joint cracking

[wutian]

i just started massive strenght training, and have found that my sholders and elbows crack when lifting. anyone else have this problem and if so what did you do to remidy it.

[kendokamax]

massive streng training?

why so?

i was wondering what is a good work out for kendo?

[gill]

Wutian,

I think you would be much better served to do lots of reps with light weights - or suburi with a suburi bokken / 2 shinai. If you build too much upper body strength you are likely to hinder rather than help your kendo!

As for elbows and shoulders cracking - no, but my feet/ankles do - and I have never been able to get rid of it - infact they hurt if they don't - but I imagine it's not very good for them.

:D Gill

[Confound]

To do good kendou, you don't really need too much strength. The goal is not to knock your opponents unconscious. I would argue that speed, endurance and cleanliness of waza are far more important.

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
To do good kendou, you don't really need too much strength. The goal is not to knock your opponents unconscious. I would argue that speed, endurance and cleanliness of waza are far more important.

c
Yes, but strength increases speed and endurance. Weight training can help any athlete. Also for shiai you need a certain amount of strength, otherwise you'll lose a lot of points to jogai. Most of us outside of Japan only get to go to the dojo 2 or 3 times a week. A trip to the gym on the other days can work wonders.

[wutian]

confound if you say the size of my arms youd know why im strenght training hehe i mostly work my legs, back and abs though heard that helps with endurance and balance.

[ben]

I'd agree with you Neil in respect to higher level training, where the kendoka already has a strong base of technique. In that case strength training can be a great help. However I would caution against newer kendoka placing too much faith in big muscles as it can compound some of the common problems that beginners face - including not being able to activate a technique from a relaxed state through an explosive state back to a relaxed state.

Strength only increases speed if it can be correctly applied.

b

[kendokamax]

ah thats pretty good

I should start working out tooo

[gill]

Neil,

I agree totally that a trip or two to the gym is a good thing - but only if you do the right type of training. Wutian stated that he was doing 'massive weight training' This may just be a figure of speech, but if it is heavy weights it will be detramental to kendo - as it is not working towards the same goal. There is no requirement in kendo to lift something extremely heavy, and it's only benefit is intimidation!

I think it's much better to work on fitness, and build muscle strength with lighter weights ie so you still have to work - but can do 30-40 reps.

Gill

[wutian]

clarification time massive bad word intensive more like it. only doing bulk with squat

[Ares2907]

Gill, where are you getting your info? It's incorrect.
There have been a few posts about this, but I'll break it down again . . .

Firstly there are several types of fitness and they can be broadly broken down into two categories: aerobic and anaerobic.
You appear to be advocating aerobic in place of anaerobic, however kendo requires a decent level of fitness in both.

Secondly to say that heavy weight training is detrimental to kendo absolutely incorrect. I cringe every time I see/hear someone say it. The root of this is promotion of hypertrophy (growth) of muscle fibres, again two types - fast twitch and slow twitch. If you are going to supplement your kendo training with weights, it's better to go heavy than light. A google on power lifting techniques should reveal some decent routines for those interested.
Heavy lifting promotes fast twitch muscle fibre which is good for movement that is ballistic in nature, such as sprinting and kendo.
Lower weight with larger reps will promote growth of slow-twitch muscle fibre which is good for running marathons or triathlons, but bad for kendo.
A lot of people fear that if they do weights, they will get hyoooge. This is again incorrect. It takes a lot of work and a lot of food to get big (and in many cases a lot of drugs). You can gain a hell of a lot of functional strength before you will see increase in muscle mass and even then (unless you are committed to getting big), the size increase won't be massive.
Ben was right in saying that increase in strength won't necessarily make you faster unless you can relax enough to use it, however comparing two persons of similar ability, the one with more fast-twitch muscle fibre will be faster. In this regard, strength training definitely has a place for the kendoka who is serious about his/her martial art.
I could go on and on, but if you're interested about this stuff you might try the following:
www.stumptuous.com/weights.html (great site for anyone, esp women)

http://www.trygve.com/mfw_faq.html

check out
misc.fitness.weights on usenet (there are a lot of off topic posts, but the ppl there know their shit. As always - read the FAQ b4 posting - see second link)

of course, if you do want to get hyooge, check out

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/

Hope that clears things up a bit.

[Ares2907]

Oh, and re the cracking joints thing, it's nothing too much to worry about.
go to www.google.com, click on groups, then misc, fitness then weights. Click the radio button for 'search only in misc.fitness.weights', then enter 'cracking joints' in the search field. Should be more than you need.

Here's one possible explanation:
Cracking joints is often due to too much acid in your diet. If you
drink tea, reduce intake. Any acidic drinks should be reduced.

One other thing,
focus on training your legs more than arms/upper body. Seriously.
Squats, deadlifts, calf raises.

[wutian]

thank you for the imput will look in to that ares

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by ben
However I would caution against newer kendoka placing too much faith in big muscles as it can compound some of the common problems that beginners face - including not being able to activate a technique from a relaxed state through an explosive state back to a relaxed state.

Absolutely. However, even for beginners a trip to the gym is good - just hit the cardio machines, not the weights. If you're out of shape, that kendo class twice a week is a good start but some stair time will get you there faster. Then when it's time to wear bogu you can worry about your technique and not whether you're going to puke in your men.

[gill]

Ares,

Thanks for the info - will look into it, as it is quite different to what I have been told (and a hell of a lot more in depth!)

Cheers

[Gorget-the-Frog]

I recall reading about a study conducted among Olympic athletes a few years ago. It revealed that those with the some of the highest potential for explosive movement were in-fact weight-lifters. (I'll try to dig it up)

The idea that strength training decreases your speed, or dulls reflexes is a myth. Look at the legs of your typical sprinter.

