On speaking to Sempai....

[David J]

Here's a tricky one....

If I am training with a kohai (I have some now....;)) I will of course offer advice to aid their growth, pointing out their mistakes etc...

But should I do the same with sempai? What if they are a highish Dan grade?

An example - we were doing paired kihon exercises. My sempai partner (quite rightly) pointed out an error in my cutting, for which I was grateful. However I held myself back from saying "Yep, and you're kinda doing it too!"

Can one say these things? Is it wise? Perhaps if you know that person very well, and say it in the right way, but even then....

Obviously, if a sempai asks "are my men cuts too XXX?" I would do my best to reply if I could, but right now I feel very ambivalent about unsolicited remarks - mutual growth (I should), respect for my seniors/betters (I shouldnt) :confused:

<rei>

Dave

[munenmuso]

I do experience that kind of thing, sometimes it's amusing when your sempai tells you that's it's wrong but when they do it you kinda think that's its worst than you do and you feel this itch to tell him that 'hey just look yourself in the mirror' and you wish that you can put a real mirror in front of him so that you can show him that what he tells you is an irony. As you said, kendo is an honest mirror........ Pride is one of the mental stains of kendo, if you blatantly tell him that it is wrong, what gives you the moral ascendancy to tell him even if you deem that you are more correct, him being your sempai. It helps if you just listen to him and affirm, there is a difference between listening alone and following what he tells you if you don't want to mislead you kendo. Sometimes, silence is indeed a virtue.

But good kendo instruction is supposed to be a 'truth in action'. Seeing a sempai doing things wrong and instructing his kohai of an unmend error is also wrong. You can confirm this with your sensei after practice to validate if your correct and for sure your sensei will correct those sempais who do less in kendo.

[Atama]

I also notice the do as I say not as I do thing, however my sensei will always say that he himself is not perfect and dosen't always perform techniques correctly, but he makes sure to teach his students text book kendo and corrects them as needed.

At the end of the day even sempai's are just there to learn

[David J]

Ah yes, but the tricky thing is - how are they going to improve unless someone points out their mistakes? If they believe they are doing cuts correctly, and in fact are not, they arent learning, just maintaining bad habits they may be unaware of....

<rei>

Dave

[Haowen]

Why not just ask them, "I notice you were doing XYZ, that's not how I do it, can you correct me?"

That way it seems like you're asking for advice instead of giving it.

[cklin]

Sempai have sempai too right?

[David J]

Originally posted by cklin
Sempai have sempai too right?

So is your point that I should leave it to them?

<rei>

Dave

[Confound]

Your sempai is the responsibility of the sensei, and his or her sempai. Take this scenario for example:

You are making error X. Your sempai notices it, and tells you nicely that you're making it, and a way to fix it. Unbeknownst to you, your sempai is just passing along good advice from the sensei, because yesterday, the sempai was making error X too, and now he or she is working on fixing it as well.

The process of change in kendou is sometimes long. Fixing a much practiced mistake can take months. Maybe your sempai is working on that error already, and wants to spare you the bother of having to fix it when you're at his level.

If you're thinking something along the lines of 'look in a mirror, buddy' then your attitude in practice is really bad. I'm habitually insubordinate and quick tempered, but in kendou, it's different. Put aside the bickering, sarcasm and insubordination you have when not in a men. During training it is best to keep an even temper. Whatever is said to you is probably in your best interest. If a sempai is acting like a petty tyrant, then it will serve you well to take the high road. Others will notice it, and if they don't, you have the personal satisfaction of not stooping to that idiot's level.

That said, it isn't really your job to correct your sempais, so stop getting your panties in a knot about it. Don't even worry about your kohai, unless you're third dan or above. Be kind to them, help them along, but they're not your students, they're not your teaching responsibility yet.

c

[mingshi]

Originally posted by David J
how are they going to improve unless someone points out their mistakes?

Many of the teachings in Kendo does not lie in the verbal part, but in the physical part.

If there's a problem about your certain bad habit, you should be smart enough to realize it yourself, watch what that particular thing is done from Senpai/Sensei, and improve.

If there's a problem, it'll show and your opponents will see. They'll just wack on them. I used to get tons of Kote cuts on a practice... and after that I know --I got the wrong grip... so I worked on that.

If someone actually come over and TELL me, "hey wrong grip!!"... Well these things happen (like "hey relax") and it's just that the Senpai/Sensei wants to do the verbal teaching part.

You can definitely improve WITHOUT people POINTING them out for you. Be enlightened!

[cklin]

Originally posted by David J


So is your point that I should leave it to them?

