Kendo in the Olympics [Archive] - Kendo World Forums

Kenshi

4th April 2002, 12:42 AM

Hey,

I am totally against kendo in the olympics ... but, like Nils, I would probably pitch-up at the event. I heard rumour that had Osaka won the 2008 bid, kendo would have been a guest-'sport'.

There would be lots of negatives to it ... categorisation of kendo as 'sport' in the worldseye, the problem of spectators (i.e. "whats going on"), potential loss of reigi... etc etc

Can you imagine a Japan Vs Korea final and some 'dodgy' shinpan decision making ?! Would the wronged person/team lose with grace? Can you imagine doing the commentary "um, it didnt hit the correct area, but the judges say its a point, so its a point" !?
I saw a couple of *really* bad displays of etiquitte at last years europeans ...... I am sure if it were the olympics problems like these would occur more often, and be magnified.

The only positive things about it, that I can think of, would be exposure, the new blood it brings, and - oh my god - funding!

Would you wear an adidas-do or a nike-hakama?

Cheers,

Dagon

20th April 2002, 06:12 AM

Hello All!

The points made against Kendo being an Olympic sport seem valid. I, however, could live with those negatives in light of the huge growth Kendo would see world-wide.

We should hold the past close to our hearts and minds and at the same time look forward...

Thank you,
Andy

(BTW I'll take a Nike-hakama;))

Boso

20th April 2002, 08:41 PM

Hello,
Kendo would surely gain a large amount of new blood taking to the wooden boards worldwide. Perhaps this would lead to other sources of production for Kendo bogu. Competition amongst manufacturers and a reduction in the frightening cost of a setting yourself up with a decent bogu.

Perhaps too the air of elitism kendo often has attached to it in the West would begin to dissipate. Maybe this elitism surrounding Kendo is due to the expense. Not just of bogu but of travelling to Japan for tuition as an alternative to the scarcity of teachers in our own countries. There is the impression at times that non Japanese kendoka feel themselves to be priviliged holders of knowledge and I guess rightly so but it does get a bit much.

All of these things seem to be positives.

One negative that would probably occur could be the dilution of it's attractive 'Japanese concepts' from the notion of Kendo as a sport. budo or the philosophy would surely be the first aspect to be gradually chipped away as 'unnecessary' to the sporting focus.

Look at what has been happening to Judo in the west since it became an Olympic event.

Kendo as an Olympic sport, yes, it's a very interesting area of debate.

JSchmidt

21st April 2002, 04:24 AM

"Look at what has been happening to Judo in the west since it became an Olympic event. "

And Tae-Kwon Do for that matter.(Which I practiced 12 years ago). I watched a few of the fights at the last olympics and it was appaling; It was more about 'touching' the opponent, rather than hitting. Imagine Kendo with no fumi-komi, no follow through and no zanshin, fought with rubber-shinais...that's what it looked like, compared to pre-olympic TKD.

Jakob

mkomoto

28th April 2002, 02:00 PM

Dear Forums Member,

While the response (264 persons from 36 countries) to the survey on "Should Kendo become an Olympic Event" (published in the journal's first issue,) was quite good, and the (at time of writing 246,) views of the Forums "Poll: Kendo in the Olympics" also indicates interest in this topic, there have only been 16 votes so far.

I can imagine that looking at the issue from our present viewpoint, many of us have been adverse to the idea. However, if circumstances changed and we found ourselves with kendo as a regular event, many who had raised their voice against kendo in the Olympics might find themselves eating their words, so to speak, changing 'camps' overnight.

Accordingly, I guess that the many who have viewed this new poll-posting, have found themselves in a "moral dilemma," and as a result, we find many views but only a scant few votes.

(If you've read this far...) I think it only goes to underscore the (1) sensitive nature of this topic, and (2) importance of issue.

I am sure that everyone would be very interested in seeing the broader consensus about this timely discussion.

Like so many of the other postings, offering personal insight and experience, reinforced or modified by exchange with the broad spectrum of the other members, enables us to more clearly define our own positions. It furthers our growth.

I appeal for you input and votes in this poll.

M.I. Komoto
Chiba, Japan

Boso

28th April 2002, 03:07 PM

With no disrespect intended. In answering the question as posed here, isn't the moral dilemma whether or not to put oneself on the line by in effect stating 'yes of course I would be proud to represent my country even if it was to the detriment of kendo'?

I think it would be much easier for people to answer the question if the question was put differently.

Perhaps two questions might do it.

Do you believe Kendo should be an Olympic sport ? Why or why not ?

mkomoto

28th April 2002, 04:26 PM

Dear Boso-san,

Thank you for you comment, and by no means did I infer any negative sentiment. Your point is at the heart of this matter.

I agree that some further discussion into the pro/con of kendo as an Olympic event should be carried on; however, to some great degree that issue has been surveyed and reported on in the fore mentioned KW journal article (Issue 1.)

The greater number of respondents indicated that they would prefer kendo not be included to the Olympics for various reasons, i.e. detracting from cultural base, disappearance of etiquitte, becoming sports like activity, etc..

As a result of that survery, some argued that even though most were against the proposal, if kendo did indeed become a regular event in the Olympics most would not hesitate to try to make the team.

It is indeed a "devils advocate" question in its present form. It does put each person "on the line." It goes directly to the point without making (this) extensive background discussion. Mr. Robison after hearing so many viewpoints about the survey and the subsequent argument (including my own,) posed this as the simplest yes/no approach (perhaps to shut me up (?))

It may seem that we are beating a dead horse, with the survery, the report, this ongoing exchange we engage now. However, the potential for these scenarios we are discussing are very real as a pro-Olympic movement continues on. I hope by the means of/result of these discussions, we will each form more clearly our position on the matter.

As you suggest, I hope that some will make comment on a "why or why not?" basis and that our discussions will continue.

