Pushing during shiai

[Raiza]

This is my pet-peeve when it comes to shiai. I hate gratuitous pushing, not because I get pushed around (which I certainly do not) but I feel it gets in the way of technique.

Your thoughts?

[Tato]

Hi

Can't answer, I'm to green to have aquired regular shiai habits.

By pushing you mean tayatari?, I've been teached that this is not pushing, but a technique in itself, useful against people who're not concentrated ("surprise!" "space" "Meeennn") and against smaller oponents.

But also that unjustified pushing can be hansoku.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, as said I'm starting to learn

Rei

[saki_wooah]

I cant really push where i practice (there are a lot of big huge university guys)... Im too weak... (-_-)

[Ares2907]

Unfortunately this is a part of kendo, it's valid and some people do this in preference to what I consider a cleaner style of kendo. Get used to it, come to grips with it, learn to counter it because some people are very very good at it.
It would have to be very very extreme for a warning to be given in shiai, so the better you can deal with it, the more able you are to do get on with your own kendo.
I tend to find that these type of players over-commit themselves to tsuba-zeriai. An effective method is just to move your body away from where they intend to do taiatari. Often you will leave them off-balance and open to a counter technique.

[Raiza]

Tato:
Yes, pushing and tai-atari (literally "body hit") are two different things. I believe what you're learning is tai-atari (tayatari as you've spelled it), and we sometimes practise it during kihon here. I save that little monster for special occasions...

Ares:
Got no problem countering pushing, and if you saw me in action you would know why. I just can't wait to get to the level where it no longer dominates the match. As for not liking it I don't like paying taxes, but I have to deal with them anyway. :rolleyes:

Saki:
For starters, you might want to stop using me as the starting model of someone to push against! That nice lady you talk to at the start of class might be willing to help you, as she's very cool and is also about your weight. I've been practising with her and she knows how to lower the center of gravity and position herself properly and she does a nice job, IMHO. Then you can work your way up to the bigger people. :)

Raiza

[alexpollijr]

Pushing really pisses me off.

Worst still, pushing rules shodan/nidan matches most of the time. There's this guy here who has this horrible kendo which is all pushing-based. he hits you only with hiki waza or worst, 'standing-still' waza, and telling him that this doesn't count as point is worthless. Even worst, he hits anywhere, say, arms, shoulders, hands.

So I have to deal with this problem every training day. Eventually I saw that Ares was right, the key is just to step out of the way or shift body position to evade the frontal shock.

[Will]

I once saw a North South (California) tournament where the guy who got first place in kyu won by pushing his last 4 or 5? guys out...People in the crowd were screaming "This is kendo, not sumo!"

[KhawMengLee]

I don't like the whole hansoku ruling as well about pushing someone out. But it is part and parcel with kendo. Funny this being brought out because at a practice shiai the other day I managed to get my opponent(a shidan) up on the edge but I didn't realize and backed off. My sensei told me all it took was a nudge for (hansoku)and I should have capitalized on it.

It teaches one to be aware of one's environment(the fighting area) so as not to be caught close to the edges.

Also to be aware of techniques which we can use to counter this(which is easier said than done at my level[kyu]). But if an opponent likes to push then don't let them get that opportunity.eg. counter with nuki or suriage waza.

One of my sempai told us that if an opponent likes to push or throw his weight in a fight, as he comes in, roll your body(90degrees) as he makes contact. As he passes, you will be facing his side. Then just push and it should send him sprawling or at least set him unbalanced for your counterattack.

Pushing sucks but notice how you don't see it being used all the time to win at the AJKC with better skilled exponents.(then again at the prelims at the 49th AJKC I saw one guy getting pushed out).


PEACE
MENG

[stinkyKote]

what's a shidan?

[hamish]

Meng, you're probably thinking of Eiga Naoki, who was knocked out (literally) in the 1st round of the All Japan Kendo Champs by jogai twice last year. I forget who did it, but he came up against the larger Takahashi in the next round, who pushed back a bit harder than Eiga did in the course of beating him.

Do they call it a win by oshidashi :)

Hamish

[KhawMengLee]

stinky,
oops...sorry, I meant yondan(shidan).

Hamish,
Yar, it was so sad. I felt real sorry for that guy. When he got pushed out and fell over you could hear the crowd laughing...poor guy.

[kendokamax]

I never never push during shiai. It happened to me once during a tournament shiai....I started to "run" toward the guy and delebary pushed him out....I never understood why I did that, it was a very compulsive movement ....other than that only time, I never push ppl out....

I don't like it when people try to push me out of pounds, but we have to deal with it...

