"He's late again!!!"

[kendokev]

heh, hope that title attracts ppl to have a look. well, i just finished reading Miyamoto Musashi a few weeks back and i thought, "what is with this guy turning up late?" and i was thinking, that's pretty bs cos there is a reason why people set up the time they want something to happen. in this case, his last battle with sasaki kojiro.

i mean, does he win his battles by throwing off his adversaries balance so that he could have the upper hand? doesn't he believe in his own abilities to avoid such tactics?

could ppl sortof help me out here? else i turn up to all my shiais late ;) but, since i'd get disqualified, i don't think i'll be pulling that one anytime soon. onagaishimasu!

[ben]

Hi Kev,
Musashi was not a swordsman who won with flawless technique and scrupulous observance of etiquette. He was successful because he was (by most accounts) big, strong, violent, ruthless and unscrupulous. Basically the baddest MF of his time. The 'being late' tactic was absolutely designed to piss Sasaki off. Nothing easier than beating someone who is angry. His ruthlessness was also demonstrated by the fact that he used a second blow on the fallen Sasaki to make sure that he had finished him off. Musashi was not content with just winning the fight, he had to obliterate his opponent. If the young Musashi did kendo, he probably would turn up late, be disqualified, then go and kill the judge who disqualified him.

By contemporary standards, Musashi was a pretty crappy human being IMHO.

b

[mingshi]

Forget if this is the Mifune movie or Yoshikawa novel...... But the story goes like this:

Musashi was late because he was checking out the Ganryu Island. Familiar himself with the landscape first, keep Saski Kojiro waiting and worried (not Musashi! About the duel!), and found a nice location so that he could fight with the sun behind him etc.

I hope it's not Sasaki Kojiro's extra-long sword got caught between some rocks on the island and made him lost... Who choose this place anyway? Can't they just fight in an open area?

Pulling out out Sun Tse's strategy, in order to win, you'll need:
Tan Xi =favorable climate
Di Li =geograhpical advantage
Ren He =Human conditions

Thought Musashi should have written "Watch and mobile phone are not necessary" down in his 5 rings book? :p

[Critical_Bill]

well if you're looking for slight advantages, having someone call you just before the duel starts and you have to talk to'em for a bit, and tell them the time... the other guy would be even more ticked off :D
invariably though, if you're fighting a dues (which both sides have a good notion will lead to one or two tombstones) the people who just swagger up, scoff at the other guy and tell them how his dragon style will defeat the other guys feeble techniques...invariably died unknown deaths :)

i think ben has him pegged pretty well, but in addition to that, he wasn't stupid, and no matter how much else is going on, everyone tries to stack the odds for self preservation in their favor :)

[wutian]

if im corect didnt he use an ore as a sword in that one? if so i think he could use a couple advantiges.

[kendokev]

he did carve his tachi from the oar, according to the book i read. not too sure what the advantages are. maybe one of them was so that sasaki kojiro, being the arrogant sob that he is, would be even more arrogant and look down on musashi... a big no no.

plus, i guess it'd save him from having to damage his metal sword... :)

PS : Great replies guys. thx :)

[Ares2907]

afaik the oar thing is a myth. Something Eiji Yoshikawa made up, taking creative license. He did use a smegging great chunk of wood to stave in Kojiro Sasaki's skull, but it could have come from anywhere.

[Shiro]

By contemporary standards, Musashi was a pretty crappy human being IMHO.

I disagree on that point. I don't say I know the story a 100% but why would a ruthless bastard bother to write a book like The Book of the Five
Rings?
So many things have been said about him that it's almost impossible to know how he really was....

I think he had an obsession for weak spots (I read somewhere he barely took baths because that was a moment where he really was vulnerable) and that he might have used the weak spots of his opponents a lot.
But I think that's a part of what being a great duelist is all about.
If you know your opponent always leaves his kote wide open, wouldn't you use that tidbit of information?

[Sanjuro]

That must mean Musashi was a pretty smelly bad mf from his lack of hygiene...maybe Kojiro was thrown off balance by Musashi's odor as well as his tardiness? :grin:

[Shiro]

Well, I'm sure glad his book doesn't come in odorama..... :)

Anyway, we could try not washing the week before a shiai..... ;)

[samurai999]

Well, in the matters of life and death, you have to use any advantage you can get. Whether it is getting under your opponents skin or by disgust. If your opponent is busy getting disgusted or pissed off, you know he/she isn't gonna be concentrating on the battle.

