Jodan vs Chudan

[Matthew Lagden]

This is just a theoretical question for me, but best to be prepared...

my dojo discourages any kamae but chudan, so i have never faced a jodan opponent. Whats it like?

Seriously, i would assume that from jodan you are committed to attacking as fast as possible, straight in, cut men, through.

so, as their chudan opponent, what is the best way to counter this?

i am conscious of other comments that people have made about jodan being an aggressive/arrogant Kamae, and one that is likely to scare an inexperienced opponent (like me) into 'surrender'.

[JSchmidt]

There was a thread about it awhile ago.

First thing to remember, is that jodan got virtually no defenses. It will only work if you can put pressure on the opponent.
Second is that jodan got longer reach. That means that at his cutting distance, you can't cut him.
First you need to raise the tip of your shinai, so it points against the jodan players left kote. This will threathen his kote and to some extent cover your own (right) kote.
Secondly never more to the left. It will instantly open up your kote (And if you cover it as you move, your men will be open).
For attacking a jodan player, you got 3 realistic targets: Left and right kote and tsuki. Left kote is the common one to attack and probably the easiest target.
The idea is to either make the jodan player attack and make him miss (or deflect it), so you can counter-attack. You have to do that by moving in and out of his cutting distance, trying to tease him to attack. If he doesnt react to that, you will have the chance to step in and attack, but it has to be quick. When you attack kote, treat it like a small fast men-cut.
Because of the nature of the one-handed cut, it is quite fast, so you if attack, you have to make sure you close the distance completely (or go through) or you will get hit.
Attacking right kote, is a little more tricky, as most jodan player are quick to move it out of the way. You will have to force him on his back-heel to do that.
Tsuki more got the role of a jab. Again, it's hard to get ippon with, as you again need to get him on his heels, but it's a good tool for showing that you are aware of the distance.

Hope it helps


Jakob

[nodachi]

Why not go for a Do hit?

Pardon my ignorance. Maybe you have to be insanely fast, high dan, super kendo people. The do is quite open too when your opponent is in jodan, ne? Or am I wrong here?

Like I said though, maybe you have to be insanely fast. I have seen my sensei successfully pull off Do hits against another person in Jodan, but maybe that is because they are moving at some ridiculous speed. I know I couldn't do it cause I am too slow, but I have seen a select few people succeed in this.

Feel free to verbally beat me!!! Enlighten me as to why no one ever mentions Do hits as a proper reaction, only tsuki,tsuki, tsuki...

[GMason]

This is what I have been advised

Fence against Jodan right on the edge of his/her cutting distance and use Kiashi Seme. For this method you have to be very composed and very patient. This works well if you are aganist a very impatient fencer. Who is not comfortable with standing still looking for an opening as he/she will usually rush into a cut when there is not an opening, and you are obviously ready for it and it is what you want him/her to do.

If you do this in Shiai you have to be prepared to look stupid as if you are actually not doing anything. Which in it's self will probably make the Jodan Fenecr fall into your cunning trap :bandit:

Just one to fence against Jodan.

[JSchmidt]

It's too far away and do cut is too slow.
Normal do works on the basis of getting the opponent to lift his arms, either to cover the men, or to attack. As the jodan player already got his arms up, all he needs is to bring his shinai down to cut.
Katate-tsuki you got about the same reach as the jodan player's men, with do, you'll most likely just miss:)
Also, the moment a jodan player attacks, his right arm will go down to the side, covering the right do.
My right elbow is one big bruise in the moment, from people trying kaeshi do.
I've seen a few people use gyaku-do, but they were very (very!) fast.

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Doh is too slow, he can come down from jodan to your men way faster than you can hit his doh, and you leave your men exposed to hit the doh. Gyaku-doh is used against jodan or nito, but you have to be pretty good at it.

Use seigan against jodan (kata #5). You can attack kote but it's better to get the jodan player to attack you, then counter. Basically it's a waiting game. The jodan player is trying to pressure you into a mistake, you're trying to get him to commit to an attack... Watch where your kensen is pointing. Safest place is to point at his left arm. If you move inside his arm, your kote is open. If you move outside, your men is open. He's going to try to get you moving one way or the other, and catch your kote or your men as you transition. So don't wave your shinai around a lot :)

[munenmuso]

Isn't it that hitting your opponent's left kote is a valid target when it is raised above the shoulder for that matter? So why not go for it and distract his moves.

