hiki tsuki

[2muchryt]

where o' where can i read about hiki tsuki?
does it in fact exsist?
how about in english kendo publications?
can any of you nihongo experts find somthing
about it in japanese and break it down "eigo style"? (onegaishimasu!)
i would ask my sensei, but he has me
working on this other thing called "men"
and i dont really have that one down yet.

[ben]

The only way of doing "hiki-tsuki" is to thrust your sword backwards under your right arm to pierce the attacker standing behind you... :)

b

[kendokamax]

hiki tsuki?

if you can find a way to do it.., then it will exist.
Looks pretty impossible to do :p

ya men is hum pretty important !!

[ben]

Did I say "right arm"? I meant the other right. Left arm. With your right hand. Kiai is "Hwoooaah!"

b

[Confound]

Ben,

I beg to differ. There are instructions for hiki-tsuki in two kendou books at my dojo, which are unfortunately in Japanese. I can't figure out how to do it though, I put an effort in now and then with the practice dummy, but it looks like a hopeless cause. I am hardly great shakes at normal tsuki, and it isn't a strike point that I'm overly fond of yet.

c

[qpuppy]

this is very interesting...
how can you perform a hiki tsuki?... i thought the waza of a hiki is to strike and for the correct zanshin is to get the hell out of the way as fast as you can..... since tsuki is a thrust how can anyone perform a tsuki while going backwards with the correct zanshin? I thought tsuki with a tsuki is forward?

sanpai?... you option?

woof woof

[Alex]

Bollocks. There is no such thing.

Confound, if you can't read Japanese, then it beats me how you could read hiki-tsuki. Then again, that's probably why you could...

[alexpollijr]

Hasso, hiki-tsuki...
Seems like the guys at the dojo are trying to reinvent kendo.

Anyway, never saw any mention about hiki-tsuki, even in advanced kendo books in japanese. Besides, gravity and inertia mechanics would make it prohibitive if we're on the same planet.

You could shift the gravity center backwards and stamp like hiki waza and trust the arms and lunge forward with the torso as much as you can, but that would look ludicrous.

[mingshi]

Strange, now even Nito is more Kendo than Hasso? Just because Nito can win more matches?

I did mention once about Hiki-Tsuki. In Kendo Kata #7 Shidachi's side, one performs a Tsuki to counter Uchidachi's Tsuki. Shidachi performs tsuki by stepping backwards (hence "Hiki").

[alexpollijr]

Say, are there any eight or seventh dan 'hasso' sensei? Did you ever see hasso been used in the All Japan or the Internation Champ or whatever high level competition?

I'm not saying that it's *not* kendo. It's just an invention. Nobody did it before seriously. I don't think anybody will as well. Probably because it doesn't win more matches.

Alas, nito doesn't win that much matches too.

Anyway, I would not call that motion in tachi #7 a hiki technique.
Try it next match, tell me how it worked after.

[Alex]

Too right. The movement in #7 is not, nor has it ever been called hiki-tsuki, and is not a technique per se.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The movement in #7 is a defence against tsuki, not a tsuki in itself.

[amatsuda]

Hiki-Tsuki?

Sounds like an oxymoron to me...

Kind of like saying "retreating - attack"

amatsuda

[KATSUJIN]

Sorry to say this...but i remember seeing a point taken by a hiki-tsuki in one match in a AJKF tournament.....don't ask me how........i saw it in the video.....

[Alex]

REPEAT

There is NO SUCH technique referred to as hiki-tsuki!!

What more can be said about this? If you can find me a book from any era on kendo (Japanese) which even makes mention of the term Hiki-tsuki, I hereby pledge to post the first person $100. :alien:

[Ares2907]

That's US dollars right?
None of that crap New Zealand currency thanks ;)

[KATSUJIN]

well....it is not officially called hiki tsuki...but....the person who did it did move like finishing a hiki waza..but did the tsuki with his left hand only....

[kendokamax]

was it from tsuba zeria??????????

impossible...........must be micheal jackson doing kendo
"moonwalk ashi whatever footwork" style

[Confound]

Alex,
give me you address, I will photocopy the bloody page, and give it to you. I can't read Japanese, but I've made a habit of studying the kanji related to kendou, at least. I can't read 'The Tale of Genji', but I can at least read practice schedules and instructions.

I'll hand deliver the photocopied page to you, if you'd like. I'll be in Kyoto over Christmas.

I myself was surprised by the waza, and I can't imagine how it could be done. That's why I brought it up. It seems ridiculous. However, there it is, in the manual. I can't explain it, I can't do it with my limited skills, and frankly, I doubt it's a very practical waza.

c

[Alex]

Confound- Scan it and put it on this forum.

