which way will you vote? Kerry or Bush? [Archive]

MabahoMan

04-11-2004, 04:10 AM

What? Are you from Europe or something!?!?! Gore!?!?! that guy is a crackpot. He's nuts and would likely have have waited for the UN to give us permission to defend ourselves, or invite Osama to the White house for lunch so we could talk about it, just like Bill Clinton who had that Murderer Terrorist Babykiller Arafat over so many times. Look what good those talks did Israel.

Um, how many christians have you seen slaughter another human being on international TV, slaughter a man as if he were a butchered hog? Where have you seen christians dancing in the streets to celebrate the murder of innocent women and children.

Christian fascist- thats just dumb.

I would rather live among christians than among those animals, or among the Secular Taliban of the left who would seek to stamp out all traces of the Judeo-Christian beliefs that have made western civilization thrive as it has.

Wait till one of those Al Quedas decide to blow up London, then lets see how you feel.

Hisham

04-11-2004, 05:34 AM

the Islamo-Fascist world.
I would ve been pretty shoked if you voted Kerry.
I won't comment on the issues that you brought up on your posts for the simple fact that your oppinion is based solely on prejudice and propaganda.
I would suggest that you hear all the sides of a story before making a judgement,which obviously you are not doing and that makes your vision pretty narrow and irrelevant, no offence.
Anyway congratulations ,it seems that Bushe's crusade will continue.We ll see how humiliating other human beings will make you safer.If you just took the time to thoroughly research what you re saying ,you'd see through the games that are played all over this world, how human life has become so cheap, how making money justifies the suffering of others,or may be you just care about your own small world.
So again congratulations ,it s people like you and bush that make this world a better place.

LNGUYEN

04-11-2004, 06:17 AM

I don't understand why so many foreigner hate Bush. Yes, he decided to attack Taliban, bringing the lives back to Afghan who were fighting each other for so many years. He brought the Afghan women back into the society surface which were strictly prohibit during Taliban. Is that against Islam and that make him the enemy of Muslim? Before he invaded Afghanistan, he asked the Taliban to handover Bin Ladin. Did they do it, no. Is Bin Ladin a murderer? yes. So what do you expect, shake hands or kiss some ass to look like a saint in front of the world? If You started to talk about Human right in Guantanamo, Let see, because they were so nice and humane to prisoner, they released a terrorist who are now a major terrorist in Afghanistan again, as for respond to news channel, he said he lied to the American that he was innocent. That is what I don't want to happen again.

About Irag, jeezzz, Saddam could kill hundred thousand of his own citizen who were also Muslim too and that was Ok since I had not heard any protest again him in Middle East. He could reward for terrorist blowing themselves up, that was fine too since I had not heard any protest within the Muslim society. He built WMD and used it and nobody in Muslim society give a dam about it and when Bush invaded Irag, holy Cow, he was an idiot try to fight against the whole Muslim at all. the think I like is when Muslim terrorist killed a person in America, Europe, and Asia. We didn't call it "the attack again Christian World", and when the American attacked a person in Muslim World, He was labeled as "Attack again whole Muslim World". The incident about prisoner in Irag, I believed those people were prosecuted and in jail. How about those Muslim country, do you have a perfect humane society which is a role model for everyone followed? If no, why did you make such a big noise about Iraquis prisoner incident?

President Bush invaded Iraq without approval from United Nation. Big deal, every body for their own. Before, Hitler was not labeled as a threat until he almost conquered entire Europe, put French defensen system at shame, England were attacked night and day, Russian was alsmost terminated, then suddenly he was a threat. It is funny, isn't it?

Have you ever questioned if Bush is against Muslim World, why din't he attack all the Muslim countries? He is only going after terrorist, is that so hard to understand?

If you call him an idiot, please have the proofs to back up your claim.

Lloromannic

04-11-2004, 06:53 AM

Hey screw you guys!!! Bush is a good man. A man of values and conviction. He has kept america safe since 9-11 and brought the "jihad" to the doorstep of Al Queda and the Islamo-Fascist world. The man who protects Isreal, the only true democracy in the region.America has repudiated the left, repudiated France, Germany, and Belgium (the only allies that kerry thought mattered) reputiated Kofi Annan and the UN who decided to put Sudan in charge of Human rights and Syria on the security council.

How can Israel be a true democracy when a large part of it's population can not vote (palestinians are israelis until they get their country back). Don't you think that the reason the "Islamo-Fascists" seem to dislike the US is because of arrogant ignorant fascist persons like you?

America just gave the finger to the secular Taliban of the left.America has decided to reject John Kerry and his European values. Today is a great day!!!

So giving the finger to the secular (meaning non religious) taliban [which is sort of an oxymoron (two contradictory terms used together, like raggedly elegant)] therefore favouring the religious ("Islamo-Fascist") factions makes this a great day?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA? more like Hee-Haw-Hee-Haw-Hee-Haw.

litige

04-11-2004, 07:06 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA? more like Hee-Haw-Hee-Haw-Hee-Haw.

...BOUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
That one is so funny!

litige

04-11-2004, 07:08 AM

Bush is a good man. A man of values and conviction.

Yeah, kinda like a retard, with values 200 years old.

MabahoMan

04-11-2004, 07:17 AM

I would say that the fact that Bush was elected shows that your opinion that Americans always vote wit their pocket book is wrong. I admit that the economy is not the best right now. I also know that Kerry and the Democrats, in their desire to emulate Europe, would tax the hell out of the rich (which would not effect the bulk of American) and impliment many socialist programs that would do much to make things "fair." Who in America would not want free college, a cushy beaurocratic job until retirement , and money for every social program you could think of.

