Feedback needed on diagram please!

[ben]

I contructed this diagram to help myself visualise the different timing concepts in kendo. I have checked it as far as I am able to, so if anyone has any feedback or corrections they would be gratefully received! I am more than happy for people to copy it and use it as a resource if it is found to be correct or once it has been corrected. I'm sure it will start some discussion whatever happens. Let me know what you think.

b :)

http://img149.exs.cx/img149/2472/timingdiagram.jpg

[ben spain]

Looks pretty damn good to me. I am a noob so not sure on the wazas but the diagram is very clear, well laid out and to be honest looks cool!

[Andoru]

Ben - that is one bloody good diagram!!

[Lloromannic]

Maybe it would be good to add ai-uchi waza in Okosu no tokoro

[ben]

Of course! [slaps forehead] Thanks Lloro! Exactly why I posted here. I'll collect everyone's comments and repost a version 2.

b

[DCPan]

Hi Ben,

There is a similar diagram in "Nito-Ryu no Waza to Riron".

I'll check it when I get home.

BTW, I mention the above book because it changes the explanation of sen to "when you take the center".

FWIW.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I believe the three timings are sen no sen, sen sen no sen and go no sen.

[DCPan]

I believe the three timings are sen no sen, sen sen no sen and go no sen.

Really depends on "who's" mittsu-no-sen you are talking about. Below is copied from the STUDY GUIDE FOR KENDO PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATION from Kendo USA website.


Mittsu-no-sen or the three attacks. According to Miyamoto Musashi there are three sen:

-Ken-no-Sen, you attack just before the opponent.

-Tai-no-Sen, the opponent attacks first but you strike first and win.

-Tai-Tai-no-Sen, both attack at the same time but your cut is first and wins.

Takano Sasaburo explained the mittsu-no-sen as:

-Sensen-no-sen or kakari-no-sen: to use seme and then strike the opponent just before he moves when their mind has committed to attack.

-Go-no-Sen or Sengo-no-sen or Tai-no-sen: when the opponent has started their technique but the action is not completed. Move effectively avoiding their cut and strike yourself.

-Sen or Senzen-no-Sen: when the opponent is in mid-attack deflect it and counter attack.

If you study the strategy of the kata you gain an understanding of mittsu-no-sen.

[Paburo]

ben, what is oikomi? perhaps this is the first time i've heard this term...

[mingshi]

uhmm what's the kanji for all these terms (or did you just make it up :devious: )?

[DCPan]

ben, what is oikomi? perhaps this is the first time i've heard this term...

I believe Oikomi is chasing the opponent down...such as in a situation where the opponent did a hiki-waza on you.

[ben]

uhmm what's the kanji for all these terms (or did you just make it up :devious: )?

I'm going on the 1996 edition of the ZNKR's Japanese-English Kendo Dictionary, pp 69-70, The Australian Kendo Renmei/NCAS Level One Coaching Course Manual, "This is Kendo" by Sasamori and Warner, and personal communication with Nagae Sumitaka sensei (Kyoshi 7 dan). I don't have a Japanese character set so can't write them for you here.

b

[xorandor]

I'm very new to kendo (only 2 months of practice so far), and I struggle to make sense of the drawings. Is there supposed to be some connection between the stick-men and the descriptions (because i'm really not getting it...)

[Trout]

I'm very new to kendo (only 2 months of practice so far), and I struggle to make sense of the drawings. Is there supposed to be some connection between the stick-men and the descriptions (because i'm really not getting it...)Xorander - I'm pretty new to kendo myself. My understanding of the diagram is that it is showing the different stages of an opponents attack - at each stage the grey shinai is where it was at the previous stage and the black shinai is where it is in the current stage. Each of these stages are potentially where you could initiate an attack/counter yourself and the text describes the possible techniques you could apply at the various stages.

Hope I have understood the diagram correctly, and also hope it makes things clearer to you (assuming I am right!)

Cheers

PS Ben - really like the diagram (again, assuming I have read it right!)

[Nanbanjin]

uhmm what's the kanji for all these terms (or did you just make it up :devious: )?
This is all a bit confused even in Japanese. Maybe the following will help.


８・ 三つの先


先とは機先を制することで、ことに剣道においては機先を制することが、大切である。
これに三つの場合があり、先々の先、先、後の先である。

（1）先々の先
相手の起りの気を早く察知して、直ちに打ち込み、機先を制するのであって、
相手が動作を起こさない前に、相手の先に先じて、直ちに打つ先である。
未だ声もなく形なきにこれを察知し、自分から形にあらわして懸かりゆく
ものであるから、懸かりの先ともいう。

（2）先
隙を認め相手より打ち込んでくるのを、相手の先を取って勝つのである。
即ち摺り上げ、応じ返し、体をかわして引き外しなどして、
自分が先になって勝つのである。相手からも懸かり、相対抗して勝つので
「対の先」または「先前の先」ともいう。

（3）後の先
隙を認めて相手から打ち込んでこるのを切り落とし、太刀をしのぎなどして、
相手の気勢のゆるむところを、強く打ち込んで勝つのをいう。
故に「待の先」または「先後の先」ともいう。



Mitsu-no-sen

"Sen" is to seize the initiative, and this concept if particularly important when it comes to kendo.
There are three "sen" situations; "sen-sen-no-sen", "sen" and "go-no-sen".