..I could not feel very proud of winning a tournament like that, I mean it doesnt require any good kendo skills to win like that..

[AlexM]

I was at one tournament where 1st place in the 3rd and 4th dan category was awarded after jogai (this problem is not reserved to the lower rankings). I was utterly disgusted. Especially since the person who pushed made no attept to do anything but push the other guy out. It was not taiatari. It was just so blatant and obvious there was no reason not give hansoku to the person who pushed (more like lunged in order to knock out).

This to me is a serious problem with the shinpan more than anything else. The problem is that most shinpan here have probably never given out hansoku to the "pusher" but it still wasn't a problem. It just seems to be becoming more and more of a tactic for some people (which will obviously lead to worse kendo). I suppose more shinpan seminars are needed (quality of shinpan could be the subject of a whole other, somewhat controversial, thread come to think of it). That's just how I see it. Kendo is not sumo. . . well at any rate it shouldn't be.

[Tato]

Raiza,

Yes, Tai-atari, in fact I'm 1'85m and 80kg, so I oversize and overweight most of the members of my dojo. In fact I the last seminar we had with a 7th dan who came from japan, he insisted that I used men tai-atari men most of the times when I practiced with him.

Thanks for correction.

Rei

[kendokata]

Hey Guys,

Just a couple of comments. They can be far more vicious in Japan, pushing and shoving you, but when it's malicious and clearing forceful pushing out of bounds, it's never a point (it's in the rules). I have even seen a hansaku been given to the guy pushing . Not to say that it doesn't happen, it happens more frequently and harder, just usually nothing is done (no point/no hansaku). Just learn to move off the push, to use the push to get distance and create an opening. Don't revert to what they do and push back and as for the tournments, well sometimes there is just bad judging, nothing you can do about it.

Next, I never do it, it bothers me, it's not good kendo. And I live in japan and it happens all the time (mind you I'm a big guy). But I'd be lieing if I said I never did it, so, I tell you a quick story. At the uni I practice at, it's pretty competitive and tight (about 300 people - huge dojo, but can still be packed at time).

This guy was pushing and intentially tsuking me (and missing purposly [to injury me {jab it into my shoulder}]) and I got a little pissed (he is about 5'9 small japanese student and I'm 6 and 200 big guy) and the next time he went to push me, I didn't try to back off. I matched him and stood my ground, soon he realized not only wasn't I moving back, but I wasn't even using any power. He tried to move off me and imediatly did men (to close), resulting in tsubazeria again, this time when he tried to push, I pushed him and start running him backwards, right into the corner of the wall and procede to get a few in. Then when I stopped and came to kamae with zanshin, I'm pretty sure he understood because he started playing me right. Not the niciest thing, but it also had to be done (by had to, I mean some time as a foreigner, they push you around to see if you can handle it [usually while everyone is watching {not all of the 300 are playing, some a taking a breathier on the side}]).

Anyways, hope that helps
Michael Castellani

[Hagakure]

At a tournament I recently participated, I met a larger Kendoka, who was nidan, and I was somewhat surprized by his technique. Basically he relied on his size to push his opponent at every chance. My father, who watched his fights (and has little knowledge of Kendo terminology) said he reminded him of a bull or something to that nature.

Is this my preference? No. I push commonly when I'm being pushed, or I'll use hiki-men as a means of striking. But did I find this stradegy in bad taste? Not really. The classes were even at that tournament, and he didn't face anyone drastically smaller.

In keiko I use discretion to my pushing. I discourage pushing smaller kendokas, since I'm a bit bigger then one or two of my usual opponents. Sometimes I'll turn up the amount to change the conditions, but I personally just don't prefer that tactic.

I highly dislike wins solely by pushing. It definitely defeats the entire purpose and spirit of the match; to win with a striking blow. But, ultimately, the people who resort to winning by pushing there opponents out of bounds have no skill otherwise. I must refer to the same tournament above: the shimpan there were very careful about not allowing push-only wins to occur. I must say the judging was very pleasing in that catagory.

[AlexM]

Hagakure,

What tourney was this? And could you please send those shinpan North as to instruct ours on how to deal with people who want to do sumo instead of kendo.

[Hagakure]

AlexM

It was a small tournament put on by All Hallows High School of New York. Tournaments are hard to come by here in the Northeast US, so we jump at a chance for them.

The shinpan there were all GNEUSKF (Greater North Eastern United States Kendo Federation, a division of the AUSKF) judges, many of whom I know from my dojo practices. What was pleasing for me to see was when the kendoka would push for an extended period they would call yame and continue from start. While I'm not sure how well this kind of judging plays in big tournaments, I was very pleased with it. It forced the fighters to really assert some true kendo.

