When is it appropriate to start learning sashi waza?

[Charlie]

Thread title pretty much speaks for itself. I've heard different things. I think I started doing sashi-kote on my own around ikkyu and officially learned sashi-men either as an ikkyu or shodan. Some people think you should teach sashi attacks as soon as possible, others the opposite. Your thoughts?

By the way, I hope I have my term correct. Sashi attacks are the small, fast attacks in which the shinai is NOT raised over the head but, rather, you attack with the hips and perform tenouchi as you fall/leap toward tsuki.

[Ares]

Hmm, the way my sempai showed us small, medium and large attacks is that they are all the same form except that exactly as they are named you dont perform them as big. hmm difficult to explain. use the same technique for each, he showed it to us well, by making a smooth transition from big men to smaller men, that helped me understand what he meant. try asking your sensei. hmm hope ive painted a good picture of what ive been shown to be big/medium/small hits.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't find that to be true at all. I make the distinction between "big" and "small" technique by saying that in big technique, the shoulders are involved whereas in small technique it's mostly or all wrist. Which is not to say that the tip can't travel quite a lot when using small technique. If you try to make a small attack using shoulders like a full swing, you'll be very slow.

I try not to show smaller technique until the student has been in bogu for a while and it's clear that he can make big attacks well, but is being held back by not having a faster option.

[Charlie]

Well, that's the rub, isn't it, Neil? You want the person to be more competitive in shiai or jigeiko and the sashi waza seem a must.

What's a "medium?" Mine go from big to small - although, I guess in some cases you're lifting, just not all the way up. Not a fan of that, I usually go big or small.

[Neil Gendzwill]

To me, "medium" is a competitive big technique - say, where you lift your hands up to about face height, like for a doh. It's still a big technique because the mechanics involve the shoulders. You're just not going for the full butt-slapping warm-up men.

As far as sashi-waza - just say no. When I think sashi-waza, I think super-light contact and about 6" of tip movement. Get enough tip motion in there to make a solid contact. What's "enough"? Varies by your ability.

[Ares]

I do agree with you neil. When i do a big men, i find the focus is on power. When i do small men its more the forward movement that makes the sound of the hit, as you dont life the shinai much, but i still agree with my sempai that the form should remain the same, perhaps you are right in saying the focus is on different muscles.
Cheers

[kendokamax]

I also think that there is not any 'small' technique
It's either big or medium :)

if you watch any good competitor, there is always quite a big movement of the tip of the shinai. It's just very very fast and fluid.

either way it's tough ...

[Charlie]

Not sure I agree with you guys. Are you saying you never do sashi waza?

[kendokamax]

I just try to do a litte bigger than what I think is called sashi waza.

Just so that the shinai actually swings you know. I used to do only sashi men before actualy seeing people with crazy kendo who actually do quite big techniques.

look at any good High school student in Japan and you will see they do pretty big men uchi.

but if someone does sashi men with a lot of momentum foward it can look strong enough to be a point. or if you start a swing where the kensen is already low you don't need to do a big swing for having a strong strike: See miyazaki!!

[Neil Gendzwill]

I just try to do a litte bigger than what I think is called sashi waza.
What he said. Several sensei (including my own) speak of sashi waza in derogatory terms. I define it as a wrist-based technique where the tip travel/speed/force is insufficient. Basically, one where all semblance of cutting motion is sacrificed to speed.

[mingshi]

...I thought cutting has more to do with te-no-uchi than big or small...?

[Neil Gendzwill]

You need some speed and force. This is one of those things where it would be best if I could demonstrate.

[Charlie]

You're the uber nerd, Neil, make with the digital camera!

[kendokamax]

haha virtual kendo lesson?

go neil we are waiting!

[JByrd]

I can't really answer that question, but I have a few thoughts I like to put out there for criticism...

I think there is value in keeping the swing big for lower ranked people so they don't start thinking a successful attack is all about speed.

I used to think the reason I could not make ippon in a match with a big cut was just because my swing was too slow. Gradually I figured out that it was mostly because I was not observing my opponent and choosing a good time to attack. My Kendo improved when I resolved to keep making big cuts, and pay more attention to finding a good opportunity. It seems like when I'm really successful at breaking my opponent's kamae I have all the time in the world to strike.

I guess I subscribe to the idea that "the long way around is the shortest way home."

[kendokamax]

I dont like the notion of 'bigger the swing is, the better it is'. Of course in some kihon it's important, but not in normal keiko.

However, there is a need of an arc motion when hiting.

same thing goes for fumikomi! it needs some minimal height to get powerfull!

[Ares]

I agree with the first point, as a beginner i still like to swing bigger than normal, but on the other hand about ippon, if you see the opening but arent fast enough to do anything with it, then whats the point, you can see a big men coming from a mile away...you could easily counter it, like i said in another thread i dont think its the velocity of your swing, its the power when you snap your wirst that makes the cut good. but then again you dont need to be super fast to get a hit when you see the opening. i suppose it experimental...i will ask my sensai about this.

[Mikeyprime]

Sashi men has become more of a connotation. When people think of sashi men, they think just push forward and grip. the entire cutting motion is elimiated and in reality, you would only scratch your opponent's head. In all instances no matter what cut you do, kote, do, men; big or small; the motion is the same. It is an arc. the arc is just smaller on a sashi men but nevertheless, still there. without the arc (kihon) there will be no power on the cut, regardless of how great your wrists are. This is exactly like a golf swing. When a golfer wants to alter distance, he adjusts his swing (arc) in comparison to the distance he wants to achevei, however, the same arc motion is still there.

That is the reason it is not good to teach begginers sashi waza. They SEE push forward and grip, when in reality it is an arc with a fluid motion and good te no uchi. They must grasp and be able to utilize the basic arc before translating it into different sizes/adjustments for sashi-waza.

