What happens in shiai if...?

[Stefan]

Hi,

This thread is intended to discuss rules question concerning shiai.

I start with this hypothetical scenario:

Ken Doe and Joe Dan are in a grim encounter and both have an ippon and a hansoku. Due a strange coincidence both loose their shinai.

What happens? Do both get a hansoku and a fifth point has to be fought out? Does the one whose shinai touches the ground first get a hansoku and therefore delivers his opponent a bitter victory? Does none of them get a hansoku?

Regards,

Stefan

[hamish]

They would most likely call yame and not give any hansoku.

It would depend a lot on the referee's judgment at the time on the intentions of the players. In a tied situation, any hansoku would have to be pretty blatant before they would decide the match on it.

[Nanbanjin]

Hi,

This thread is intended to discuss rules question concerning shiai.

I start with this hypothetical scenario:

Ken Doe and Joe Dan are in a grim encounter and both have an ippon and a hansoku. Due a strange coincidence both loose their shinai.

What happens? Do both get a hansoku and a fifth point has to be fought out? Does the one whose shinai touches the ground first get a hansoku and therefore delivers his opponent a bitter victory? Does none of them get a hansoku?

Regards,

Stefan

Hello Stefan,

The answer seems to be to call "onajiku-sohsai" and then continue with the match. Read Q3 of the following translation for more information.



http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs7/23760986328125.html
＞ツバ競りの両反則をとった後に、試合者Ａ、Ｂが同時に竹刀を落としたら
＞どうなるんですか？

まだ、両者とも一本もとっていない場合および、延長戦で一本勝負となっていない
場合は、白から「反則２回一本あり」と赤に旗を上げ、次いで赤に「反則２回１本
あり」宣告し白に旗を揚げ、「勝負」の宣告をします(^^)


＞同じく両反則をとった後に、試合者Ａが竹刀を払って面を打ち、それが有効打突
＞と認められ、さらに試合者ＢがＡに払われた竹刀を落としてしまった場合はどう
＞なるんですか？

有効打突が認められた場合、さらに重ねて反則が適用されることはありません。
この場合Ａの選手に「面あり。勝負あり」と旗の表示と宣告を行ない、ことさらＢ
の選手に反則の表示をする必要はありません(^^)


＞両方が反則で同時に一本になる場合、「同じく相殺」と宣告したことがあります。

「相殺」になるケースは、「双方一本ずつとりあっていて同時反則が２回となった
場合」か、延長戦など一本勝負の場合に限られます。一本ずつを与え、反則の表示
を消した状態から「勝負」にします(^^)


＞試合で勝負を決める一本を取ったとき、まれに「やったー」とガッツポーズをす
＞る選手がいます。その時審判は何と言って一本を取り消すのでしょう。

合議の後、その選手に教育的配慮から、「公正を害する行為」であることを告げ、
ただ、「取り消し」と宣告し主審のみが旗をカラダの前で交差させながら振りま
す。





Q1: After each player has received a hansoku for say (incorrect) tsubazeriai, what would happen if both player A and player B dropped their shinai at the same time?

A1: If neither player has scored a point, or if the shiai has not progressed to encho and ipponshohbu, then starting with white the referee would indicate "hansoku-ni-kai ippon-ari" and raise the red flag, then continue to indicte to red "hansoku-ni-kai ippon-ari" and raise the white flag. The match would then proceed with the call "Shohbu".

Q2: If both sides receive hansoku, then player A scores harai men, and in the process of scoring the harai men the shinai of player B is knocked to the ground then what would happen?

A2: If the yuhkohdatotsu is awarded then the hansoku that occurs in the process is not applied. In this case the flag will be raised for player A with the call "Men-ari. Shohbu ari". There would be no need to indicate a further hansoku against player B.

Q3: There are times where both players commit hansoku at the same time and this amounts to ippon for both players and "Onajiku-sohsai" is declared.

A3: Cases amounting to "Sohsai" are where "both players have scored ippon and both players commit a second hansoku at the same time" or in similar cases during encho and other applications of ipponshohbu. In this case ippon is awarded to each player and then from the state of thus having nullified the hansoku "shohbu" is called.

Q4: In some cases where a player may score a point that decides the match the victorious player will occasionally shout "Yatta" or make a winning gesture. In this case what would the referee pronounce when nullifying ippon.

A4: After gogi, as education for the player who committed the offence, the judge would indicate "kohsei wo gai-suru koh-i" to that player and simply call "torekeshi". The shushin alone would cross flags in front of his body.


Peter

[Nanbanjin]

You will also find this in the following table of rules and shimpan calls.

http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/rule/rule_hyou.html

The relevant articles are

相殺のとき 「相殺」＊2回目以降「同じく相殺」 両旗を前下で左右に振る


This boils down to: in the case where both players commit hansoku, call "sousai" and if this is the second hansoku then call "onajiku-sousai". Wave both flags with the flags pointing down and to the front.

This seems to indicate that the hansoku are nullified for both players and in both situations.

[Stefan]

Thanks Peter.

More weird scenarios then, please.

[Nanbanjin]

Thanks Peter.

More weird scenarios then, please.
No problems Stef.

What types of "weird scenarios" were you after? Or have I misunderstood your post?

[Stefan]

What types of "weird scenarios" were you after? Or have I misunderstood your post?

That went out to the other members of this forum. They should post their question of weird scenarios that can (theoretically) happen in a shiai.

A colleague of mine visited the recent local tournament. Since he is responsible for rules clarification in Badminton for handicapped persons (nation wide) he fired this question against me.