Thank you,

M.I. Komoto
Chiba, Japan

John W

29th April 2002, 04:01 PM

Hi everyone.
Well this is an interesting thread!!
I actually voted that I would compete at a kendo event if it was in the Olympic's. My reason is pure- I enjoy kendo.

But the crux of the matter should it be an Olympic event?? Well the Olylmpic's to start with is to promote peace within mankind and the same must be said for kendo, more or less. I admit that I have yet to meet a person within kendo circles who is mannerless, arrogant and well...unpleasant. So by having kendo in the Olympic "limelight" it would attract new blood which is good for any sport/ martial art and lets face it- will make them a better person. Also funding has been mentioned and who can complain with that?
But I have no doubt in my mind that there would be more to lose than gain by making it an Olympic event in terms of... well, what has been mentioned above.
Kendo is unique in that it is not only a martial art but a WAY OF LIFE. It emcompasses the culture/ history and perhaps, to some degree, the essence of a country. I know few sports where the person stays in it for a majority of thier life. When the commercial world gets it's hands on it it would cease to be kendo. I remember when I first started kendo, I read a book by Michael Finn, at the last page he gave a quote- that once something in its original state is changed it ceases to be what it once was (something like that anyway). Surley this is what would happen to kendo if made an Olympic event?
The funny thing is though- I am against kendo becoming an Olympic event and yet I would want to compete in it!! But like I said - I enjoy kendo!

John W

29th April 2002, 04:09 PM

Ok to be clear and take a stand - "no I would not want kendo to be an Olympic event".

Boso

29th April 2002, 04:45 PM

Hello Komoto san,
otanjobi omedetou gozaimasu.

I think there's potentially a lot at stake in making Kendo an Olympic sport. But mostly there's a lot to be lost.

For myself the attraction to Kendo has lasted a long time mainly due to the depth of return Kendo offers. I see it as this being the result of a crystalization of input and improvement from the masters, over centuries. Not just a fitness regime or competitive outlet but a total approach to life.

In my opinion, from the perspective of Japan this is where Kendo differs from Judo, in the importance of it's completeness. Kendo encapsulates the most worthy values society can teach its members. So its a requirement of all school children to at least undertake an introductionary set of classes, at least thats what Ive been led to believe.

Should it become an Olympic sport, I guess as long as importance is placed on kata training a lot of the philosophy and focus of kendo will remain in tact. But to be frank, I think kendo reflects the values of Japanese culture. They are values which when taken aboard have a positive affect on the life of a kendoka.

Outside of Japan kendo is lifted into the context of it's new environment and attached values. It seems to me in the long term Kendo could lose the things that make it singularly kendo. Not to say improvements can't still be made but that the end goal is shifted. Rather than it be path of continual total self improvement it would shift to a much narrower goal of winning. The latter being a fundamental mind shift from the former, which would likely mean a reconstruction of an art as a sport. I think Kendo practised as art is far more complete, containing as it does now an important sporting componant anyway. But if it became an Olympic sport I think Kendo practiced as it is now would become a rare and exotic thing, at least outside of Japan.

In the long term Kendo, as it is now, is making steady inroads everywhere abroad. It's fantastic ! I think given more time we will see more people attracted to kendo. It offers a way to change the individual from the inside out. Do we really want to make such a fundamental change to a long term good thing ?

Apologies. That was a bit too long.

Kenshi

29th April 2002, 07:41 PM

Hi all,

I cant see how kendo could become an olympic sport without vast changes in the rules (as said before).

I compete at international level (as I am sure other people in the boards do/have) and I can say without a doubt that the rule-system that is in place at the moment will not be sufficient for en-masse non-kendoka spectators.

I am not saying that modification of shiai rules are bad, just that it could eventually lead to something else (non 'kendo-like' .. physically and morally). And once we start down that road is there anyway back???? Maybe there would have to be more than one world-wide organisation..........

Another thing to think about is - who would be involved in (dictate?) any rule changes? I bet that there would be non-kendo people in attendence. You have to think Spectator-Appeal, Advertising-Revenues, and TV-Deals.

Kendo in its current format as an olympic sport - I would prefer it not to be, but if it were i'd compete.

Kendo in a new format with modified rules as an olympic sport - I cant see how it could be done without compromising what kendo actually is and, as such, I wouldnt compete.

But, I am sure, there are much better kendoka that me involved in this issue (not hard!), so maybe they can come up with a solution that makes the sponsors, tv companies, spectators, and particiapants happy... ??

Cheers,

alexpollijr

29th April 2002, 09:11 PM

I think that what you've mentioned is also at the core of the subject. If The Powers That Be start being worried about the international mass audience and the financial return, then the whole heart of kendo is already lost.

It's not to say that it couldn't be a Olympic sport. After all , do you understand and/or watch every obnoxious sport at the Olympics? I dont. All that I know is that everyone in every olympic sport has an adidas/nike/reebok/<insert your slave-labor-made sporting product brand here> equipment.

Anyway, modern kendo fought in the WC or the Japanese Tournaments is already extra competitive with lots of waist-bending and head-bobbing and all these things. You can see why there are very very little or no jodan fighters left on both.

As long as it's still the kendo we know today, without three-stripe orange hakama, it could be an olympic sport I think.

Cheers,

Alex Polli

Kenshi

29th April 2002, 11:46 PM

If orange hakama were the only compromise I'd be happy!!

For people in japan - how big exactly (if it can be measured) is the pro-olympics kendo body?? I mean, is there are real chance of this happening soon?

The vast majority of kendoka that I know are dojo-kenshi ... I mean, they may occasionally compete, but they dont regularly and will never internationally... and this is cool. These guys comprise the vast majority of kendoka (I cant comment on japan, as I spent only a short time there). Thus, by shear scale of numbers, they will comprise the majority of kendo teachers and authorities in the future... their kendo credo will be passed onward. How would kendo as an olympic event effect these people?