[AlexM]

Cool. You should come North to Montreal (if ever we hold another blasted tourney) since you're in CT (I think tourneys are open to everyone). I think the shinpan were saying "wakare" not "yame", which basically indicates that the fighters step back from each other and then resume (not going back to center court to do so).

[kendokamax]

Alex,

you should have a bit more tolerance with the shinpaning here.
I mean these people (our sensei etc) everyone they make mistake, some sensei dont think they do and dont really want to learn or think they dont need to(and these people are idiots)....But I believe most of them are honest.
I mean being shinpan is a step in a kendo "career". And an important step too, these people are "hopefully" learning from their mistakes.

so dont be too hard on them, they have been in kendo for a while and aren't all idiots. If you continue kendo you will also have to deal with being shinpan. Only thing you can do about it, is to be better than them when you will be the one judging, then show the example to others.

So I ask you to have a bit more tolerance.
In Shiai I lost on many ...dodgy calls, but also won on many. It's all good. They are not hockey ref and arent getting paid for it, remember..

[AlexM]

I didn't say that they were idiots, I said they were incompetent! :p
For the record, I HAVE lost on A dodgy call but it wasn't the shinpans' fault and I harbour no grudge for that kind of a reason.

Listen Max, if people want to shinpan that's fine but they'll also be open to criticism. I've seen such bad decisions that aren't because of the speed of kendo (shiai is fast after all) but rather concious decisions made by the shinpan to award points on hansoku to the person who got pushed out of bounds (the most relevant example), hits where the zanshin is "optional", etc.. These shinpan are undeserving of my sympathy, they refuse to do anything about behaviour that is so obviously not kendo that even I can see it (which means it's rather obvious).

Just remember this, I heard that about 20 or 25 years ago some of the shinpan in Japan were pretty mediocre as well apparently (I don't know on what level and this is 3rd hand info., I have no idea if this had to do with pushing for instance). But a concious decision was made to improve the refereeing and to develop some kind of "art of shinpan" instead of just looking at the highest ranking person and saying he's the best shinpan (which was sometimes not the case). So that experience is probably just trickling down to us now.

It'd be nice if someone could confirm (or infirm) what I'm saying (since it's 3rd hand info.) that has experience with kendo in Japan (Hyaku? Alex?)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Regarding jogai - I was confused about how this is ruled, so I asked an expert (IKF-certified shimpan for last worlds). Of course if you go out of your own accord it's your fault. If you get pushed and it's part of the action of an attack, it's your penalty. ie aite attacks and follows through with taiatari. If the aite is always hitting taiatari and shoving, then the shovee will always get the penalty. The shimpan's only option is to penalise for rough play, which is a seperate issue. But clean taiatari is not rough play.

The only case where the shover can get the penalty is when the shove is not part of an attacking action, ie a deliberate shove. But there's a gotcha here too: the other person has to show that he was ready and alert and actively defending against the shove. So if you get hit once in an attack and you're off-balance near the line, then the aite gives you a nudge (very common situation) then it's your fault because you weren't prepared for the second push.

Really the best thing you can do is be aware of the boundaries. The best way to do this is run shiai practice with boundaries, as opposed to just hauling the flags out.

If you have any more detailed concerns about this, I suggest you ask Christian about it - lots of this stuff is more easily demonstrated than talked about.

[AlexM]

Dude, you know my sensei. Cool. Thanks for the detailed info, it's good to know what the rule book says (usefull from time to time, too bad it's not always applied :D ). We strangely enough run most of our practice shiais without the boundary rule (I'm assuming that's so we DON'T learn to use pushing as a tactic. . . which also explains why we get caught out of bounds so often).

I'd just like to point out (for people's general information) that some tournaments are held in small places and the shiaijo's limits become REALLY small (you have no idea how many people simply "walked" out of the rings at the U. of Waterloo tournament). That being said, always try to keep towards the center of the square, it's just common sense.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by AlexM
Dude, you know my sensei.
I met Christian at nationals in '93, and have since seen him here and there, although he may or may not remember me. He's a good guy. His kid caught me sleeping at nationals this year and clocked my kote in the team matches.

[AlexM]

Don't feel too bad about losing to sensei jr.. I'm awful against that SOB (can't even survive a match let alone win). For a laugh ask Max what he thinks of that guy's kendo. ;)

[kendokamax]

hmm his kendo sucks, he only has one good technique which is kaeshi do-..

