Racial Differences/Tension Question (First Post!)

[Phorest]

Hello! This is my first post on these boards, as I just discovered them yesterday.

I have a question thats been nagging at me. I've been interested in Kendo since mid summer...ever since one of my best buds brought back one of his friends from college (In New York, 6 hours away :( ) who has been taking kendo for about two years, and told me all the details/history/info on it. I hadn't heard of Kendo or seen it before, but after hearing all about it from him I went on the net and began to research Kendo extensively.

Thats how I stumbled onto the Westside Kendo Dojo website (USA) and first noticed the Dojo list. It turns out there is a Kendo club very close to me (about 25 minutes away) at Salem Teikyo University. Now I've been to the campus before, and I've seen that there are only about 500 students...most of them being of Asian descent. This does not bother me in the least, but it brings up a few concerns about the possibility of taking Kendo there.

Will I be accepted (as a white teenage guy) into a mostly Japanese Kendo class at a mostly Japanese University?

I'd just like to hear your thoughts on racial differences in U.S. dojos (maybe even in the UK and Canada too :D ), and how that can affect learning the art of Kendo. I'm very, very pumped up about learning Kendo, and I don't want this small obstacle to throw me off.


P.S. I am actually quite intereted in Japanese culture..especially the language. I've done about 6 months of online Japanese language classes (even before I met the guy who introduced me to Kendo)...so I really have no "jitters" about being in an all Japanese class, I'm just wondering if they'll have any "jitters" about me. ;)

-Matt

[Ares2907]

Hmm, you might be okay if you hand over your first born child. Be warned though, they will eat it in front of you. Don't worry too much though, you'll grow to love the taste of raw baby, just wait 'till the next white kendo newbie starts. Be sure to keep some shoyu handy.
Oh, and if you have an incredibly large penis, you'd better cut it in half. It doesn't do to be bigger than sensei, you see. Actually, you'd better cut it in half just in case.
Hope this answers your incredibly pertinent and astute enquiry.

[Phorest]

Wow.
I'm insulted to say the least.

I hope I didn't come across as racist or anything else in my post, I was just generally curious as to what things are like in Kendo as far as racial differences ae concerned.

I also don't have any misconceptions about Japanese people, as you seem to think I do. As I said at the bottom, I have studied their culture and language myself out of personal interest. I have met and am friends with several Asian Americans my age as well. I am BY NO MEANS a racist or bigot.

If my post has offended anyone, I apologize. Perhaps this wasn't the right place to post a question.

[alexpollijr]

That was not pretty funny, to say the very least.

Anyway, about your question.
As you see on the fancy little green flag on the side, I'm not from the US. Brazil, however, has the largest japanese community in the world (after Japan of course) and many dojo here are founded, led and attended by japanese descendants.

At the national championship, about 70-80% are japanese descendants too, not to mention all masters, judges and board of directors of the federation.

Never, however, I've met any teacher or student who would look down upon non-japanese. They're often quite happy to teach locals their art. Globalization baby, it rocks.

So, why don't drop down there and speak with the head teacher, I'm pretty sure he'll be happy yo have you as his student. If you want further insight, be sure to e-mail Mizobe sensei from the Westside Kendo Dojo. He's a very, very nice man and will be glad to help you out.

Cheers and good luck

Alex Polli

[Ares2907]

There are questions and then there are undeniably stupid questions. Let's leave it up to the reader to decide which one your question falls into.
For one reason or another, you seem to have a preoccupation with race. The name Phorest is also very close to Forrest, which makes me wonder . . .

Here are a few points that you may wish to consider.
1) People are people. No matter where they are from. Yes, even USAicans. They all have similarities and differences that have nothing to do with their country of birth. What a concept.

2) It's difficult to comment about a particular dojo unless one has actually been there. There are similarities and differences within dojos too, you see. One might make assumptions, but who knows if they are right.

I might, for instance assume that there are dojos in the southern United States where tenugui need not be worn because the pointy, white face-masks they wear serve well enough, and that white keikogi and hakama are the go, even outside the dojo, but I would never know for sure unless I went there.

If you asked 'has anyone been to this dojo? Does anyone know whether or not it is a seething hive of racism and bigotry?' you might have received a more kindly response. Then again, maybe you were just unlucky that I saw your post before someone less bastardly. *shrug*

[Phorest]

Bastardly is right. :mad:
My last name is actually Forrest. What a coincidence.
Ares I'm going to choose to ignore your comments and respond to a post thats a little less...Bastardly.


Never, however, I've met any teacher or student who would look down upon non-japanese. They're often quite happy to teach locals their art. Globalization baby, it rocks.

Thats what I wanted to know! In looking around at various Kendo sites on the net I've seen very few pictures of white guys/gals practicing Kendo...and I was just generally curious as to how accepted they are in modern Kendo. I suppose the best thing for me to do at this point is to just head over to Salem and find out for myself.
Thanks again for the insight.

-Matt Forrest

[David J]

Our site www.hizen.org has lots of whities on (and a good mix of other shades). But then, we are in London....;)

As you're new round here, I thought I should just say that you wont always get such a bashing for asking "stupid" questions. And Ares isnt a bad guy by the way, just a little, errr, sharp on this occasion....