<rei>

Dave

Yeah, what Confound said, but without the knotted panties bit. :)

I don't really agree with the bit about not teaching your kohai. No matter how inexperienced I may be, my kohai are even less so, and by helping them and teaching them what I've heard and learned, it will maybe spare them some of the mistakes I'd made in the past. That's the point of being a sempai. At every level, every person has something to offer to their kohai; I don't think 3dan is some magic number that gives you license to all of the sudden teach kendo.

[ben]

I think it's bad form to point out your perception of your sempai's shortcomings. Also I think it is a little character building to keep your opinions to yourself sometimes. I personally find it refreshing when I manage to keep my big mouth shut, because usually the desire to open my mouth and tell them they're doing something wrong has got more to do with my own hurt ego than a heartfelt desire to help them with their kendo.

And sempai should teach by example above all. This helps avoid the potential ego battles of too much verbal instruction.

b

[reicheru]

I agree with Confound's suggestion that sempai may often be passing along advice that they've also heard. I know that I'm much more aware of mistakes that other people make when it's something that I've been criticized for myself -- that's what I'm thinking about when I practice, so that's what I (consciously or not) look for in others, and as such that often figures into the advice that I offer my kohai. Actually, I don't often offer advice to kohai because of the language barrier and my own insecurity about kendo, i.e. feeling like I'm not good enough to be offering anyone advice, but when I do it's usually advice that's been given to me at some point too. Unless it's to tell some of the junior high school boys that they've nearly broken my wrist with their kote -- I don't *think* that's something I do too!

BTW, there have been a few times when a kohai has pointed out something I'm doing wrong, and I've never taken offense -- mostly because usually I'm not that much better than those kohai, and also because it's usually advice that I've heard before from sensei!

-Rachel

[Confound]

Re: teaching kohai

Note that I didn't say not to help them, just not to assume too much responsibility. I don't think that san-dan is a magical number, however, I do think that by that time, in most North American dojos at least, one would be near the top of the hierarchy (as opposed to over here, where you'd still be a bottom feeder).

That said, it is important to help kohai, but one should be careful to maintain a balance. At low levels, you are not the teacher, and you should never try to behave like one. That is only my personal experience, and opinion.

c

[Haowen]

I don't understand this reticence about pointing out discrepancies between what you think is right, and what you perceive a senior to be doing. From my point of view if there is a discrepancy then one of us does not have a complete understanding of the matter. If that is so then there is room for discussion and improvement, regardless of ranks and skill levels.

In fact as a junior it is more likely that my understanding is incorrect and what I thought was wrong is actually correct practice, and I am the one to gain from this discussion, not the sempai!

Kendo has evolved from the strict samurai training regimes of yore. In these modern days open communication and a supportive environment for all to learn from each other is far more desirable than a regimented quasi-military dojo segmented by rank. Discussing topics in kendo (like what we are doing now!) is a good thing of itself, and really does not have to be tangled in all the politics of rank and seniority.

[Confound]

Haowen,

I think the crucial factor here is the timing of the comments. We have been talking about mentionning a sempai's prospective problems while in keiko, or kihon waza, or some other time while in bogu. The key here is the fact that both parties are wearing bogu, and in the middle of training.

If you wish to discuss the finer points of technique with a sempai, in reference to that sempai's waza, it is best done when both parties are out of bogu. Then, you are at your leisure to approach the sempai and talk. While in training, time is short, and hurried conversation takes time away from training, and may cause misunderstandings.

c

[James]

Originally posted by cklin

Yeah, what Confound said, but without the knotted panties bit. :)

I'd also like to take this opportunity to agree with Confound.
Especially the during training bit.

What a sempai is telling you to work on for your kendo, may not be what they need to do for their kendo, it almost definitely isn't.

When you first started you may have been taught to cut men in a certain way, but you may notice that your sempai in jigeiko with eachother all have their own very different men cuts, and not they way you have been taught to practice so far; this doesn't mean they are doing it wrong.

Let's say for example a sempai tells you not to hit kote so hard.
Then he hits you hard himself.
Well maybe he has the same problem, or just maybe he is demonstrating something to you.

You may also get different advice from different sempai, it is up to you to take on board, or not , what they are saying.
Generally we have enough to worry about or own kendo without worrying about our sempais kendo, they probably have a better understanding of what is wrong with their kendo than their kohai has.

If you feel you have to say something, examine if you are sure of what you are going to say, maybe in the pub not the dojo, and maybe as a question instead of giving advice. Depends where you feel you are in Shu-ha-ri.

Except that she would probably disagree with taking the Kendo into the pub, I think Counfound has made all the salient points.

