8th dan

[wutian]

What does the 8th dan test consist of?

[munenmuso]

You must be at least 45 years of age with eight years experience as 7thdan prior to your application for hachidan.

First screening consists of two sets of keiko bouts both within time limit of 120 seconds under the eyes of seven competent judges all with at least 15 years of experience as 8th dan. In order to past the first screening at least 5 of seven judges must vote in favor of you. All looking for that 'immovable spirit character' and not just about how good you are in making points.

If I'm not mistaken, after the first screening comes the kata part then the second screening commenced after where judges are doubled from seven to fourteen, all 8th dan of at least fifteen years of experience where at least 10 must vote in favor of you in order to past the test. Second screening consists of two keiko bouts again lasting for 120 seconds each just like the first screening.

Finally, a written exam at the end of two screening. It is said that the 8th dan is the hardest test in Japan, harder than the bar examination with only at least 0.02% as the passing rate. Just saw it at the National Geographic Channel last week. Out of two million fencers in Japan there are only 400 at least awarded with 8th dan certificate sice World War II. Out of 5000 applicants, at least one will passed. Not bad?

Are you planning to take the hachidan test? It is given twice a year in Japan, one in Kyoto every May and the other one in Tokyo every November?Hope this helps.

[wutian]

Do not seek to follow the footsteps of the old men; seek what they sought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i like this alot

[Confound]

Isn't it a bit early to be considering the hachi-dan test, Wutian? Worry about sho-dan first.

That said, are there any non-Japanese holders of hachi-dan? I've never heard of any. Is it because kendou just hasn't been popular long enough in countries other than Japan, or is it another case of 'non-Japanese = non-competent' phobia'? Personally, I'd say a little efrom column A and a little from column B, but I don't know how many foreigers have actually tried, if any.

c

[wutian]

not considering just learning considering id be loke 52 befor i could even try

[nodachi]

It's always interesting to take a little peak at the challenges that are ahead. I found that information really interesting. Granted, yes, it is ridiculously far ahead, but it does give some more insight into Kendo that many of us beginners have yet to see.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Confound
are there any non-Japanese holders of hachi-dan? I've never heard of any. Is it because kendou just hasn't been popular long enough in countries other than Japan, or is it another case of 'non-Japanese = non-competent' phobia'?

In the Taiwanese Kendo Fed website (officially Chinese Taipei for sports events), they had a few introductions to some 8th Dan and 9th Dan people. To be exact, there is one 9th Dan Hanshi, 5 8th Dan Hanshi, and one 8th Dan without shogo... Many of them are Chief Referees in the WKC (2nd, 5,6,7th etc.). But I don't know if they're all "living" or not as the site has no clear indication of it.

So I believe there should be some in Korea too. Since Kendo is widely "introduced" to Taiwan in the War period so people from these countries learn about Kendo a lot earlier than the West.

Are you saying "non-Japanese" or "Westerners"? :)

[munenmuso]

I think there were two Korean eight dans in the last 50th AKJF Invitation for Non Japanese. See the 'What's new' on the left side of your monitor within this forum to see their names. I think there is a fresh update on the 50th AJKF Champs, saw it there.

BTW, AJKF only gives certificate up to hachidan. How about for 9th dan and 10thdan, who is the body responsible for that acknowledgment and what are the rules applied in order to attain those levels. Confound mentioned that all 10th dan are all dead. Last one I know is Moriji Mochida (10dan)and saw his keiko filmclips as truly amazing. That guy is really a virtuouso with the sword, a true master swordsman. He was 89.

[cklin]

A couple years ago (?) they got rid of 9th and 10th dan. So 8dan hanshi is the highest rank nowadays.

[munenmuso]

How about Junzo Sasamori? He was also a masterswordsman but I'm not sure what level he achieved.

[Confound]

Mingshi, I should be more specific, I meant non-Asian foreigners, that is to say, individuals who are not of Japanese, Korean or Chinese ethnicity.

Were the individuals you mentionned graded in their home country? I was referring to gradings given in Japan. I was under the impression that the only legitimate 8 dan was one taken in Japan. Perhaps this is an idea that Japanese people want me to have, as opposed to the way the world really works.

c

[wutian]

i would think and this is just me that koreans would have it just as hard as non asians. considering the history between the two . From what ive read, koreans have modified kendo with there own history and technique. and most japanese people ive meet have a higher opinion of americans then koreans or maybye they just did't want to tell me different.

[nodachi]

There is a lot of bad blood between Japan and Korea, just look at the news. And Korea is still holding a grudge from the last war Japan had against them like 100 years ago. My history is really bad, but I am at least kinda close on this one. And a random kidnapping of some Japanese people by some Koreans recently has rekindled some problems.

[KhawMengLee]

And Korea is still holding a grudge from the last war Japan had against them like 100 years ago.

Well, lessee...the Koreans have been invaded by just about everyone in their vacinity...chinese, mongols...etc.

I remember watching a documentary on Korea and the guide was telling the host about how most of the invaders came in from this point(some mountain pass in the north). When asked, "who were the invaders?" the korean guide said, "well, everyone."

Yeah, Hideyoshi invaded Korea and used it as a launching point to invade China but he wasn't successful. Korea has always been seen as a colony from that point on.


And a random kidnapping of some Japanese people by some Koreans recently has rekindled some problems.

I found this to be a total load of hypocritical crap. Japan was demanding that North Korea acknowledge and apologize for this "atrocous" act.