[2muchryt]

what if we write a book called, hmmmm,,

"Hiki Kote : The Secret Waza"

can we still get the $100 ?

Confound, Can you email me that page about
hiki tsuki too?. japanese is fine. thanx!!!!

[Kenshi]

Hey,

I could imagine doing hiki tsuki if my shinai had a button on it that would allow extra take length to pop out (below the nakayui) ... thus my body could go back and my shinai would go forward (i.e. extend in length). Kind of like an umbrella or something. I could try it at the World Kendo Championships next year... nobody (except Confound) would expect it ... excellent! This could be the breakthrough that allows us Euros to beat the Japanese/Korean saturated teams!

Alex, I suggest you meet Ms. 'Confound' and get the hiki tsuki information in person ... go on. You can then report back.

[Alex]

Ahh....I'd prefer to get the scanned copy. By the way, the $100 prize money was going to be in NZ currency, but somebody called my bluff. Busted! Alright...$US, not that it makes any difference. Hiki-tsuki doesn't exist anyway.:o

[kendokamax]

I DID IT I DID IT
hiki tsuki masta- i am now

[KATSUJIN]

yes....it was done from tsuba-zeria..the tsuki was done from tsuba zeria.....

[ben]

Tsuki is a waza that really takes a high level of technique and confidence to pull off. This is because it relies on nothing more than absolute assurance in the strength of your kamae. The only protection it offers during the execution is the holding of the centre itself - lose that and you're open on all sides.

Hiki waza is the opposite, "the last refuge of a scoundrel" to use an old phrase. It is not ideal kendo but a waza of last resort, used to get out of a less than ideal situation. The feeling of hiki-waza is to cut and run away without even taking the time to assess whether your cut was successful.

So not only is the term 'hiki-tsuki' technically an oxymoron, it is philosophically one as well.

b

[2muchryt]

then couldn't the same be said about men, kote and do?

[Confound]

Alex,

I admit when I'm wrong. Your comment made me think that I must not have had a close enough look. Admittedly my reading skills are limited. A Japanese teacher looked at the section in the book, then laughed at me, and I thought of you, Alex.

Apparently the section is about 'dangerous things to avoid from tsubazeriai', and it did say 'hiki tsuki', but it wasn't referring to a waza.

I stand corrected.

confound

ps - i still think there's a reason my sensei makes me study seitei iai though. even if i can't figure it out.

[Steve]

Hiki Tsuki does exist. In fact, most of us have encountered it and probably didn't realize. Its called "KENZEN" and occurs in the 7th Kata. Right at the start, one steps forwards and thrusts, the other reatreats and thrusts. Its not exact, but the essence of it is there. Always good to study KATA...they encode everything you could ever want to know.

Secondly, i have a Kendo VHS tape on "Basics" from Korea. It shows various Tsuki waza: Ura / Omote shinai uchi -> Tsuki, as well as "Hiki Tsuki". It is NOT done from Tsubazeriai. As the opponent moves forward, you essentially use Hiraki-ashi to either rear quarter and strike Tsuki ala KENZEN in the 7th Kata. Slick.

[Steve]

"KENZEN" was described to me by a Sensei from Japan (Kimura Sensei) who visited Canada over our Thanksgiving. He spoke no english, but we had a great translator on hand. She translated his word "KENZEN" to mean "Body moves back as the sword moves forward".

Oh, my brain is currently out of whack. I think its the 6th Kata, not the 7th which features KENZEN. I'd have to have a bokuto and a partenar here with me to remember 100%....haven't done kata in a while.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Steve
Hiki Tsuki does exist. In fact, most of us have encountered it and probably didn't realize. Its called "KENZEN" and occurs in the 7th Kata. Right at the start, one steps forwards and thrusts, the other reatreats and thrusts.
That's not tsuki. Shidachi is defending against tsuki by using the shape of the sword to deflect it up and to the side. It is *not* a counterattack tsuki.

[Steve]

no, i agree its not. but in my opinion this portion of the kata contains the essence of the waza in question. Whether I'm right in this or not is up for debate. (one i'm quite able to lose!)

I always try to tie in waza i learn with the kata, and this is the connection that seemed most appropriate. I was told once that the kata embody every technique in kendo, and i firmly believe that. If there is a more appropriate "connection" PLEASE let me know!

Thanks for the reply Neil.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Steve
no, i agree its not. but in my opinion this portion of the kata contains the essence of the waza in question. Whether I'm right in this or not is up for debate. (one i'm quite able to lose!)
This particular point isn't really up for debate. Shidachi is moving backward to negate uchidachi's forward step, he's turning his sword sideways so that the curve of the ha faces his opponent's blade and forces it sideways, and he's lifting the sword up for good measure. It's all defensive, not offensive. I've gotten a lot of different opinions from various instructors over the years on kata, but none of them have ever described that motion as tsuki.