[Haowen]

Ah, I understand now. Thanks for clearing that up, Confound and James. Yes, timing and attitude are the most important, otherwise it just screws up everyone's opportunity to learn.

[James]

I think Mingshi's point is important too. Kendo isn't always, or even usually, taught verbally. A (japanese) sempai said to me in the pub after training, words to the effect of "James did you understand what I was telling you?" Actually he hadn't spoken to me during the session, but losing a kote everytime I did a certain technique told me all I needed to know. (No I am not going to tell you what the technique was!)

[Hyaku]

I have to agree and say that even your Sensei gets stuck sometimes. I remember the time it was sort of hand to mouth situation where I would go off in the pursuit of reaching a higher level to help my students.

It goes a lot for Iai. You teach something you thought was right then find out at a seminar that you had misunderstood and go back to the dojo to re-adjust. The late Haruna sensei said "Its not seitei that is changing, its people going to seminars that have not understood what has been taught in the firsts place".

Ninety year old Iwata sensei will tell you that when he studied at a young age not a word was spoken. It was purely learning by example. Even now in Japan, diligent students learn from listening only. No hands up, no questions. Its only when you set a test you really know if they absorbed what you said and taught.

Rather difficult for a teacher who is trying to start up a language conversation too.

But its changing. Last Saturday evening Sekiguchi Komei Sohke (Sekiguchi ryu) spoke to men for a solid 50 minutes without taking a breath about the value of why we do seiza nobu including a complete historical overview. He said, Do you know why people dont know?... because your teachers, teachers, teacher did not tell them. But fortunately mine did"!

Hyaku

[Fai]

I have noticed sometimes some of the junior members of the club have tried to go way above the level they currently are and don't actually show the respect you should have for the seniors.

For example: The position where people sit when lining up. Trying to teach people who are below you while your own skills is below par.

[taiwnezboi]

"Trying to teach people who are below you while your own skills is below par."

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that the "junior player" isn't as good as they should be but tries to teach people below him? Even if he isn't as good as he "should be" he should still be better than those below him. To them, he is a sempai. Isn't that correct?

I guess I could be considered a "junior player." I have only been training for about 1 and a half years and am a 4th kyu. Even if I'm not the best out of the 4th kyus, I still have more experience than most of the people below me, so what's wrong with teaching them?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by taiwnezboi
[BI guess I could be considered a "junior player." I have only been training for about 1 and a half years and am a 4th kyu. [/B]
"Beginner" is a better word for you right now. Your teaching should be confined to providing nice targets for your juniors, unless your instructor asks you specifically to help out.

[David J]

Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

"Beginner" is a better word for you right now. Your teaching should be confined to providing nice targets for your juniors, unless your instructor asks you specifically to help out.

Really? Cant he even help someone who started a week ago? I take your point, and I think there is a "too many cooks" danger with half-knowledgable people teaching the complete newbie (and confusing them completely), but cant he be helpful to someone with obvious problems / lack of understanding? Not trying to run the dojo, just helping along a kohai?

<rei>

Dave

[taiwnezboi]

"Your teaching should be confined to providing nice targets for your juniors, unless your instructor asks you specifically to help out."

Actually, just yesterday my instructor told me to be a target for the 9 and 8 kyus and correct them when they did something wrong. Other than that though, when we do skills practice (don't know what to call it), I'm usually on the "higher belt side" and have to let the lower belts hit me. When we do that, I try to tell them what they're doing wrong as I see it, and only if they're 2 grades or more lower than me. Should I not be doing this?

[Haowen]

Yeah, if a beginner colleague is doing something obviously wrong (e.g. swinging the shinai like an axe) should it not be pointed out? Maybe they just don't know they are doing it, and could use some feedback. The sensei can't have eyes everywhere. And it may reduce the bruising on the motodachi somewhat.

More subtle points should definitely be left to the sensei, though.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by taiwnezboi

Actually, just yesterday my instructor told me to be a target for the 9 and 8 kyus and correct them when they did something wrong. Other than that though, when we do skills practice (don't know what to call it), I'm usually on the "higher belt side" and have to let the lower belts hit me. When we do that, I try to tell them what they're doing wrong as I see it, and only if they're 2 grades or more lower than me. Should I not be doing this?
You should be doing this if its OK by your instructor. Certainly after a couple of years you should be able to tell if their arms are too high or low or something really obvious. However usually its best if the new guys are getting advice only from the seniors, and then just get a chance to practice with the others. If every time you go to do kiri-kaeshi you get a different person giving you advice, it can get confusing and frustrating.