Funny then how the Japanese government still refuses to admit and apologise, let alone acknowledge the use of hundreds of thousands of chinese as slave labour during the war. The rape and torture of women in Korea, China, and most of South East Asia as Comfort Women(sex slaves). Rape of Nanking. Testing of biological weapons on civilians(like giving children chocolates with anthrax in it)...murder, genocide, etc.

I am Malaysian chinese and my grandparents lived through this nightmare but I don't hate Japanese people. I just think that one should admit to their mistakes instead of sweeping it under a rug. Kinda kills all the elements of bushido...

Well, as my Dad always said,

" A real man will admit to his mistakes and learn from it."

sorry just ranting.

PEACE
MENG

[AlexM]

-That "war" Japan had with Korea was actually an invasion and subsequent colonisation of the entire peninsula that lasted from 1910 (I think, but it might be earlier) until 1945 (so the memory of occupation is still fresh in the minds of some people).

The main point is: Why would Koreans think they would have to be "approved" by the Japanese? (i.e. try for 8th dan) I seriously doubt that most Koreans care what the Japanese think of their kendo (kumdo).

[Will]

Anyways, back to the topic...

The reason why there isn't any hachidans that are westerners is because of exposure. Let's look at the situation:

To be hachidan, you had to be at least 45...

Now, ideally, you'd get it at 45, but most people would fail with the .02% pass rate.

Let's put you in America because that's where I'm from. Kendo is weaker there than in Japan, where most Japanese might get there hachidan in their 50s or so, you might get it in your sixties...So let's say you got it when you're 65 or so.

2002-65=1937. So you would have to have been born in 1937. Let's add 7 years to it for a ripe starting age. 1944. Oh look, 1944, not many people did kendo in America in 1944...I wonder why...(sarcasm)

Ok, so let's say you were really talented and you started AFTER world war two... I don't think your parents who fought in the war would really aprove.

So basically there aren't any hachidan westerners is because they weren't expose to kendo at a young enough age due to factors out of their control.

But that just might be in America.

[wutian]

why were on the subject of people admitting mistakes lets look at those who invaded japan in the 1800's, amdercans and british. we destroyed the shogunate and helped the destructive majie era in to play, from there japan went downhill after that and all this crap happened. we were better to leave them be. thats my humble opinion it all comes back to american profit, always does. and that is a shame

[AlexM]

Wutian,

You do realise that you just called the most rapid modernisation of any country in the history of mankind (the Meiji restoration of the late 19th century as it were) as the beginning of a "downhill" for Japan.

You realise that without this "destructive Meiji" you would not be even talking about kendo because Japan would still be closed off to most of the world (no Meiji = no kendo abroad).

Hamish, Alex or others can correct me but I believe contemporary kendo (this thing which you want to practice) was developed only after Meiji, or even later (i.e. after it became illegal to carry a sword in public, after the class system was officially abolished, after the feudal era, after bushido basically died in its "Musashi" form, etc.).

Was Japan better off before opening up? I personaly wouldn't want to live during the "samurai" era, but then I'm not Japanese.

Sorry for the long off topic post. I just couldn't help myself.

[wutian]

oh well my piont was i think japan would have developed in its own way. Are they better off for our influince? I dont thinks so but we certianly are.

[roar]

There is a well known kendo-teacher in Europe who got his shodan at 40, and now is 7.dan, trying for hachidan. You do not have to start with kirikaeshi in kindergarten do have a serious kendo-career, and I guess you can do well in iaido as well without having experience from Manchuria.
I have heard that it is more a political issue than a pure kendo-proficiency matter if a non-Japanese could get hachidan. Time will show, as there are several who will try in the close future. If the statistic apply that only 1 out of 500 will pass, it could take some time though.

[GMason]

With Regards to 8th Dan, there are currently *(As far as I know no 8th Dan European's)

The first European to take 8th Dan was John Howell the current chairman of the BKA, unfortunatley he was not part of the 0.02% who passed.

He has quite a Kendo Career behind him John Howell Kendo Career (http://www.kendo.org.uk/people/johnhowell.shtml)

With regards to the National Geographic Documentary "Kendo's most grueling challenge" it's a great program but the Kendo coverage is frustrating. They show you a bit and then cut away. They show you a bit more and then super impose cherry blossom. Well you know what I mean.

[reicheru]

Out of two million fencers in Japan there are only 400 at least awarded with 8th dan certificate sice World War II.

Does anyone know if there's a list (in Japanese or Romaji) of those 400-ish 8-dans?

Rachel

[Confound]

Wutian, you are so lucky we don't live in an anime universe, because I would have pulled out a massive hammer and bonked you on the head! First of all, it's 'Meiji', not 'majie' as in 'majie de?' ('are you serious' in school girl slang, a shortened form of majime for serious or devoted).

As for the Meiji, I am of a divided mind on the subject. On the one hand, I think it would have been foolish for Japan to remain closed to the rest of the world, however, this country is still overtly, no, flagrantly would be the best word, isolationist.

I honestly doubt the process of industrialism would have begun in Japan on its own, for several reasons. Firstly, the tradition of scientific explanation, exploration and invention does not exist here. That remarkable movement called 'The Enlightenment' (which included such luminaries as Voltaire, Rousseau, Hume, etc etc) did not reach Asia. Incidentally, the high Renaissance rediscovery of Muslim and Greek knowledge did not even make a ripple in Far Eastern Asia. As for those of you who point to the marvellous civilization of the Chinese, may I remind you that the Japanese hold the Chinese civilization in contempt. I also need not remind anyone of the irony inherent in that situation.

