Gyaku dou

[Confound]

Having never witnessed gyaku-dou, though I'm sure it goes on in pratice, just never in a place or time that's visible to me, I'd like to hear from some who use it. What is the correct zansshin for gyaku-dou? Is there a hiki-gyaku dou (one would assume, but we all know what assume does)? Can gyaku-dou be combined with kote, for kote-gyaku-dou?

c

ps - mingshi, go to town. I am looking forward to reading what you have to say.

[kendokamax]

from what I have seen and been told , when doing the zanshin for hiki gyakudo- you shouldnt show your back to your oponnent.

as to stay in "contact" .

I'd like to know more about it... however I hate do-....

[AlexM]

I'm no expert at gyaku-do but here's what I know from practice and from talking with my sensei.

1) Gyaku-do is usually a hiki-waza (or at least when it's scored it should be).

2) There's such a thing as kaeshi-gyaku-do (useful against jodan). Block up come down on gyaku do. Zanshin goes backwards.

3) The thing about zanshin on gyaku do is that the foot work has to be perfect. You have to hit down fast (diagonally) and go backwards faster (at least that's how I do it). You're feet should be ummm. . . "alive". Lets just say that if your going backwards looks the least bit awkward they'll be no ippon. Our sensei puts the emphasis on good footwork when we practice it. Now that I think of it's more like you're walking backwards (very quickly). Hopefully your opponent will be so stunned that they won't follow you and thus you get the ippon (if the judges are in the mood). As to where the shinai should be after the hit, I'm not sure. You really have to see it done right to understand. It'll hopefully feel right when you get it.

4) Often times in tournaments now you'll see people get gyaku-do from tsubazeriai but instead of going backwards without turning their back to their opponents they "swish" through the opponents do (pretty much horizontally) and turn around, with his or her back to the opponent. It's a spectacular move but it is totally useless because once you turn your back to the opponent there's no zanshin (many shinpan don't understand this for some reason and give the point . . . you'd be surprised how many high-ranking kendoka can be totally in the dark in this regard. . . that's a rant waiting to happen).

5) There is a gyaku-do where you go in and maybe feint men (opponent blocks his right side thus opening his left do) and then stop in front of him and "swish" the shinai across the do. It's very spectacular (the sound it makes is lovely) but I've never seen it actually scored. It is a hell of a lot of fun to try though . . . great outlet for stress. Youn wind up going somewhat sideways.

Moral of the story: Gyaku-do is tough to pull off but just feels so good when you do.

[kendokamax]

?
needs to be diagonal??

[saki_wooah]

diagonal?
?_?

and also, when doing hiki-gyaku do you need to keep your left hand in chudan no kamae position (I always forget to do that) because if you miss and your opponent wants to counter-attack, you must be ready
well, from what I heard

[kendokamax]

hum must run very fast ?

[alexpollijr]

If it's hard to score with usual hiki waza, with gyaku do it's almost impossible. I've seen people do very beautifull cuts on hiki-gyaku-do (the most common form) and no points were given. Never. It's another subjective shimpam issue I think.

i've seen forward gyaku do once and it was a point. very very clear cut though with the opponent's arms high.

for myself, never got a point with it

[saki_wooah]

the zanshin is hard to get!

[taiwnezboi]

I heard it doesn't really get points because in ancient times the daisho would be on the left side.. therefore gyaku-do would hit the wakizashi and sheath of the katana.. not killing the opponent

[stinkyKote]

food for thought:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/adrian.tsang/gyakuDo.wmv

it's a video of one of our local junior tournaments of a little girl (I think she's 11?) getting a gyaku do on a guy twice her size- this was the final match for her division-

there are a few people around here that have a pretty decent gyaku do, if I have time I'll see if I can dig up some more of them-

[Neil Gendzwill]

Kamata took out Raymond at nationals with two gyaku-doh. He hits using his whole body to power the attack (with a big back movement). Very strong, very clear, and moving sideways away from the opponent. There wasn't any doubt about it. So we know it can be effective against nito :)

[gill]

Originally posted by AlexM
I'm no expert at gyaku-do but here's what I know from practice and from talking with my sensei.