[ben]

There's a big difference between telling someone they're hitting too hard - which IMHO is fine and in fact necessary from a safety perspective - and TEACHING.

There might be a lot of reasons why your sensei has not told a particular beginner that they're using too much right hand. Maybe they are getting them to concentrate on something more fundamental. A good kendo teacher knows when a student is ready to receive instruction, which usually means actively NOT teaching them certain things (ie nearly everything). Less experienced people tend to want to teach not because it is asked of them, but because they want to show their kohai how much they know. What ends up happening is that they tell the people below them what it is they know (or maybe only sense) they should be improving in their own kendo. This is at best irrelevant and at worst counter-productive.

It also slows up the rotation of the class if every other pair of kendoka is stopped because the senior of the two is busily describing something to the junior. This is very annoying for instructors who are always trying to make the most of the limited time available in the dojo.

The best instruction anyone can give in the dojo is by example of perfect technique IN PRACTICE, with the only thing coming out your mouth being an enormous kiai. It's not glamourous, but it serves everyone's interests best.

b

[taiwnezboi]

"If every time you go to do kiri-kaeshi you get a different person giving you advice, it can get confusing and frustrating."

This is a good point. I only tell them things that our instructor has told us during class before though.

"It also slows up the rotation of the class if every other pair of kendoka is stopped because the senior of the two is busily describing something to the junior."

We do a certain number of each type of strike.. for example each person may be told to do 6 men strikes.. I usually tell them if they have done something wrong after they have finished doing all of their strikes and the rest of the class hasn't, so it isn't slowing up the class.

"Maybe they are getting them to concentrate on something more fundamental."

Good point, I'll try to keep that in mind.

[Fai]

I agree with taiwnezboi about "Your teaching should be confined to providing nice targets for your juniors, unless your instructor asks you specifically to help out."

Ok if you notice a beginner who is doing something fundamentally wrong such as they are clubbing or holding the shinai or stance is incorrect then you should point it out.

I have had the personal experience of returning to my club after a long absent to practice without my bogu and have a beginner who has only played kendo for 2 or 3 times come up to me and try to teach me men.

I would not mind this at all if my sensei had instructed him to do this but I feel that this person (not naming name but I am sure you know who you are) was just out of order and just had no respect for the club or sensei.

[bob]

You are a direct reflection of your sensi. As a junior kendoist you should bite your toung and listen to your sempi he may not always be right and his Kendo might suck but out of respect to your sensi bite your toung.

Now on the other hand I have been in kendo just about 20 years and for thew first 12 or so rank did not mean a thing to me so as people would pass me on the rank level I could still lay the wood to them.

The best thing to do is shut up and train.

[David J]

Originally posted by Fai
I have had the personal experience of returning to my club after a long absent to practice without my bogu and have a beginner who has only played kendo for 2 or 3 times come up to me and try to teach me men.

I would not mind this at all if my sensei had instructed him to do this but I feel that this person (not naming name but I am sure you know who you are) was just out of order and just had no respect for the club or sensei.

Hey Fai.

I have no idea to whom you are referring here, not that it matters, but it sounds to me like an honest mistake. How were they supposed to know it was not your first week ever, given you were out of armour? In that case, surely they were just trying to be helpful? I think saying that this overly helpful person showed no respect is very harsh - even aside from the fact that in their second week they'd still be learning dojo etiquette anyway.

I think for beginners in all things there is a tendency to want to share what bits you have learnt - if you try to stamp that out you'll have a very stern dojo (and not many returning beginners I'd venture).

Maybe my perspective is skewed here. Maybe I will get to have my views adjusted as the years go on. But so far I have always been glad of advice/comments from people of any experience level - its up to me to take notice or not. Right now I cant imagine feeling any different about this even when I am a yudansha. I do see the thing for not entering into debate and holding up practice - good point. But if I get to 3rd dan and a pre-ikkyu kendoka can point out to me that (on that day), all my kote cuts are landing too high, then fine, thanks.

<rei>

Dave

[James]

Originally posted by David J
I think for beginners in all things there is a tendency to want to share what bits you have learnt ....


I think Ben has answered this:

Originally posted by Ben

Less experienced people tend to want to teach not because it is asked of them, but because they want to show their kohai how much they know. What ends up happening is that they tell the people below them what it is they know (or maybe only sense) they should be improving in their own kendo. This is at best irrelevant and at worst counter-productive.


I think this next statement shows a 'somewhat bizarre' lack of understanding of the dojo:


Originally posted by David J
Ah yes, but the tricky thing is - how are they going to improve unless someone points out their mistakes?