The Industrial Revolution was not some kind of isolated occurance that randomly popped out of a vacuum. It was the culmination of several other historical movements, and it frankly could not have happened without the optimistic spirit of progress born from the Enlightenment, and the scientific framework provided by Grecian and Muslim texts rediscovered in the Renaissance. (It's a little known fact that roots of modern science were handed to us from Muslim natural philosophers...)

Now, as I was saying, these historical movements never reached Japan. As for developing on their own in Japan, it is highly unlikely. Under the Tokugawa, life was very repressive. People lived in their highly constricted social class, and their children lived and died there as well. However 'peaceful' it may have been, it was a stagnant society. (I use peaceful in a very relative sense, obviously. It was a bit more peaceful to have the entire country ruled by one guy who fought with other people than to have hundreds of little leaders fighting with eachother all the time.)

Also, the rigid hierarchical social structure of Japanese culture resists change and innovation. I challenge anyone to find a significant, original invention from Japan made entirely from Japanese ideas, with no aid from abroad. It doesn't happen. This is not a country with a history of invention, it is a culture of modifcation.

It is a well documented fact that Japan excels in what is called 'secondary science'. Someone else invents something, or discovers something, then a Japanese investigator or inventor makes it too, or discovers it too, or adds their own little modification to the original design. The only Japanese inventions I can think of are revolving sushi bars and cup ramen. Incidentally, a few years ago, cup ramen was voted the most important invention of the century by Japanese people. Very telling indeed.

I have to go to work, so allow me to sum up:

Without wholesale importation of industrial technology from the West, Japan would still be almost the same as it was under the Tokugawas. Honestly, this country still has no central heating, and there are only two hot water taps in a school of 400 students! How industrialized is that? How modern is that?

I frequently hear my Japanese colleagues explain these things by saying that they have no money. Let me put it this way: Pornography is 8% of the GDP, there are thousands of stores doing a very brisk business in erasers with paper sleeves that have anime characters on them (they sell for 3 times the price of a normal eraser, this also applies to other random school supplies), you can't go half a city block without running into three convenience stores (where a ridiculously high amount of people buy their food pre-made everyday), fees are created simply for the sake of creating fees (don't get me started about phone lines). There is definately a different set of priorities here. It is plain to me that money is spent on things that are less that necessary in lieu of making buildings with heating systems and hot water.

I've heard that Hokkaido has hot water and central heating. I'd like to visit Hokkaido, from what I've seen of people from that area (i've met more than a few), it seems like a far more reasonable place.

Now, begin your flames, o ye armchair Japan experts, informed by books about Musashi Miyamoto, anime, tourist guides and a few stays in Tokyo for two weeks... I'm more than ready, I've heard it all before.

c

[wutian]

First off well start on your level, Confound I found 6 spelling errors in your post. This is the worst rant, I have ever read. What exactly is your point? That without western influence, Japan would not have grown into the wonderful crap hole it is today? Alrighty then, I have never lived in Japan and you do. Wish that meant something, I live in America and most people here don’t have a clue about American history. There is not even 300 years of it here. You write about there inability to create original things, well think, maybe if they hadn’t always had to deal with other pushy countries (china America GB) they might have.

We imposed are selves on them, and they took up arms against the world (poorly made arms at that). I don’t think this was likely to happen had they been isolated.

I am not an expert by any means, and always open to learn. You always seem so put out. Poor you, you have the terrible job of educating us ‘armchair experts’ I know there there. Thank you, old wise king of the internet nerds.


The point I was trying to make was that Perry parking his ass on the beach saying “open up or be destroyed” was at best: arrogant assumption. No one knows what would have happened, had that not happened. But it wasn’t his call to make.

[nodachi]

I have a problem with the gyms because they are not heated so in the winter you have to do Kendo on the floor where the sun is shining so it is a few degrees warmer than the rest of the floor so you only lose one toe to frost bite instead of your whole foot.

:)

[Tato]

Hi Confound

He he, you're so used to being flamed on this forum that you can't accept that sometimes you post good knowledge.

I don't know for others, but what you discribed about how the Renaisnace and 'The Enlightenment' (didn't know that this was the word in english, thanks) is right.

I'm not an historian, but for what I know, I think that what you said about the posibilities of change in the Tokugawa sogunate is also correct.

But this historical fact don't change another reality, the expedition of the Commodore Perry was motivated by pure self interest, as many of the foreing policy actions (and agressions) of the USA in the last two centuries.

From another point of wiev, most of the countries in the world have some horror in their history, and I can't name one with a big historical impact that is free from this, certainly not USA (America is a much bigger place than USA, plesase).

Not Spain either, with Torquemada. And of course none of the loosers of WWII (or the winners).

This discussion can go very far if we start to look at the particular merits of each country. (In fact, I don't know an issue with more flame potential :D)

By the way, I don't see the point of discussing all this stuff on this forum. But I can't resist to talk/post abouth history. :p

I've recently see the figures for the last 8th dan test, the succes rate was 1.1% for +1200 7th dan who presented. The succes rate was close to 20% for test 7th dan test.