[Paburo]

i think it should be taught when the student grabs the concept of tenouchi... regardless of rank.

teaching sashi (chiichai waza as we also know it :D) waza to someone without a minimum knowledge of wrist control will just not work.

now whether it is a valid nice tadashii samuraish waza or not... it all depends on the kenshi/performer i think. ive seen sandans with a very weak sashi waza. it looks as if they're killing flies really. tap tap....

but i've seen some nanadan perform very very small (barely rising shinai 10cms-3inches above the head) and still make a devastating attack. i'm sure that if they used a katana instead of a shinai they would split my head in two like a watermelon.

ive been always taught, that even if i make a short motion/sashi waza it should have enough strength to be considered an ippon.

[Nanbanjin]

Thread title pretty much speaks for itself. I've heard different things. I think I started doing sashi-kote on my own around ikkyu and officially learned sashi-men either as an ikkyu or shodan. Some people think you should teach sashi attacks as soon as possible, others the opposite. Your thoughts?

As a rule of thumb raise the shinai to the point where you can see the target under your left fist. Obviously this means for kote and do you wont lift the shinai as far as for men.

As Neil said, you usually hear sashi-waza referred to as something to be avoided. It's good to keep your shinai down so it is pointing towards them as you move in (seme), but I think it's better perform the cut itself straight up and down.

[nodachi]

Small waza is to be avoided, or so I have been told, and I tend to agree. We practice both big waza and small waza throughout our practices, but in jigeiko I am still reminded to use bigger waza. Sure, small waza will score points in shiai, but if you want your kendo to develop more in the long run, you should still focus on big kendo.

Not trying to sound all knowing, this is just advice I recieve from others and I tend to agree.

[Charlie]

It seems to me that this topic is circling around the old debate about shinai-oriented keiko vs. a more textbook keiko. I've been thinking about that a lot myself lately. I'm still very much in process on this and am not sure what else to say right now. Do some of you seriously never use small waza?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Do some of you seriously never use small waza?
Use it all the time, by my definition. Just want to make sure you're straight on what some of us are talking about - I can easily swing my shinai in a 90 degree arc and hit near as hard as a full swing and I still call that a "small" technique because it's all wrist. And as Paburo said, some sensei can hit plenty hard with a very small backswing. So long as the contact is solid, good enough. That's why I'd have to demonstrate in person (video not good enough) so that you can feel the hit and hear the sound and understand the difference between sashi-men and a good "small" men.

[D'Artagnan]

I was told that a cut should flow from the shoulders, to the elbows, to the wrists, to the shinai - regardless of size.

What is often the case with big cuts, is people raise thier arms without thought, to a level they think will please thier teacher. then they either bring the shinai crashing down like a hammer, or let it fall down effortlessly and use what is effectively a small cut right at the end.

Don't get me wrong, however, I think it is important for beginners to use big cutting actions. But, i do not believe that 'small' waza should be shunned or disapproved of for more adavnced kendoka, especially in shiai. And as for power, I dont think that it is the case that all small cuts have no power, as a cut must have a certain amout of power in order to be considered a point.

Yes, lots of people can't do small waza correctly, but then lots of people can't to big waza correctly either.

[Gerald Audette]

Yes, lots of people can't do small waza correctly, but then lots of people can't to big waza correctly either.
I definitely agree. I was always taught "If you can't do large waza, you can't do small waza. Therefore do more large waza." (this was followed by sensei showing me their large waza :wink: )

I also find that our beginners will do nice large suburi when we are just doing suburi, but when we get them to hit something, they all try to speed things up and make it smaller, which tenses them up and detracts from their technique.

[Charlie]

Hm. Neil's right in that this is hard to describe but I'd like to point out that I really dislike a 90-degree cut (not saying you do this, Neil) as it gives way to push-pull movement with the hands (pushing with the right/pulling with the left/"breaking the wrists," as we call it). And I agree that a men needn't come all the way past one's head. But I do sashi-waza like this (this is how I was taught to do sashi-men, or what I'm calling sashi-men; is it correct?):

1) seme to tsuki

2) FALL toward the tsuki (best way to describe it)

3) as you "fall," push off the left leg

4) the left leg and the hips push the arms forward (don't push the arms fwd. too much yourself)

5) tenouchi and fumikomi as the shinai reaches the men (or kote, or kote-men, doh, what have you)

That to me is a sashi-men/waza. Is it anathema to some of you?

[Neil Gendzwill]

5) tenouchi and fumikomi as the shinai reaches the men (or kote, or kote-men, doh, what have you)

That to me is a sashi-men/waza. Is it anathema to some of you?
If by point 5 you mean, just using tenouchi to squeeze the tip onto the target, then yeah. Don't do that.

[JByrd]

... you can see a big men coming from a mile away...you could easily counter it...
That's true if your mind is calm and you're reacting normally. If your mental state has been broken down, you can't react normally. Sometimes when a sensei plasters me I feel like I was glued to the floor or something. He pressured me, my mind froze, he sensed it, and the strike was over before I could react.

Once in a while I can make a strike like that, where my opponent is just left standing there, looking astonished. To me, that's the pinnacle; I want all my strikes to be like that. :) All the hard work was done before the strike, so the strike is incredibly easy, as if they just let me hit them.

[Charlie]

If by point 5 you mean, just using tenouchi to squeeze the tip onto the target, then yeah. Don't do that.

I'm afraid that is what I mean. I have been shown both to lift slightly and then drop and to not lift much at all and just squeeze.

Here's the thing: a lot of people do this. Bad, in your opinion? What say you others? If you were to rewrite my 5-step thing above, how would you do it?

[JSchmidt]

^^
Add a tad of shoulder/elbow/wrist rotation to step number 4.

Jakob