As far as kendo waza being in the kata, this is true. The particular waza in question is a nice defense against tsuki. If someone attacks tsuki, you can just lift your hands and rotate your wrists to the left. Their kensen will be deflected to your left. If you step back like in the kata, you can control the distance back to a normal fighting maai. If you step forward you can counter attack, normally men.

[Shikai]

How is it that such an impossible waza, hiki tsuki, can get so many posts? Just curious.

[Steve]

most likely because it is so uncommon.

Perhaps i misinterpreted what the sensei was saying about KENZEN, or perhaps it was mistranslated. Maybe, he was just "dumbing it down" for us... who knows. The point is, i've been corrected and thats what counts.

[Alex]

Hiki-tsuki does not exist. The movement in is #7 a tsuki while moving backwards, but it has never never been referred to as "hiki-tsuki"!

As for Kumdo, they have a whole array of techniques which are not included or acknowldged in kendo. We are talking about whether an actual technique called hiki-tsuki exists in kendo. It doesn't.

[2muchryt]

#7 was described to me by my sensei as basically a "ki fight".
whatever it is, i think that it is kind of obvious that it is not anything
remotely related to a "hiki tsuki"

the reason that this thread was started was because somebody in japan
said they read that it existed. because the person that stated it later said
she doesn't really read japanese well, she simply misunderstood what she was reading.
the person who originally stated that she "discovered" hiki-tsuki, later
acknowledged that it was a mistake.

quote
"As for Kumdo, they have a whole array of techniques which are not included or acknowledged in kendo."

this is totally incorrect.
"Kumdo" is, in fact, only the Korean pronunciation of Kendo.
it is, in fact, the same kanji; "ken" and "dou".
kendo was brought to Korea with Japanese colonization in the first half of
the 20th century. Japan, hardly a country known for anything original, cannot,
in fact, claim that its sword fighting techniques (or culture for that matter)
were not influenced by both China and Korea.
although there are differences in style such as not performing sonkyo before
a match (something Japan itself is now questioning) the basic core and ideals
of Korean kendo or "kumdo" or, in fact, the same as their Japanese counterparts.

if it were true that Korean kendo has a "whole array of techniques which are not included or acknowledged in kendo", then why does Korea consistently pose a legitimate threat to Japan in the WFC?
in the last WFC, A Korean Sensei took third in the individual (that means he beat a few Japanese kumdoists) and the Korean team came close to the
coming inevitable upset. i was there and i don't recall seeing a bunch of
techniques that were not acknowledged.
but I do remember Korea kickin' some serious ass:)

[Alex]

I totally agree with everything you have said about Kumdo and Kendo etc. etc. I admit saying a "different array of techniques" was an exageration. However, I have an intersting KUMDO kihon video, and there are a few techniques in there which I have never seen in kendo before (including the classic bunny hop jump up in the air and beat your opponent's head-men). I have also done a fair bit of research into the historical relationship. But, there are techniques used in Korea to great effect which are not acknowledged in Japan. Apart from the fact that different terms are used for all the techniques, even the same techniques are done with a distinct Korean flavor. e.g. turning and running back after an attack etc. Of course I acknowledge that this doesn't make the technique necessarily different. But I don't know any Japanese shimpan who would consider it valid.

I was fortunate to train with the Korean national team at the Kyoto Riot Squad about 4 months ago. Most of the day was spent doing shiai, and it was interesting watching the looks of amazement on the Japanese side when the Korean's were pulling all sorts of bizzarre waza out of their hats, and the looks of absolute disgust on the Korean faces when the Japanese Shimpan refused to acknowledge them. The reverse was true in shiai where there were 2 Korean shimpan and 1 Japanese. This was not only to do with the actual waza per se, but also general preferred ma-ai and various other elements which differ even only slightly in general perception. :D

By the way, the reason the Koreans always pose a threat to the Japanese at the Worlds is because they are bloody good at what they do:eek:

Besides that, they are totally driven! When they lost to the Kyoto police in the morning session of shiai, they spent the next 60 minutes of their 'lunch break' doing kakari-geiko before the afternoon session. One of the Japanese police guys said "We'd quit if they made us do that!!"

[2muchryt]

also,
not a gambling man myself, but i wouldn't put any money on Korea this year.
from what i hear from the inside, Korea, this time probably wont be able to best Iwasa and Co. (of course anything can happen in shiai)
but thats not to say Korea hasn't come close in the past (anybody remember
the robbery that took place in Seoul ?) or wont in the future.

[2muchryt]

Bennett Sensei,
i heard about that practice session. thats so great that you were there!
sincere thanks for the insight and for sharing your experience.