<rei>

Dave

[Haowen]

Once you put on your men, nobody can see what race you are :)

One of the objectives of coming up with kendo was that it is a globalized standard which anyone can learn, and any sensei of sufficient rank can teach. It's not a secret family ryu where the best techniques are only handed down to pure blood descendants. You will probably be accepted no matter your gender, skin colour, height, weight, planet of origin, or how you eat your eggs.

As long as you do surrender your first born child. (Just kidding, it's actually much worse than that, once you put on bogu you have to submit to being pummeled on the head and ribs by newbies who whack too hard).

[Matthew Lagden]

now that we have all decided to support you after all...

i sympathise to an extent, and IMHO Kendo is more 'Japanese' than say Kung Fu is Chinese, and while i belong to the same Dojo as Dave above, which is very international, and not dominated by japanese - or any particular nationality, the experience might be very different (and more intimidating) at a dojo that was say 3/4 japanese in membership.

but i say, what the hell, go along and see if you like the people and the club etc.

any club can be hostile to new members, regardless of its 'topic' or composition.

and they might be thinking "it would be really nice if some non japanese would join to learn our lovely martial art" or something...

good luck!

[nodachi]

I find that most people, here or back in the States too, are usually happy when someone of a completely different background takes an interest in their art/activity/whatever (there are always exceptions, but whatever). The whole we are all human, yay diversity kinda thing. Just go, have fun.

My club has been more helpful and friendly than I could ever imagine, and they like to make jokes that we are now an international Kendo club.

:)

[KhawMengLee]

In my dojo in Australia there is only 1 japanese guy there and he is the assistant instructor(yondan). We get lots of visiting japanese kendoka though. The benefit here is the instruction is very detailed in english and one can grasp the concepts more easily(especially kata).

Back in Malaysia the Senseis are japanese and there are a lot of japanese kendoka as well. Communication may be harder but the training is not lacking because they can still communicate points. Just in different ways...plus it gives me a chance to learn a few japanese words like "hayaku!"

[Phorest]

Thanks for the encouraging replies everyone. I realize that I must sound like a newbie asking a newbie question, but oh well....I am a newbie afterall. ;)

Expect plenty more questions like this one! :D

[2muchryt]

you mean i didn't have to cut my penis in half?

[Ares2907]

No, but thanks for your contribution to the gene pool ;)

[Atama]

hey yeh know theres always gonna be small minded people where ever you are, but the beauty of kendo is you get to hit them with a big stick.

most of the people I train with would give an arm and a leg to train with japanese students and sensie, I say just go down an train.

[Charlie]

Agreed. I know the dojo you're talking about, and know for a fact that you will receive great instruction there. It'll be a great cross-cultural learning experience, I'm sure.

[Voodoo-U]

I don't think there was anything wrong with his having asked the question.

In my past experience, there is a stigma of being a serous practishioner to overcome in many martial arts before you are really 'accepted'. Sure you Seifu or Sensei will teach you and be polite, but the attititude of students is somethings difficult to overcome.

In Kung-Fu (Wu Xing Quan) it took me 2 weeks of 4 day a week practices before my fellow students seemed to really open up and accpet me as someone seriously desiring to learn the art and not some 'cowboy' who just wanted to learn to beat people up. After 6 years of instruction, the students were some of my best friends.

Kendo, at least in in my experience, was no difference. It took several classes before the other students opened up beyond the general, "so why do yuo want to learn Kendo", whereas new Korean or Japanese practishioners were more openly welcomed.

I think a lot of it has to do with particular social/cultural barriers, and just getting past some social stigmas on both sides.

I think more of it has to do with people wanting to make sure someone, especially when learning an art/sport outside their own culture, is serious abut there desire to learn then it is they trying to be rude or stand-offish..no one likes to have their time wasted, and no one wants to see someone coming to learn an art based upon the wrong expectations.

[Abe Froman]

Phorest, to awnser your question, I met some of the Salem guys at the tournament in Indianapolis, and they seem very nice. I can understand your concern in this situation, but I assure you there won't be any kind of problem. In a situation like this it's best to just charge in head-on anyway. You'll never know if you don't.

Ares don't be a pen0r. He meant well. Put yourself in his shoes.

[Phorest]

Abe, Charlie:

Thanks for the positive info on Salem! I'm really excited about learning Kendo there...but it looks like their program may not exist anymore. I e-mailed the Student Life department at the school, and was told that

We did have a fairly active Kendo club for a few years - but most the students have graduated in the past two years - and unfortunately it is no longer active.

Ugh! But, I also e-mailed a lady at another dojo near me (2 hours away), and she said that I should look into Salem International Kendo club. She also gave me the name of someone there to contact, and CC'ed my e-mail to him.

