So the shinai is a sword ?!!!??

[David J]

I do believe I "get" the relationship of the shinai to the sword. But certain attitudes that pop up occasionally perplex me....

For example, I have been told that Do is an inferior cut, as it would not immediately kill the opponent. But in the way we practice this hardly seems valid. If the swords were real, the last thing we'd be doing is be aiming a cut at the Men or Do or whatever, we'd be going for an un-armoured area (say, the upper arm...that's gotta smart;)). Surely what we're doing is just a thing in its own right, and shouldn't be judged against real sword combat ? :confused:

I know the spirit of swordsmanship lives in Kendo, which is obviously part of its appeal. I personally dont see it as purely a competitive sport. The confusing part for me is the "yes, but if this were a real sword...." arguments that come up, given how little of Kendo seems to be rigidly based on combat with real swords.

Am I making any sense? How does anyone else feel about this?

<rei>

Dave

[ben]

I know had my two bob's worth on this topic just recently but again, bugger me if I can remember what the original thread was called.

I seem to remember Hamish saying that IHO any kendo conversation that starts "well if it was a REAL sword..." should be steered well clear of. Point being that an ultimately unresolvable discussion is about to ensue (maybe this is one for the FAQ). Even kenjutsu students are taught that what they learn they will never use. So it all remains theoretical. If you want to learn how to cut, study tameshigiri. If you want to learn a beautiful dance that was choreographed in blood, study kenjutsu. If you want to learn to pit your personality and your wits against another in real time, study kendo. But if you want to cut people up... become a doctor.

"The spirit of swordsmanship lives in kendo". That's exactly right.

b

[Critical_Bill]

<quote>But if you want to cut people up... become a doctor.</quote>

heheh, that is to funny ben hehehe :D (still, very true)

[munenmuso]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ben
But if you want to cut people up... become a doctor.

"The spirit of swordsmanship lives in kendo". That's exactly right.

b [/QUOTE

Your weird and funny ben, it is I who should doff my hat to you sir...........:D

[alexpollijr]

Yea Ben

the 'choreographed in blood' was truly poetic :D

[David J]

Yeah you bugger...just when I thought I'd started an interesting thread and you go and express it all beautifully <sigh>

<rei>

Dave

ps c'mon you "its a sword" types, get in there ;)

[GMason]

I don't really hold with this it's a sword malarky either.

For one it's the wrong shape. Which doesn't really discount alot of technique's but I don't think they would be a). as effective or b). you probably wouldn't do them at all.

On the whole shinai's are all the same length and weight which again discount's some techniques or stratagies

Yes you should be respectfull to the origins of the art, and I think in manyways it is an art. But you shouldn't get wrapped up in the it's a sword and I'm going to be a Ronin roaming the lands Dojo storming (Not that I saying you would Dave or where you just on a reccy when you came to Bolton :D )

If you want get into it's a real sword, practice Iai & Jodo. They will help you immensly (In kendo as well) and as they say they are all wheels on the cart.

Sorry for not sticking up for you Dave :D

[munenmuso]

The problem with a real sword is when you cut someone he dies or there is only one chance to survive while with a shinai you cut someone again and again then he lives many times to learn and improve from those mistakes then trash you till you say 'man your good with that shinai and you make me less significant with my sword, how I wish I could have used my real sword instead when I had that first chance of cutting you down'.:D

[Atama]

The way I see it is Iaido an kenjutsu are closer to true japanese swordsmanship.....but if you only do iai i feel you miss out on the spirit of combat, after all wasn't that why kendo was developed

[kendokamax]

depends on every practices

sometimes you think it was a sword since you did so well.

other times ...I'm not too sure i see it as a sword since I would end up in small pieces back home.


Its a bit like when you are young and play with water guns.

[wutian]

i think the fealling for real swords are coverd more in katas and the shinai does help the shinsin gumi used it and i wouldent want to cross any of them hehe

[mingshi]

Hamish's comment is here:
Shiai- Why do we do it? (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=5513#post5513)

Hate to quote this every single time but here it goes:
The concept of Kendo is to discipline the human character through the application of the principles of the Katana (sword).

So the answer is NO. Shinai is not a sword. Kendo is only based on the APPLICATION of the PRINCIPLES of the sword.

If the shinai is real, the first thing I'll do is cut everyone's feet off.

Say, you shouldn't bob your head to avoid a cut. One may say that's bad posture and the conversation ends. But at a deeper end "if it is real..." theory will come up. (IMHO, so correct me if it's not.)

The principles of the sword does apply to some shiai rules to a certain extent. For example, a valid cut should be from the first 1/3 of your shinai, and not the whole thing... because that's where you'll be using "if it is real...". Ai-uchi, tsuba-zeriai, and if you cut with the string side of the shinai doesn't count, not because the rule are like that and that's it, but because the rules are based on the fact that "if it is real..."