1) Gyaku-do is usually a hiki-waza (or at least when it's scored it should be).



Whats wrong with gyaku-do going forwards? I have scored it several times?

Gill

[AlexM]

Originally posted by gill


Whats wrong with gyaku-do going forwards? I have scored it several times?

Gill

Ummmm, I don't know what to say. You caught me. I have no idea about what I'm talking about (it's a shock, I know). I was making up everything I said in my last post.

Seriously, did you do it like a "normal" dou but from the other side? As simple as that. Or did you use some secret technique I've never heard of?

If you did it like a "reverse" normal dou hats off to you. I always thought that kind of dou wasn't valid (or just really difficult because the persons left arm is lower and therefore covering more of the dou). Maybe someone who isn't me could fill us in on this (i.e. someone who's read the rule book)

Anyway, the only times I've seen gyaku-dou scored is as a hiki-waza (that's how I got it).

[KATSUJIN]

i have done gyaku-do a few times so far....but not in shiai...the situation never presented itself so far....well from wat my sesei taught me abt gyaku-do.....actually two senseis taught me gyaku-do but both were different....

one way was to cut the gyaku-do and move to ur right forward( the right of the attacker)...the zanshin will be to move into chudan after cutting....

wat the other sensei taught me was to slide my right leg forward and raise my hands slightly to make it look like i am going for the men and when the receiver tries to block the cut, i cut the exposed gyaku-do and move back with my left leg moving first.....but for the zanshin....when i begin moving back...i have to move back into chudan.....to make sure that my opponent does not come in....

[kendokamax]

ya AexM, there is nothing wrong with scoring on gyaku do- when going foward.

Only reason it is not given too many times is that when people do it. looks weird more than half the time....

remeber Gombe's kama ?...how the hell could you try to beat that guy if gyaku do- going foward would not be valid.

katsujin Thansk for the nice advice
I never thought of going back on chudan after was because to kill any possible attack from the opponent.. kills the opponent kensen? it makes a lot more sense to me now, why we were told to do that.

[KATSUJIN]

well....i just felt like telling it...although my do is no where desirable...

[gill]

Originally posted by AlexM


Seriously, did you do it like a "normal" dou but from the other side? As simple as that.


Yup!

The trick is to make the opening (make them think you're going for men) - otherwise you can leave your opponents elbow very black and blue. Then you have to get the hell out of there.

G :D

[AlexM]

Wow, me much impressed.

Question: Isn't tough to get the foot work down for that kind of gyaku-dou? On the "normal" dou the right leg (that leads) can easily avoid contact with the opponent (taking a step to the outside helps). On the gyaku-dou you describe, doesn't your right leg collide into the opponent because you're basically going in the other direction? Or do you do it by stepping with the left leg? Or do you do your dou by passing across the same side you hit on? I'm not sure I'm describing this properly.

[taiwnezboi]

AlexM: I believe when doing gyaku-do going forwards, you hit the opponent's left do and stomp with your left foot (it kind of goes to the side so that the left and right feet are now in a line).. then after the hit you step with your right foot so that you make a little zigzag-like motion and end up behind your opponent. Hope that was a clear enough description.

[KATSUJIN]

actually...from wat i know from one my senseis, the right foot still performs the fumi-komi ashi when doing gyaku-do forward...for the other type where i said i have to move back after cutting the gyaku-do, there is no fumi-komi or stamping.....it is just silent footstep...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by KATSUJIN
actually...from wat i know from one my senseis, the right foot still performs the fumi-komi ashi when doing gyaku-do forward...for the other type where i said i have to move back after cutting the gyaku-do, there is no fumi-komi or stamping.....it is just silent footstep...
Actually the classic gyaku-doh is no movement at all, just set your feet wide and smack the hell out of the aite. It's a very committed technique.

[Nishi]

I agree with Gill, create a good opening, pass the tip of your shinai under your opponents shinai and raise it high (imitate a men cut) and then cut gyaku-do. For this cut i usually step wide left after the cut and then back sharp right again, finishing where i started (kind of counter clockwise half circle)..this is where i hold both kiai and zanshin (usually ready to tsuki if my opponent so much as blinks...lol!!)