So, basically right now I'm just really confused as to whether Salem still does Kendo. If it does...great. I'm going to head over there ASAP. If not, it looks like I might not be able to take Kendo afterall. :(

[kendokamax]

if there is no more club in that university..

maybe you will need to revive the kendo club there!!!

try to find some people interested in kendo around...hopefully you could find old members/kendoka that could teach..

but one problem is....you never touched a shinai before eh?

haha thats even more a challenge..

hmm I dont think someone who never did kendo could do that...eh life is unfair sometimes.

good luck

[Ares2907]

I disagree. I can't comment on Phorest's intentions, well-meant or otherwise. What irked me was the pre-occupation with race and the presumption that training may be affected in some way simply because of racial difference. Perhaps cultural/social difference may have been a better phrasing.

Voodoo - He was not asking how long it would take him to be accepted into the fold. He was asking if he would be accepted on the basis of his skin color. You aren't seriously saying that these social differences exist simply because your skin is a different color are you?

The practitioners who were more readily accepted into your dojo - were they perchance already experienced practitioners or were they raw beginners too? my money is on the former.
I'm not saying there are no social/cultural differences to overcome, however I am fairly adamant that it has nothing to do with skin-tone. It may well have to do with familiarity with culture and custom, but again this is more a product of geography than race imho.

[Voodoo-U]

The practitioners who were more readily accepted into your dojo - were they perchance already experienced practitioners or were they raw beginners too? my money is on the former.
I'm not saying there are no social/cultural differences to overcome, however I am fairly adamant that it has nothing to do with skin-tone. It may well have to do with familiarity with culture and custom, but again this is more a product of geography than race imho.


Good thing there wasn't a bet, to answer your question, they were raw beginners. 1 of the group came to 2 classes and never returned, while the others are making moderate advancement and still come to class. Perhaps I should have been more specific in citing my experience as it pertianed to new students to kendo, not just to the dojo.

And while I believe the largest portion of their judgement is probably based upon cultural differences and familiarity with the customs, etiquitte, etc. I could not say that skin-tone is not a factor. It plays a factor in a great many sports, especially non-professional, and Kendo is not above such bias.

And, IMO, you are being naive if you think some people still do not judge others based on skin-tone. As much as we would like to live in a perfect world, we do not.

As others have indicated, I wouldn't worry about going to a new school, as regardless of how/why/if they pre-judge you, once you show a desire to learn what they have to teach, you would probably find a good home. Don't spend time sweating the small things, when you find a good school, be glad you were able to do so.

===edited for typos

[Abe Froman]

Phorest, the Indy tournament was in November....maybe I was talking to the former members of the Salem U club. At any rate one of the Salem guys won mudansha, so if you do manage to track them down you will be in good hands.

[John W]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voodoo-U
[B]
And, IMO, you are being naive if you think some people still do not judge others based on skin-tone. As much as we would like to live in a perfect world, we do not.

Good call Voodoo!

Lets face it folks, when someone from one different culture comes along into another culture I will bet my liver that the person will, by complete ignorance, offend someone from that culture. I think we all are bumbling idiots when it comes to other people's values/ cultures etc.. We don't mean it but it happens.

In this case I do belive that Phorset's inquiry was sincere even though he manged to offend someone.

[Ares2907]

I don't believe I ever said or inferred that racial discrimination does not occur. If I didn't know better, I'd say you were creating a strawman. The argument was never about whether discrimination occurs or not. Do credit me with some intelligence.

Nor am I saying that kendo is above racial discrimination. I've been on the receiving end of it once or twice. I still don't believe that it is a major factor of breaking into new circles. What I was talking about in my previous post, was more to do with groupism and social/cultural differences.

John - It appears you are talking about culture and not race. Is it not possible (for example) for a western guy to be brought up in an asian country from birth, learning all customs and culture of that country. Were someone from another culture to err, intentionally or otherwise, would the western guy (brought up in an eastern culture) not be as insulted as a born native?

imnsho, the thread has wandered a bit. I wasn't intending to get drawn into a discussion of race and such, I was making light of an ill thought out question.

Q. Will racial discrimination in the dojo hinder me learning kendo?

A. HTF should I know, go and have a look
Some people got the humour in it (kudos to them).

[Charlie]

Phorest,

Weird. Hopefully there are still some active members in Salem who want to keep it going. Maybe there's, like, one or two, and they don't consider themselves a club, but are still getting together to practice. Hook up with them if at all possible.

Ares, no offence, bro, but when Phorest asked his rather innocent question, you were a dick to him (even if it was funny). Is this a case of the internet exaggerating aspects of something that were meant to be tongue in cheek rather than offensive? Maybe. Anyway, god of war, chill, honkey. ;)

[Ares2907]

None taken. I was being a dick. That was kinda the point. Ask a dumb question and you'll often get a dumb answer. I was just playing. :p

[Confound]

What a sad day it is when we're so PC that we can't point out that someone has made a silly blunder by using race and culture interchangably. I'm sorry I wasn't here sooner, Ares.

confound

[Charlie]

You guys are dicks.


:D

[Phorest]

Just as an update: I got an email back from the guy at Salem. They do indeed have practices every wednesday night! He said that practice resumes when everyone gets back from vacation the second week of January.

WOOHOO! I can't wait! Looks like I really will get to do Kendo afterall. I'm so excited!!!!!

[Charlie]

Yaaaaay!

[Charlie]

Yaaaaay! Seriously, I am way excited for you. Give 'em your best, man.