If anyone says "If it is real...", I guess that person does not treat their Shinai as a piece of sports equipment. There's a whole discipline behind it and you treat all your equipment with respect. When you play baseball you can throw the bat on the ground and make all sorts of noises. With a shinai, you shouldn't.

Well, after all, smashing a shinai on someone's head is different from smashing them with a baseball bat!

(p.s. About the "treating equipment with respect" part... My Mum forbids me to play with my pencils and erasers when I was still at school...... You can apply the "respect to" virtually everything else!;) )

[Confound]

I don't give much weight to the 'it's a sword' school either, however, I do believe that we should treat our shinai with respect, in deference to the origins of kendou. I get very peeved at people who lean on their shinai, or play fight with them, or use them as a tool to get something off a high shelf. A shinai is not a toy. It is a tool, but it isn't made for pushing things off shelves, the correct tool for that job is a chair, get it, stand on it, and get the bloody bogu bag safely.

That said, I really hate it when I come into the dojo and find that some ignorant judou brat has been playing with my shinai while I wasn't there, or even worse, some idiot who doesn't even study any martial art. (The people who study judou at my budokan are brats, there's no other way to describe them. I refer only to those who practice at my dojo, not to judouka in general.) I don't like it when one of my kohais gives his shinai to some random person who knows nothing about kendou, and isn't at all interested in it, but loves to run around the dojo whapping the walls with a shinai.

There is a line between respecting your shinai and revering your shinai like a 'real sword'. I respect my equipment, even bogu that isn't mine. I expect others to treat their own equipment, and that of others, in a respectful way as well. This includes treating a shinai as though it is a sword, in a very limited way. You don't point it at people who aren't in bogu, you don't lean on it, or gesture with it, or use it to practice your golf swing.

c

[alexpollijr]

The shinai is a stick, and shinai kendo is, therefore, stickwork, not bladework.

However, it's not nice to see people kicking shinai around, leaning or whapping or whatever. if the sport/art has rules (i.e sageto/taito) then they're supposed to be followed.

I think this was Confound's point. It doesn't need worshipping, just plain common sense.

[iwatekenshi]

Miyazaki Masahiro from the Kangawa Police Department and All-Japan Champ etc..., was kind enough to come our dojo this past weekend to give a speech and offer some great tips on kihon-uchi and keiko(amazing footwork!). In his lecture he was very serious about treating your shinai as if it was a sword. He had a very simple explanation.
He said, "When looking at a shinai it's just piece of bamboo. That's very true. However, once the tsuba goes on it becomes something different. It transcends and becomes a sword. Therefore it should be treated as such. It is very important to follow these basic rules. If you care to follow them your kendo shall consistantly improve. It is very important to have this in your mindset always, and tell others to apply the correct manners accordingly."
It's just common sense advice for those who do kendo. For those who do not it's just an interesting bamboo stick, tsuba or not.

[chidokan]

I always have treated shinai like swords....this is partly down to the fact that it was difficult to get one in the UK when I first started, and you had to wait ages for the next one to turn up if you broke it. I have the ability to make them last for ages now....

Tim Hamilton

[Yowai]

When looking at a shinai it's just piece of bamboo. That's very true. However, once the tsuba goes on it becomes something different
Lovely flow of logic.
1. Take a piece of bamboo
2. Add tsuba to make a piece of bamboo with a tsuba
3. ???
4. Resultant: Sword

[frederico]

For example, I have been told that Do is an inferior cut, as it would not immediately kill the opponent. But in the way we practice this hardly seems valid. If the swords were real, the last thing we'd be doing is be aiming a cut at the Men or Do or whatever, we'd be going for an un-armoured area (say, the upper arm...that's gotta smart).


i think that at some point that they started using mantoman swordfighting(more infantary like than cavalary) they lowered the armor so they can get more flexible... so .. hitting is hitting the best parts possible.. you will hit the kote area as if it was unarmored becouse it is closer to you.. actually now, you hit becouse of that and becouse of NOT hurting your friend...

anyway.. i can be compleatly wrong..

but i think of the bogu as if there wasnt a bogu.. and when you do a do you cut the guy. The armor is just there to protect not to simulate old kind of armors. (or again maybe, im just wrong)

[mystic_kendoka]

kanji for shinai= 竹刀
竹=bamboo
刀=sword

it is a sword...

[Masahiro]

Miyazaki Masahiro from the Kangawa Police Department and All-Japan Champ etc..., was kind enough to come our dojo this past weekend to give a speech and offer some great tips on kihon-uchi and keiko(amazing footwork!). In his lecture he was very serious about treating your shinai as if it was a sword. He had a very simple explanation.
He said, "When looking at a shinai it's just piece of bamboo. That's very true. However, once the tsuba goes on it becomes something different. It transcends and becomes a sword. Therefore it should be treated as such. It is very important to follow these basic rules. If you care to follow them your kendo shall consistantly improve. It is very important to have this in your mindset always, and tell others to apply the correct manners accordingly."
It's just common sense advice for those who do kendo. For those who do not it's just an interesting bamboo stick, tsuba or not.
well said.