[Kenshi]

I was watching Gill when she got a gyaku-do point whilst going forward (and through) ... that was the this years Europeans (or was it last?). Anyway, it was quite spectacular! I think the shimpan were shocked too ... but their flags were up! It was just a normal do-uchi, except on the other side.

Seriously though, I think its something that some shimpan will give you and others not (despite a good strike with all the necessary components). There are more of the latter than the former. Some sensei dont mind it, others glare at you when you even mention it....

[Confound]

Can someone give a more concise explanation of the footwork and zansshin involved in a gyaku-dou strike? (Specifically gill, Mingshi, Mr. McCall, or someone who uses the technique frequently, correctly and successfully?)

c

[KATSUJIN]

slide right foot forward with hands raising to force opponent to block men and at the last second, redirect shinai into gyaku-do trajectory and move back with left foot, fast....after cutting do and pulling out the shinai....move back into chudan....this is wat i was taught....

[Hongsermeier]

Originally posted by taiwnezboi
I heard it doesn't really get points because in ancient times the daisho would be on the left side.. therefore gyaku-do would hit the wakizashi and sheath of the katana.. not killing the opponent

That is what makes it so hard to get the point. You have to strike it very hard and follow through. No bouncing like striking the men.

[Ares2907]

I have seen it scored (very effectively) with stationary zanshin. It was a very dynamic cut that left no one in any doubt as to whether or not it was a point. It this case, fumikomi came before the strike, feet wide apart. The zanshin consisted basically of sliding the right foot back toward the left.
I think I prefer this style of gyaku do to any other (not that other variations are less/more valid)

[mingshi]

Er, I thought you are asking for "scoring" a Gyakudou, so I couldn't put any comments because I haven't got any (yet)... But whatever... Spending a few sessions of Jikeiko doing 80% Dou cuts, here's what I've learn:

Firstly and most importantly, and this is what every cut of yours should also be:
Cut in the timing of one
Cut from your hips

Footwork is the same (still right foot stamping). Do it like a Men cut and step INTO THE OPPONENT first before going pass them. You should be in control of his/her centre before running off.

For Dou cuts, you left hand should still stay in front of your centre line. Keep it centre until the last minute. If you go sideways, it'll be very noticable from your opponent's point of view. Left hand should also raise high enough (above your eyes) to fool your opponent that you're going for their Men, hence creating an opening for you. Try plenty of Dou-kirikaeshi, and you'll see the importance of keeping the left hand centre.

Distance is crucial --too close you'll be cutting with the lower 2/3 of your shinai, while too far you'll just miss and end up doing a baseball bat swing (and terribly opening yourself !!).

Aim lower. Especially important for dealing with people of your same height or shorter. Cutting from hips, so you'll never end up having left hand above right. Move your left hand and do Tenouchi like punching into your opponent's Zekken.

A few options for Zanshin. The key is to stay on your line of attack, take control of your opponent. Basically you can just move your shinai tip back to chudan (or anywhere around where you hit), but keep it in your centre. Wherther going forward, backward, or stay on the spot, that should be enough.

Have been taught from a Senpai that, you can take off your left hand after your strike (and make a little right wrist turn)...

Gyakudou is a little bit more difficult to hit because your opponent's left elbow is always lower than his/her right. However, if you can deceive them into blocking (or if you face some blokcers), Gyakudo is just too opened for you to hit, because people always block horizontally, making their elbows levelled). Saw my Senpai scored a Gyaku-dou against a Nito :D

One of the sequence of cuts that include Gyakudou is:
Hiki-gyakudou, Kote-Men

Dou-kirikaeshi is also a practice for Suriage-dou cuts. If you are fast/strong enough you'll manage to get Suriage-sayu-dou (Sayu is left and right).

That's all I can recall at this moment......

[AlexM]

Originally posted by mingshi
Have been taught from a Senpai that, you can take off your left hand after your strike (and make a little right wrist turn)...