And how would kendo change over the years as an olympic event ? I am not just talking about rule and equipment changes .... but modes of thought and conduct?

Can you imagine kendo without talking about Kamiizumi ise no kami, Tsukuhara Bokuden, Ono Tadaaki, Yagyu Sekishusai, Miyamoto Musashi, Kenkishi Sakikabara, Yamaoka Tesshu, Takano Sasaburo, etc etc etc instead they would be replaced with Miyazaki, Eiga, Iwasa, whoever, as ideals of kendo physicallity, rather than philosophy..... there is nothing wrong with those kendoka, of-course, its just that kendo (and budo) seems to cultivate exciting and great people after years of shugyo, not necessarily competition. Didnt even musashi say he didnt finally 'get it' until he was 50, years after he stopped duelling???

Oops, I am a kendo right-winger, and this is babble !!

What I am trying to say is : if there is the danger that kendo will get Judo-ed or Taekwondo-ed, then leave it as is : a friendly, gentlemanly pursuit, with the occasional shiai and a little bit of alcohol. People will come to kendo, why go to them?

I should be working.......... :o

JSchmidt

30th April 2002, 12:17 AM

A couple of comments:

One of my (japanese) friends, in a similar discussion pointed out that his first ever bogu had "Mizuno" in big letters on the bogu bag.
Western style fencing have also largely managed to keep, if not the brands, then the branding to a minium...it is possible to mix the two.

Secondly, to become an Olympic sport it doesnt need mass appeal. I don't know what the critical mass is, but when something like syncronized swimming manages to stay in, it can't be that much.

Jakob

Alex

30th April 2002, 11:57 AM

George,

I TOTALLY agree with your post in regards to having to change the rules to make kendo more spectator friendly for the sake of revenue. Who knows, they may have to introduce metal tipped shinai and metal mesh on the armour so that electric lights will be activated when a point is scored.....

Many things would be changed which could detract from kendo's current form. Having said that, the current form of kendo is not really that old anyway, and a very similar debate was raging a few centuries ago about the introduction of such ghastly apparatus as shinai and bogu. This, it was argued would completely corrupt the real kenjutsu into some ridiculous form of stick fighting. Things evolve with the times. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be stopped if necessary, as long as the main motives are not sentimental longings for "the way it was in the good old days." When faced with issues like this, it offers a great opportunity to reassess the whole point of doing kendo in the first place.

JSchmidt

3rd May 2002, 09:58 PM

"Who knows, they may have to introduce metal tipped shinai and metal mesh on the armour so that electric lightswill be activated when a point is scored..... "

I think that's a little unfair towards Western fencing. By far the most duels in Europe were fought to 'first blood', meaning that even the lightest contact could end a duel. I even once recall reading that the pressure required to score a point (fleuret & epee) was roughly equal to what it would take to puncture the skin.

Jakob

gszab

4th May 2002, 07:29 AM

Hi all!
I would not like kendo to be an olimpic sport, but if it will be so, I will be there.

Gszab

mingshi

5th May 2002, 10:12 AM

Hey, there's an article from the "Monthly Kendo Nippon" magazine in May/June issue concerning some view points on "Kendo is world sports" from Japan. I think it'll be interesting to read about it, but unfortunately it's impossible to get a copy...

Their offical site:
http://www.skijournal.co.jp/kendo/index.html

don_lubo

6th May 2002, 02:17 AM

I think that the kendo in Olympic games is one big mistake!
Kendo is not a sport it is a material art!!!

damocles

6th May 2002, 09:37 AM

I don't think kendo should be an olympic sport. Why? I'm not worried about changes in the dynamics of technique... well maybe. What I am more worried about is the loss of spirit. It has been mentioned that tae kwon do was made into a farce of itself at the olympics. I imagine tsuki would be removed as a target area.

However, I would compete, or at least try-out, if it were added to the Olympic lineup. Just to test my skill and training on the world stage. And I do mean skill, not dodging/bobbing/. ;)

Alex

7th May 2002, 11:44 PM

"I think that's a little unfair towards Western fencing. By far the most duels in Europe were fought to 'first blood', meaning that even the lightest contact could end a duel. I even once recall reading that the pressure required to score a point (fleuret & epee) was roughly equal to what it would take to puncture the skin."

Indeed, the electricity option is viable in fencing, as all is required is a touch of the skin with the blade, as you point out. Kendo points however, are based on the technique having been executed with ki-ken-tai-itchi under certain conditions that are not obvious to the untrained eye. A mere touch with the blade in kendo is not sufficient. However, this aspect of kendo makes it very difficult to follow for people who are not versed in the ways of ki-ken-tai-itchi, and all the elements that have to be present in a strike to make it valid.

One important aspect of any Olympic sport is its accessibility to spectators who do not actually participate in the sport. If kendo were to become an Olympic sport, issues such as the difficulty in judging or understanding ippon would have to be overcome with rule changes. One of the forseeable changes would be the simplification of what constitutes or is judged as a point. Hence, it is possible that electrical devices such as those used in fencing would be considered to aid in its "followability". This would be totally inappropriate as ki-ken-tai-itchi, and striking the correct target area with the correct part of the shinai, zanshin and so on contains the essence of what kendo is all about, and must be retained at all cost, even if this means casual observers have absolutely no idea of what is going on.

This is what I meant by "Who knows, they may have to introduce metal tipped shinai and metal mesh on the armour so that electric lights will be activated when a point is scored.....":) I wasn't taking a dig at fencing.

lapu-lapu

9th May 2002, 08:52 AM

Kendo in the Olympics?!, absolutely not! Keep it the way it is, as its own entity.