America is one of the few countries that will send its boys to die in some far off corner of ther world for the well being of another country. We will sacrifice our children for the ideas of freedom and democracy. For the right of an individual to persue "life, liberty, and . . . happiness." Ask an afgan woman who can now vote if she wishes we would have stayed home, ask the kurds in northern Iraq, ask the taiwanese and israel if they wish we would not back them up because the "world community" is against it.

Open your eyes. No other country will send their boys to to fight for something simply because it is right. Certainly not those appeasing nazi loving French who were bought off by Saddam. How can you believe that it is NOT a good thing for there to be democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Oh and I know that there are people making money off of the war, but that is just the business of war. sombody has to make bullets, and provide logistical support for the army. And if we were only after oil, as mny believe, why did we not just let Saddam buy us off too?

If america is so bad where are there millions of Mexicans and Chinese and Cubans risking life and limb to sneak into tho AMERICA & not FRANCE?

MabahoMan

04-11-2004, 07:22 AM

Hey, Lloromannic, I see a Mexican flag next to your name. Like I said, if america is such a piece of crap then why is everyone from your country trying to sneak into mine?

Wifenmummy

04-11-2004, 07:43 AM

mabahoman i like u! :) man i hate france! france is full of crap!

Lloromannic

04-11-2004, 08:06 AM

Hey, Lloromannic, I see a Mexican flag next to your name. Like I said, if america is such a piece of crap then why is everyone from your country trying to sneak into mine?
The USA are not crap. I have never said it and never will because it's not true, my response was directed towards you for what I percieve to be an arrogant opinion. My dislike towards arrogant people knows no borders or nationality. The reason that many mexicans go to the USA is that they percieve it as a better place and it might be, much of Mexico is still rural and "uncultured", but if it makes you feel better, if there was another developed country they could go to they would.

My school takes IGCSEs, for the English course I had to make a response to an article that said that many mexicans were racist. My form group is sadly a prime example of this. I was the only person who agreed with the article.
This is what I wrote, you probably need the original article to understand it better but anyway:
Mr Mack Donald, I thoroughly enjoyed your article “The Mexico City Brown Town Blues” published last month here in Chilango Magazine. However I would like to expand some of your points and challenge others.

Although racism indeed exists between mexicans, I feel that it is even more against foreigners. Although mexicans often act gently (some would say subserviently) in the presence of foreigners, particularly chalky complexioned ones, there is a deep resentment beneath the surface. This would become apparent if you found yourself at night in one of the poor barrios. Chances are any chalky would be robbed and/or killed in a matter of minutes.

Apart from this rather physical discrimination there is also one against other cultures. Especially USA’s culture. Although if you were to make a poll it would be unanimous that no other culture can be as macho or as chingona (and therefore ignorant and anachronic) as Mexico, there is a particular contempt towards the USA. If you ask any person chances are you will get either someone who would say it is the best culture ever or someone who will deny that the USA even has a culture at all. The former probably by someone who will be dressed (or try to be dressed) as an american youth. That person will probably say he is unique and will demonstrate it by wearing the same shoes as everyone in the USA does. He will also probably make himself even more different by writing on his shoes with a marker LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES. Should you attempt to tell him that, you will be labelled as a pinche gringo with no right to an opinion or in the case you are mexican as a pinche malinchista who has sold his country , just because you said he was dressed as a foreigner..

Partly responsible for it is a revisionist official history which never fails to point out the magnificence of Mexico, particularly the Aztec Empire, before the white foreigners came. However it always fails to mention that the Aztec Empire was not at all a benevolent empire, it ruled by fear and strength of arms. Furthermore, great pyramids or not, they never actually advanced from the Stone Age or used basic concepts like the wheel. When it was finally defeated, it was not by the Spanish with their guns, but by other indigenous tribes who had had enough of the oppression they had endured and saw Cortez as a way to get rid of the Aztec yoke. Had the Aztecs seen the other tribes as more than tribute-giving-cannon-fodder, Cortez would have never reached Tenochtitlan, much less conquered it.

Although Mexicans will not tolerate an insult to the madre patria by a foreigner, we do it all the time, if you truly love your country then you would certainly do whatever you can to make it a better place. You would certainly not use it as your private dumpster, you would respect it all the time, you would not go out draped in a flag only when the National Team wins, you would also attempt to personally make a difference, you would not proclaim “we won” when the only thing you did was sit in the couch eating bags of chips and drinking beer, whose containers you will throw away so they contaminate your oh so loved country.

As much as I liked your article, there is one thing I disagree with. Calling a waiter “joven” is certainly not the best way but it is a far cry from calling someone a “boy”. Joven is a neutral noun used when the parties are not certain of the other person’s age, not a racial slur like boy is.

Overall I thought your article was very well written and dares to speak of things that most people (as you said it) deny it even exists.

I hope that if there is a “Night of the Long Knives”, you will be spared.

litige

04-11-2004, 08:07 AM

I would say that the fact that Bush was elected shows that your opinion that Americans always vote wit their pocket book is wrong.

No, it only shows that half of the americans are either brainless or don't want to use their brain. [/QUOTE]

America is one of the few countries --->that will send its boys to die<------ (wow, what a proof of inteligence there) in some far off corner of ther world for the well being of another country. We will sacrifice our children for the ideas of freedom and democracy. For the right of an individual to persue "life, liberty, and . . . happiness."