[Cary Y. Mizobe]

Korea has always had a "thing" against Japan, probably stemming from the time Japan "occupied " Korea.

Recently, I have overheard "discussions" between Koreans and Japanese debating "who invented what". The Koreans claim to have "invented" quite a bit. This includes Kendo and Judo.

The Koreans have taken to "changing" things to make it "their own". Some of this has included "no sonkyo" and "redesigning" the hakama. We have all seen Team Korea's white "hakama" with the black koshi ita and "racing stripes". A former student of mine from Korea described the "new" hakama as "big pants". Another Korean student of mine "forgot" to bring his hakama to practice one night and just "happened to have" a "Korean hakama" in his car. What he wore that night was a "hakama" made of some kind of "stretchy" material. The "hakama" had no himo! Instead, it had an elastic waistband and was worn like a pair of pants! He told me that this "style" was popular in Korea.

Korea has ALWAYS been "hot" to beat Japan in whatever. Before the last World Tournament (in Santa Clara, Calif.), Shikai-sensei (currently new Southern Calif. Kendo Fed. president), of Chuo Dojo, was in Korea. He attended (and practiced at) some Team Korea practices. He told me that one night some wealthy businessman-type addressed the team after the practice. He wrote a check for $100,000 to cover their expenses! He said, "Beat Japan!" According to Shikai-sensei, he also said that if Korea beat Japan, he would give each team member $10,000!!!
You wonder WHY Team Korea tried so hard at the WKC!?

Right now, there is some controversy going on in the international Kendo scene. Apparently, a faction of Korean Kumdo has formed their own international federation to compete with IKF. They have approached the IOC in an attempt to get Kumdo into the Olympics. To qualify, a sport must have a certain number of countries participating. IKF, at one time was trying to do the same thing years back, but always fell short of the required number of countries. Later, Japan abandoned this idea. The "scuttlebutt" I heard was that they had seen how martial arts such a Karate had "degraded" in quality after becoming popular worldwide. IKF didn't want Kendo to follow suit.

The problem is that this Kumdo faction is trying to claim IKF member countries as their own to qualify Kumdo for the Olympics. I heard that IKF is "scrambling" to find a solution to this "situation".

I guess "the Korean Conflict" never really ended!


With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei

[munenmuso]

Well, between the two countries and about history, who is the revisionist and who is the distortionist?

[JSchmidt]

"The "scuttlebutt" I heard was that they had seen how martial arts such a Karate had "degraded" in quality after becoming popular worldwide. IKF didn't want Kendo to follow suit."

As I've mentioned before, just look at what happened to Taekwondo after it got in the Olympics. (I practiced TKD many years ago)..I watched the last Olympics (even stayed up very late just to watch the TKD) and it was pathetic...it was just about 'touching' the opponent and not a 'fight'. No force, no meaning. I definitly do not want to see kendo go the same route.
(And I will rant about it, everytime the subject comes up :D )

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by munenmuso
Well, between the two countries and about history, who is the revisionist and who is the distortionist?
It seems pretty clear that Korea is the revisionist country. However I can understand their anger with Japan and the desire to make kumdo their own. My biggest concern is the Korean push to make kendo an olympic sport. Their very sports-minded approach would result in kendo becoming just another flavour of fencing - high speed tag with no meaning behind the movements.

Fortunately for us all, they don't have a chance. The IOC is all about the money, and there's no money in Olympic kendo. The IOC has too many summer sports as it is, and is rumoured to be looking at eliminating some of the poor performers entertainment-wise, such as fencing, modern pentathlon etc. Nobody watches fencing on TV, and there's even less interest in kendo on TV. Hell, watching kendo on TV bores me, a player!

[2muchryt]

quote:
Well, between the two countries and about history, who is the revisionist and who is the distortionist?

munenmuso, being a national of the Phillipines, a country that Japan invaded, occupied, and murdered countless men, women, and children, i am sure you are aware of the ability of the Japanese to be revisionist (anyone ever see a Japanese text book regarding the "regretable incident"?, not to mention an apology?).

quote:
"It seems pretty clear that Korea is the revisionist country."

yes i agree, but Japan, hardly a country known for anything original, cannot, in fact, claim that its sword fighting techniques (or culture for that matter) were not influenced by both China and Korea.

why does there always have to be some kind of "grassy noll" conspiricy regarding the Koreans? "they're doing this" or "they're doing that", "they're up to somthing", they're sneaking around making plans to take over kendo" GIVE ME A FRIGGIN' BREAK!
when will some people just get a grip and realize that some koreans just really, really like kendo. maybe they bunny hop abit and are kind "sporty" but come on! can one really think the thing that motivates the korean kendo team is some $10,000 carrot dangling in front of them? thats just plain paranoia. (nobody works THAT hard for 10 grand) of course some people are motivated by politics. i assume there is some of that going on
in the Korean Kumdo Assc. i assume there is also some of that going on in the AUSKF as well. but as for the vast majority of korean (or other) kenshi, that i have seen, they just simply love kendo. so do i. :)

[Alex]

We all do otherwise we wouldn't be here.