JSchmidt

9th May 2002, 09:12 AM

Hehe..sorry I jumped on you;
To continue the fencing story, there has actually been talk about *dropping* fencing as an Olympic sport, due to it's incomprehensibility. (It's so fast that most people can't see what's going on). It's a lot of movement, followed by a light going off. Sabre, after electronic hit-detection was introduced, apperantly had to introduce attack-rules similar to foil. (You have to signal an attack first by straighting your arm, for it to count, although a parry and counter attack will count)...So even fencing got it's problems with technology (and the Olympics).
I suppose with todays technology, you could have a floor measuring the fumi-komi and comparing it to the strike (Add voice-recognition software to measure the kiah) and you could detect points electronicly :D

Cheers,

Jakob
www.hizen.org

Antonin

9th May 2002, 08:42 PM

Hello everyone,
First, my stone in the dabate: I don't think kendo should be an olympic sport. First, it's not a sport, it's a martial art. Of course, shiai is a part of kendo but, in my opinion, it is minor part of the practice. Kendo in the olympics would be almost as useless as iaido competitions... Second, the olympic ideal is all but dead, I'm afraid. What would be gained by kendo to become an olympic discipline ? As kendoka, we must ask: how would it help us understand our practice better? Not sure it'd help. If it is TV recognition people are after, then I'm afraid their whole kendo ethos is flawed: are we not supposed to supress our ego ?
This being said, if it were to become an olympic discipline, I don't think the practicalities of kendo need to be changed that much... After all, there are some seriously arcane disciplines involved in the olympics. Take fencing. Most people have no idea what is going on, especialy with the foil.... All the horse jumping things are well are tricky to understand for the uninitiated eye. Walking ? how many of us are stuck for an explanation when one of those funny-walking competitors are disqualified ? So I suppose the particularities of kendo techniques could be sucessfully explained by a qualified comentator (BTW: great job if we can get it ! :D ).
So, the bottom line is : I am opposed to it because it is not what kendo is about, but I think that if it was done, it would work.
Cheers,
A.

mingshi

13th May 2002, 10:06 AM

Mena-san,

Thanks for this very interesting thread. A lot of questions on "olympic-izing" Kendo. But everyone seems to have different definitions on these terms: (as to sum up)

internationalize/globalize Kendo = Olympic Kendo??
-- making Kendo as international sports will make it more appealing as well? more people practising? more sponsors? more merchandising?

Olympic Kendo vs Sports Kendo
--Is it really that when a martial arts became an olympic event, everything relating to its root will vanish? A while ago when Beijing got the 2008 Olympic host...thing, there were rumors saying the Chinese will make Wushu (don't remember which one, but certainly not Taichi pushing hands!) an event. Do you think that's impossible? Many of the chinese martial arts are like Iai --one man show, a display of aesthetic...whatever, somewhat like gymnastic. No striking points.
--You can't cheat on electric devices, but you can cheat on judges! People complained about judges giving points for poor cuts as well. Poor cuts on area just beyond protection: men-gane, armpits etc. You can feel it but judges cannot. Poor cuts without zanshin. And judges cannot say anything when your cut is avoided by tilting head. You can't complain because the are judges! One rule I want them to change is that, I really want people to get some hansoku if they hit my ribs again....

Sports Kendo vs Traditional Kendo
--Yeah Alex, there's no Traditional Kendo, only Kenjutsu. Modern kendo IS about getting the point. If it's still only a martial arts, then you should be able to do cuts on people's necks and knees, as most koryu will do. Why do you think Kendo exists in the first place? No Imperialism, sports only. Even the recent generation of Kendoka in Japan... as you guys suggested-- dodging/bobbing. If you want "traditional"... fight the old school with agressive tai-atari that throws you off the ground!

*these idea came up my mind after reading a Japanese forum on the same issue, "Internationalizing Kendo": http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs2/98968505859375.html*

samurai999

31st May 2002, 11:50 AM

I voted yes, but conditionally. I want this art to be globally recognized, but on the other hand, I don't want to see this martial art turned into a franchised sport. I also don't want this art turned into a tech sport either.

A couple of things that would make me cringe if this was turned into a sport is probably instant replay, Nike and Reebok ultra-light gis, and Addidas carbon fiber shinai with some auto gyro balancing mechanism. I don't mind using technology to make the sport a bit safer(ie Hasegawa poly-carbonate men), but I don't want technology enhancing the abilities of the kenshi. Sorry, I might be going a bit overboard here, but hey, it could happen. I want Kendo to stay the way it is... As an art first and sport second.

Tim

qpuppy

31st May 2002, 08:20 PM

I voted no!!!!
I am against the introduction to Kendo as an Olympic sports. We have the World Championship already. Even though it feels great representing your own country in Kendo or any other sports, but Kendo is not just a sport, from my own option, I dont think the world is ready for kendo yet if it is going to be introduced as an Olympic sport.
Look what happened to Taekwondo and Judo. It is an self defence art, yet also a sport. But now must people see it more as a sport. This is why I dont want Kendo to be in the Olympic. It is an Art for the mind and the body-with the advantages of having fun like shiais, Not a sport with the possible use of an Art!!!!!

Achilles

1st June 2002, 04:42 AM

I am on the opposite side of the fence from Samurai999.

I WANT to see kendo enfranchised as a modern sport with the metaphysical aspects severely toned down (I honestly think much of it is hooey anyway).

I think that much of the resistance to its being adopted in the olympics is due to Japanese resistance to the notion that this sport (notice I say SPORT and NOT martial art) belongs to the world now, and not just to Japan.

damocles

1st June 2002, 02:08 PM

bah. I will ramble. :p

The day I see a senior citizen basketballer staring down a Dream Team member and preventing him from taking a shot is the day I agree that Kendo is wholey or largely a sport with no spiritual and mental aspects.

how many olympic sports have those in 60+ participating and still being capable of wiping the floor with younger opponents. Such as that in kendo?

The training is in the strength of the mind, not the body.

Shiai, even on the world stage, should be about testing of skill and fortitude.