Another question was if it is possible that both opponents score an ippon at the same time. I told him that this would rarely happen.

But once more back to my initial question:


A3: Cases amounting to "Sohsai" are where "both players have scored ippon and both players commit a second hansoku at the same time" or in similar cases during encho and other applications of ipponshohbu. In this case ippon is awarded to each player and then from the state of thus having nullified the hansoku "shohbu" is called.

That means that both have two ippon?

[Nanbanjin]

That went out to the other members of this forum. They should post their question of weird scenarios that can (theoretically) happen in a shiai.

A colleague of mine visited the recent local tournament. Since he is responsible for rules clarification in Badminton for handicapped persons (nation wide) he fired this question against me.

Another question was if it is possible that both opponents score an ippon at the same time. I told him that this would rarely happen.

But once more back to my initial question:



That means that both have two ippon?
In this case effectively neither player is awarded ippon.

It still seems a little unclear so I looked up the details on the znkr website.

Under rule 20
同時反則によって両者が負けになる場合は相殺し、反則としない。
Where both players would be awarded hansoku at the same time resulting in both players losing, the hansoku will be treated as "sohsai" the hansoku will not be applied.

第17条
規則第20条の同時反則による相殺は、次の方法で行う。
1.1回目の場合は、赤、白の順に反則を宣告し、相殺する。
2.2回目以降の場合は、相殺の宣告と表示を同時に行う。



Article 17
Sohsai occurring as a result of simultaneous hansoku under rule 20 will be applied in the following manner.
1. In the first instance "hansoku" will be indicated in the order red then white.
2. In the second and subsequent instances "sousai" will be indicated to both parties at the same time.

It seems that yes, in the first instance the hansoku will be applied to both players. This still does not cover the event where one player has hansoku and then sohsai occurs. It would seem that the hansoku would be applied and the player accumulating two hansoku would lose. Only in the case where both players accumulate two hansoku at the same time is the hansoku not applied.

There is a simpler answer for what happens when both players score at the same time.

第12条
次の場合は、有効打突としない。
1.有効打突が、両者同時にあった場合（相打ち）。

Article 12
Yuhkoh datotsu will not be awarded in the following cases.
1. Where yuhkoh-datotsu is scored simultaneously by both parties (ai-uchi)...

c.f. http://www.kendo.or.jp/jp/rule/index.html
There doesn't appear to be an English equivalent online, though I know a publication exists.

[Paburo]

what happens if both players stand out the shiaijo? they both get hansoku? or ONLY the first one who steps outside is awarded the hasoku?

also, what is the exact position for being 'out of bounds'? if your feet touch the line is hansoku? or if the feet slightly start touching outside the line? or even if your feet are inside, if some of your body is outside(thinking of it as a 3D cage)? or are you 'out' once that more than half of your body is outside the line?

thanks in advance.

[Kendoka]

what happens if both players stand out the shiaijo? they both get hansoku? or ONLY the first one who steps outside is awarded the hasoku?

thanks in advance.
When the first person steps out, the shinpan should immediately suspend the shiai. If the second person then steps out - it wouldn't count as the shiai is suspended.

If they both stepped out simultaneously, then I would call a gogi to confirm with the other shinpan. If they agreed it was simultaneous, then there would be no hansoku as they woulld cancel each other.


also, what is the exact position for being 'out of bounds'? if your feet touch the line is hansoku? or if the feet slightly start touching outside the line? or even if your feet are inside, if some of your body is outside(thinking of it as a 3D cage)? or are you 'out' once that more than half of your body is outside the line?
The shiaijo boundaries are usually marked with lines. If any part of the foot is touching the line or within the lines then the player is still in.
The player is out if all the foot is over the line.

[Nanbanjin]

what happens if both players stand out the shiaijo? they both get hansoku? or ONLY the first one who steps outside is awarded the hasoku?


Elaborating on what kendoka noted...

第20条
...
2. 第17条4号の場合、両者が相前後して、場外に出たときは、 先に出た者のみ反則とする。

Article 20.
...
2. Under article 17-4, if both players commit johgai one after the other then the player who commits johgai first will receive hansoku.



also, what is the exact position for being 'out of bounds'? if your feet touch the line is hansoku? or if the feet slightly start touching outside the line? or even if your feet are inside, if some of your body is outside(thinking of it as a 3D cage)? or are you 'out' once that more than half of your body is outside the line?

thanks in advance.

第15条
規則第17条4号の「場外」は、次のとおりとする。
1.片足が、完全に境界線外に出た場合。
2.倒れたときに、体の一部分が境界線外にでた場合。
3.境界線外に置いて、身体の一部または竹刀で体を支えた場合。

Article 15
"Johgai" stemming from rule 17-4 is applied in the following circumstances.
1. One foot completely goes outside of the shiai-joh boundary line.
2. A part of the body goes out of the shiai-joh boundary line when a player falls down.
3. If a players body is supported by any body part or the shinai that is outside of the shiai-joh boundary line.

[nalogg]

Hi,

This thread is intended to discuss rules question concerning shiai.

I start with this hypothetical scenario:

Ken Doe and Joe Dan are in a grim encounter and both have an ippon and a hansoku. Due a strange coincidence both loose their shinai.

What happens? Do both get a hansoku and a fifth point has to be fought out? Does the one whose shinai touches the ground first get a hansoku and therefore delivers his opponent a bitter victory? Does none of them get a hansoku?

Regards,

Stefan
Simple...
That would cause a tear in the space/time continuum.... pray it never happens!

[Twobitmage]

man I love those names, "ken doe" and "joe dan"