I had a french translation of this page:

http://www.kendo.or.jp/japanese/result/tokyo-2002-sinsakai.html


Rei

[AlexM]

When did the these boards become Foreign-Policy-World instead of Kendo-World?...Oh right, I started it....shit. I'll hold back from giving you my magnificient insights :D into Japanese politics, the industrial revolution, the Grecians...I mean Greeks, 19th century "Gun-Boat" diplomacy, colonisation, the West, civilisations clashing, etc.

That being said a few points:

1) Hokkaido has central heating because:
a) It be cold in Hokkaido
b) Last place colonised in Japan, so more modern installations. I also heard they speak nice, slow, clean Japanese because their ancestors all came from different regions of Japan (i.e. stick to official dialect or no one understands what anyone else is saying).

2) Commodore Perry was an explorer and soldier who in lieu of actually planting a cross on the soil and claiming Japan as an American colony simply said: "Open yourselves to commerce!". This seems like a step up form the earlier Western attitudes of "veni, vidi, vici". Other countries did the same with Japan. One of the reasons they actually signed treaties instead of invading was because Japan had a strong central government that Westerners could identify with (so they didn't TOTALLY need the influence of the "Enlightenment" in order to become modern...they already had one of the pieces in place). The feeling at the time (mid-19th century) was that free-trade was the future and that opening new markets was absolutely essential to economic growth everywhere (sound familiar?). Add to that the fact that we (Westerners) thought we were doing a good thing by cvilising them dress wearing, gold-fish breading, flower-arranging heathens (disclaimer: AlexM is not to be held accountable for his own rantings).

3) Calling the Japanese isolationists is, while largely true to some extent, also a bit of an exageration. Remember that when Japan did open itself up it sent a bunch of people to Europe (mostly Germany, France and Britannia) to go learn and then come back and modernise (every underdeveloped country in the world does this now, but it doesn't seem to work as well). I've always thought that the Japanese seem to balance well between holding on to their culture and taking things from other cultures (that can't be said for all). I am not hoping for a homogenisation of world cultures so I hope they keep some "uniqueness". . . but hey, that's just me.

Jesus...Did I write that much? Max is right, I just can't shut-up.

To redeem myself I offer this piece of information that is actually on topic:

The youngest person to get 8th dan was Matsubara Teruyuki at the age of 48 in 1984 (I think it was his first try too...but I might be wrong). He was neither a cop, nor a professional/school sensei. He almost took up boxing in University instead of continuing kendo. Even at University he went back with the beginners as if he had never started kendo. Keep in mind I got this from an old text I'm translating to English from French (French which I have to correct and "interpret" because it was originaly translated from Japanese). It's a fairly interesting piece about the importance of solitary practice and other things.

[roar]

"Kendokamax, you already flood the forums with virtual verbal diarrhoea. Desist already. Some of us are trying to get important information."

not only kendokamax

[Sakari]

FYI,

I just heard that Kenichi Yoshimura who has been living in France for 30 years got the 8th dan on this weeks tuesday.

So I think he'll qualify as the first european to get 8th dan, if the info I got is correct.

-Sakari

[wutian]

hey kendomax is the plucky comic relief. i say go max go

[kendokamax]

"Kendokamax, you already flood the forums with virtual verbal diarrhoea. Desist already. Some of us are trying to get important information"

whaat? where is that from?


hum I wonder if Miyazaki will get 8th dan the youngest.

[James]

Originally posted by AlexM
The youngest person to get 8th dan was Matsubara Teruyuki ...... Keep in mind I got this from an old text I'm translating to English from French (French which I have to correct and "interpret" because it was originaly translated from Japanese). It's a fairly interesting piece about the importance of solitary practice and other things.

Alex that does sound interesting, if you ever do get it translated in written form (not sure if you are translating it and writing it down or just trying to read it) I would be interested in reading it.
If there is any possiblility of mailing it or putting it up somewhere let me know.

cheers,
James

[GMason]

I would be interested in a copy as well if possible.

[AlexM]

James,

The translation will be in written form. It should be eventually posted on the McGill Kendo website (God knows when). I don't want to promise anything because this translation stuff is tough work so I don't know when it'll be done. I've already completed work on another shorter one by a 7th dan (Abe Tetsushi) on the "goal" or "point" of kendo (it's a shorter 3-4 pages, easy read). That one should be posted very soon. If you want, I'll try to remember to send you a PM once that's been done.

Our sensei gave some of us short pieces (translated from Japanese to French, French which must be corrected and interpreted because it's an almost literal translation from Japanese) to read, correct and translate, some related to our own kendo, others just interesting texts. They're being translated into English and French. They should all be on the website eventually (although everybody's busy doing other things so don't hold your breath). And yes, I use a spell checker and a dictionnary when doing this so mistakes shoud be minimal (unlike my posts).

And if you think this is a ploy to get people to visit our website. . . yes, yes it is.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think Nishikawa-sensei is one of the youngest if not the youngest. He passed this year on his first try, I believe he's 46.

[kendokamax]

there is already one text in the french section:

LA CONCEPTION DU " MEN UCHI " DE NARAZAKI SENSEI PAR KENJI TOKITSU

[stinkyKote]

I could be wrong, but I could've sworn last year a 9th dan sensei from japan came to visit our dojo ... he was pretty old, in his 80s-
I'll see if I can find someone that remembers his name-

[Confound]

I won't repeat myself, or make excuses for the history lesson, but it was one some people sorely needed. Please stop romanticizing Japan's history! It was just as nasty and brutish as the feudal periods of every other country!