That's not to say that Kendo is not wholly a martial art either. It has sport-like qualities, i agree. Scoring in itself is in the realms of sport. Though if scoring were the only objective, without the spirit that is required, I don't know that I would participate. Just because it is not soley in the hands of the Japanese, does not mean that it's heritage should be forgotten. That, I believe is what the Higher ups of the ZNKR wish to avoid, and thus control the propogation of Kendo through such an unstable medium as the Games.

Anyway, Kendo is both a sport and an art, which is where its appeal is. I don't think that this should be forgotten whether or not it is included in the Olympics.

ben

26th June 2002, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Achilles
I am on the opposite side of the fence from Samurai999.

I WANT to see kendo enfranchised as a modern sport with the metaphysical aspects severely toned down (I honestly think much of it is hooey anyway).

I think that much of the resistance to its being adopted in the olympics is due to Japanese resistance to the notion that this sport (notice I say SPORT and NOT martial art) belongs to the world now, and not just to Japan.

Hi Achilles,

This is a very interesting and refreshing opinion. It is good to have a variety of views.

However I think it is a little misguided. I noticed on your site you have an interview with Sensei Jeff Marsten. I don't know Sensei at all but I did read his article in KW 2 and am impressed with his attitude, focus and level of achievement.

All of which makes it harder for me to understand his remarks in the interview. He says he doesn't object to kendo being in the Olympics because: "I don't feel the 'sport' aspect can be any worse than it is".

This is a troubling statement from a 7 dan. Troubling because it shows great naivety in the face of the judo and TKD experiences with the Olympics (TKD has had to split into two governing bodies to accommodate the shift in emphasis). Troubling because it also evidences a high level of dissatisfaction (almost resignation) on Sensei's part with the state of kendo today.

He then goes on to say how troubled he is by "clueless individuals" teaching martial arts "in strip malls" with little or no knowledge of martial arts and tradition. Surely this is one potential consequence of kendo increasing its involvement in the mainstream sporting environment.

I reply to these comments not because I think they're destructive, but because I think their internal logic is inconsistent, and because they are attributed to such a senior kendo practitioner.

As I said before though, in everything else I've read by or about Sensei Marsten I have found nothing but true insight and committment to kendo's highest ideals.

One other thing. You speculate above that maybe the resistance to Olympic inclusion of kendo by the Japanese is because they don't want to admit that kendo belongs to the world now. In reply I would pose the question, who else but the Japanese have propagated kendo around the world? The IKF is very proactive in establishing kendo in non-kendo countries (e.g. Senegal), supporting it in new kendo countries (e.g. Romania) and nurturing it in all others (e.g. The International Kendo Leaders' Seminar in Kitamoto every year). So I think the Japanese very much want kendo to belong to the whole world.

Thanks for giving your views. They have helped me clarify some of my own. I also know from experience that very often those who question a thing loudest in the beginning, in the end become its most powerful advocates.

Ganbarimasho.

b

Alex

26th June 2002, 06:31 PM

Ben,

What interview are you referring to???:confused:
somebody please post a link...

By the way, check out the upcoming issue #3 for an insight into who else is propagating kendo around the world...

Achilles

26th June 2002, 08:49 PM

Alex,

You can find the interview at my old website at http://www.battlecircle.org.

I originally launched the site as a community of swordsmen to exchange ideas, challenges and advice online. Unfortunately, the "community" turned out to be just me, nobody wanted to contribute articles, dojocam shots, etc. . . (though the forums were quite active), so I stopped updating it.

Just don't believe the bio. info. on me, it's WAY out of date. I've since cut my hair, advanced a great deal in the SCA, earned 1-dan in AUSKF Kendo, and 3-khup in KKF Kumdo.

The interview is under the features section.

Bane

20th October 2003, 07:31 PM

Berserker

3rd November 2003, 02:00 AM

There is a rather heated debate here already, but to clarify the way fencing is treated, because it does have a history as well... (and in a few points because i know people do not like reading babble...)

-there are in fact 3 weapons in fencing; two point weapons and one edge weapon...
foil and epee (point weapons) have different wieghts on the button - so you need a reasonable ammount of force to set them off. Foil evolved from a training weapon - we shall ignore it.
-epee on the other hand evolved in france as a reaction to foil fencing. The reason the tip is rigged with the spring behind the button that it is, is because that is all it needs. What someone wrote about the "first blood" idea is correct, but remember that to kill someone, an epee blade (tradditional epee) needs to be prodded 3cm into the torso. Anywhere on the torso, and they are out of the fight. For those of you who have never fenced, you have to make a "good" hit, with a good direction in the hit, otherwise it does not work. (In addition it has to remain in contact held down for a set time before it goes off).

Sabre fencing, when it was first electrified, was done on how hard a point was scored.

Conclusions:
Systems can be more complicated than just completing a circuit. IT might be quite possible to rig up a system where the bending of a shinai was measured, as well as hitting the target and completing a circuit. Fencing is experimentation at the moment with wireless lamee jackets. THE ELECTRIFICATION EQUIPMENT MIGHT NOT BE INTRUSIVE, and within set peramiters, it might even make the refereeing fairer.

- Some of you (aimed at the UK) might have noticed that Kendo is a very small community. Why? Not because it isnt fun, but because noone has heard of it. I did not myself till an article was published in a fencing magasine.

-What we should ask, is "is it possible for kendo to be an olympic sport?" and if yes, in terms of equipment, in terms of organisation, in terms of it being accepted by the olympic governing bodies, then we should ask ourselves again. The attitute that it isnt possible, so we should not experiment, is not helpful. Shinai kendo was itself once an unthinkable novelty, and i for one would welcome increased publicity.

Fantasia

3rd November 2003, 02:45 AM

Here's a question...

How many people do you think really understand curling? (Or watch it for that matter)

There's another sport with a huuuuuuge amount of etiquette about who talks to whom, who steps on the ice first, what you say to your opponents, and who buys whom a beer after the game is over, and being in the olympics hasn't changed that.