[enkorat]

Recently my roommate who pratices gymnastics at the same place we have Kendo practice overheard a woman watching our kendo practice wondering outloud "why would you ever want to teach your child hitting each other with sticks?"

Also recently I saw a demonstration with two people who do iaido. After watching one of my fellow clubmembers compete in shiai, one of the iaido demonstrators came up to her and said "you should do kendo as if it were a real sword." From how this was retold I got the impression that the guy was talking down his nose to my clubmmate.

We videotaped the tournament and coincidentally the demo was taped as well. Fortuitously the iaido demo (a two person form) was followed by a kendo kata demonstration by people who do kendo. When I watched the iaido demonstration the "real sword guy" did a reasonable fascimile of a kamae. But he had no... well... fire. Even just standing there in kamae it was as if he was just, well, standing there as if he were waiting for the bus, never mind that he had a piece of wood in his hands carved to look like a sword. Even watching on TV, I felt as if I could just push him over if I gave him a good shove.

The rest of the form was technically correct, I think.... but it was for lack of better word, limp.

When the kata demo from kendo came on with different people, it was completely different. It was like two tightly coiled springs just waiting to go. And when the right moment came the two people exploded into action, like two waves crashing together, even if it was slow.

Needless to say, I want to be more like a tiightly coiled springs ready to explode into action than the wet noodle holding a stick waiting for a bus.

I still trying to figure out what I saw on that videotape thats made such a deep impression on me.

[Nanbanjin]

Lovely flow of logic.
1. Take a piece of bamboo
2. Add tsuba to make a piece of bamboo with a tsuba
3. ???
4. Resultant: Sword

Couldn't help laughing at that one.

The problem with hitting as if you are using a sword is that, well, the shinai is not a sword. I assume that the balance and sweet spot of a sword is quite different to that of a shinai, so to use either skilfully wouldn't you have to use them quite differently?
Treating the shinai with the same respect as you would treat a sword is another matter.

[Wout]

The shinai is a stick, and shinai kendo is, therefore, stickwork, not bladework.

However, it's not nice to see people kicking shinai around, leaning or whapping or whatever. if the sport/art has rules (i.e sageto/taito) then they're supposed to be followed.

I think this was Confound's point. It doesn't need worshipping, just plain common sense.

Hmm if it was stickwork, you should be allowed to move your hands of the tsuka, and 'hits' could be made with either of the four takes even with the tsuru or even with the tsuka itself. I believe kendo is bladework, only done with a stick,it is not stickwork because it is done with a stick. But maybe their are some movements that only work with a shinai and are usefull in shiai, but then again kendo is more then just shiai.

[chidokan]

not the old 'holier than thou attitude' from an iaidoka??!! I see it work both ways, but unfortunately this is a guy who OBVIOUSLY does not do kendo as well. I find it hard to seperate the two, I've done both so long. I can assure you there should be some 'fire' in iaido, this guy was obviously also a beginner.
He is right in what he says, but how I would phrase it is 'you should FENCE as if with a live sword'. I demonstrated this in kendo kata last week at my dojo, you get a very different feeling from a sword compared to a bokken (or shinai for that matter), especially if the guy who has it looks like he means to use it.
I guarantee you would not just go charging in for a half hearted attempt at a cut, and would understand more about full committment to cutting, ie dont unless you can guarantee to hit and not be hit. Think of being in a shiai for the world champs and you need one point each to win... and you are halfway there to understanding! :smiley:
Treat all swords the same, shinai, iaito shinken and bokken. Look after them as if they were a real sword and use them like a real sword. A simple philosophy, yes? :wink:

[Kote-Men]

going back into the armour....if you were using a real sword in combat, the men would be a good target...i read that the helmet was a barrier that was very easy to overcome with a sword. As for do, that was also a weak part of the armor, right under the breastpltate. It could be fatal if you severed organs inside of your enemy. I mean, he's not gonna jump up and keep fighting if you've sliced his stomach open. :) But these are Kendo's targets, I heard there is (was) a certain ryu were you aimed for places armor didn't protect. I don't remember what it was called though,

MENN KOTE-MENNNNN KOTE-DOOOOOOO

[SaitoHajime]

The shinai is a sword by definition. Kendo uses the shinai as it's sword of choice. I wouldn't do iaido with a shinai and I wouldn't do kendo with a sword. The question leads to the question of the shinai being applied in the way a sword would be? Not really, somewhat, it's all relative however you can't use it for anything else that requires or is made for a sword like iaido, etc. Well you could but even kenshin (an anime character) says it's rather reckless to use a wooden (or bamboo) sword against a real one.