Haeum, bush don't give squat about the well being of Irakies, but let me point this, This war costed hundeds of billions of dollar, those billions made many people die (including innocent), didn't made anything secure, AND (most importantly) could have erased the debt of the third world (They are the one suffering).

Ask an afgan woman who can now vote if she wishes we would have stayed home, ask the kurds in northern Iraq, ask the taiwanese and israel if they wish we would not back them up because the "world community" is against it.
The world community was not entirely against the war on terrorism in Afghanistan, but more opposed to the useless war(like every other war) in Irak.

Open your eyes. No other country will send their boys to to fight for something simply because it is right. Certainly not those appeasing nazi loving French who were bought off by Saddam. How can you believe that it is NOT a good thing for there to be democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm for democracy in every country, I think every one is for this. BUT, this was not the reason for war, AND, it's not by war you make it happen, it's by global consciousness awakening. And what do you mean by Nazi loving?

Oh and I know that there are people making money off of the war

I think one of those people is named George.

, but that is just the business of war.

what don't you have a heart??

If america is so bad where are there millions of Mexicans and Chinese and Cubans risking life and limb to sneak into tho AMERICA & not FRANCE?

It's not the US that is bad, it's the ones that controls it right now, and the ones that support him.

P.S. : I don't hate you because you support Bush, I just wished you could more easily understand there are other way around things then war and maximum profit. I just wics people would make the effort of thinking by themselves, and started searching the more respectful options the problems.

MabahoMan

04-11-2004, 08:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MabahoMan
I would say that the fact that Bush was elected shows that your opinion that Americans always vote wit their pocket book is wrong.

"No, it only shows that half of the americans are either brainless or don't want to use their brain. "

It shows that Americans believe in something greater than themselves & in leaving a better world for their children. It shows that we are not as selfish as most of the "world community" who will usually not budge unless they can get a Euro out of it.

Quote:
America is one of the few countries --->that will send its boys to die<------ (wow, what a proof of inteligence there) in some far off corner of ther world for the well being of another country. We will sacrifice our children for the ideas of freedom and democracy. For the right of an individual to persue "life, liberty, and . . . happiness."

"Haeum, bush don't give squat about the well being of Irakies, but let me point this, This war costed hundeds of billions of dollar, those billions made many people die (including innocent), didn't made anything secure, AND (most importantly) could have erased the debt of the third world (They are the one suffering)."

If bush did not give a crap about the Iraqis why are we still there. What exactly are we getting out of being there. Kerry cares even less about the iraqis because he would pull out & leave them to the wolves.

This war has cost alot, but what is the price of freedom? What is the price of of delivering a people from the brutal oppression of a murderous regime. Ask an iraqi if that is worth a billion dollars.

Quote:
Ask an afgan woman who can now vote if she wishes we would have stayed home, ask the kurds in northern Iraq, ask the taiwanese and israel if they wish we would not back them up because the "world community" is against it.

"The world community was not entirely against the war on terrorism in Afghanistan, but more opposed to the useless war(like every other war) in Irak."

Why is every war useless? Was it useless when we Kept saddam from keeping Kuwait? Was it useless when we kept the Communists out of South Korea? Was it useless when we saved France and the world from the fascists of germany & Japan? Twice for the Europeans. Was it wrong for us to fight for our own freedom? Is freedom in Iraq any less noble?
Quote:

Open your eyes. No other country will send their boys to to fight for something simply because it is right. Certainly not those appeasing nazi loving French who were bought off by Saddam. How can you believe that it is NOT a good thing for there to be democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"I'm for democracy in every country, I think every one is for this. BUT, this was not the reason for war, AND, it's not by war you make it happen, it's by global consciousness awakening. And what do you mean by Nazi loving?"

Democracy hardley ever comes about by some global awakening. Democracy & freedom is something that must be fought for to a certain extent due to the fact that a tyrannical government never just gives up power to the people just to do the right thing. Show me a free democracy for which not a drop of blood was spilled.

"Nazi loving?"
The Vichy government.

Quote:

Oh and I know that there are people making money off of the war

"I think one of those people is named George."

How?

Quote:
, but that is just the business of war.

"what don't you have a heart??"

Yeah. But will the food & bullets just magically appear for FREE?!?!

Quote:
If america is so bad where are there millions of Mexicans and Chinese and Cubans risking life and limb to sneak into tho AMERICA & not FRANCE?

"It's not the US that is bad, it's the ones that controls it right now, and the ones that support him."

What make you believe that?

"P.S. : I don't hate you because you support Bush, I just wished you could more easily understand there are other way around things then war and maximum profit. I just wics people would make the effort of thinking by themselves, and started searching the more respectful options the problems."

I am thinking for myself I have come to these logical comclusions.
__________________
Mowing the lawn is BLOWING MY MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

litige

04-11-2004, 09:17 AM

Sorry, you don't think.
You do not seem to have any value at all.
It's sad, I didn't point out thing that could be reached out in papers and statistic, but something that can be found within your heart, or your brain. You just prove you don't have a global consciousness at all. HOW CAN YOU BE FOR A WAR???????
Isn't it simple?? is there something worth a life? why would people die for no reason? Why would people accept to die for other? You believe in unwanted sacrifice?? Why would I kill for any other reason that immidiate survival?
It's so easy to take a gun and kill someone for a problem. BUT WHAT DO YOU GET???? Wouldn't you get it by other non-violent means? Is it worth the effort? Or do you just like to live thinking, there will always be war on the planet because I'm to lazy to do something that brings so much more? How can you explain your "boys" were not sent all the way to Rwanda to try and save lives? Or in Congo when about 4 millions people died in civil war, and more are dying every day? I rreally think you don't have heart or at least you haven't found it, I really wish you do one day. Don't be ashamed of being too selfish something, in truth, you must help yourself to be able to help other completely. But just ask you this question...would you like to die, knowing it's because of an other nation, trying to impose if way of thinking in a violent way? or would like to wait for a peaceful solution?