It's also a sport that people devote their lives to, and many of the best players are older folks, but I must admit I'd find it hard to imagine curling actually being a way of life.

To olympicize or not to olympicize, it's an interesting question.

I must admit tho, a lot of the arguments AGAINST allowing kendo to become an olympic sport sound just like the sort of elitist whining that comes from the early beta testers of an online game. They want to keep their small, close-knit community because they believe letting the "rabble" into the society will ruin it, which is what I'm hearing a lot of in this discussion. They don't want to see any changes because the game is already just the way they like it, and they understand how it works.

I haven't come to a final decision, but I want to ask you to consider this:

If olympicizing kendo would require some changes to the rules/structure of kendo, would those changes ONLY affect kendo as an olympic sport? Would the rest of "traditional" kendo continue as it has, unruffled by the storm, or would all kendo start teaching the "new" way?

midnightdawn

3rd November 2003, 08:15 PM

For those of you still reading comments on this thread, ^_^, here is my opinion:

No, it shouldn't be an olympic sport.

In Kendo one of the first things I was taught was that the shinai should be treated like a real sword, and that it is an extention of yourself. To almost all that participate in Kendo, your shinai is a big part or you.

To have Kendo publicized on TV, i think would bring world interest to Kendo, which is good, but all at the same time, you would have people marketing cheaply made shinais for most people to just screw around with. Kendo isn't basketball or football, you get the piece of equipment and play a game with your friends. It bugs me at anime conventions enough when people buy the toy shinais and the just treat them like crap.

Also, somebody mentioned earier that this would open up the market for more bogu manufactuers. But the problem there is that most of the new stuff that would roll out would be very cheaply made, so it could be sold at a cheap cost to those people who just want to screw around with the equpiment.

There are some good points to Kendo being in the Olympics, but they are far outweighed by the bad points.

tnagpal

4th November 2003, 04:24 AM

I must admit tho, a lot of the arguments AGAINST allowing kendo to become an olympic sport sound just like the sort of elitist whining that comes from the early beta testers of an online game. They want to keep their small, close-knit community because they believe letting the "rabble" into the society will ruin it, which is what I'm hearing a lot of in this discussion. They don't want to see any changes because the game is already just the way they like it, and they understand how it works.

Why is it elitist to want to belong to a small close-knit community? It isn't about keeping others out in particular but belonging to something a little bit special and out of the ordinary. I say let people who are interested in kendo come to it naturally.

The last thing I want to see is bogu have Nike swooshes on the sides and commercials with champion kendoka hawking Gatorade.

I also find it more elitist when people insist that kendo is no longer Japanese. As if they are the ultimate arbitrators of what kendo is all about. Watch the hachi-dan test and you can see that they are grading not so much on technique which all of the nanadan kendoka have, but a display of the deepest principles of kendo. There is even a written test about some of these aspects.

Fantasia

4th November 2003, 10:33 AM

Why is it elitist to want to belong to a small close-knit community?

That's the very definition of elitist.

Now it's up to individuals to determine whether that elitism is bad or not of course, some things have to be elite. Can you imagine what the Navy SEALS or the Green Berets would be like if they let anyone in?

Anyways, elitism isn't bad or good, it's just a definition.

Shazzanzzz

4th November 2003, 03:56 PM

I don't see why kendo shouldn't be an olympic sport either. How would Olympic kendo be any different from wkc?

But then again, i don't see kendo in olympics be necessary anyways because we have wkc already.

I mean, people obviously care about world cup soccer more than olympics soccer, to be honest, i'm not even sure there is olympics soccer, hehe, pretty sure there is...

Also, look at what olympics had done for basketball. Basketball has improved so much because of the international players. Without them, no one would know how to shoot, and all NBA players would do is iso plays in every single possession. Also, i think the basketball culture has improved because of the international influence.

But, kendo is different from basketball though. I don't know. I'll leave this to much more qualfied people to decide. This is just what i think about the matter.

Mr.Tvola

10th November 2003, 09:58 PM

I noticed this thread too late to vote :-) But anyway:

Well, if olympic Kendo tournament would follow the same rules as WKC or EKC, then YES. It may attract new people to Kendo and in the end I would help a lot. But if this would mean changes of rules, orange keikogi with ads on it, electrical kiai-o-meter recognising valid points etc. definitely NO. If there was such tournament I would boycot it.

I see main threat in this: IKF seems to be ignoring this debate. The Olympic-Kendo may emerge without IKF and this may split world kendo into "IKF Kendo" and "Olympic Kendo". And guess which one will get all govermental funding and sponsor's attention in all the countries ...

fukkenlazy

15th November 2003, 03:59 AM

Sad to say, but KENDO have a great commercial potential so it would be good to bring into olympic, but I dont want kendo to end up a competitive sport than martial arts, or having small wannabe dojo across the world like karate. No for olympic.

nodachi

15th November 2003, 08:10 AM

I kinda agree that seeing kendo grow would be cool, but I definitely agree that seeing it desolve into just a sport would be bad. However, returning to the specific question:

Would you want to compete if kendo was an Olympic sport?

I would want to compete. IF it became an Olympic sport, it would be the responsibility of those of us who practice serious kendo who want it to be treated with respect and not desolve into "the sticking fighting sport" to show the rest of the world what kendo really is. I am thinking along the lines of if you want to preserve the integrity of kendo, you are gonna have to take an active role in that should it come to pass that it become Olympic.

Mr.Tvola

15th November 2003, 08:10 AM

Sad to say, but KENDO have a great commercial potential ....

Well I don't think so. Hardly, when every non-kendoka can't really see what is going on, why the refs make this a point and that not.

Believe me, I have seen it before, people who don't practice Kendo will get bored soon watching a Kendo match, just because they don't understand it (and without some deeper knowledge of Kendo, you can get only by practicing it for a while, they can't - e.g. what is zanshin).