I understand man, I lost against him at the national too, in the semi- final of kyu-division. and then lost against him again in final at halifax.. both time were ippon gachi, kaeshi do-!!!!

whyyyy do i always lose against sensei jr :mad: ?!?!

argh do- should be ban...

[2muchryt]

KENDOKATA quote "They can be far more vicious in Japan, pushing and shoving you"

yeah i guess thats true. last year when Iwasa Sensei came
through for a demonstration keiko, at the end of basics, i got a chance to do jiyu-geiko (sp?) with him.
of course nobody (esp. me) could touch him. but I noticed that when I was in line, while he was praticing with other kenshi, he would start to rough them up and push a bit. the pattern was that they would get a little freaked out by the Japanse champion and kind of back the @#$% up, Iwasa Sensei would then ease up. but it seemed to me that he wanted to keep going. so i made up my mind that, as scary as it was, i wouldn't back down. (perhaps i should have thought that through a little more) so when I practiced with Sensei, the more he pushed the more aggresive i got.
needless to say, i ended up on the ground. (with like you said "everyone watching")
i guess my only saving grace was that i blocked his men strike
when i hit the floor. (this got a smile from Sensei),,,,,,,
(come to think about it, maybe he was just laughing at me).
after practice he told me that he pushed me because he noticed after i hit men and went through, my eyes looked forward and past him instead of keeping an eye on him.

as far as pushing in shiai from tsubazeriai, i find that if you move your body to the side in a circular motion, your opponent, no matter what his size, has nothing to push. after a few times of pushing air, the opponent usally stops pushing. also when an opponent pushes and you move in a circle to their side, you will sometimes find yourselve at his side, facing him, with his arms outstreched and his men exposed. a perfect opportunity for a men strike. of course i can only imagine what it must be like to face those rough players in japan.

[Hongsermeier]

I must agree with 2muchryt. When you turn your pushy opponent to the side it leaves them open. I've done this before during taikai's. It's a good feeling to be standing there watching your opponent turn to see where you went as you strike men.

[KATSUJIN]

well...i think pushing should not allowed to be done that easily since there r people who only win by pushing people out of the court.....over here.....someone that i know only prefers pushing and calls it strategy......and continued to do it until i made him run out of the court.....heheheheh.....

[Kendoka]

Imagine if you were in a REAL sword duel and stepped too close to (say) the edge of a cliff or similar.
Do you think that your opponent (enemy) would not give you a shove to get rid of you?

In shiai, if a player steps out of the shiajo, a hansoku (foul) MUST be given - to either the person who stepped out OR to the pusher.

If it was a nice tai-atari that resulted in the player exiting the shiaijo then that person recieves the hansoku, if however the exit was due to a deliberate nasty unfair shove, then the shover would/should get the hansoku.

Having written all that, it is a fine line and difficult to judge sometimes.


Ritsardu.

[nodachi]

"Imagine if you were in a REAL sword duel and stepped too close to (say) the edge of a cliff or similar.
Do you think that your opponent (enemy) would not give you a shove to get rid of you?"

But fortunately we are not fighting on the edge of a cliff in real combat.

I do agree that pushing may be a means to winning for some people or between living and dying in the cliff scenario, but what about those lofty sportmanship/respect sort of goals that are supposed to be an important part of kendo? Doesn't that make pushing not such a nice and respectable thing?

Just a rhetorical question...

Everyone is entitled to their own style, but I am planning on going for no pushing. If I can't beat the opponent with my shinai and without resulting to pushing, then I deserve to lose.

[Tato]

Well, I belive that this attitude is Ok for jigeiko. In shiai you are expected to win, I'm discovering that in shiai you can do lots of things that wont be well regarded in jigeiko (like pushing, evading, blocking, etc).

Rei

[2muchryt]

quote:
"Imagine if you were in a REAL sword duel and stepped too close to (say) the edge of a cliff or similar.
Do you think that your opponent (enemy) would not give you a shove to get rid of you?"

yes, but if you step around him in a circle, since you are no longer in front of him but to the side or behind him, he is the one who can be pushed off the cliff. he might just fall off from his own momentum, or, you dont have to push him, you can tsuki him out of bounds/off the cliff too.

but i must say, i agree with confound about winning with the shinai however much losing sucks

[KATSUJIN]

well...if u r pushed when u r near the boundary then i think it is ok....but i have seen people push others from one end to the other side of the court........!!

[Kendoka]

Nodachi, tai-atari is part of Kendo, unfair ugly pushing certainly is not and as I wrote - it is a fine line.