[enkorat]

not the old 'holier than thou attitude' from an iaidoka??!! I see it work both ways, but unfortunately this is a guy who OBVIOUSLY does not do kendo as well. I find it hard to seperate the two, I've done both so long. I can assure you there should be some 'fire' in iaido, this guy was obviously also a beginner. As I had just moved to the area and was the new guy, I politely kept my own thoughts to myself. Its really a shame, though. I would really like to take up iaido because I thought we were supposed to do both in order to get a well rounded training. I've never learned how to draw a bladed weapon and I'm not used working with a weighted weapon of that size or shape. I have no idea how it effects my balance or how to move with a metal blade, for example, which seems important to me. It seems silly to me to learn how to "fence" and not know how to use a metal weapon.

But when I went to visit the iaido club, same location different night, some of the people were really biased against kendo.

Not just a polite disagreement, but a litany against why iaido was superior to kendo. It was pretty bad. I was shocked. As I had done kendo before I had moved, it really sent up a very large red flag and it made me not go back a second night.

The encounter at the kendo tournament only reinforced that it wasn't a one time freak incident.

It made me really disappointed actually. We're supposed to be two parts of the same club but it seems like there is a gulf a mile wide between our two groups.


Treat all swords the same, shinai, iaito shinken and bokken. Look after them as if they were a real sword and use them like a real sword. A simple philosophy, yes? :wink:I always try. I also try to remember that there is no sword in the end, and that it is a struggle between two people.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

For one it's the wrong shape. Which doesn't really discount alot of technique's but I don't think they would be a). as effective or b). you probably wouldn't do them at all.

Well, the Europeans seemed to be able to cut each other up well enough with straight swords. I'm not sure the straight sword was as much of a disadvantage as some people seem to think it was. The Europeans could have made curved blades if they felt it was advantageous to, the Chinese used some curved blades but I believe they also continued to make and use straight blades.



I heard there is (was) a certain ryu were you aimed for places armor didn't protect.
Didn't they all? Would you try to cut your enemy in the most vulnerable place or the best protected? If you look at the armor, it tends to cover more and more of the body over time, I would have thought the reason was to make fewer of those unprotected places.


If the shinai is real, the first thing I'll do is cut everyone's feet off.
*snip*
The principles of the sword does apply to some shiai rules to a certain extent.But only to some extent as shown by your example of cutting off somebody's feet, or cutting off the arm above the wrist, or cutting the muscles on the top of the shoulder, or any of the other lethal or disabling wounds we ignore the simulation of in kendo. Maybe it is due to the changes that had to be made to get kendo brought back from the dead after the war, but the one thing I wish was different about kendo is that it could easily be closer to the application of a real sword in a kill-or-be-killed situation. Kenjitsu or iaido may be closer in some ways, but neither one has the full-speed, all-out, head-to-head aspect that kendo does. OK, OK, I know I've fallen deep into the whole "if it was a real sword" thing, but when trying to apply the principles of the katana, wouldn't it make sense to treat your substitute as close as practical to the real thing?

[Aden]

Look at the history of Kendo on Neil's swordfaq
<http://www.kendo-sask.com/swordfaq.htm>
its protective equipment and the four slat not leather covered shinai.

All are Edo period developments, its an 18th century thing from the great peace. So it armours what would be the most desirable unarmoured targets (excluding legs) on most people with whom you would have had a meaningfull interaction involving the use of a sword at the time.

Aden

[Vansen]

OK. I get why we treat the shinai as a sword in the dojo and I have no problems with adhering to this tradition (don't stab it in the ground, hold it on the "edge", rest it on your shoulder etc etc).

Now here is the problem. What do I think / do / act when sensei throws the shinai (sword) at someone in the dojo? We were practicing foot work and the student that was targeted was casually walking when we were to be performing a very quite suri-ashi (sp?). It certainly woke me up on a Saturday morning. I'm sure if I threw my shinai there would be serious repercussions so is this just an example of "do what I say not what I do"?

It kinda reminds me of the duel between Luke and Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi, where Darth Vader throws his sabre at Luke in the cat walk above.

[stunned_rabbit]

Is a shinai a stick or a sword?

I would say that it depends in whose hands it is wielded.

I was struck (quite literally!) by this a couple of months ago in jigeiko with my sempai. Usually when an opponent makes a successful attack, I subconciously think something along the lines of "ok, that's a point to you".
He struck me with what I thought was the perfect do cut. (cf, earlier thread on the difference between 'hitting' and 'cutting').
I hardly saw it coming. As the sound of the impact was still echoing off the dojo walls, I thought "I'm dead".
At that moment at least, his shinai in his hands was a sword.

[mystic_kendoka]

good point, its like a kid imagining his sword is a stick, as long as hes concerned its a sword..