As for the potential for science and scientific thinking, I honestly believe that Japan would not have gotten very far without the introduction of the scientific method during the Meiji. However, that isn't something you Japan-worshippers wish to hear. By all means, be my guests.

"Japan is God's own country." Happy? Good. That's what the Japanese think too. If this is God's country, then Anselm was certainly wrong about God. He is definately not 'greater than that which can be conceived", he's more like a snivelling little tag along.

c

[Will]

Originally posted by AlexM
The youngest person to get 8th dan was Matsubara Teruyuki at the age of 48 in 1984 (I think it was his first try too...but I might be wrong).



Um...I think a sensei named Hiroyuki Tsukamoto sensei got his 8th dan at 46, the youngest age allowable.

I read it at an interview here (below)

http://www.midwestkendo.com/tsuka.htm

[Will]

This will probably be the only time i'll agree with Confound...


Originally posted by Confound
Please stop romanticizing Japan's history!


I've made long speeches about this when chillin' with a couple guys from my dojo, but i'm keeping this short....

Every cultures have there ups and down. I get a little sick of hearing the nobility of the samurai and the Japanese people from the high school samurai freaks at my dojo. These guys do everything to learn about Japanese culture and romanticize it, which is ok i guess. But respect your own culture. Time in time again people come thinking Japan is the greatest culture in the planet and totally jock their own, but Japan's not. Every culture is great, every culture has had it's ups and its down, no one culture is better than another. Yes, the Japanese culture is great, but so is your own. Instead of learning about some other culture and glorifying it, go home and learn about your own, where you came from, what your ancestors had to do. I know a lot of people are in touch with their culture and might be offended to what i'm saying, but i'm not speaking to you. I'm speaking to the people who glorify a culture that isn't theirs but want it to be theirs. I know the response, "I do know my own culture," but then why are you glorifying another culture so much?

Why can't we all just get along? Let's stop talking about whose fault is what, let's just reflect on the past and remember it and cherish it, not analyse it.

Oh, and the people who reply angrily to this are usually the ones who don't know about their culture and are going to lie about knowing about it :p

[AlexM]

Thanks for the info on age gentlemen. This confirms my suspicions about the piece I'm translating:

a) It may be slightly out of date (only with regards to that kind of trivia, all the other stuff in it is still pertinent). I think it was written in the late 80's/early 90's.
b) My interpretation of the original translator's French leaves much to be desired (you have no idea how tough this is).

I'll try to figure all this out once I speak with the translator (that may take a while). Maybe I can get more out of the original Japanese text (not bloody likely) if I can get my hands on it.

[kendokamax]

I agree with Will,

It makes me wonder too when people are being too much japanese when they are actually not. I think it's a bit direspectful towards your own culture a little.


To love his/her country and society,
To contribute to the development of culture
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples


does that ring a bell samurai boy and girl?


hey
AlexM, the "translator" will be at the grading this weekend so..bring your textes!!!!

[KhawMengLee]

First off well start on your level, Confound I found 6 spelling errors in your post. This is the worst rant, I have ever read. What exactly is your point?

well, dude...for a guy that has a quote that says, "the ppinciple of stratagy is to have one thing and know a thousand things -musashi", every time he posts, I wouldn't go harping on spelling, eh?



You write about there inability to create original things, well think, maybe if they hadn’t always had to deal with other pushy countries (china America GB) they might have.

China? pushy? how so?


The point I was trying to make was that Perry parking his ass on the beach saying “open up or be destroyed” was at best: arrogant assumption. No one knows what would have happened, had that not happened. But it wasn’t his call to make.

Coming from an ex-colonial nation, Malaysia, I would say that nobody likes to be colonized. But unlike many colonists the British weren't so bad. They, unlike the French(Indo-china), let the locals run administration and trade. So when they left the country could still stand on its own. Though one can still see the aftermath in the social status of the three main race groups. Malays in Government and Administration. Chinese in commerce and mining. Indians in labour.

Bad colonists...look at indonesia, vietnam, etc...vietnam is particularly a good example of bad colonialism. The French didn't allow any locals into trade and administration, only labour. Not surprising the country fell apart when they left.

Colonialism sucks but where would we be without it? China would probably be under one of the Dowager's mutant inbred decendants and we would still think we are the middle kingdom.

Just think back to the Monty Python movie "The Life of Brian",

"What have the Romans ever done for us, eh?"

PEACE
MENG

[Kenshi]

Hey,

I was told this by an IKF Director (I am paraphrasing)- the IKF does not stipulate grading rules, but all tend to follow the ZNKR. Thus, any association could create rules for awarding their own hachidan etc. In fact, I was told that Germany has approached the IKF/ZNKR about awarding their own shogo (renshi/kyoshi/hanshi) grades ..... I think because they are practically impossible to get under the new guidlines (unless your nihongo is excellent).

Howell sensei told me that he attempted hachidan so that it would encourage other Europeans etc. to give it a go. It seems most are reticent due to reasons given prior in the thread.

If one assocation starts awarding its own grades (esp. shogo), I bet the rest will follow.

Havent there been home-grown [nisei japanese] hachidans in the states?

Cheers,

[James]

Originally posted by AlexM
James,

The translation will be in written form...... I don't want to promise anything because this translation stuff is tough work so I don't know when it'll be done.

