When is it time to test?

[hyuna]

Lately, I have been thinking about when it is appropriate to test and I find myself quite conflicted over it.

We do not have sensei at our club, so we cannot wait for someone to tell us when to test. We have to decide for ourselves with the input of the other people at the club.

I do not like to test before I feel that I have a decent chance at passing. If I have no chance, I do not want to waste sensei and other people's time. Test day is long enough and crowded enough already. Also, I do not want to shame the dojo if I am not good enough ("They think THAT is what <whatever rank> is supposed to be like?!?!?!"). To want to stand up and take center stage to be judged when one is not up to par seems arrogant, to me.

But, I feel there are logical reasons to test even if you cannot pass. For one, getting used to the test environment makes you more comfortable with taking tests, which makes it easier to test in the future. Also, I always learn a lot in tests. I have always learned more from failing a test than passing a test, but that is probably true by definition because knowing why you failed a test teaches you what you have to do to improve, whereas knowing why you passed a test merely tells you what you can do acceptably right now, without necessarily creating any insight as to what needs to be improved next. Moreover, I am never in a position to know if I am good enough or not. I am the rank below that which I am testing for, so obviously my judgement is no good in the matter. So my opinion of if I can pass or not is not worth that much. This also applies to juniors who seek my advice: I am only 3-dan right now, so my opinion is of limited value.

I do not like to ask sensei about testing because it seems presumptuous. In normal situations, I think sensei lets you know, even if not explicitly. But, I do not see sensei very often, so sometimes I ask anyway. It is difficult to understand the unspoken messages when you do not see someone frequently. When I do so, I do not get straight answers. Anyway, I am not sure it really matters: there have been situations where a sensei who encouraged me to test is one who failed me during the test.

I guess the bottom line is that it seems to my brain that one should test on every opportunity. It is a learning opportunity, and what have you got to lose? But my heart feels that it is inappropriate and arrogant to test simply because a test is being offered, without any consideration of if one actually deserves the rank or not.

This does not just apply to me, but also the juniors in the club. I am not sure how to guide them on this subject. I myself do not know how to act, so I do not know what to tell them.

Of course, one can just say that rank is just rank, and I should not worry about it at all. Just practice more. Well, for the most part I agree. But we can, and probably should, test, so it is something that I need to think about. Even so, tests are only twice a year, so it is not something I think about very often, so I do not feel I am putting too much energy into worrying about testing (vs improving).

I would welcome people's thoughts on the subject.

[Masahiro]

I think you can only follow your heart in this matter. I don't see any harm in failing to pass a certain dan test. If anything it will give you a better idea what to improve on next time around. You can only gain from the experience, why not? good luck on the test!

[JByrd]

Arthur, I've asked myself the same questions many times. Of course I'm also just 3 Dan, so I'm at least as baffled about the answers as you are. :)

First, I don't think it is presumptuous to talk with a sensei about testing. As long as your attitude is good (and yours seems fine to me) any Kendo question is OK to ask. Of course the question is not "will I pass 4 Dan?" but rather "what elements do I need to pass 4 Dan, and do you see evidence of them in my Kendo at this time?" Some (incredibly nice) teachers in the PNKF went out of their way to help me pass 3 Dan once they knew I was seriously trying for it.

I've failed my share of tests, and I understand just what you mean when you say you do not want to waste anyone's time. My feeling is that if you have been practicing regularly you should test regularly. The only way I would skip a "regularly scheduled" test is if I knew I had not put in a reasonable amount of work since the last time I tried.

I would encourage you to try for 4 Dan. And whichever way it goes, please tell us about your experience. Good luck!

[Neil Gendzwill]

There seems to be 2 attitudes among sensei. The most common is "go for it, what the heck". The other is to hold people back until passing is almost a dead certainty. I think you just have to sort out for yourself which approach you want to take with students. At least they don't have to travel to test. Whenever I consider testing, I also consider whether I want to spend 500 dollars just for experience.

As for your 4th dan test - you're getting into a fuzzy area where sensei may not tell you if you're ready or not. They may feel you should be able to figure this out yourself. If you feel ready, go for it. Then if you pass, good. If you fail, next time you can evaluate whether you think your kendo has improved enough to try again.