[Will]

No matter what you're told and what you read on these post, it doesn't help unless you actually practice against Jodan. I was given lots of advice from several different senseis on how to approach an opponent at jodan and even with the advice it was still very difficult. I spent 20 minutes attack his left kote and by the end of the keiko my left calve was burning.

I don't know how you would do it because you're sensei is against all kamaes other than chudan, but try to go against someone in Jodan, that's the only way you can fully understand how to proceed against it. All the advice in the world that you read will not prepare you against someone at jodan in a shiai.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by munenmuso
Isn't it that hitting your opponent's left kote is a valid target when it is raised above the shoulder for that matter? So why not go for it and distract his moves.
It's a valid target as soon as it's above the mune (the top part of your doh). Why not "just go for it"? Because you'll find him lifting his arms and then hitting your men. Kote-nuki-men is like breathing to jodan people. So if you're going to attack his kote, better be sure you have an opportunity and not just jump at it.

But I agree with Will - you need to practice these things, otherwise the first time you face jodan you'll have big troubles.

[Confound]

Slip into hasso. Don't wait for the 'what the hell' face from Mr. Jodan, and strike kote while he's surprised. Works for me.

c

[kendokamax]

that kote nuki men thing

bah one of my cheap technique when playing some jodan who likes to make his kote disapear is to fake the first kote then go kote again. that is in the same movement.. since my kensen will be hum still "alive" after the fake kote, it isnt such a dangerous technique to use.....bah i actually dont care, my kendo is not about being careful anyway (and when it is , i'm bad).

[JSchmidt]

kote-nuki-men is just about the only oji-waza a jodan player has. The important thing is that when you *do* go for the kote, you go for it...all the way, with full force and strong follow-through.
You need to treat the kote-cut as a men cut against a chudan player...if you stay in front, you will get hit.

Jakob

[mingshi]

Old thread on the same topic.
vs Jodan (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=119)

Confound: Hasso is good for counter-Jodan. I second that. And it works like Katsugi-waza. Suprise suprise.

Never go for Gombe-Kamae..... You'll get a Jodan-do cut!

(I still wonder why you guys say changing Kamae midway is bad... since a Kamae is a response to another Kamae, in respond to certain situations... Say Kata #5, you change yor Kamae from Chudan to Seigan... And in Naginata, people just keep changing Kamae and sides... why not Kendo?)

[Lill Murveln]

One technique that works good for me against jodan people is to first threaten the left kote and then go for the right. ie you slip in like you were going for the left one and then in the last moment turn your shinai over to hit the right kote.

[Confound]

Mingshi,

I agree with the positive nature of changing one's kamae. If you know your kamae needs to be fixed, but do nothing, it seems like a waste, not to mention impractical. I'm sure that real swordsmen fiddled around a bit with kamae before they actualy started a serious match. It only makes sense to choose your position carefully when your life is on the line. Luckily, the stakes are low in kendou, and we can have as many matches as we want without any risk of losing limbs, or heads.

It's also pleasant to hear that I'm not the only one doing hasso. (Admittedly, my hasso is hardly anything to brag about, it's rather weak, but as has been said before, it's a work in progress.)

c

[ben]

Jakob said: "Attacking right kote, is a little more tricky, as most jodan player are quick to move it out of the way."

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the right kote was not a 'legal' target when in jodan...

Anyway, no-one has mentioned the potential of oji-waza vs jodan. Most jodan players I know of have trouble with a follow-up technique once they have committed to an attack. This leaves them really vulnerable to various oji-waza like nuki-waza, kaeshi-waza, suriage-waza, kiri-otoshi-waza, u.s.w. It makes sense to me that if the jodan player is yang, the chudan player should be yin.

N'est pas?

b

[JSchmidt]

No, right kote is a perfectly valid target...and yes, oji-waza can be very effective, but the timing can be tricky. (I only got limited experience *against* jodan, but certainly recieve my share of men-suriage-men :D).

Jakob

[mashu19]

It's too far away and do cut is too slow.
Normal do works on the basis of getting the opponent to lift his arms, either to cover the men, or to attack. As the jodan player already got his arms up, all he needs is to bring his shinai down to cut.
Katate-tsuki you got about the same reach as the jodan player's men, with do, you'll most likely just miss:)
Also, the moment a jodan player attacks, his right arm will go down to the side, covering the right do.
My right elbow is one big bruise in the moment, from people trying kaeshi do.
I've seen a few people use gyaku-do, but they were very (very!) fast.

Jakob

i have to agree with the bruise on your right arm there. sure they dont get the point, but dahm your arm hurts the next day..