By the way, what's your age?

litige

04-11-2004, 09:23 AM

Democracy hardley ever comes about by some global awakening. Democracy & freedom is something that must be fought for to a certain extent due to the fact that a tyrannical government never just gives up power to the people just to do the right thing. Show me a free democracy for which not a drop of blood was spilled.

The Velvet Revolution.

MabahoMan

04-11-2004, 09:29 AM

28

Who WANTS to die (except for those muslims who blow them selves up to kills a few women and children and declare that they love dath more than we love life).

And now you see the fundamental difference between the right and the left. We both want what is best. The difference is that the left is feelings based and not based on rational thought. The right (at least in america) tends to think things through a little better.

Not all problems can be solved by talking about them. You don't appease a bully, you punch him in the nose.

Hey, don't get mad. Clarity of thought is alot more usefull than agreement.

MabahoMan

04-11-2004, 09:39 AM

litige

04-11-2004, 09:51 AM

Oh and Czechoslovakia. The end of communism in Europe came about because America won the cold war. Once the Soviet Union was through, the rest of those little communist states fell like dominos. This means that democracy in Czechoslovakie was the result of 50 years of armed conflict between the US and the USSR
Still, it was a bloodless democratic revolution. The only blood that was spilled, where the one of students offering flowers to riot police (they were beaten(spl?) by them).

litige

04-11-2004, 09:55 AM

Not all problems can be solved by talking about them. You don't appease a bully, you punch him in the nose.

Still, if you had a chance to make a bully a peaceful person, would you do it?
I think your answer is yes, I just think that punching him won't help him alot (well if he's not bright). Please tell the thruth, don't you think punching a bully makes you a bully, so that in this case you would be fighting what you don't like, be becoming the thing you don't like? if, yes, please specify why.

Hai_hai

04-11-2004, 10:28 AM

I would ve been pretty shoked if you voted Kerry.
I won't comment on the issues that you brought up on your posts for the simple fact that your oppinion is based solely on prejudice and propaganda...
Al-queda supporter alert.

Wifenmummy

04-11-2004, 11:08 AM

Still, if you had a chance to make a bully a peaceful person, would you do it?
I think your answer is yes, I just think that punching him won't help him alot (well if he's not bright). Please tell the thruth, don't you think punching a bully makes you a bully, so that in this case you would be fighting what you don't like, be becoming the thing you don't like? if, yes, please specify why.

punching a bully is going down to the bullys level... its better to not stoop as low as the bully...
my hubby seems to think that saddam was iraqs glue.. he had all thoose muslims under his finger and under control... kinda like a dam wall... now iraq is closer to hell on earth..

Kaoru

04-11-2004, 02:55 PM

Yeah, kinda like a retard, with values 200 years old. There is nothing wrong with good old fashioned values. I'd much rather them, than the so-called "values" of today. There is nothing wrong with being classy and having good old fashioned values. Young kids today often are SO rude. Not to mention all the trashy teen behavior and adult behavior seen on TV these days that are shaping people's real life behaviors. Oh man.. Don't even get me started. It is not bad to want clean values. :)

Kaoru

KhawMengLee

04-11-2004, 03:28 PM

The war in Afghanistan was justified. Al Qaida was there. The war in Iraq was a fiasco and greed is definately an issue.

You don't sacrifice thousands of innocent iraqis to get one guilty man.

Iraq is a volatile state. Saddam, a Sunni muslim, is a moderate in religious terms and the majority of the population are Shiites(hard line fundamentalists). Saddam, as much of a bastard as he was, was keeping Al Qaida out of Iraq because the two hate each other(as per result of the Iran-Iraq war).

The invasion of Iraq has now pitted both local Sunnis and Insurgent/Local Al Qaida fighters into the fray. So much for keeping down terror.

************************************************** ****

As for greed. Lets not forget Bush and Cheney's onvious link to Haliburton(Who have been awarded uncontested bids to rebuild iraq). Who now face a major FBI investigation into overcharging the American taxpayers for services in Iraq.

Democracy cannot be forced upon others. It is a goal that must be reached/fought for by the local population.

Hisham

04-11-2004, 08:49 PM

punching a bully is going down to the bullys level... its better to not stoop as low as the bully...
my hubby seems to think that saddam was iraqs glue.. he had all thoose muslims under his finger and under control... kinda like a dam wall... now iraq is closer to hell on earth..
That s why he had the full support of the US goverment before he touched Kowait,not even the support he was the agent of the US goverment ,remember the Irak vs Iran war.
But like any mafia ,when the bosses percieve you as useless they will get rid of you by any means.