(1) Sen-sen-no-sen
This is to watch for the opponent's intention of hitting and seize initiative by hitting straight away. For this "sen" you should hit straight away before the opponent has begun to move. You need to be able to read this before the movement has been formed and manifest "sen" in your own movements by attacking. because of this this "sen" is also called "kakari-no-sen".

(2) Sen
In this "sen" you recognise the opening in the opponent and win by hitting first as the opponent comes forward to hit you. In other words you use suri-age, ohji-kaeshi, avoid the opponent with your body movement etc to win by taking the initiative and putting yourself in a position of advantage. In this case you and your opponent attack together so this "sen" is also called "tai-no-sen" or "sen-zen-no-sen".

(3) Go-no-sen
Recognise the opponent's opening, endure the opponent's attack and hit strongly at the point where the opponent's momentum has been spent.
Therefore this "sen" is also called ( 待の先 - I'm not sure whether this should be "tai-no-sen" or "machi-no-sen"; I think probably the former) or "Sen-go-no-sen".


Loose translation. Please refer here (http://www.ne.jp/asahi/aaa/tagi2/gakka/yodan.htm) for the original.

Another explanation is here (http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/n-onihei/mametisiki/gakkabun.htm)

You might also find the discussion on Ichinikai (http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs2/951690673828125.html) to be of interest.

[Paburo]

I believe Oikomi is chasing the opponent down...such as in a situation where the opponent did a hiki-waza on you.

i dont get it... if the opponent 'did' the hiki waza on you and hit you already, then you already missed the opportunity to strike?

[DCPan]

i dont get it... if the opponent 'did' the hiki waza on you and hit you already, then you already missed the opportunity to strike?

Not neccessarily.

First, the opponent isn't necessarily successful in striking you.

Second, even if the strike connected, if you can hit him back, there isn't enough zanshin on his part.

[Nanbanjin]

If your opponent scores a successful hiki-waza you should still try and chase them down.

[Paburo]

Not neccessarily.

First, the opponent isn't necessarily successful in striking you.

Second, even if the strike connected, if you can hit him back, there isn't enough zanshin on his part.
i know that, what i meant is: in any case you already missed his 'attack' and the opportunity to strike 'within' that attack.

mitsu no sen includes follow up (after)attacks then?

[DCPan]

i know that, what i meant is: in any case you already missed his 'attack' and the opportunity to strike 'within' that attack.

I believe I understood your objection. The problem is the running together of phrases, as the western fencers would say.

Well, that's part of the imperfection of the "scoring" system.

By the your logic, you wouldn't take any points where the opponent try to hit you and rush past you, and you hit him on his turnaround either?

I suppose if you want to be a riai fanatic, you could call yame everytime contact is made, and make the contestants reset after every potential point, successfully made or not...but that makes for a very discontinuous match....

Honestly, at my level, I am just focusing on striking whatever opportunity is available.

The completeness of the phrase will mature as you and the opponent you face matures.

FWIW.

[Nanbanjin]

i know that, what i meant is: in any case you already missed his 'attack' and the opportunity to strike 'within' that attack.

mitsu no sen includes follow up (after)attacks then?
Go-no-sen is taking opportunity of the moment following your opponent's attack. If you leave it so long that the opponent has regained composure it will no longer be covered by any of the three "sen".

[Paburo]

well, lets put examples to it then.

kenshi one strikes perfect kote. kenshi two strikes valid men just with a little delay. the shimpan clearly see the kote landed first. kote ari.

kenshi one strikes perfect men. kenshi two strikes valid dou just with a little delay. the shimpan clearly see the men landed first. men ari.

i could go on and on... where is this go no sen, then?

as ive seen it. if your (proper)strike lands first and you do proper zanshin it is ippon, whether the opponent lands a hit on you right after or not.

thats why i dont understand this follow up attack being included in the mitsu no sen (ive never been taught follow up attacks when being instructed the mitsu no sen btw... thats why i find it a little strange...)

[Nanbanjin]

thats why i dont understand this follow up attack being included in the mitsu no sen (ive never been taught follow up attacks when being instructed the mitsu no sen btw... thats why i find it a little strange...)

I agree with you Paburo. Oikomi simply means chasing after your opponent. Referring to it as a waza seems a little misguided so I don't think it should be in Ben's list. Usually oikomi refers to a type of training. It's a little like kakari-geiko. Even if it were considered a waza as it is described here it occurs outside the time-frame of Mitsu-no-sen.

[DCPan]

well, lets put examples to it then.

kenshi one strikes perfect kote. kenshi two strikes valid men just with a little delay. the shimpan clearly see the kote landed first. kote ari.