As for political motivation, a lot actually depends on what Korean kendo federation you are talking about. See Vol. 1 Issue 3 of Kendo World.

Sorry, had to put a plug in there.:bandit:

[2muchryt]

thank you. i will check it out.
i only know of the one KKA but my statement was just kind of
of a general statement that i think most all federations, associations, etc regardless of race, creed, etc have the potential from time to time in varying degrees to have some element of them to be politiclly motivated or corrrupted. it's in (some) human nature.
anybody can single that element out in a particular group and
cry "conspiricy". i just feel that the kendo world community can be positive, come together and focus on our similarities and not our differences.

"lets all love each other and beat each other on the head with sticks"

[munenmuso]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2muchryt
[B]quote:
Well, between the two countries and about history, who is the revisionist and who is the distortionist?

munenmuso, being a national of the Phillipines, a country that Japan invaded, occupied, and murdered countless men, women, and children, i am sure you are aware of the ability of the Japanese to be revisionist (anyone ever see a Japanese text book regarding the "regretable incident"?, not to mention an apology?).

2muchryt, said atrocities are forever printed in our history books already and are considered acts against humanity. I'm pretty much aware of that particular chapter of our historyand will never forget that, sensing the obvious, I asked that question academically to further expound the question raised in particular about the history of kendo per se. But those Japanese textbook revisions sure give me the chill in the spine, read about that also last year. It was a major issue here also.

[2muchryt]

munenmuso,
i am sure you are well aware. i didn't mean to imply that you wern't. (sorry ah!) i just wanted to make a point that Koreans are not the only ones that are capable of "revision". somtimes it seems like people think that Korea is always fabricating and rewriting history, and that Japan stands as some kind of beacon of historical truth. thats why i was glad to see your post questioning the Japanese side as well. (somebody quickly replied "the Koreans" diba?) but i didn't mean to question you, just to take your original point a little further.

[sminki]

[i]

Right now, there is some controversy going on in the international Kendo scene. Apparently, a faction of Korean Kumdo has formed their own international federation to compete with IKF. They have approached the IOC in an attempt to get Kumdo into the Olympics. To qualify, a sport must have a certain number of countries participating. IKF, at one time was trying to do the same thing years back, but always fell short of the required number of countries. Later, Japan abandoned this idea. The "scuttlebutt" I heard was that they had seen how martial arts such a Karate had "degraded" in quality after becoming popular worldwide. IKF didn't want Kendo to follow suit.

The problem is that this Kumdo faction is trying to claim IKF member countries as their own to qualify Kumdo for the Olympics. I heard that IKF is "scrambling" to find a solution to this "situation".

I guess "the Korean Conflict" never really ended!


With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei [/B]

[sminki]

[i]

Right now, there is some controversy going on in the international Kendo scene. Apparently, a faction of Korean Kumdo has formed their own international federation to compete with IKF.....The problem is that this Kumdo faction is trying to claim IKF member countries as their own to qualify Kumdo for the Olympics. I heard that IKF is "scrambling" to find a solution to this "situation".

I guess "the Korean Conflict" never really ended!


With kiai :^{ )

Mizobe-sensei [/B]

There's something that should be explained in light of this and it can be a bit confusing. The Korean kumdo organization which has formed its own "competing" international federation is called "World Kumdo Association". I don't think it can be considered as a faction of Korean Kumdo as it employs different rules altogether from those of IKF (and hence KKA). The World Kumdo Association is comparable to a hypothetical situation in which, a bunch of American football players organized an international body called "World Football Association" and tried to get into the olympics. Although it's called "football", we all know that it would not compete (at least directly) with FIFA. That's what the situation is. WKA a group of Koreans (and others) who employ different rules/techniques/style/training from kendo/kumdo as we know it and they are calling it kumdo and they are trying to get their "art" into the olympics. As Alex points out, this is pretty well explained in the 3rd Kendo World issue, but it can be confusing to anyone who's not completely familiar with the situation as the term "kumdo" is used for both kendo (as we know it) and this new fencing "art" of WKA.

Having said that, KKA (the Korean governing body for kendo/kumdo as we know it) also has been voicing its opinion that kendo/kumdo should become an olympic sport. KKA's motivation has more to do with stomping out these so-called fake/immitation/alternative (whatever people want to call it) kumdo and making kendo much more popular. I think there are pros and cons for the argument.