Tim

[Hongsermeier]

I will second the thought of using everything at your disposal to your own advantage. When I was trying for the North Cal goodwill team I had to fight against a Sensei. I was a 4kyu at the time. I was expecting to last a few seconds. While I was waiting I noticed the sun was coming in one window and hitting the floor where I would be fighting. During the whole match I did everything I could to keep the sun in my opponents eyes. He finally got one point with less than 5 seconds to go in the match. I lost, but I learned a lot during that one match. :cross_eye

[xvikingx]

I disagree on that point. I don't say I know the story a 100% but why would a ruthless bastard bother to write a book like The Book of the Five
Rings?

Ben didn't say he was feeble minded. Is it impossible for a ruthless bastard to write a book? Hitler wrote a book. His book (Musashi not Hitler) was written at the end of his life and was probably for the purpose of leaving something of himself behind in this world. The man had spent the majority of his life killing people. Romantize all you like but he was a killer and I am sure at the end he would have rather been remember for his book.

(just my opinion)

[Shiro]

Ben didn't say he was feeble minded. Is it impossible for a ruthless bastard to write a book? Hitler wrote a book. His book (Musashi not Hitler) was written at the end of his life and was probably for the purpose of leaving something of himself behind in this world. The man had spent the majority of his life killing people. Romantize all you like but he was a killer and I am sure at the end he would have rather been remember for his book.

(just my opinion)

I based my post on something I read a while ago. It said that after his fight with Sasaki he gave up duelling and started to ponder the truth behind the sword. Also, he wasn't only a warrior, he did calligraphy and ink painting and he emphasized the fact a samurai should know about other professions. That's why I think he isn't. Why would a bastard meditate the essence of the sword when he could just kill?
And imho, we should not forget the fact that the values of the time and place he lived in are totally different than our values. He may have killed all his opponents but don't forget he was risking his skin too. Remember samurai had an aproach of death that was totally different than ours.

On the other hand, so much has been said about him..... hell, maybe he really was a bastard :).

[xvikingx]

...after his fight with Sasaki he gave up duelling and started to ponder the truth behind the sword. Also, he wasn't only a warrior, he did calligraphy and ink painting and he emphasized the fact a samurai should know about other professions.

Gee he only had to kill sixty people (at least, according to legend) before he decided to persue a different career. :D There is a line in "Fight Club" that I liked. I believe it went something like, "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."

"...we should not forget the fact that the values of the time and place he lived in are totally different than our values."

You're right, it was a different time. It was finally a time of peace in a unified Japan. (*relatively) This put a lot of samurai out of a job. The class system made it rather hard for them to swallow their pride. So instead putting down their swords and getting a real job a lot of them set out for fame, became thugs, or what have you. It is in this time period where all this romanticizing of the sword comes from.
Musashi was not in a situation in which he had to fight, he chose to kill people. He was out for glory.

[Shiro]

Gee he only had to kill sixty people (at least, according to legend) before he decided to persue a different career. :D

Well, I don't know if he started all the fights.... :) Maybe he got a lot of challenges. Does anybody know about wether he started most of the fights or not?

[xvikingx]

Well, I don't know if he started all the fights.... :) Maybe he got a lot of challenges. Does anybody know about wether he started most of the fights or not?
Not much is actually known about him, so your guess is as good as anyones.

[Shiro]

Not much is actually known about him, so your guess is as good as anyones.

yeah.... the best thing to do would be to figure out how to travel trough time and go talk to the man himself ;)

here's a little link, for those intrested.....
http://www.samurai-archives.com/musashi.html

[hamish]

The whole arriving late/oar bokuto is a myth, as is the saya in the surf and most of the rest of the details of the Ganryu-jima duel. From the remaining reliable accounts he turned up on time for a properly adjudicated duel, his only one with a swordsman of some reputation, as opposed to the lower level rabble he'd dealt with previously.

Bear in mind that many other well known swordsmen of the time had fought and won more than 100 duels, all documented and against ranked, experienced swordsmen.

The story of Musashi is a good one, but for the most part its just that, a good yarn.

