested in Ukiyo-e, here's a big database (although if you can't read japanese it's a little difficult to search).

浮世絵閲覧システム - 検索結果 (http://133.9.157.146/web41/enpakunishik/FMPro?-db=nishikie.fp5&-format=results.htm&-lay=layout2&all%5ffields=*&-max=30&-skip=0&-find=)

That's one of the search engines I used.

I got some good stuff from http://themusasi.hp.infoseek.co.jp
The whale was from http://www2.big.or.jp/~adel/sobi/sobi-room3.shtml#anchor63012

Another search engine is at http://metro2.tokyo.opac.jp/

Writing Musashi as 無三四 threw me a bit.
No

I had long forgotten the joys of dialup access. 5 - 10 minutes is too long by any measure. I'll stick to links if I am going to make multiple posts like this. I only realised you could post images the other day so I got a bit carried away.

ok so so come musashi looks like a red demon in the home renovation pic and why is he fighting a giant whale in the first place?

Good question. Could be a good research project when my exams are done with.

[Nanbanjin]

Nice but I believe there is copyright on some of these prints.

「各データベースに含まれるすべての情報について、著作権法により認められる場合を除き、無断で転載・転用 することを禁止します。」

This means you're not allowed to reproduce the information in the database without prior permission.
In this case we have (now) given reference to the original database and have simply provided links to make searching easier for non-Japanses literate users. No doubt this is a tricky area legally. I think we have a few legal experts on this forum (Old Warrior is a lawyer I think). Any clarification available? Would providing the links but not including the [img] tags make things better?

[Andoru]

Great thread Nanbanjin! Weird how Musashi is written as 無三四
which seems meaningless ("No Three Four"??)


here's another one; you'll have to click to placate Hamish.
http://133.9.157.146/web50/image/enpaku/nishikie/005-0/005-0300.jpg

This calls for a new caption contest.

[shotoblogger]

「各データベースに含まれるすべての情報について、著作権法により認められる場合を除き、無断で転載・転用 することを禁止します。」

This means you're not allowed to reproduce the information in the database without prior permission.
In this case we have (now) given reference to the original database and have simply provided links to make searching easier for non-Japanses literate users. No doubt this is a tricky area legally. I think we have a few legal experts on this forum (Old Warrior is a lawyer I think). Any clarification available? Would providing the links but not including the [img] tags make things better?
There is a discussion of this over at the Karate Underground:
http://www.karatethejapaneseway.com/karate_underground/viewtopic.php?p=31849&highlight=copyright#31849 with a link to online copyright info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation _Act

Over at the Karate Underground, they asked the question, what if you nest an img tag that points to the original server inside an anchor tag that hyperlinks back to the original site. Then you're neither removing content or claiming it for your own...

Anyhow, I think it's important to remember that copyright laws are meant to protect profits, not control over information--it's about money, not plagiarism. The very act of making something available to the public at large is implies that the information is meant to be disseminated. So, issues of litigation aside, from an ethical standpoint, I don't think it is really wrong to post things from other sources as long as (1) the sources are properly identified and (2) you are not cutting into someone's profits (i.e., the thing you are posting is, e.g., an out-of-print, almost-impossile-to-find book).

[Nanbanjin]

There is a discussion of this over at the Karate Underground:
http://www.karatethejapaneseway.com/karate_underground/viewtopic.php?p=31849&highlight=copyright#31849 with a link to online copyright info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Limitation _Act

Over at the Karate Underground, they asked the question, what if you nest an img tag that points to the original server inside an anchor tag that hyperlinks back to the original site. Then you're neither removing content or claiming it for your own...

Anyhow, I think it's important to remember that copyright laws are meant to protect profits, not control over information--it's about money, not plagiarism. The very act of making something available to the public at large is implies that the information is meant to be disseminated. So, issues of litigation aside, from an ethical standpoint, I don't think it is really wrong to post things from other sources as long as (1) the sources are properly identified and (2) you are not cutting into someone's profits (i.e., the thing you are posting is, e.g., an out-of-print, almost-impossile-to-find book).

Thanks for the information.

I should have made the sources clearer in the first place.
It would also be unethical to make profit from something that somebody else is making publically available.

The other thing to keep in mind especially when posting information from Japanese sites is that ethics and legality aside, sometimes etiquette demands that you ask first.
I sometimes post infomation from the Ichinikai site in Japan, but i have made a point of getting permission for this from the webmaster of that site.

[Nanbanjin]

Great thread Nanbanjin! Weird how Musashi is written as 無三四
which seems meaningless ("No Three Four"??)



This calls for a new caption contest.

I think it might be because the name is from a dramatisation.

Some people out there will be familiar with 六三四の剣
In this case the story is not about Miyamoto Musashi, but the name Musashi is seen in another form.

[indigo0086]

I've always wondered why old japanese art had such grotesque proportions.

[Nanbanjin]

I've always wondered why old japanese art had such grotesque proportions.

Hahaha. If you're after grotesque proportions in Japanese woolblocks try googling for "shunga".