Mabahoman if you really think that the US military goes around the world fighting for the sake of humanity and freedom ,then you should see less of those propaganda movies.
How long did it take for the US goverment to give the green light to the military to do something about Bosnia,what happened in Ruwanda and the forgotten Chechnia?(question "what are the benefits we can get by sending troops there?"),how long has Saddam been in power without any US government bothering him over the years ,just look at what the US government did in countries of south america (Noriega ,Pinochet).
Soldiers come from the people ,from middle and lower class to be specific.Many are desillusioned when they see through the politicians games.
Wake up man , the US as most countries on this planet are not governed by the people ,financial powermongers are the ones looking after our dear planet.
You can choose to stick to what your told by biased media and be a sheep or set youreself free by reading between the lines and build up your own view.
Sadly since Vietnam (who benefited from that war?certainly nor the vietnamese nor the families of the 58.000 US KIAs) american soldiers who i must stress again on the fact that most of em did/do believe that they're fighting for freedom are dying to make a certain elite stronger.Your hate should be focused on the latter.
Unfortunately human values only exist in speeches and movies ,money is what this world is about,see it from the point of view of WallStreet and you ll have most of the world issues figured out.
Have you ever been to a "third world country" and sat and talked with its people?by the words that you're typing ,i don t think so.Get out man!you're living in a shell and get rid of your one sided views,the world is not white and black, the world is grey.
What do i know about islam and muslims?, and what do i know about there history,there countries,there cultures....etc?These are one of the many questions you should be asking yourself before you start giving lectures about world politics.
If there's anything that a modern country gives to its cityzens ,it's easy access to information from whatever source.Do your homework and don't rely only on what you're told and what you're made to see.
Live your freedom ,and here i'm pointing to the mind's freedom.Don't be just another consumer ,a statistic be human in the macro sense of the word.
Humanity of the self and in general is taken for granted, well it s not! we have to work at it everyday,Kendo sould help you with that.
To go back to the tittle of this thread ,Bush is but the tip of the iceberg.This goes for all the heads of states of the world,think about it.

Oh about the french and german governments,i totally agree that they weren't upset because poor irakies were suffering but actually because they lost the contracts they had with Saddam .
The US big corporations suffered a big setback obviously because of the effects of Desert storm and not getting rid of Saddam at that time,now thanks to the saccrifice of US soldiers they claimed the Iraki market back,the only problem as Wifenmummy s husband pointed out Saddam s glue is gone with him.There s a lot to be said on this issue but i went far enough of this thread's subject and for that i appologies.

Hai_hai

05-11-2004, 02:00 AM

Hisham,
You are a supporter of Osama bin Laden and Al-queda?

ShudoKan Kai

05-11-2004, 02:17 AM

Hisham,
You are a supporter of Osama bin Laden and Al-queda?Hai Hai are you familiar with the term polarizing? Sentences like that are in no way constructive and frankly I don't see any humour in this. Humour I thought you were know for.
If you don't like what someone is saying reasoning is the better option.

Hai_hai

05-11-2004, 02:31 AM

Hai Hai are you familiar with the term polarizing? Sentences like that are in no way constructive and frankly I don't see any humour in this. Humour I thought you were know for.
If you don't like what someone is saying reasoning is the better option.
It is a real question. There are peaceful Muslims and non-peaceful Muslims. Some Muslims who are peaceful don't agree with US policy, and there are others who are not peaceful and believe in the "holy war" against the US. Hisham is making statements that border on indirectly supporting Osama bin Laden's jihad.

JHusch

05-11-2004, 04:41 AM

As for greed. Lets not forget Bush and Cheney's onvious link to Haliburton(Who have been awarded uncontested bids to rebuild iraq). Who now face a major FBI investigation into overcharging the American taxpayers for services in Iraq.
Dude, Cheney used to work for Haliburton, the money he is receiving is his retirement.

I would certainly hope that if I was a VP or GM of such a large, successful company that i would be able to draw such a large retirement check.

And if Halliburton puts in a bid for a job, and it is uncontested due to other companies not being able to do that job for lower then the price given by that company, why is that wrong?

And why would the FBI investigate over taxation? In our government that would be the job of Congress and/or a Special Committee made up of congressmen and senators.

Could you please give us your sources of this information? I would love to be able to see where you are getting this. And if it is from Michael Moore.....Glad to see you bought into the propaganda.

Wifenmummy

05-11-2004, 06:09 AM

Lloromannic

05-11-2004, 06:41 AM

There is nothing wrong with good old fashioned values. I'd much rather them, than the so-called "values" of today. There is nothing wrong with being classy and having good old fashioned values. Young kids today often are SO rude. Not to mention all the trashy teen behavior and adult behavior seen on TV these days that are shaping people's real life behaviors. Oh man.. Don't even get me started. It is not bad to want clean values. :)

Kaoru
The grass is always greener on the other side Kaoru. It's also the retro effect which makes us yearn for the times gone by. The values 200-100 years ago were not better than those today. Gentlemanly conduct at it's base was veiled chauvinism and mysoginous conduct. It goes against my belief that women are just as good as men and don't need special privileges to mask the social inequality. Many of my favourite writers are from that period and as much as I like them, they were elitist. Mass education was not available in those times and the educated people could not care less for those uneducated. The rich people were very rich and the poor people very poor, governments were totalitarian regimes who made war on a whim, actually we haven't progressed much since then. Pining for the values gone will not bring them back, nothing will, they are outdated and useless for our times.

shotobouv

05-11-2004, 06:51 AM

good clean values is a must in a world that is full of such crap!
theres tons of propaganda out there... michael moore is interesting to watch but i dont buy most of it..
talking about how its wrong that america went into iraq wont change a thing... its already been done...
what was kerry going to do about it? was he leaving troops there or bringing them back? (jus curious)
the world is afraid of bush (is it not?) mostly coz he took down saddam and cake walked straight into another country without UN approval? now u have to say Bush has some HUGE BALLS for that! LOL!
of course bush would have to wait for the ecomony to pick up again to charge into korea or iran i dont think he will...From what Kerry was saying, is that if his policy was followed the US could pull out of Iraq. Kerry never defined his policy, it could have been getting support from France, Germany and Russia, who are now being looked at in a UN investigation of the oil for food program. France and Germany came out and said that they don't care if Kerry was elected they would not support the war anyway.

