European Fencing....?

[David J]

Just wondering if anyone here does "conventional" fencing, or has done, or is thinking of it, or gave it up after starting Kendo?

Is it a similar "world" or very different?

Just curious....

<rei>

Dave

[kendokamax]

hum i never did any but my sensei was in the french fencing team when he was young (i guess he was not too bad..!). but when he started kendo (at around 30 something) in japan, he never went back to fencing.

sometimes he would pull off some fencing move on you and hit your feet with his shinai.. kinda funny

Correct me if i'm wrong but in fencing a valid hit is any hit right?

[JSchmidt]

"Correct me if i'm wrong but in fencing a valid hit is any hit right?"

Only with epee. With foil it's torso only and sabre it's upper body.
It's worth keeping in mind that European fencing has it's origins in duelling fencing (ie not battle field fencing) and most of the duels were only fought to first blood, so even a small cut would end the duel. (Otherwise they would run out of aristocrats very quickly!). Also, the pressure required to activate the switch at the tip of the weapon is around 500 grams, which allegedly is the same pressure that was required to break the skin with the live weapon.
In Germany , having duelling scars on the cheeks was considered a sign of manhood and they developed specifc duelling helmets, where the cheeks were exposed...I believe this was still practiced in the early 20th century.

Jakob

[kendokamax]

eh that is very interesting!

I didnt know they were doing duels and without attention to kill.

cool

[Tato]

In fact, all the european tradition of duels was "pour l'honneur", in this tradition the two ofended asked for a duel the ofender, and the ofender chosed place and wapon.

If I remember right, the duel must follow till one of the parties accepted to surrender. I most of the cases that happened at first blood, but in many cases the duel ended by the dead of one of the fencers. And from the first half of the XVIII the dueling pistol was an option, with a high dead toll. Finaly remeber that what today is a minor wound, in times of worst medicine knowledge was easily fatal.

And yes, fortunatly it's a XVII-XIX centuries tradition, even if there are still exemples of duels to death in the first half of the XXth accross all Europe.

And for the technique, the use of sword in the European battlefields was restricted to officials and to cavalry, the officials used their sword with techniques very close to the normal fencing, and cavalry used they swords with an special technique. They swords were specialy crafted for the pourpouse. (One of my french uncles still have the polish cavalry sabres of my grand-grand-grand-grand father, who was a Hussar officier in the Great army of Napoleon in the russian campaing, and I've seen them, whow).

By the way, I think that the cavalry fencing is still something that you can learn in St Cyr, I'm not sure.

Rei

[JSchmidt]

A very good movie to watch (but hard to find), is Ridley Scotts "The Duellists".

Daff

[ben]

"In Germany , having duelling scars on the cheeks was considered a sign of manhood and they developed special duelling helmets, where the cheeks were exposed...I believe this was still practiced in the early 20th century."

It's called 'Mensur' and is still practiced. In fact I believe it has undergone a recent revival in the German speaking world. The scars denoted social status (kind of like "the old school tie") as much as 'manhood', hence the Anglo stereotype of the German badguy having a facial scar and monocle. Apparently a straight scar is good - a crooked one means you flinched.

b

[nodachi]

I guess to some extent fencing and kendo are similar, but there are many things that give Kendo a much better feeling to it, if you ask me.

In fencing the people usually stay in a straight line, the matches don't move around as much as kendo. Since the pressure needed to score a hit is so small, there is very little muscle involved. I rarely got very tired since the foil was so light too. Although the nice scoring electric scoring equipment makes judging much easier. I like how in kendo there needs to be the intention of getting a hit. In fencing, a lucky random stab can get you a point, but in Kendo that won't do.

Just a few random thoughts, fencing was fun, but Kendo rules!

[Dakhath]

I can't form a very solid opinion on kendo yet, as I only started about 2 months ago, but I was previously in fencing for 6 or 7 years, starting age 11 or 12. I gotta say, fencing was pretty fun, but I like kendo better.

Fencing seems to be more a tournament oriented, results based, can-I-make-national-team kind of sport. From what I gather, kendo can be all of that, and also become something to live by. Not saying that fencing can't be, mind you. Each to his own.