I also wrote - "If it was a nice tai-atari that resulted in the player exiting the shiaijo ..."

IMHO winning with a beautiful cut is probably the best way to win.

[KhawMengLee]

At my last shiai the rules were very clear. If the opponent is on the line it quite exceptable to push him/her out following an attack.eg. Men tai atari push. But they also demonstrated that if you just run in with no attack and push(bulldozer) then you will get hansoku.

[Paburo]

last tournament i got pushed out of bounds twice. 2 hansoku and lost in quarter finals (1-0).
i guess i'm too kind and let ppl push me around.

i do not push back though, or try to KO ppl out of bounds. pushing is dishonourable to me.

i'm tired of this already. shame on them....and possibly death to the next who tries to push me out of bounds :D

[sminki]

I tend to agree that for right or wrong / good or bad, it is a part of kendo (probably more right than wrong). However, I do get angry when some people use it without discretion or use it ALL the time (like someone said earlier, it is kendo, not sumo). In one of the tourneys I entered, I saw a Japanese guy probably around 5'10" 180lbs. or so going against a 5'2" 90lbs woman in which he shamelessly pushed her around to keep making her fall down. What's worse is when the woman would fall down, he would stand over her and assume jodan no kamae while looking down at her. The match was a draw, but I certainly felt that he was not using tai-atari in the correct manner. The captain of his team was also very embarassed during that match and kept on covering his face.

[Steve]

I used to hate "pushing" in matches for the same reasons many other people have listed above. When i question Sensei about it, many say that "its part of Kendo, get used to it". Others say that its a physical way of showing ones "fighting spirit", and still some sensei have said "people (usually beginners) push because they don't know what else to do."

I think all of them are correct.

Now, there is "pushing" and them there is "wrestling". Most judges will call wakare if wrestling occurs. So now, all you need to do is learn how to deal with pushers....and its VERY easy.

If you encounter somebody who likes to push; trying to overpower you via brute strength, you have the advantage. To push, you need to tense muscles. Tense muscles creates bad form in Kendo, and bad form creates suki (openings) or causes mistakes.

Here is somewhat of a "checklist" of "methods against pushers" to try. THEY WORK. Practice them against your favorite pusher and once you get used to them, you won't find it such a problem anymore.

---Pushing from tsubazeriai---

1) Learn to do Hiraki-Ashi equally as well as you can do your standard footwork. This seemingly simple monvement is your life saver against pushers. Its also great for some difficult waza!

2) Let your body and your arms relax...don't tense any muscles or try to resist the pushing. Mix this with Hiraki-Ashi to keep yourself from the edge of the ring.

You'll soon notice that because you are relaxed, your actually harder to push around. Also, you'll be able to "feel" what your opponent is going to do very easily. Why? They are tensed up from pushing. To change from pushing to doing an attack (hiki-waza) they have to change the tension in their body. When you "feel" this, either give them a quick nudge to throw them off balance or take the chance to practice suriage or shinai uchi vs the coming hiki waza. Either way, you have the advantage to attack.

If you know your opponent is going to give you a big push, as they extend their arms to push you (can't push from the hips in tsubazeriai!), use hiraki-ashi to slide towards their side, and give their (extending) arms a push. voila! your essentially behind them, and have the advantage. I'll call this "the dodge" for convienience in order to refer to this later.

---Heavy Tai-Atari Pushing---

Once you get comfortable with the dodge, you can use this same concept to recieve a Tai-Atari. Much harder to do, let alone be ready for...but it'll work. But...if you know a Tai-Atari is coming, you must also know an attack is coming. Try attacking them! But here is your advantage: most people who try to do a strong tai-atari prepare for it while simultaneously doing their attack. Meaning, they're probobly not in control of their body or forward momentum.

(Watch a beginner and a Sensei Try this. The beginner who wants to have a strong tai-atari looks like a cannonball during their attack..no control. A Sensei will look exactly like they always do...fast, but in control. Both will get a strong Tai-Atari. One will be due to control and proper technique, the other due to uncontrolled brute force. Which one do think will be full of suki?)

So, make use of your new found mastery of Hiraki-Ashi! Use it to move to the side (Just enough to put their Kensen off of your centre line...a few inches is more than enough!), giving you control of centre. Perform a nuki men, do, or kote. It'll work. Why? You're calm, relaxed, and in control. Your opponent is not; they're too busy worry about mustering enough force to shove you.

After a while you'll notice two things...pushers get defensive against you enhancing your seme, or they get frustrated and start making even more mistakes.

Either that, or they learn to do things properly.