So, Kerry would continue with the same plan as Bush, but again Kerry never said.

I forget the exact number of UN resolutions that Saddam violated and war could have resulted under Clinton.

I wonder if people remember what the president of France did after coming into office? Detonated 2 nukes in the south pacific, against UN treaties.

Did anyone hear about France at war in Africa defending the coaco bean? That happened at the same time as the Iraq invasion.

Truth, what is truth?

litige

05-11-2004, 07:26 AM

There is nothing wrong with good old fashioned values. I'd much rather them, than the so-called "values" of today. There is nothing wrong with being classy and having good old fashioned values. Young kids today often are SO rude. Not to mention all the trashy teen behavior and adult behavior seen on TV these days that are shaping people's real life behaviors. Oh man.. Don't even get me started. It is not bad to want clean values. :)

Kaoru

I'm more talking about the Constitution, espcially, Amendment number 2
"Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

It's more than 200 years old, but still people say in America that have to do it, because it's written there.

Also look at the Fourth
"Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Wich was obviously violated during the war in Irak.

litige

05-11-2004, 07:34 AM

Could you please give us your sources of this information? I would love to be able to see where you are getting this. And if it is from Michael Moore.....Glad to see you bought into the propaganda.

Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Pronunciation: "prä-p&-'gan-d&, "prO-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effect
- pro·pa·gan·dist /-dist/ noun or adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·tic /-"gan-'dis-tik/ adjective
- pro·pa·gan·dis·ti·cal·ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

Please look at entry number 2. If we go by the dictionnary, everyone is doing propaganda, every time we speak!
Now, I would say that Micheal Moore passed information, for the purpose to help the residents of the United-States decide for who to vote. So in my sense, it's not bad (As far as I know, he didn't insulted him in the movie).

Wifenmummy

05-11-2004, 08:19 AM

From what Kerry was saying, is that if his policy was followed the US could pull out of Iraq. Kerry never defined his policy, it could have been getting support from France, Germany and Russia, who are now being looked at in a UN investigation of the oil for food program. France and Germany came out and said that they don't care if Kerry was elected they would not support the war anyway.

So, Kerry would continue with the same plan as Bush, but again Kerry never said.

I forget the exact number of UN resolutions that Saddam violated and war could have resulted under Clinton.

I wonder if people remember what the president of France did after coming into office? Detonated 2 nukes in the south pacific, against UN treaties.

Did anyone hear about France at war in Africa defending the coaco bean? That happened at the same time as the Iraq invasion.

Truth, what is truth?

thanks for the info.. i thought his plan was to pull out of iraq but then yeah what happens next? the opposition party here didnt win the election and they wanted to pull australian forces out of iraq...
i cant stand france..... i suppose france went into africa when they thought no one would care and everyones to busy with iraq.. typical.. no balls!

KhawMengLee

05-11-2004, 03:43 PM

Dude, Cheney used to work for Haliburton, the money he is receiving is his retirement.

I would certainly hope that if I was a VP or GM of such a large, successful company that i would be able to draw such a large retirement check.

And if Halliburton puts in a bid for a job, and it is uncontested due to other companies not being able to do that job for lower then the price given by that company, why is that wrong?

And why would the FBI investigate over taxation? In our government that would be the job of Congress and/or a Special Committee made up of congressmen and senators.

Could you please give us your sources of this information? I would love to be able to see where you are getting this. And if it is from Michael Moore.....Glad to see you bought into the propaganda.

Not Michael Moore, tho I did enjoy the film. If you look back at news on Yahoo news there was quite a few articles on this subject.

Dick Cheney denied there was any link between Halliburton getting contracts and his office. At the start of this year there was an article(yahoo news) about an email directly from his office instructing the military to award a particular contract to Haliburton.

One notable one was the 'ghost' freights issue. Where Halliburton was charging the Govt. after driving empty trucks up and down Iraq. The drivers spoke out because they were dying for nothing. This wasn't driving with an empty rig to an area and then picking up something, this was driving to the area and then driving back with nothing on the cargo hold for both trips.

Then there was the case being investigated where an Australian catering firm was awarded a subcontract, then it was cancelled due to them not paying enough kickbacks to the Halliburton employee involved in hiring them.

Halliburton has been suspect and under investigation for overcharging taxpayers for the job in Iraq. Its also suspiscious that key members in your Govt. have strong links to the company and at the same time it is not unfeasable they have a hidden vested interest there.

GBN

05-11-2004, 04:49 PM

Wow this thread has become as entertaining as anything on usenet. In one corner we have the Bush-can-do-no-wrong camp versus pretty much the rest of the world.

The pro-Bush side says, "leave him alone, it's not his fault the rest of the world sucks. He's doing his mentally-challenged best to make the world safe for America's economy." While the otherside says, "he's a hypocrite and a dangerous fascist."

Both sides truely believe their positions and in their better moments try and reason with some sort of civility.

Either way, the election is over. We'll just have to wait and see what happens now. If I lived in Iran, the Sudan, or North Korea I'd be selling my house and moving far away now.

Brian

ben spain

05-11-2004, 07:09 PM

Being in the UK, it is clear to the majority of the people I talk to that Bush is though to be a puppet of the administration as a whole - and as such takes all the flack (which is his job I guess). As to whether Kerry would be the same - who knows?!!