Foil was all about right of way. Attack, riposte, remise, remise of the riposte, it would flow back and forth. I would imagine kendo at higher dan rankings to be somewhat the same? Somewhat of a saber/epee cross, upper body target, use the blade more than the point, but hit however you can without getting hit in return

In almost all of the fencing tournaments I have been to across Canada, it was not good etiquette to give kiai at the opponent. If you felt you had to yell YESSS after a good hit, you were to turn around and face away from your opponent. I'm not sure if there is a hard and fast entry in the rules, but I think there was something along the lines of 'no intimidating the opponent' through anything resembling kiai. Big difference there, for me. I prefer kendo on that point. Show your spirit.

Arguing with judges. There is only one 'president' for a fencing bout, and I've seen some fencers get away with disrespect that would get you booted from the dojo.

No more left-handers in kendo! Really different to fence a good opposite-handed person. Though both good fencers and good kendoka seem to know what you are going to do before you do...

The back whips in fencing, while not very useful, are really fun :)

Long first post...

[David J]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
A very good movie to watch (but hard to find), is Ridley Scotts "The Duellists".

Daff

...havent seen it, but it is available on Region 1 DVD (in UK, try www.play.com - £13.99 inc delivery)

<on guard!>

Dave

[Matthew Lagden]

i found the duellists a bit tedious (each to their own....)

i heard that fencing gave one a good all over workout, but then i suppose you could say that about any sport. and apparently it is 'trendy' at the moment which is not something one can say about kendo, although i live in hope....

plus if you have ever used a standard army sword - (as is still issued to british army officers although it is used for drill only and officers are not taught to fence) - let alone a good quality weapon - it would require very little pressure behind the point to impale someone right to the hilt.

my feeling would be that it would take more skill to lightly draw blood than it would to run someone stright through.

[etherknot]

I used to fence. It was alright. I liked it specifically because I was the youngest/shortest guy in the club which gave me a rather nice advantage while fighting taller people. You figure it out :)

Kendo does differ quite a bit. A few of you have already mentioned that the movement is fairly linear. The actual area where you can move through is less wide but longer than in kendo. Kiai is like a no no in fencing. Especially with such gusto and force. You probably would scare your opponent into a tiny hole. Target areas are different too. Generally I recall that in foil only your torso was a valid area. I can't remember about epee. And sabre is nifty cause you can whip with the thing. There is no kote to hit, definately no sune and I think men is only available to sabre players. Also different is that the "weapons" are different. As such the end results are different. Fencing is generally a poking movement because you are working with the pointy end of your sword whereas kendo is more cutting based because you are using an edge of a sword.
Oh yes and because fencing toys are so small the grip is different. Definately no two handed grips. At least you won't get your opponent all disgruntled about too-much-right-hand-on-kote syndrome: cause it's ALL right hand! :D

You know, if fencing could take anything away from kendo to grow on... I would hope it would be nito. Wouldn't THAT be fun? :D

[Tato]

I've read somewhere in the web that in the XVI and XVII centuries there where fencing techniques that used a double arm system, rapiere and dagger. Can't find anymore the article that told that.

Rei

[nodachi]

Epee can strike anywhere from the waist up if I remember correctly.

[JSchmidt]

Epee can strike anywhere, as far as I remember.

Jakob

[Matthew Lagden]

stage actors are taught to fence nito style (one long sword one short sword) for use in seventeenth century films and the like - don't know whether it is an authentic thing or not though.

[2muchryt]

has anybody seen film footage of 8dan hanshi/Japan Olympic Fencing coach, Mori, Torao, doing Kendo vs, Fencing ?
where can i get an unedited copy of THAT?

[Kozushi]

Fencing is really all about using a sword in your right hand and something else in your left: whatever you can put in it.
If you couldn't find something to put in your left hand, then you would use it to grapple with the opponent: usually by gripping his sword arm or even his sword!
Two weapon fencing was still done in Italy 100 years ago. I saw a picture of women 100 years ago doing this, somewhere on the web.
Some people have speculated on Musashi having been influenced by Portuguese visitors; although I kind of doubt it - but who knows?