Here's an example (for the sake of decency I'll just give the link. People 18 and under need not proceed).
http://www.ukiyoe-gallery.com/ukiyoe/b388.jpg

[Andoru]

Bwahahahahaha! What are the kanji words for "shunga"?

[Nanbanjin]

Bwahahahahaha! What are the kanji words for "shunga"?

The system I am on doesn't have Japanese fonts installed.
Shun is spring as in the season. A similar usage is in baishun.
Ga is the same 'ga' as in 'manga'.

[indigo0086]

but why? Art usually imitates life, so why would most japanese art have hands that seem to be totally displaced from their wrists, toes as dextrous as fingers, and faces that are flat and abstractly undetailed?

[Nanbanjin]

but why? Art usually imitates life, so why would most japanese art have hands that seem to be totally displaced from their wrists, toes as dextrous as fingers, and faces that are flat and abstractly undetailed?

I'll post exhibit A again
http://www.ukiyoe-gallery.com/ukiyoe/b388.jpg

Well, if anyone decides to paint a picture of me with my wang out I want it looking massive (not that it isn't like that in reality anyway).

On the other hand, the art is abstract. The pictures that we are looking at are woodblock prints so there would have been technical reasons why the features would have been stylized. Also, these were in some ways the manga of their day, so what you are asking is like asking why Japanese draw cartoons with such big eyes.

[indigo0086]

I'll post exhibit A again
http://www.ukiyoe-gallery.com/ukiyoe/b388.jpg

Well, if anyone decides to paint a picture of me with my wang out I want it looking massive (not that it isn't like that in reality anyway).

On the other hand, the art is abstract. The pictures that we are looking at are woodblock prints so there would have been technical reasons why the features would have been stylized. Also, these were in some ways the manga of their day, so what you are asking is like asking why Japanese draw cartoons with such big eyes.

not necessarily. The ever so overused technique (or lack thereof) of drawing bit eyes were that with the early japanese anime and manga was that they were supposed to dislpay more emotion. While it was effective in the days where budgets and artistic imagination were scarce, nothing displays emotion more than the human face. Just look at the masks that noh actors wear. They manipulate the angle to create sublte changes to the viewer that signify emotion, they Don't just plop big eyes on a mask to get the same effect. Back in that time (and even today) companies lack talented artists or just don't want to or can't spend money on drawing details in faces (though it wouldnt' take much). That has a reason. If one or two artists drew this way in feudal times, than I would at least understand that they were the odd bunch. BUt the fact is that many artists had the same way of drawing, woodblock prints or freehand.

[shotoblogger]

but why? Art usually imitates life, so why would most japanese art have hands that seem to be totally displaced from their wrists, toes as dextrous as fingers, and faces that are flat and abstractly undetailed?
The development of art is totally unrelated to logic.

Visual reproduction is in part related to paradigms of sight--that is, to what people think they see, regardless of what they actually see. For example, in Europe no one understood the concept of perspective in art until the Renaissance. In China and Japan, no one understood perspective until someone made a Chinese translation of an Italian book about perspective.

There is some earlier Japanese art that is more accurately representational, but style and fashion are also factors in art development and the abstracted figures became the fashion.

[Infinity]

I'll post exhibit A again
http://www.ukiyoe-gallery.com/ukiyoe/b388.jpg

Well, if anyone decides to paint a picture of me with my wang out I want it looking massive (not that it isn't like that in reality anyway).

On the other hand, the art is abstract. The pictures that we are looking at are woodblock prints so there would have been technical reasons why the features would have been stylized. Also, these were in some ways the manga of their day, so what you are asking is like asking why Japanese draw cartoons with such big eyes.I was of the understanding that the eyes are the windows to the soul. Large eyes in manga illustrations, while an integral part of this genre, make it easy for the artist to reveal a characters’ spirit.

What would a large...wang as you say...be trying to portray about a character?

[indigo0086]

The development of art is totally unrelated to logic.

Visual reproduction is in part related to paradigms of sight--that is, to what people think they see, regardless of what they actually see. For example, in Europe no one understood the concept of perspective in art until the Renaissance. In China and Japan, no one understood perspective until someone made a Chinese translation of an Italian book about perspective.

There is some earlier Japanese art that is more accurately representational, but style and fashion are also factors in art development and the abstracted figures became the fashion.Thanks, that makes sense. Remembering some old european art that was totally devoide of perspective, I can see how the japanese didn't understand the concept. It's just so weird that one can see depth and angle with their eyes, but can't reproduce it. I would say that the artists were inexperienced, but they defenitely were talented artists.

Edit: You say that the development of art is unrelated to logic, but you explain how the development of japanese art as a logistic descovery. I think you mean the development of art styles are unrelated to logic.

[Nanbanjin]

What would a large...wang as you say...be trying to portray about a character?
Noting in particular. It's just to give guys like me something to relate to.

[Shiatsuman]

Noting in particular. It's just to give guys like me something to relate to.
You're a goat not a donkey.