My opinion in a nut shell is that Bush was justified to go after Osama, and Sadam was a danger - but unlike in Afghanistan where the people were with the forces there and supported his cause, he completely f*%£$d up in Iraq - as is blindingly obvious to any sane person today. The world as a whole should of made far more progress in the years after the first Iraq war and helped the people get rid of Sadam themselves. At the start of the campaign, when the soldiers went into Iraq to remove Sadam the people were hugely grateful. Huge errors on the administrations part have turned this open affection into hatred.

I completely agree with the statements that A) you can NEVER enforce democracy - it has to be wanted by the people to be successful and B) no one man is worth all this loss of human life.

I also think it is VERY dangerous for America to mix Christian values with a war against an Islamic state. This does show a Christianity vs. Islam war - whether this is the case or not.

Also extremists are extremists - and when Christians ran through the world killing 'non-believers' during the crusades they were just as wrong as any others.

Hisham

05-11-2004, 08:14 PM

It is a real question. There are peaceful Muslims and non-peaceful Muslims. Some Muslims who are peaceful don't agree with US policy, and there are others who are not peaceful and believe in the "holy war" against the US. Hisham is making statements that border on indirectly supporting Osama bin Laden's jihad.
I'm sure you know why i wouldn't answer you before,this last post that i quoted is not an empty comment so here is my answer:No i'm no supporter of Ben Laden or any kind of agression acts ,i thought i made that clear in my posts.I believe in universal human values and i consider myself a cityzen of the world .
For the record Jihad is a profound and large concept and war in it is waged only to defend against agressors ,in islam provoking somebody is a sin, clearly stated in the Coran (there's even a verse where calling people names is prohibited) and don't go quoting a verse from it like some people do without understanding the context and reading the whole surat .Those muslims who attack innocents are ignorants choosing the easy way out,instead of using there brains to find ways to educate there people so that there countries get back to the light of civilization,a long term venture which will take much Jihad(effort).
Again as we all know it's pretty easy to destroy than to build on solid basis.
Well i hope that answered your question Hai Hai.

ShudoKan Kai

05-11-2004, 08:40 PM

Hai_hai

06-11-2004, 02:28 AM

I'm sure you know why i wouldn't answer you before,this last post that i quoted is not an empty comment so here is my answer:No i'm no supporter of Ben Laden or any kind of agression acts ,i thought i made that clear in my posts.I believe in universal human values and i consider myself a cityzen of the world .
For the record Jihad is a profound and large concept and war in it is waged only to defend against agressors ,in islam provoking somebody is a sin, clearly stated in the Coran (there's even a verse where calling people names is prohibited) and don't go quoting a verse from it like some people do without understanding the context and reading the whole surat .Those muslims who attack innocents are ignorants choosing the easy way out,instead of using there brains to find ways to educate there people so that there countries get back to the light of civilization,a long term venture which will take much Jihad(effort).
Again as we all know it's pretty easy to destroy than to build on solid basis.
Well i hope that answered your question Hai Hai.

Well since you stated it for the record, that's fine. There are direct supporters, sympathizers (people who wouldn't perform acts of aggression but support the activity), and non-supporters. I can't tell since you are from Morocco, a country known for having peaceful Muslims but have had recent "extremist" Muslim activity.

Hisham

06-11-2004, 05:28 AM

Well since you stated it for the record, that's fine. There are direct supporters, sympathizers (people who wouldn't perform acts of aggression but support the activity), and non-supporters. I can't tell since you are from Morocco, a country known for having peaceful Muslims but have had recent "extremist" Muslim activity.

Every country has seen or is seeing some extremists activity be it religious,nationalistic or racist ,unfortunately Morocco is no exeption as it was proven by the bombing that took place in Casablanca.Poverty and ignorance makes it easy for some people to manipulate others, and i think this to be true wherever you go.

Kaoru

06-11-2004, 04:17 PM

The grass is always greener on the other side Kaoru. It's also the retro effect which makes us yearn for the times gone by. The values 200-100 years ago were not better than those today. Gentlemanly conduct at it's base was veiled chauvinism and mysoginous conduct. It goes against my belief that women are just as good as men and don't need special privileges to mask the social inequality.
I don't see such things as opening a door for a girl/lady, standing when a lady enters a room or raising a hat to them or other such pleasentries as chauvinistic or as special priviledges. Most of these things have gone out the window because of feminists. My Dad has told me of so-called "ladies" who have yelled at him for opening a door for them.
What is wrong with that? I think a guy can be respectful of a girl/lady and not be chauvinistic, if they are taught not to think girls are worth nothing. And, I think a girl can be taught to think the same of a guy.
I just think it is a shame for chivelrous conduct to die out. It can survive in a modern form, if it is allowed. But sadly, guys often don't want to be polite to girls, and girls often try too hard to be just like guys.There is nothing wrong with being a girl. I believe in equal rights and everything with it. But, I am not opposed to a guy being a gentleman.

Oh and also, there where codes for girls to follow too, and some of those are just good manners. Some though ARE outdated. hahaha, You should see this article I read from the oh, 40's I think it was, on how to be a good wife. Oh MY. It is so funny! Sme of it, yeah, I think it should be like, but some well, waaay out of date. I think a girl today would throw something at a guy who actually expected it!

Anyway, yes and no for me, if the values 100-200 are just as good today as they where then. I think some are outdated, but some, we could really use now. Ah well...

Many of my favourite writers are from that period and as much as I like them, they were elitist. Same here. Yeah, I agree for the most part on that. There was definately a class system back then. Some ideas they had are really different.