Good news,
appreciate you are doing this in your own time, I look forward to reading it when it's done. Maybe you should submit it to KW too.
James

[Confound]

It would be interesting to know if any other countries are awarding shogo. Good point. Does anyone know? I doubt I'll ever make it that far, however, it's interesting trivia.

re: Meng
<massive sarcasm>
yes, China was so pushy over that Nanking thing. I mean, why did they have to take up arms anyway? Why couldn't they just submit nicely to being colonized.
</massive sarcasm>

I agree, Meng. Not the first time either. I don't like the way Japan talks about the Rape of Nanking, it's always referred to as 'the excursion' or 'the outing'.

"Come along, boys, let's have a picnic in China! Don't forget to pack your guns."

"Itadakimasu and pass the ammo."

Also, Will, thanks for the note on reverse ethnocentrism. Glad to know I'm not the only one who wants to sit those kinds of people down in a chair with some history textbooks.

c

[Will]

There are some nisei hachidan in the states, we also have several who came to the states as young men that also reached hachidan.

[wutian]

Will,
for you to think, that i might not know my culture is upseting. I live in the united states in my humble opinion the greatist nation on this rock. sure we have our problems but we are world devolpmet and econimic leaders. I was born in germany, ive been to france, canida and mexico. ive lived in 7 of the us states. And the one thing that is so great is that we are a culmination of world cultures. And we learn from others mistakes and achievements. and as my grand pappy used to say "if we dont learn from the past we are doomed to make it mistakes". I study japan i like its history. and when discusing kendo that is the one aspect of my personality that shows the most. I think its the same for alot of us here. all history should be romantisized a bit. Why?, because its the storys of our past that teach us the most about our future.



Meng,

I wasnt harping about confounds spelling. see, i have a spelling problem I know this. I get tired of people who cant find ways to attack my point so they attack my spelling. so I lashed out. and that was imature I know. As to any referances on china dont think any change could make them a worse nation. those duck romancers are responceable for some of the most evil acts in recent history. that is all i have to say about that one.

everyone,
thanks for the informitive info on the dan system i learned alot



"free tibet"

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by wutian

point 1: "I live in the united states in my humble opinion the greatist nation on this rock."

point 2: "As to any referances on china dont think any change could make them a worse nation. those duck romancers are responceable for some of the most evil acts in recent history."


Hi again Wutian,

Without being dis-respectful to you but I just want to point out that you are making far too many rash judgements and making some rather crude assumptions that countries like China are responsible for some of the most evil acts in recent history, yes maybe according to you and yes according to me too, however, I will not be blind in saying that countries like the USA and even my own country Great Britain are exempt from that too, I think these two countries have done just about the same level of damage to the world as china has done too...I can very easily list all these tradegies that these two supposedly democratic countries have done. However I do not have the inclination to talk about the subject as it will just end up as a flame war...and we are not here to talk about which country is the best, who has committed the most genocides bla, bla, bla, but we are here to share knowledge about Kendo...so please mate keep it to kendo.

Thanks mate.

[2muchryt]

since the IKF recognizes the KKA (Korean Kumdo Asscociation)
and Kendo in Taiwan is directly under the IKF, all of their
rankings are valid despite any individual prejudice.

my humble opinion is that if a westerner is to reach
a rank of 8dan then she (or he) must not see her (or his) kendo
as "japanese kendo" or "korean kendo", but purely kendo.
The greats such as Morichida Sensei, Mori Sensei, and Sasamori Sensei,
should be veiwed as great kendo masters because their kendo
was great, not because they were japanese.

learning japanese, living and studying kendo in japan
is still the best way to learn kendo.
however, a westener, no matter how much one tries,
will never, ever be japanese.
as kendo grows in ethnic diversity, the face of kendo
is slowly changing, and there will always be some of the
old guard the will be less than thrilled with this fact.

one of the great things about kendo is on any given sunday
one can see japanese, koreans, and chinese in battle with
each other with swords drawn in shiai. deep!
i was at a tournament in texas where
texas was fighting mexico and california was fighting new york.
this is truly a beautiful thing.
after the tournament there is a chance for all
people to come together and to communicate and sincerely
dialouge with each other. (over a few beers, of course)

we all have our own warrior ancestors, whether
they were called "samurai", "hwarang", "knights", or "braves".
if we (westeners) are to reach 8 dan,
i humbly put forward that it is the
spirits of our own ancestors and the guidance of our
(usually japanese or korean) sensei that will get us there.

[hamish]

Check out Kendo World no. 2 for more info. on the shogo system, but in a nutshell, the AJKF wants to get away from looking after the rest of the world, which is why the tests must be done in Japanese, and letting them follow the IKF guidelines. Any country can award shogo if they so decide, and same for 8th dan as well, which to my knowledge have been given domestically in the US, Korea and Taiwan (anyone know about Brazil or any others?)

Of course the Japanese 8th dan is the most well regarded (and if you saw the Korean 8th dans in the 50th WKC demo matches you'd know why...)

Hamish

[cklin]

Hamish -- 50th WKC?

[iwatekenshi]

Hamish (were you mostly taking video at shomen courtside?),
Anyway...I was at the 50th All-Japan and I agree with you. It was a bit different. Glad to see someone else noticed.

[2muchryt]

does anyone sense a "gaijin wall"
do japanese sensei tend to teach more to japanese sensei
and stop teaching gaijin at a certain point?
or are koreans, americans, etc. simply incapable of
learning higher level kendo.