[mark]

We have had the same discussion in our dojo for the last several years without resolution. We have both of the camps that Neil described. Nevertheless, at several hundred dollars a pop, I suspect that if you feel that you are really not ready you will likely invest your time and money in a seminar that will do more to improve your kendo than failling an exam.
One of the hardest parts for me is letting go. I currently think that my job is training as hard as I can until I believe I am ready for an exam, meet all the bureaucratic requirements, show up to the exam in my best form, and perform to the best of my ability. From then on it is not my problem examinators are there to judge whether I am up to code. Unfortunately, my image of what the code is and theirs might not be the same. The hard part for me is letting go, and surrendering to the examinators and their process. I keep on getting stuck up on thoughts such as " did they notice ..., I wish I had ..., were they asleep..., was I judged properly...,how did I compare to ..., how come I / they passed even though.., were they too slack/hard....". Maybe one day I will figure out flow.

On a side issue, has your view of gradings and exams changed over time?

[hyuna]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their comments and encouragement!

On a side issue, has your view of gradings and exams changed over time?
Yes, it has.

I have never felt comfortable with testing before I felt ready because I feel my performance reflects my club and my teachers. So even when testing from mu-kyu, if I do badly, it is bad for the club.

However, and this ties into my changing feelings about rank, when I was younger and less experienced, it was harder to know just how bad I was. So, to some degree, ten years ago I felt that rank was something that kendo owed me for putting in a certain amount of practice time. That is a nasty thing to think, in my opinion, and I doubt I would have seen it that way at the time, but that is what I can recognize in my own thinking in hindsight. After a certain amount of effort, and self-examination with a less than discerning eye, one feels "good enough" and thereby entitled to a rank. So, even though I felt the same about not wanting to test before I was ready, I was not as worried about my own skill level before testing because I felt more inherently deserving. I blame the arrogance of youth for that ;)

Now I am older and I feel more keenly the responsibilities of sempai. Now I do not mean that too literally--we have a Western club, of the kendo people, nobody is Japanese and I am even the only asian, so quite possibly many people do not even know the words sempai/kohai, much less live by them. But, as I said before, we do not have "real sensei" at our club, so it is my responsibility to help all the juniors improve. Because, I am more experienced and more discerning than when I was younger, I can see more clearly the problems in my kendo and that makes me worry that I am not leading people down the right path.

That fact changes my thinking about rank in two significant ways. For one, it makes me feel that rank is less important to me. After all, having a certificate with a bigger number on it is not going to fix my posture or my kamae. But, at the same time, passing a test is a way that I can know that I have improved. And, if I am improving, that is reason to think I may not be on totally the wrong path, and that makes me feel more comfortable that I am not misleading my fellow club members. So, my feeling now is that rank is not something that I ever deserve, rather it is something that I am obliged to strive to attain for the good of my club (and, therefore, for kendo as a whole). It now feels like a symbol of my obligation to kendo, and not a personal reward or badge of honor.

This creates many complex and conflicting feelings in me when it comes to testing. If I fail a test now it does not feel like a personal affront and that sensei somehow failed to recognize my worth, because I no longer expect to be given a rank as a reward. So failing is not as bad in that sense. However, if I fail a test now, I worry that I am failing my club and teaching them the wrong path--I am, essentially, being a bad sempai. and, therefore, a bad kohai to my teachers--and that is a far, far worse feeling. But it is different from the sense of bitterness I used to get. So it is quite different from how I felt ten or more years ago.

[Chook]

Wow... great post.

[ben]

A very interesting question Arthur and many great replies. I can't really add much to what people have said, except to add my own experience of going for 5th dan. I had never failed a grading before, and had even skipped some kyu grades (which doesn't happen much in Aus). So I was going for 5th dan in the absolute minimum time. I felt a great deal of hubris in even attempting it, since it would put me at (numerically at least) the same level as some kendoka whom I consider far ahead of me. So with trepidation I attempted it, with no real feeling of possible success. After the shiai-geiko I felt I didn't do well and started to pack up. Well fcuk me they called me back to do kata! When I was asked to do the written exam I knew I had passed. I don't know what they saw but I felt like I hadn't done well enough. But they were the panel and they could see what I could not, namely my kendo.

I don't know if there's a moral in there or not. I think by the time I went for it I didn't mind if I passed or not. I had spent a year working towards it, keeping a journal of what I had learned, needed to learn, advice and instruction I had received. I had got an incredible amount out of the journey, including the week long seminar beforehand with Taguchi, Miyagawa and Sueno senseis. All this enrichment, including meeting old friends and making new ones at the 2004 AKC, had been created by MY decision to go for the grading. Actually being awarded the grade was, in a way, incidental.

b

[mark]

Wow an amazing repply. Food for thought.
Thank you,
Mark

[Shiatsuman]

Just reading thru and have found this thread pretty interesting..