With respect to changing hakama styles, etc., KKA's position is that such things are not specifically prohibited by IFC regulations and that it is free to do so. What KKA is trying to do is that by making these changes, it removes some of the Japanese flavor from kendo and making it easier for them to say that kendo is originally from Korea which the Japanese fully developed into a sport. Whether or not one would agree is obviously another matter. However, in a country like Korea in which people still have resentful feelings toward years of raping and pillaging done by the Japanese, these changes do make the marketing and promoting kendo/kumdo a bit easier. Anyway, it is a very touchy subject even within Korea as there are people who oppose these changes. Presenting the issue to anyone outside of Korea gets even more difficult since the term kumdo is used by both KKA and WKA, although they're talking about two different ways of fencing.

Phew~. Any questions?

[2muchryt]

wow!
thank you so much for claryfying all that.

okay, blending the current tangent with the original thread,
do you think that there is a such thing as hiki tsuki in some of those crazy WKA video tapes? :) (just kidding)

[Steve]

If i can get my roommate to get his Video Capture Card working, i'll see if i can put up a clip of the tape i have showing the
"Hiki-Tsuki".

[chidokan]

The only way I can visualise this is an avoidance going back diagonally, in chudan, as tekki attacks men. If he is going faster forward than you are going back and you thrust then its a sort of a tsuki but not a good one. Otherwise its an avoidance followed by a proper tsuki, which I found out last night is quite difficult to do correctly. Kote is far easier! To me this smells of 'bad' kendo shiai where good technique goes out the window in order to win by any means...its just not cricket old bean! (I know, its kendo...)

Tim Hamilton

[samurai999]

??? 7th kata?? Hiki-tsuki??? wth are you guys talking about? The so called "hiki-tsuki" is more toward the end of deflecting the tsuki of the uchidachi...

From what I've read about the WKC Korean contingent in kendo mags, i have heard only negative things. Their kendo/kumdo is good no doubt, but here are a couple of things.

The riots that followed the WKC in Seoul.. Crazy fans started fights, throwing beer bottles, after a so-called bad call by the shimpan supposedly led to their loss. I heard that some of the Japanese shimpan had to be "ushered" out of Korea from my sensei.

At the 2000 WKC in SC, they did a couple of things. They complained first about the food. I don't think they ate any of the food we supplied. They brought their own. Then, they complained about the accomodations and didn't stay in the "village" we set up for them. They also had their own Korean speaking transport people take them to and from the airport when we had plenty to bring all the participants to the taikai. Then the rest of the contingent walked out when the ladies team lost early. I don't know about you but I thought that this was very disrespectful. I was there as a volunteer so I'm pretty sure this happened.

To me, it seems as if Korea's response to the years of finishing second place is "since we can't win because of the Japanese rules and Japanese judging, we'll win with our own type of kendo". That is the impression I get. If this is so, then it is the typical reaction of a sore loser. Doesn't this go against the principles of kendo?

2muchryt, so Japan is the only one that gets the "bad neighbor rap"? Mind you that China has their past and so does North Korea. So while Japan does have things to be accountable for still, it doesn't mean that Japan is the ONLY country that has things to be accountable for.

My 0.02,
Tim

[mingshi]

- HA -

Just when did you all started to take people so seriously?

Also, we are all in June 2003 now. Please, come back to the future. And stay educated

Chill out duuuuuuude!!!

BTW Mr Samurai999, your last paragraph is absolutely politically-incorrect. Please re-do your high school World History before you comment on the subject matter.

[William Honda]

The mongol invasions.

China's treatment of Tibet.

[Inouye02]

hey honda , it was really cool that Shikai Sensei came and had dinner with us...his stories were really interesting to hear , remember the expression when i told him about a little weasle that wants to complain to him ? he started laughing..

anyways off to keiko with the Japanese Navy now ..

[mingshi]

Mr Inouye02,

Is there something wrong with your PM button???!?!?!?!

Mr Honda,

Those counted as well?
Looks like someone is forgetting where Fat Man and Little Boy were from hmmmmm?

(Yet another Confound thread started flamy and ended pointless...)

[Keith Hong]

- Japan is the only one that gets the "bad neighbor rap"? Mind you that China has their past and so does North Korea. So while Japan does have things to be accountable for still, it doesn't mean that Japan is the ONLY country that has things to be accountable for. -

People living in the West don't sem to realize how atrocious the Japanese were during WWII. Gang rapes(organized by the "Imperial" government, biological testing(all those wonderful information you learn in medical texts about infectious disease, the U.S government confiscated from the Japanese army's data gained from testing on Korean and Chinese subjects), forced labor and military drafts(a lot of those kamikaze pilots weren't Japanese) and much more.
Half a centurey later, the Japanese government and the Japanese people still haven't made a formal apology to their neighboring countries for their crimes.
Saying Japan isn't the only country in Asia with a checkered past is like saying that the Nazis weren't the only bad guys in WWII and that the Jews got what they deserved.
If you don't know what you are talking about, keep your mouth shut!!!