Mass education was not available in those times and the educated people could not care less for those uneducated. The rich people were very rich and the poor people very poor, governments were totalitarian regimes who made war on a whim, actually we haven't progressed much since then. That is very true. I think those days would have been very tough to live in, you happened to be of the poor set. And, a girl most of the time, was not educated as a boy was. Not many options were available to girls then. Yes, some things are just better left in the past. I think governments all over are never gonna learn to talk first and solve instead of fight. Sigh.

Pining for the values gone will not bring them back, nothing will, they are outdated and useless for our times. No, you're right, pining for them won't bring them back. But, I think many of them are not outdated and useless for our times. If people tried harder to be more polite and remember the old values, maybe things would clean up just a little. Haha... Wishful thinking though. Ah well... :)

Kaoru

Lloromannic

07-11-2004, 10:39 AM

I don't see such things as opening a door for a girl/lady, standing when a lady enters a room or raising a hat to them or other such pleasentries as chauvinistic or as special priviledges
The thing was that in those times women were considered glorified poodles. You had them made up pretty and you showed how good and courteous you were.

My Dad has told me of so-called "ladies" who have yelled at him for opening a door for them.
I've met them too. Only a few of them. Once I saw a woman having trouble carrying many of the most crass and tasteless clothing I've ever seen. I offer her help and I am called a sexist pig and I am "kindly" informed that she can do it alone. Three seconds later one of her newly bought clothing falls to the ground. Having no appettite for abuse I don't move. She glowers at me and asks: "Why don't you help me?" I answer "weren't you able to do it alone?", she calls me a rude **** and spits at me.

There was definately a class system back then.
There was definately a "you are poor, I am rich, that's how it should be" attitude those days

Wishful thinking though. Ah well... :)
Why should it stay as wishful thinking. It is up to us to make a difference. If I ever need to have children to fulfill a marriage contract I will make sure to educate them to the best of my abilities. And they will start doing kendo as soon as they can walk.

Jon P

07-11-2004, 02:57 PM

ahh I hate politics. Especially this year! They both annoyed me. wooo go nadar.

Kaoru

10-11-2004, 10:17 AM

The thing was that in those times women were considered glorified poodles. You had them made up pretty and you showed how good and courteous you were.
Ahahahahaha!!! :D :D I couldn't stop laughing when I read that! Glorfied Poodles....had them made up pretty... hahahaha!! So FUNNY! Sorry, I can't help myself. :D I'm going to run that one by my family and friends, you know. hehehe!
That was priceless!! (Ok, you can tell me to shut up if you want. But it was so darned funny!)

I guess I am too much a girl, because whenever I see the beautful dresses from back then, I wish I could dress pretty like that just once, and see what it was like to be treated properly according to the etiquette of those days. I can't help but be curious... :D (Of course, minus the guy saying that girls are too stupid to understand men's affairs and that sort of thing. Trust me, I believe in the same rights and everything for girls as you do.)

BTW, I grew up with Poodles(I love Poodles!), and I have a new very spoiled girl poodle my Mom and Grandma just bought for me who I named Sakura Usa-hana.(さくら　うさはんあ）　So watch it! :D

I've met them too. Only a few of them. Once I saw a woman having trouble carrying many of the most crass and tasteless clothing I've ever seen. I offer her help and I am called a sexist pig and I am "kindly" informed that she can do it alone. Three seconds later one of her newly bought clothing falls to the ground. Having no appettite for abuse I don't move. She glowers at me and asks: "Why don't you help me?" I answer "weren't you able to do it alone?", she calls me a rude **** and spits at me. Ahahaha!! That was the best story! Funny she had the nerve to ask why you weren't helping after she was so rude to you when you offered in the first place. I don't blame you for just standing there watching. Not to be mean, but it served her right! I liked your reply. :D

There was definately a "you are poor, I am rich, that's how it should be" attitude those days You put that so well. Agreed!

Why should it stay as wishful thinking. It is up to us to make a difference. That's true. I forgot about that. :)

If I ever need to have children to fulfill a marriage contract I will make sure to educate them to the best of my abilities. "Need" to have children? haha, I never heard it put that way before. :D And fulfill a marriage contract? Do you mean you think it is a must or something? I never thought of that way before. Had to ask... Was curious! And, me too. If I get married and have kids, I want to do the same!

And they will start doing kendo as soon as they can walk. Somehow, I think all us Kenshi must want this. :D

Kaoru

Lloromannic

10-11-2004, 10:38 AM

"Need" to have children? haha, I never heard it put that way before. :D And fulfill a marriage contract? Do you mean you think it is a must or something? I never thought of that way before. Had to ask... Was curious! And, me too. If I get married and have kids, I want to do the same!
I intend to become a househusband, in oreder to do that comfortably I need to marry a rich woman, hopefully one who works full time as a lawyer or politician (first gentleman doesn't sound so shabby), but someone from a rich family is also OK. Now in the second case it is likely that the marriage will be an arranged affair, in many of those cases there are certain "conditions" to be fulfilled by the parties, some of the most common include a generous dowry and children. Sort of a company merger on a smaller scale.

I guess I am too much a girl, because whenever I see the beautful dresses from back then, I wish I could dress pretty like that just once, and see what it was like to be treated properly according to the etiquette of those days. I can't help but be curious... :D (Of course, minus the guy saying that girls are too stupid to understand men's affairs and that sort of thing. Trust me, I believe in the same rights and everything for girls as you do.)
Don't worry, I know what you mean. I think I am the only person in my school (no uniform) who still wears shirts, proper ones (buttons, neck, ironing, etc), shoes and boots (dress ones). Although to be fair it's been 3 years since I ran a comb through my hair.