Hamish

[nox]

actually from what i read, he had several duels against some well-known samurai families
but one oddity is he didn't generally do the well-publicized duels that many others did, he tended to like to pick remote dueling grounds with less spectators
the thing about that particular duel wasn't that it was his only duel against aman of some skill, it was that it was the only one he had that garnered a large spectator crowd
at least from what i read, much of which is somewhat suspect, but you get the idea

also, i've read that the notion that "other samurai fought hundreds of duels" is a fantasy (as is how well recorded such things were)
outside of some larger schools who would often arrange matchs and then record them, as far as your random duels of skill and honor, the most duel-happy samurai rarely reached 30-40 in his lifetime if even that high

as for it being a relatively peaceful time
wasn't Musashi alive pre-tokugawa-just about the beginning of the tokugawa era???
iirc, while the tokugawa shogunate brought prolly more peace then Japan had seen in a long time, its not like they ever really eliminated duels and other acts of random violence
they pretty much controlled the lil spiffles between the various lords, but duels and such were still considered fairly commonplace
musashi in that respect was just another one of the crowd y'know??
a violent crowd..sure...but crowd nonetheless....

[IZA]

ben
Registered User Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 429

Hi Kev,
Musashi was not a swordsman who won with flawless technique and scrupulous observance of etiquette. He was successful because he was (by most accounts) big, strong, violent, ruthless and unscrupulous. Basically the baddest MF of his time. The 'being late' tactic was absolutely designed to piss Sasaki off. Nothing easier than beating someone who is angry. His ruthlessness was also demonstrated by the fact that he used a second blow on the fallen Sasaki to make sure that he had finished him off. Musashi was not content with just winning the fight, he had to obliterate his opponent. If the young Musashi did kendo, he probably would turn up late, be disqualified, then go and kill the judge who disqualified him.

By contemporary standards, Musashi was a pretty crappy human being IMHO.

b
__________________
"It's guys like you that make the world stupid." William Honda


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Thats very nice Ben! your comment is very good. a good reflection of your mind
it just happened to be am a trainee of Miyamoto Musashi's Hyoho Niten Ichiryu.

[lwegerich]

(...) just happened to be am a trainee of Miyamoto Musashi's Hyoho Niten Ichiryu.

That's great. Tell us more about that "school". What's special about it? Is the heritage documented? How do you train?

[IZA]

Did i said that its special? Im going to make it clear i said nothing about special. as far as im concern am not goin to say something about kenjutsu or kendo,this would easily start an argument. no comment in regard to thats. but i think we all are very aware that each one us has a certain favoritism, but things we say should be at least be respectful. I think we should act mature. Rei is very important to anybody trained in budo or bujutsu.

and please dont believe too much about movies or series portraying Miyamoto Musashi.

Please visit

www.hyoho.com

dozo :)

[KhawMengLee]

http://www.buyubooks.com/product_details.cfm?id=10511

should be a good musashi read.

[Kingofmyrrh]

People seem to want to base their entire knowledge off yoshikawa. It might be worth remembering that this was essentially a popular serialised novel which was targeted on the confused feelings of pre-war Japanese (although mostly men) and tried to sympathise with their problems through parallels with yoshikawa`s version of musashi`s life. There are any number of publications on `the real musashi` here and it seems that most of them agree that at least in his youth he was pretty much a thug. I don`t care what you say, civilised people just don`t go around killing people. Duels to the death between `serious` swordsmen were not as common as everybody seemed to think. Feel free to try and persuade me with views about `the bushi way of life` and `different moral standards`, but not if you`ve gained your own information from random internet sites and too many dodgy movies. If you decide to anyway, I can only hope that Yowai will clean up for me.

[IsahoNaginata]

people do not seem to entirely understand certain things. bushido was not a philosophy that existed till the Tokugawa era and certain concepts of honorable conduct were not very popular, even amongst samurai, at the time. Musashi was a man who was fighting duels in which the inferior warrior was going to die. So he would come up with tactics that would guarantee his own survival and the death of his opponent.

It is the same basic philosophy behind bokutodo; it is a sword made out of wood therefore it can be used as both a sword and a club. If you only use it as a sword because that is what you are "supposed to do" you will never be as skilled with the weapon as you would be if you also knew the ideal ways to use it as a club.

In a time where survival matters upon victory you do what you do to survive. If that means pulling tricks such as showing up late to a duel or ignoring the brags and boats of your opponent (bragging and boasting was fairly common in many samurai duels) to piss him off and throw him off his guard then so be it. Hell, some people probably even showed up to their duels pretending to be drunk! I really doubt that tactics like these were at all unique to Miyamoto Musashi.