I have moved home (and dojo) interstate in the last 12 months, starting my kendo a few years ago in a much smaller kendo club without many higher graded kendoists or a sensei. I now train with a larger club and am fortunate to practice under the direction of more senior instructors, and with many more seniors. Moving has also meant more frequent and convenient opportunities to grade.

Because of the lack of seniors in my previous club we could not put gradings together for our members. This meant that we needed to travel interstate for all grading opportunities to state open tournaments or national championship kendo meets. Needless to say, this was sometimes expensive and difficult to arrange and slowed our grading progession (particularly through Kyu grades). I also believe that difficulty with access to seniors/teachers + grading opportunities made it more difficult for the club to retain its beginners, affecting the growth of the club.

Without ranting on too much, i think the experience of my first club has had a positive effect on my kendo. Not being able to grade or train with lots of senior people every week made me concentrate heavily on kihon so that by the time i had the opportunity to do my first few kyu grades i felt well and truly ready.

I have now been practicing kendo for just over 4 years and will attempt my shodan grading for the first time this coming december (which is as soon as i possibly can do it after only having achieved 1st kyu in december last year). I used to get a bit impatient with not being able to grade regularly through past years but I now feel really ready for this grading. I can appreciate the positive influence that not running throught the grades as quickly has probably had on my kendo.

[Stefan]

Hello Arthur,

However, if I fail a test now, I worry that I am failing my club and teaching them the wrong path--I am, essentially, being a bad sempai. and, therefore, a bad kohai to my teachers--and that is a far, far worse feeling. But it is different from the sense of bitterness I used to get. So it is quite different from how I felt ten or more years ago.


Congratulations on your sense of responsibility for your kendo fellows. I think that it is very essential to show the sempais and senseis that one is willing to put his best efforts into his or her kendo career and, maybe more importantly, to be a good example for your koheis.

Regards,

Stefan

[ben spain]

Having this state of mind and attitude shows me that you must be a very good Sempai and also an excellent representative for your dojo.
I hope to be more like yourself one day.

[Munnin]

Arthur Hyun,

While being my sempi and a representative of our dojo is an important commitment. The most important commitment a Kendo student makes is to them selves and to their own kendo, You said to me that you view taking this test as a serious commitment of time and energy. That you would need to take your practicing up a notch and go to NYC to get more practice in. It seems to me that if you have the ability to make such a commitment now; then you should. In the end, the results of this extra commitment may tell you if you’re ready.



Respectfully

Paul Wilson

[hyuna]

You are all very kind, but of course it is easier to talk than to act. All I can say is that I do my best to follow the path I am taught, as best as I am able. Many of my peers feel as I do, I am sure, so I just do what I can to keep up. But thank you all for your kind words.

ben: I had a similar experience for my 3-dan test. I, for one, have never passed a test on the first try. Because of that, when I tested for 3-dan, I spent several months training extra hard for it. I felt very well prepared when it was time to test, but I failed anyway. Over the next few months, I was very busy with work and did not have a chance to prepare specifically for the upcoming test. On test day, I went to offer support to a fellow club member who was testing on that day. He convinced me to sign up for the test even though I did not feel at all prepared. That time, I passed. It may very well be because, having no expectations of passing or failing, I got to show my normal kendo instead of my ultra-nervous test-mode kendo. It fits with the advice I have often gotten: not to be nervous and let things happen as they happen. I have always tried to follow that advice by sitting, taking a deep breath, and trying to relax. But this experience has shown me that perhaps trying to relax may not really be the right approach. It starts to seem like, as you said, not minding is the important bit. It seems the same as in keiko, in the sense that one cannot think too hard about scoring; one has to do the right waza, then the point comes (or not). In the same way, it seems like one cannot worry too much about grading; one has to do their kendo, then the grade comes (or not).

Munnin: actually, I am planning on going to NYC for practice both tomorrow and next Saturday, so we will indeed see how that goes...

[Munnin]

Munnin: actually, I am planning on going to NYC for practice both tomorrow and next Saturday, so we will indeed see how that goes... Well good luck and mark me down as jealous, since I can’t even make this weekends practice.

:(