[Inouye02]

nope all buttons working fine ...

[KhawMengLee]

Gang rapes(organized by the "Imperial" government,

Oh, yeah...imagine having men grabbing your daughter, wife, sister, mother off the street and then being thrown in a room to "service" the glorious imperial army...yup...women raped by up too 50 or more men in a day...

Read some texts on this...especially the one intitled "The Comfort Women"(official name for the victims). Yup, soldiers waiting in long lines, some of them jerking off before their turn so they can last longer etc...yup, its all in the book.

I agree with Mr Hong, our families and relatives were here during this time and won't make light of the situation.

[Hongsermeier]

Saying Japan isn't the only country in Asia with a checkered past is like saying that the Nazis weren't the only bad guys in WWII and that the Jews got what they deserved.

I don't believe that is what was meant by Samurai 999. I believe his statement was just to say all countries have things in their past that they are not proud of. Gang rapes, forced labor and other atrocious things happened by many countries.

As for not realizinig how atrocious the Japanese were....many americans died at the hands of the Japanese in prisioner of war camps and other places outside of battle. I think we understand.
:cross_eye

[Hongsermeier]

I agree with Mr Hong, our families and relatives were here during this time and won't make light of the situation.

Mr Lee...you were there? I understand your family and relatives might have been there. My grandmother(wifes side) lived outside Hiroshima. She saw first hand what the US was capable of. She had every right in the world to hate the US. It was war and now it's over. Don't forget the past or your doomed to make the same mistakes. However, STOP LIVING THERE!! Grandmother was able to move on and accept me into her family. Why can't you accept the fact that it is history. A appology from someone not even born when the crimes happened is kinda useless in my opinion. :cross_eye

[Keith Hong]

You're white, right?

[Keith Hong]

So, African-Americans and Native Americans shouldn't feel bad about slavery and reservation camps? It's all in the past?

[Keith Hong]

And there's nothing wrong with Nazi concentration camps and the "Final Solution" since there was a war on?

[Hongsermeier]

Did I say there was nothing wrong with thoses things. NO!!!


They were all bad. That being said. I'm of German decent. Does that make me responsible for the concentration camps? I live in US, does that make me responsible for slavery? Do I need to appologize for this and pay retributions?

I think if you answered yes to any of the above questions your a moron. :cross_eye

[Hongsermeier]

You think this should be another thread since it has nothing to do with hiki tsuki? :cross_eye

[Hongsermeier]

Back to the subject. I tried Hiki Tsuki a little yesterday with Inouye. I don't see how it's physically possible, unless you doing Nito. If anyone has some video I'd love to see it. :cross_eye

[KhawMengLee]

Mr Lee...you were there? I understand your family and relatives might have been there. My grandmother(wifes side) lived outside Hiroshima. She saw first hand what the US was capable of. She had every right in the world to hate the US. It was war and now it's over. Don't forget the past or your doomed to make the same mistakes. However, STOP LIVING THERE!! Grandmother was able to move on and accept me into her family. .

Stop living there? No, I don't dwell in it and nor do my grandparents(much to my relief because my last two girlfriends were japanese). What I am saying here is for the benefit of the victims. The korean women who were raped want an apology. They aren't looking for money or compensation but just acknowledgement. How the hell can you put a price on one's dignity and life.

What is going here is the Japanese government are dragging their feet over the issue and hoping that these women will die of old age and it will be forgotten.


Why can't you accept the fact that it is history.

I do accept the fact it is history. What I do not accept is ignoring the lessons of the past. You think that we should just ignore the fact that for "fun" they made my grandfather drink gallons of water then jump on his stomach because it was hilarious to see him vomit blood. Or that they would slice open a pregnant woman's belly and play around with the unborn featus.

I don't look judge a person by what their grandfather did ages ago or by his/her race. You take each person as an individual. But I do think that the Japanese government(as a representitive of Japan) should own up to the past.


A appology from someone not even born when the crimes happened is kinda useless in my opinion

Maybe, one day(and I hope to god it never happens to you) years after after your home is invaded, your family murdered, raped, etc and some idiot says "oh, why can't you just accept it as history", we'll see whether you stick to your philosophy.