[2muchryt]

is it just time? do non japanese need hundreds
of years to improve. (at whose guidance?)
its easy to say "oh look at that 'korean kendo',
its not as good as 'japanese kendo'"
but what can we do to raise the level of just 'kendo'?
americans used to say the same about american basesball
in regards to the japanese players,
i guess that was before Nomo and Ichiro.

[Alex]

No there is no "Gaijin Wall".

No there is no cut-off point where every Japanese teacher innately decides to stop teaching the secrets of kendo to foreigners.

Why are there no foreign 8th dans who were graded in Japan? Because there are stuff-all Japanese 8th dans either, when you consider the overall kendo population.

It is well-known that less than 1% pass the 8th dan exam, and many who fail have been training full on, full time, for over 40 years. Not only that, they have been training with hundreds if not thousands of other people who have also been training every day for 30,40,50 years, or even more. High level, and high intensity. And even then not many are able to pass. When any non-Japanese can claim the same level of training then maybe we will see a non-Japanese 8th dan graded in Japan. :D

[taiwnezboi]

why is it that everyone seems to look down on Korean Kumdo? you guys make it sound like Kumdo practitioners are terrible.. Korea gets second in the WKC all the time.. and there's also the fact that Japanese players get paid to practice Kendo all day.. does any other country get this luxury? how do you expect to pay the rent by practicing Kendo 8 hours a day?

[2muchryt]

I agree with taiwanezboi. Korea definetly rocks in the WFC!
And my humble opinion is that its just a matter of time before
Korea unseats Japan. I would think that people would see
that as a good thing for kendo. Football would be boring if
the same team won year after year after year.

But the subject of the last few posts was not about winning
tournaments. It was commented that at the WFC, some people
thought that the Korean 8 dans were not as good as their
Japanese counterparts.
I believe some of the korean students of today that are
"training with hundreds if not thousands of other people who
have also been training every day" and have more resources
available to them than did their teachers, will, after 40 years,
possibly be able to claim the same the same level of training.
And yes, maybe, we will see a non japanese 8 dan that even
the Japanese will aprove of.
For the sake of kendo lets hope so.

[AlexM]

I think one of the major reasons some people dislike kumdo is that it's seems to be very "sport" oriented. I saw a few clips from a university level competition in Korea and while I really like the attacking style they were using, the concept of zanshin was either non-existant or completely different. The best example of this was that often times the person hitting a kote would then turn his back and run away from the opponent. Turn your back = no zanshin = no ippon, but in this particular competition the judges gave points for this. It really just looked like they were trying to hit each other with the shinai (sort of like fencing... i.e. no "after-hit"). Also the fighters often seemed off-balance (something that is frowned upon in kendo) and there were quite a few falls. But I think that Koreans that participate in international competitions adopt a more "kendo" style of zanshin (and I was watching a university level competition, not exactly known in Japan as well for being a hot-bed of kendo with good fundamentals). And yes the Korean team did really well at the last WKC. For instance in team matches they knocked out Brazil with 10 ippon to 0. No country with a very Japanese style of kendo (Canada, US, Brazil) wanted to face them because they simply weren't use to the style.

[kendokamax]

ya respect kumdo yo! lol

I hope I can practice in korea 1 or 2 week when i go to japan.

there is a small difference in style but who cares..

I usualy dont want to give escuses to myself like: "oh the zanshin was weird, why did they gave the point to him?" If the dude hits me at the good place that means I did a mistake.

I personaly want to learn from the agressiveness of korean kumdo player.

anyway my kendo will not be japanese or neither korean, it's my canadian kendo. When you live in a multi-cultural place like canda you learn to learn from everybody.

so hopefully if someone non-japanese gets 8th dan, it wasnt because he became interiorly japanese or korean.

[taiwnezboi]

"The best example of this was that often times the person hitting a kote would then turn his back and run away from the opponent."

Is this when kote is hit.. then the player charges into the opponent and kind of does a little turn off of him.. then backs away? That's how we're taught to do it at higher levels. I don't know your definition of zanshin exactly.. but isn't it something like alertness after the hit? If it is then I think that there is alertness after the kote is hit.. because if you turn correctly you're still facing and looking at the opponent? Not really sure as I'm not really familiar with the meanings of a lot of Japanese terms.

[wutian]

"korea unseating japan" well call me when that happens id like to see it

[taiwnezboi]

just give it 10 more years.. =P

[AlexM]

How to describe this: The hit on kote is there it's just that the attacker then immediately turns his back and runs in the opposite direction (like he wants to be anywhere but close to the opponent). He doesn't go forward at any time. Think of what you would do if you hit a hornets nest with a stick (assuming you'd want to do this): you'd hit it and then run like hell in the opposite direction, not looking back to see the hornets racing towards you.

The person who got hit is no longer in the field of vision of the person running (literaly) away, the attacker his now unaware of what his opponent is doing (i.e. no zanshin). Go to kumdovj.com to see clips of this kind of thing.

As for Korea unseating Japan don't be surprised when it happens. At the last WKC Canada almost upset Japan in the semi-finals of the team matches (almost don't count of course but it's just an indication that Japan is by no means invincible). Which would have left Canada to face Korea in the finals (this would have ended with an embarrasingly lop-sided victory for the Koreans). Even the finals match between Korea and Japan looked headed for an upset victory in favour of the boys in white until Japan came back into it and won.

[2muchryt]

i was there at the 11th (?) san jose WKC.
yeah Canada rocked! Ariga Sensei was great.
and the Sensei who does nito ryu tied with Eiga Sensei!