[stinkyKote]

I don't think weight training can be terrible for your kendo.. I'm a pretty small guy, and I get pushed around a lot during keiko-- my sensei tells my I should try and put on a little more mass, lifting heavy weights and eating more/better is really the only way I can accomplish this, unless I want to just not work out and put on fat-

[Ares2907]

There are three basic things that you need to do if you want to put on lean body mass

1. Lift heavy stuff and then put if down again - repeat
2. Eat stuff (high protein. approx 1.5 grams per pound of body weight per day if you want serious growth)
3. Sleep - you grow the most whilst sleeping.

Each of these is as important as the other and skipping one will detrimentally affect your growth.

[wutian]

1. Lift heavy stuff and then put if down again - repeat
-Ares2907
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
im not sure i get it could you elaborate lol

[Ares2907]

I forgot to add 'drink water'
--
our two - TWO main weapons are fear and surprise
(and an undying loyalty to the pope)

Okay our Three main weapons . . .
(no one expects the Spanish Inquisition)

[JSchmidt]

"Oh no!..The Comfy chair!!!!"

[saki_wooah]

hmm weight lifting is a good idea if you just can't do 50 suburi in a row. When practicing kendo, the importance is more endurance than a lot of muscles for nothing (I mean, it's good to have some, but not too much if you're a beginner, because you'll be too tense on your grip). However, being strong enough to push your opponent is a good thing. I'm 14 years old and not heavily built (and not wanting to) so at the beginning I had a hard time doing suburi, especially hiya suburi. Endurance helped me a lot, as well as respiration. I think I'm stronger than when I started, but I haven't done weight lifting. Suburi have done all the work there. But if you'd like to go faster, go for it, but don't do too much; keep your energy for kendo ;)
Hmmm returning to our subject, if you're practicing in a gym, you should ask an instructor about it (i don't know anything about it).

[Raiza]

For Stinky,

Check to see *how* you're standing when you're being pushed...a good stance (one leg forward and flexed, hips straight, butt tucked in, hara/lower abdominal region tightened) goes a long way in overcoming being a little light in the weight department.

Personally, I hate pushing in shiai (not tsubazeriai, but actual pushing) and it's the number one reason why I want to get to shodan as fast as I can, as pushing became the predominant 'waza' in the kyu section of the first (and only) tournament I've attended. Although what I usually do is hold my ground and ease or bounce off with a hiki-waza, I can push right back and if I'm really offended, the tai-atari comes out. I feel pushing gets in the way of real skill and looks more like a shoving match during shiai, yuck. I used to do it way back when I started jikeiko, but I'm glad I got rid of it. I just roll my eyes when people suggest that I push and throw my ample weight around more...

Raiza

[Ares2907]

saki-wooah, weight lifting is a good idea period. It has nothing to do with being able to push people around or endurance for that matter - read my earlier post again. It *is* good for explosive speed and anaerobic fitness (ie what you want when doing kakari-geiko and often several minutes into encho).
Cycling/running etc is also good (in moderation) though I work on my aerobic fitness about one-third as much as my anaerobic.

As for pushing in shiai, that's something that doesn't require a great deal of strength either (when done properly). I've seen plenty of diminutive japanese grannies on train station platforms bounce people away from them as they serenely make their way to the train door. People using upper body strength to push are asking to be knocked over (not too hard, get their timing, then side-step, deft shove (from the hips of course)).

[2muchryt]

is praticing kendo 3 times a week and weight traning
3 times a week good for your kendo?
what about just praticing kendo a couple times a day
6 days a week?

which one is better? assuming you had the option?

will you not develop all the explosive muscles you
need in kendo by doing more kendo?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by 2muchryt
will you not develop all the explosive muscles you
need in kendo by doing more kendo?
Most sports utilise weight training and other cross-training. Look at the size of modern sprinters legs, for instance - they don't get that way from just running. If you're looking for the most efficient way to gain strength and speed, weights is it AFAIK.

OTOH I've been thrashed by an 80 year old so skill can overcome strength and speed. Perhaps there's an argument to be made for spending your time getting better at kendo.

But definitely if you only can get to the dojo a couple times a week then cross-training can help you.

[Haowen]

What kind of weight training regime are you guys on? Just to get an idea. Any plyometrics?

Thanks!

[ben]

IMHO in a perfect world, all I would do to get better at kendo would be more kendo (say 5 or 6 times a week).

Weights are great, but as my learned friend Ares has pointed out, you need to know HOW to train correctly. It's not rocket science (look around you in the gym) but it does take at least some research in order to avoid training the wrong muscles types/wrong muscle groups/wrong energy system/reducing muscle length.
plyometrics = :)
Weights + yoga = :) :)
weights + yoga + ballet = :) :) :) (This is what I would do if I was a Gov't funded elite athlete not a young father trying to eke out a living in a deregulated economy).

To wrap up my early morning blurt: I'm kinda fond of the idea of senbonsuburi (1000 swings) as a training method. Of course in current coaching circles such repetitious wear of your rotator cuffs is totally taboo, but then, most doctors would tell you to stop being hit on the head a hundred times a week as well. It would also seem to be training your aerobic (endurance) rather than your anaerobic (power) system. However it is great for training mental perseverance (zanshin) and, surprisingly in some ways, technique. The last 50 or maybe even just the last 10 swings, if done carefully, are close to perfect technique because there is no strength left in your arms at all. It's a strange out-of-body experience that gives you an insight into what is possible in kendo.

Thank you for staying awake.

b