[Hongsermeier]

I will stick to my philosophy. There is a movement in the US right now to get our government to "pay up" for slavery. My family was still in Germany at that time of history. Why should I pay for slavery. Including interest? You can't put a price on one's dignity and life.
Should they own up to the past...yes. Will they....no. Since you live there, you are well aware of the asian need to save face. Don't hold your breath waiting for a appology.
They women who were raped will die, hopefully they will never be forgoten. :cross_eye

[KhawMengLee]

asian need to save face.

ah, pride is with everyone...let's not forget the refusal by the Aussie govt. to formally apologize for the stolen generation.

I agree that sometimes the guilt is carried too far. My german friends are soo apologetic about the war that at times I'm like...chill...

But the difference is that Germany has recognized its past and have paid in reperations as well.

[Hongsermeier]

I'm not familiar with the Aussie issue.

I just find it strange that the people hurt by different things are not normally the people screaming for an appology.

If your familiar with the Rodney King case it's a perfect example of this. :cross_eye

[sminki]

Inoue

All buttons working fine because they're important buttons. I did not live during that period and don't intend to hang on and relive that period in the past, but nevertheless these (and not only raping & pillaging by the Japanese during WWII, but also things like humanity issues about the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Nazi's crimes against humanity, etc.) are all important issues that everybody should be educated on so that no one repeats same mistakes in history. It is true that Japanese and Koreans have had a historical "dogs and cats" kinda relationship comparable to France and Britain, so it's probably true that Koreans tend to single out the Japanese and are very competitive against the Japanese, but the WWII issue is an important issue which supercedes the Korean vs. Japanese thing. If you said "all buttons working fine" in a sarcastic way implying that Koreans have chips on their shoulders about the past Japanese imperial rule and that they bitch about a historical non-issue, I think you were certainly out of line for saying such a thing.

Lastly, there is NO hiki tsuki. Put an end to it, people.

[Hai_hai]

This is interesting that a hiki tsuki thread turned into the injustices from Imperial Japan.

There have been a lot of injustices through history. They still occur today.

What Imperial Japanese forces did in Southeast Asia during the 30's and 40's was completely wrong, but has nothing to do with kendo. We don't ignore those injustices, but we don't have to associate the past actions with Japanese people who weren't even born yet when it happened.
Some Japanese are still p*ssed we had concentration camps and dropped the H-bomb. Was that an injustice or a case of "what goes around comes around"?

[Hongsermeier]

sminki...I think your mistaken about the meaning. Inoue was simply answering a statement by mingshi about if his Private Message button was working. :cross_eye

[sminki]

Oops. My apologies if that's the case. Apparently, all my buttons are working. :D

[Inouye02]

son of a bitch!!!!.. if i was going to say something about this subject i think i would of written something better then ( my buttons are working fine )..this is past history for me , my grandparents have long passed away..do not bother me with this crap!!!

Sminki, Apology accepted this time ...

Thanks brad for letting them know ...

[samurai999]

Originally posted by mingshi
-
BTW Mr Samurai999, your last paragraph is absolutely politically-incorrect. Please re-do your high school World History before you comment on the subject matter.

I admit, I'm not a person who studies in depth (if any) into issues like these, but as humans, we ALL commit acts we are not proud of and want to hide serious or minor. Japan is no different, China is no different, America is no different, North Korea is no different, Iraq is no different, Vietnam is no different, etc. I can go on and on listing atrocities it wouldn't make a dent into the whole picture.

As for my final paragraph, I'm don't see where it is UnPC. If anything, I think that it is totally PC considering that everybody focuses on Germany and Japan whenever the word "atrocities and crimes against humanity" pops up. Countries other than Japan and Germany have their own pasts and it is only fair that other countries get exposed as well.

Tim

[samurai999]

Now then.. Back to hiki tsuki. It really doesn't exist. I have looked into the English books released on kendo and there is no hikitsuki. I can see where it can be confused with the zanshin after a properly executed tsuki however.

[Old Warrior]

Discussions about historical morality and national ethics are what motivated the worst characteristics of our respective societies to surface, in he first instance. We would all be better served if we stuck to Kendo issues.

[William Honda]

Mingshi,

Will you stop being so enigmatic? I cannot read into what you are saying.

Mr. Hong,

Your writing leaves me wondering if you are in agreement or disagreement as to accountability.

I must say that most countries that warred (I don’t think Iceland was in any war but could be wrong), committed atrocities. Some on their own people. I do not think anyone is saying the Japanese are innocent of atrocities. They were brutal to all their enemies, but China and Korea especially. However, I will also say that Japan is not the only country that has a brutal past. East or West. History marks that.

Do not assume we know not what we speak of. I think you misread the intent of the statement. I could be wrong on that so if I am, please correct me.

How this got to hiki tsuki I have no idea. but it should have been after Mr. Hong's post another flaming thread. I give up.

[sminki]

Thanks for accepting my apology this time.