Hey, don't sell Canada short in a Korea vs. Canada match either.
Ariga Sensei Trains in the US at a Korean Dojang :Tustin Dojang.
so he is used to the mori-hori-summook agressive thing.

to the REST OF THE WORLD: Gambatte Kudasai !

[kendokamax]

Hey, don't sell Canada short in a Korea vs. Canada match either.
Ariga Sensei Trains in the US at a Korean Dojang :Tustin Dojang.
so he is used to the mori-hori-summook agressive thing.


AlexM is not the one who is selling Canada short, actually these were the words of the Team Canada coach Ray Murao. He was telling us that if Canada would face Korea, in the world, it wouldnt be as close as against Japan.

[taiwnezboi]

AlexM: I'm still not really sure what you're talking about with the kote thing. I'm not Korean so I can't read the stuff on kumdovj.com, and therefore can't find the videos that you're talking about. But, the fact is that people who practice Kumdo still compete against people who practice Kendo and score points. This shows that the zanshin isn't non-existent because your shimpan wouldn't give out points for any kote that didn't have zanshin? Am I correct?

[AlexM]

If you're not sure about what I'm talking about that's probably a good thing. If you'd seen it you'd most likely cringe a bit (it looks bad). I'm well aware of the success of Korean style dojangs in North America but it's been my (limited) experience that they pretty much fight like everybody else, and that everyone else fights like them. I'm probably not picking up on the slight differences in styles between kumdo and kendo players but then again I'm not really looking for them either. I have no idea what goes on inside a dojang practice-wise.

The stuff I was refering to was from Korea (not a US based Korean dojang). I've never seen that kind of thing (the type of kote I was describing) in a tournament here.

As for shinpan giving points, that's probably not the best way to test for zanshin. There are some points given where the zanshin was "optional" (and yes some very high ranking senseis can't get this right. . . but that's a whole other story). That being said, the shinpan in the clips from Korea that I saw seemed to indicate that the shinpan put emphasis on datotsu and datotsu-bu without really caring about the zanshin part of what, in kendo at least, should constitute a valid hit. Remember now, this was just a general impression from seeing a few clips and films of kumdo as played in Korea under Korean rules (and in University competitons).

Last thing (hopefully, seeing as how we've hijacked this thread), kumdo players know what kind of kendo the judges are looking for at an international level and in tournaments that have mostly Japanese trained shinpan. Kumdo players are perfectly able to do fine kendo, the question is do they want to? (they probably don't when in Korea. . . why act like the Japanese in your own home after all). The Koreans on the national team usually have international experience and that's why they get good hits in kendo competitions, they know what they're doing.

[taiwnezboi]

Good points =) . I'm not really sure about the difference between Kumdo dojangs in North America and their counterparts in Korea. I train at a Kumdo dojang in Northern Virginia (as you have probably guessed) and I would have thought that the dojangs in North America would be similar to the ones in Korea because our masters are from Korea, but you probably know more about this area than me. I originally thought that you were looking down on Kumdo (as many people on this forum seem to) but I see that you weren't. ^^

[AlexM]

Who me? I love Korea (and kumdo). The people are nice (although I heard that they have a short temper. . . just as well, so do I), the food is great (sort of like Middle-East spice meets Japanese noodles) and the women: Don't get me started on the cute, short-tempered Korean girls. . .

Disclaimer: The poster may not be held accountable for his chauvanist, biased and prejudiced opinions.

[2muchryt]

I totally disagree!!
the spice was imported to korea from mexico
via the portuguse and spaniards not the middle east.
ora le! jaguar warriors ! viva la raza! and dont get me started
on those short tempered latinas !!

okay, okay, we really did hijack this thread.
gommen na sai!

[Tato]

Yea baby, we went everywhere first! :cool:

[kendokamax]

just updated our website so if you want you can take a look at 3 textes that the club translated. There is french and english versions.

www.mcgillkendo.ca

just click on Archives

and there is more to come

[sminki]

taiwnezboi

i don't think the style of kumdo taught at your dojang is really different from the type of kumdo taught in Korea (generally speaking). Your teacher was once a member of the Korean national kumdo team.

[Steve]

The "kote thing" you guys are talking about isn't just a Korean thing, its a standard waza.

Here's the step by step on how to do it (just look in any Japanese Kendo book for this)

1) kote opens. step forward slightly on your right foot and hit kote. Key point: your right foot lands (literally) IN FRONT of your left. Almost as if you were going to cross your legs, but stopping short.

2) turn your body via your hips. right hip turns left, left hip turns right.

3) your left foot now moves back (which is now to the right of where you started due to the hip motion above).

4) You right foot now follows. Zanshin. You should be facing the side of your opponent at this point. You can continue with Zanshin while facing the opponents side, some say to keep turning to face his back. DO NOT keep turning around if at any point your opponent is not entirely in front of you. A common error is for people to turn around too much during this waza, and lose sight of their opponent.

This is not only dangerous, but disrespectful to your opponent.

Maybe i'll see if my roomie can scan the pics on doing this...if anyone wants.

[Koki]

Well, i was doing that kind of debana kote too (turning my back after hitting) until my sensei told me to stop. After hitting, you 're supposed to go forward. People turning their back because they are afraid of getting the nuki men. Of course, you can still get points at tournament. However, it doens't look good.

And yea, we see this in the US too, not just Korea..