Since we're on the subject of dou, I was told that you can move your hands much closer together along the tsuka in order to simplify the dou motion of going through (I think you can even hit dou with your hands closer together). At the end of the hit my senpai's hands were often times "stuck together". Thus, you won't have to let go of the shinai (with the left hand obviously).

Dou-kirikaeshi is also a practice for Suriage-dou cuts. If you are fast/strong enough you'll manage to get Suriage-sayu-dou (Sayu is left and right).
[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by suriage-dou? (men-suriage-dou, kote suriage-dou, dou-suriage-dou) Please describe, I have difficulty picturing it. Someone from my club once tried to get both dou's at once in a tournament (the first hit is just about stationnary, whereas the second is more like hiki-dou. . . i.e. go backwards). It's spectacular but impractical and unnecessary. It's what my sensei calls "le kendo acrobatique" (that's "acrobatic kendo"). He pleads with us not to do it in tournaments, with guests or when visiting. . . and then goes on to be visibly pleased when we attempt it, often laughing at our gall (or is that Gaul?). I think he tolerates our stupidity rather well (though some other people don't. . .)

[mingshi]

AlexM:
That Suriage-dou from Dou-kirikaeshi is ANY Suriage-dou. You just "brush" your opponent's sword away with the upward motion and cut them back at the same time.

I have seen +participated in very minimal Taikai, so I can't comment on the usefulness of these things. I can only say things from practice within the walls of a dojo. In terms of practical-ness... I would say it's really practical to teach your opponent to be aware of their Dou (both sides) and also their slow timing of cut. Long time ago my Sensei always managed to do Sayu-dou on me, as I didn't cut in one motion. So if you take a lot of Dou cuts, you know what's wrong with you :p

[gill]

Originally posted by Confound
Can someone give a more concise explanation of the footwork and zansshin involved in a gyaku-dou strike? (Specifically gill, Mingshi, Mr. McCall, or someone who uses the technique frequently, correctly and successfully?)

c

I cut Gyuaku Do exactly the same as I would cut Do in the 'conventional' manner, opening, footwork and zanshin are all the same, the only difference is that you cut and pass on the opposite side.

When I cut Do, I make an opening by attacking Men, and cut moving directly down the middle, only after the cut, do I move off the centre line, and then I get the hell out of there! (although the odd Do tai-atari has also been known - don't think it would score through, but it shocks the hell out of your opponent!) With Gyaku do you also have the added complication of getting your shinai round their body - as you can't leave it behind you - if your maai is correct this is relatively easy.

Best thing to do is try it, you'll get hit a lot in the beginning, but eventually things start to fall into place.

Enjoy!!!

Gill :D

[Kenshi]

Hey Confound,

I've smacked millions of the buggers in and i've had nothing but the odd flag and some twitches during shiai. During jigeiko, however, I find it easier to cut than men - mainly because people are not used to recieving it. All my kendo pals are wary of my penchant for this strike now... so its gotten harded to do to them.

This has led me to stop doing it so much in shiai, except as a shock tactic (when things are not going according to plan) or panic (when I am 1 point down with 20 seconds to go).

I don't (cant!) do it Gill-style but, rather, I tend to omote harai the opponents shinai and - as they raise there hands - smack the bad baby in and fly out diagonally-left-back. No fumikomishi ashi. Remember and kiai and shake your head bruce-lee stlye for full "i've just chopped you in two" effect.

I was hit a *beautiful* GD last sunday ... it was men nuki GD ... really. The guy smashed it so hard he was facing away from me (i.e. full 180 degree rotation). Its not kendo-kendo (if you know what I mean), but the timing and the strike were great. I enjoyed it!!

In hindsight I should have jumped on his back....

[Steve]

In September of this year, we had a Kendo Seminar held here in Halifax by Team Canada Members Matthew Raymond and Eddie Yamashita (5th and 4th Dan respectively). One of the topics that Raymond Sensei covered was Gyaku Do. Basically, you strike it as yuo would a normal do. You can, however, move forward on your left or right foot. The important point is to make sure you draw your shiai across the do, CUTTING the opponent. This is usually the determining factor on whether or not He would award a point during judging. Zanshin and opportunity or the other keys judges look for.