There won't much of a advertising or whatever for a "boring" olympic sport. This move would definitely require some change of rules in order the spectators could understand it (lets start with the referee commands in Japanese and end with that electronic point-measuring device) - and I don't like this one.

Fantasia

15th November 2003, 12:31 PM

Well I don't think so. Hardly, when every non-kendoka can't really see what is going on, why the refs make this a point and that not.

Believe me, I have seen it before, people who don't practice Kendo will get bored soon watching a Kendo match, just because they don't understand it (and without some deeper knowledge of Kendo, you can get only by practicing it for a while, they can't - e.g. what is zanshin).

That all applies to curling too, which has been an olympic sport for a while now.

Mr.Tvola

15th November 2003, 07:57 PM

That all applies to curling too, which has been an olympic sport for a while now.

I disagree - in curling it is quite obvious why someone wins (i think the point is to get close to the center - anyway it is much more simple to understand), in Kendo spectators see like 10 hits but only 1 is ippon, and they have no idea why. And reading some rules won't help much, thing like zanshin and kiai (which are essential for ippon) are very difficult to explain to a non-kendoka, they will more likely watch some different sport, than going through some instruction seminar.

kohai

17th November 2003, 10:08 AM

As a kendo player I went to a couple of events at the last Olympics and Taekwondo and Fencing scoring seemed pretty random to me (a very uneducated spectator!) but i still really enjoyed watching and learning. It was also great to chat to the other enthusiastic novices around me as we tried to work out what was going on. I am so glad i went and cheered for competitors I had never heard of, from countries far from my own!

When i first started kendo, I didn't really understand what points scored etc. (hey, most people whose matches i shimpan would probably be very justified in saying I still don't!) but i still found it completely absorbing. The tension in a high level kendo match is so palpable to everyone in the room, you can't help but be drawn into the match and get an instinctive understanding of the battle of wills being fought. I have also had many friends and relatives watching international tournaments and it's amazing how much people can learn and understand for themselves.

It may be an Australian thing (we are slightly sports mad in this country) but there is always a fascination with the contest of any sport.

One of the great things about the Sydney Olympics was that people found themselves learning about new sports all the time and appreciating the different skills and interests of people all around the world.

I think kendo would get enormous support as an Olympic event...

Whether the kendo community would be prepared to accept all the changes that would come with Olympic admission (and there will inevitably be some good, some bad) is another question altogether. But don't dismiss kendo as uninteresting to those on the outer. How else did any of us get into it if not because we found it interesting in some way before we understood anything about it??

aru-ma

17th November 2003, 12:10 PM

Although I generaly disagree that kendo should be in the olympics I can see one point that I might agree on, puting all the comercial values of the olympics aside for a moment, the WKC is an IKF exclusive event, surprisingly enough there are other countries that do kendo but are not part of the IKF for various reason, if kendo was an olympic event these countries may have a chance on competing on a world level although some people may see WKC as a bigger event.

Simon

18th November 2003, 01:20 AM

Mr.Tvola

18th November 2003, 04:26 AM

Regarding the general dislike for the electronic scoring.

I don't see why it is bad.

I see that having it viewable to the audience is not really in keeping with the element of judgement used by the judges as to whether the zanshin etc qualifies the strike as a cut.

But why couldn't the judges have a wireless transmitter in the flags that buzzes when a shinai strikes a valid target with enough force? The judge then doesn't have to make decisions which are fairly trivial (whether the target was hit etc) and instead can concentrate on the more important aspects of scoring.

Of course a judge can still give a point even if the flag doesn't buzz, for example if the receiving person is ducking about and the judge is just damn sick of it ;)

It's not really an either or question more of using technology to enhance the values of the art.

Buzzing flag :-)) This is funny :-)) But seriously, even if it would pass with the Kendo community (which I doubt), can you imagine how complicated would be this device? And expensive? Have you any idea, how much does similar device used in fencing cost ? (MUCH :bored: ) It would not be used only because of that (although it is probably possible do create such thing). Current Kendo equipment is expensive already. I also think this device might make referees dependant on it, making them ignore other aspects of correct ippon and only a hiting correct place would be sufficient for them. Just like in modern fencing, I guess. But I see the funny image of a shimpans with their flags buzzing and shaking their hands :-)))

litige

22nd February 2004, 06:09 AM

aru-ma

22nd February 2004, 01:24 PM

there are many factors why kendo won't be in the olympics soon.

2. What's the purpose of an olympic event where it's always the same country that will win it for years?
3. Not enough qualified teachers to teach all around the world
5. There is already the WKC, and it's already a world competition

If you got some points on why it could be in the olympics,I would like to read.

I find these point to be flawed.

2. the US has been winning olympics basketball for the past 4 olympics at least

3. There are enough qualified teacher around the world or else there wouldn't be a WKC

5. as football/soccer has it's world cup

Karaken

22nd February 2004, 01:58 PM

there are many factors why kendo won't be in the olympics soon.

1. Not enough people doing it.
2. What's the purpose of an olympic event where it's always the same country that will win it for years?
3. Not enough qualified teachers to teach all around the world
4. Too much opposition to it
5. There is already the WKC, and it's already a world competition
6. Many other thing i can't of.

If you got some points on why it could be in the olympics,I would like to read.

All these apply to Tae Kwon Do and Judo - Yet they are part of Olympics and they are no longer dominated by Koreans or Japanese ( Initially Yes but no longer ).. If there are reasons, these are't it..

Center..

nodachi

22nd February 2004, 11:36 PM

Regardless of whether or not there are enough qualified instructors of kendo around the world, if kendo hit the Olympics, other countries would find ways to recruit, hire, or pay to ship over qualified sensei if they could (at least for occassional visits if not permanently). Winning the Olympics is a big deal to people so someone, whether it is a rich, patriotic person, or the government itself, would spend the money to bring in good instructors.

litige

23rd February 2004, 12:58 AM

5. as football/soccer has it's world cup

Then what's the point of being in the olympics?

also Kendo have not enough followers the world and there's not enough country to compete.