This isn't a 'tricky thing'. They have their sensei and sempai to adjust their kendo. You may be surprised to learn that most of your sempai are not in a state where they:

Originally posted by David J
believe they are doing cuts correctly, and in fact are not, they arent learning, just maintaining bad habits they may be unaware of.... [/B]

They, without exception, have a list of bad habits they 'are' aware of and are working on constantly with the help of their sensei and sempai.

I would think it self-evident that a sandan might be working on different aspects of her kendo than a mudansha, even if they are doing the same cut.
For example a higher grade might be working on their seme whereas a beginner might not realise this.
A senior might be trying to correct a shiai habit of blocking, by accepting a hit when they don't see a clear oji-waza.
Should the beginner then tells the senior not to leave themselves open (maybe the sensei had previously told the beginner that)?

Of course your sensei and sempai aren't prefect, but are you really the right one to correct them? Are you sure you even know what you are talking about?

As Ben suggests, I would examine your motives for even wanting to 'correct' your sempai.

Try this:
Say you notice something about your sempai's kote cut.
Before you open your mouth, think:
Can I do a better kote cut? Can I DEMONSTRATE what I mean rather than just say it?
If the answer is no, I would suggest the answer to your original question is no.

[Fai]

Junior In reply to bob: I am sempai to the person who was trying to teach me the men cut. I did not say anything as it was not my place as you have pointed out that I am new to junior kendo player (I have played kendo for 2 years).

I truly believe you should not try to teach others unless they see others making fundamental flaws (in this case teach is too strong of a word to use, more like point out) or unless the sensei ask you, subsequently that day I was given the responsibility to teach the beginners.

In reply to Dave: The "helpful" person should have kept himself to himself especially if they don't know the etiquette of the club. They are there to learn not teach.

Another point Dave, how do you know your sempai is doing something wrong? Is your kendo so good that you can spot it? For example when you first start kendo you should have been told to swing your shinai until you touch your bum. As you progress you will be told it is not necessary to swing so far back.

Helpful is one thing but a little too much is called arrogance or annoyance.

[etherknot]

I am agreeance with the majority of people here who seem to be:
1. Respect the seniors.
2. Help those with really obvious problems (I'd be back at square one if people hadn't kept yelling at me about my left foot).

But I'd also like to add one point:

When somebody does something good or fixes their problem give them a thumb up (or kote up if in bogu) or cheer them on. Let them know that they're making correct progress. It's just as helpful as pointing out mistakes.

[Atama]

I belive it is of upmost importance to show respect to your senior students even if you don't always agree with what they say..... if I have a question about something I have been told by my sempai or another senior student I quietly ask my sensei after class.

The problem for beginners is we read a few books and take a few classes and think we are samurai, I am a shodan and training for nedan but still very much a beginner and I accept constructive critism from both high and low grades.......but I did find it quite amusing when an ungraded student gave me a 10 minute talk on how i should tie my hakama.

[JSchmidt]

"Helpful is one thing but a little too much is called arrogance or annoyance."

Frank,You came along, looked like a beginner, he tried to help you...now just who is arrogant and annoying?
If anything, I think you owe David an apology for airing this crap in public.

Jakob

[mingshi]

I'm totally confused... Seem like the problematic term in the question is not "talking", but rather "Senpai"....?

So what is the definition of Senpai? The one that starts earlier than me? The one practices more often? The one who can beat me up with a higher level of skill? Or is it just people with a higher grade than myself? (Encountering the same problem in the "where to sit on Seiza" thread...)

Now I don't even bother talking to Kohai. I just wack the hell out of them. (I also just wack the hell out of my Senpai, if opportunity arrives...) My mouth is too busy to deal with Kiai.

[2muchryt]

a sensei told me that it goes like this:
children are one group. adults are another group. adults being the childrens sempai.
but in each group it goes by rank.
if you are the same rank, it goes by how long you have held that rank.
if you have held the rank the same amount of time (ie. you both became shodan at the same shodan shinsa or test) it then goes by age.

ability or how much you practice has nothing to do with it. he also said that if a kenshi of equal rank, but has been that rank longer than you have, even though he might be younger than you, offers you a higher position on the floor, you must not accept it.
i am curious to know what people think of that.

however another sensei at our dojo has a fellow alumni of IBC that he refers to as his kohai although his kohai has a 6 dan and that sensei has a 5 dan
?????????

[Nishi]

A good sempai should make the students below him feel important and encouraged, and never allow any reason for confusion or distress. In my dojo there is no time for disagreaments, from the word "rei" it is all about kendo and sweat and hard work. Sempai's job is too alliviate (sp?), the sensei of general dojo duties....at least thats the way it is in our dojo.