Would you like to participate in an event that has bridge in it?

litige

23rd February 2004, 01:02 AM

"According to the Olympic Charter, established by Pierre de Coubertin, the goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play."

Sheesh, what about mothers crying to their son "kill him" ???

samurai999

23rd February 2004, 04:02 AM

Although the Olympic moniker(sp?) has been to do sport in order to increase friendships, display the character of the competitors, etc, all I see recently is the scandal (ie the Balco, and the bribery scandal) and the exploitation of the Olympics to make money for the likes of Addidas, Nike, Reebok, etc.

Although kendo does produce some business in terms of bogu-ya, I just don't want kendo to lose the "spiritual" aspects. In other words, I just don't want it to become a sport where the competitors are blinded by the visions of glory or money. This sorta leads to "win at any cost" scenario. Although you want to win at kendo whenever you enter a tournament (we don't go to lose right?), we want to gain something from each tournament win or loss.

To me, its all about improving yourself by taking your medicine and learning off of that. Not enhancing your physical abilites to make yourself better.

My 0.02$(US) for all its worth.
Tim

Hai_hai

23rd February 2004, 10:31 PM

If kendo were to become an Olympic sport, I would compete for my country.

The problem is that kendo is not a sport. The shiai aspect of kendo can become a sport. Shiai has all the aspect of a competitive sport, scoring, judges, rules, competitors, teams, etc.
I think that it can become a sport for 2 reasons. 1. it has elements of strength, speed, finesse and power like boxing or Western fencing. 2. it has elements of form like figure skating and gymnastics where sloppy form counts against you. The odd thing is the combination of the two. A non-kendo spectator would wonder why a hit was not counted as valid because of bad form, or lack of zanshin when it "appeared" that the shinai clearly hit the men. When the second element of form is removed, that's when kendo isn't kendo.

George Brown

14th March 2004, 02:03 PM

Hmmmm - now I've not trained for a number of years now - so (flame suit on) I may it may not be appropriate for me to comment.......but :

Kendo entering the Olympics -- is there a risk of half (or quarter) points regarding competition 'points'?

Personally from my own perspective (and I'm only Shodan Kendo - practiced for about 11years before dropping out) - either the technique worked (full point) or it didn't (no points).

What do others think?

forbidden

14th March 2004, 10:03 PM

Interesting post.

If the IKF is ignoring the subject, its not very likely to be a sport in the Olympics.

I just started doing Kendo a few months ago, so my vote here shouldnt be taken into too much consideration.

Im not sure how the "team" championships work (i would appreciate if someone would enlighten me about this) but if it is based on "singel elimination" then this is the only rule i see is necessary to change.
In the olympics everybody should have at least 3 fights to qualify for the elimination step of the tournament... so mr.dude from Norway (just an example) wouldn't come and be kicked out of the olympics after 45 secs competing.

Apart from this i think the referees do a good job as it is today, and i dont see why this has to change.

I do hate the idea of sponsors ( which is absolutely necessary in the olypmics to fund it ) with a huge NIKE on your Hakama :p however... im sure that wouldnt be what stop the idea... rather the fundamental basics of kendo.

I would vote "yes" if it will be "just another international championship" to compete in, but "no" if it will change and split the sport.

I know Japan would keep winning the olympics for years and years, but then i would be glad to learn from that experience and we had a goal to work against *bows*
And after the sport had been more "known" and more people would start competing, gear would be cheaper and more dojos would probably open. I think that would be good for kendo.

I trained Kung fu for years, and until recently i didnt even KNOW there was a Kendo klubb in Bergen (Norway) where i live...
(and now im really excited about it, and i train basically every day, working on my basics)

The biggest problem for this whole idea is that there arent very many people training kendo ( i think...) but hopefully this change. (hopefully if the fundamental mental basics in kendo wont change )

Ø.Nilsen

itachi

16th March 2004, 11:00 AM

I think kendoists would train alot harder to become the best, to represent their country. Olympic would be a goal to them, something that would motivate them for training 150% of their capabilities, pushing them to new levels. Isn't that what all kendoist wishes to achieve? To be able to have fun and be determined at the same time. However, there are many unfortunate factors of it becoming in the olympic............ nike hakama.......

In conclusion, I have no idea :confused2

xvikingx

16th March 2004, 01:34 PM

Jarlaxle

24th March 2004, 01:17 AM

If we say yes...Then kendo will lost "Ki-ken-tai" even "Kiai",coz it will turn into fencing where the point is just touching the target which electronically linked to score board.

No way__

tokon

14th April 2004, 07:52 AM

it´s an interesting question for the whole kendo community, which has to be answered!
do we really want becoming kendo olympic?
I really don´t want that development!

practising kendo is not only learning and training techniques. it´s more than this. kendo is a lifelong path! it´s a leaving way of developing oneself mentally and ethically either. a way of transforming oneself to a new way of being psychologically.

my fear of that possible development of kendo is the probably concision of the path ... a drastic limitation to the technique! it would not be kendo anymore, it would transform to ken-jutsu. the same changes like karate or judo. I don´t want see "winners" jumping around while rasing their hands. that´s not the way of kendo.
I don´t want to have influence on kendo by the IOC based only on financial considerations or loss of total of attendances.

well it´s enticing to participate olympic games and maybe winning a gold medal, but that´s only filthy lucre.
I don´t share that wish of the gumdo community. I go to such lengths to say, if World Gumdo Association wants to become kendo/gumdo olympic, they have to think about still being a member of IKF. They have different goals. so why not resigning from IKF. a member who doesn´t achieve the same goals of IKF, doesn´t need to be part of it!

It´s a hard statement, and hopefully not only my opinion