While the situation you describe above would get you ippon in today's tournaments, some of the old timer senseis would disagree with that being a good ippon.

It use to be that a de-kote is no good if you get hit on men right after your de-kote.

It is considered by some sensei that the above situation is ai-uchi because cutting off only one forearm is insufficient to stop the men uchi that follows.

as ive seen it. if your (proper)strike lands first and you do proper zanshin it is ippon, whether the opponent lands a hit on you right after or not.

It is considered by some that you don't have good zanshin, if the opponent can land an effective hit on you right after. A good example would be doh uchi...if the opponent can hit you on your exit or when you turn around, you didn't have enough zanshin on your doh uchi.

As for your statement about the placement of oikomi being a waza, I wasn't thinking about that. Like Nanbanjin said though, I wouldn't consider oikomi to be an waza either....

[ben]

Nanban, the definition I'm working from is a little different to yours.

"go-no-sen: When the opponent sees a suki (weakness) and initiates an attack, winning by first striking down the opponent's sword or parrying, then attacking strongly when the opponent has become discouraged. Also (known as) sengo-no-sen or tai-no-sen."
from "Kendo" by Takano Sasaburo, quoted in "ZNKR Wa-Ei Kendo Jiten" 1996 ed.

I read this to mean an earlier timing than tsukita no tokoro, i.e. whilst your opponent is still engaged in their attack. However a closer reading of Takano sensei's words reveal an ambiguity that I suppose could be read as attacking when your opponent stalls or is exhausted after their attack has miscarried. This would make it equivalent to tsukita no tokoro (tsukusu - to exhaust, to use up)

Notes I have from a lecture by Nagae sensei have an explanation of the three sen as follows:1) sen = ahead, 2) tai = against, 3) go = after. This explanation is still ambiguous but I find I can get quite a strong mental picture of the different timings from these one word descriptions.

b

[DCPan]

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16133&highlight=sen

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22375&highlight=sen

And yes, I'm still wondering....

[ben]

I suppose I've heard it generically referred to as "oikomi-waza" for so long that I put it in. Strictly speaking I think you're all correct, maybe it's more a "state of mind." ;)

Paburo, (let's say for the moment that go-no-sen and tsukita no tokoro are the same, but I shall call it tsukita)... where is this tsukita timing you ask?

The examples you gave are all of prefect strikes. Even without DCPan's "gekken" explanation, there are many degrees of attack, some good, some bad, some in between. What happens when there is an engagement that has seen attack, then counter attack (and so on, and so on ad infinitum) with still no result? One kenshi has mentally reset for the next engagement from IINM, (or simply "checked out" from the pressure) however the other has not let up from the last one, and has realised a men cut is there if his/her fumikomi is shortened to cut from a very close chika-ma. Pon! This is how I see tsukita. Also, if you have "Kendo's Gruelling Challenge" on video, see the footage of Ishida's winning men. His opponent goes for kote. Ishida actually lets go of the shinai with his right hand, avoiding the cut. Then a BIG pause where Ishida's opponent freezes and Ishida lands kihon men without seemingly any forward (or backward) movement at all.

I think oikomi might in some way be the corollary of sutemi. Sutemi I see as forcing the issue at the beginning of the engagement from IINM. Oikomi is having more patience, more insight and more resolve to follow through, after letting your opponent think they can win. It can look like kakari-geiko but needn't (although kakrigeiko is undoubtedly how you teach/train the oikomi mindset).

Paburo, perhaps to understand tsukita you need to be able to visualise imperfect, messy keiko, albeit with real-life dynamics, not just ideal keiko.

b

[Nanbanjin]

Nanban, the definition I'm working from is a little different to yours.

"go-no-sen: When the opponent sees a suki (weakness) and initiates an attack, winning by first striking down the opponent's sword or parrying, then attacking strongly when the opponent has become discouraged. Also (known as) sengo-no-sen or tai-no-sen."
from "Kendo" by Takano Sasaburo, quoted in "ZNKR Wa-Ei Kendo Jiten" 1996 ed.


Funnily enough this seems to be a translation of th same text that I translated.
I said my translation was loose! However, the translation you have referenced translates 相手の気勢のゆるむところを as "when the opponent has become discouraged".
My translation was "at the point where the opponent's momentum has been spent". My translation is more precise in the timing of the strike. In all modesty I think my translation here is better representation of "go-no-sen". "Spent" is probably not the best word to use though. "Checked" might be more accurate. You should read momentum as mental or spiritual momentum more so than physical momentum. If you leave your counter attack too long you will miss this window of opportunity. Maybe "windows of opportunity" is a good description of the three "sen". "Go-no-sen" is a finite opportunity at the end of the strike.

[DCPan]

"Go-no-sen" is a finite opportunity at the end of the strike.

That answered my question! It would appear that I've confused sen no sen with go no sen.

Thanks! :wink:

[kuwaiti-kendoka]

Gosh

dont tell me those are the basic Wazas. I mean i'm green and this is like the first time i've laid eyes on a Waza "even though it's not real"

tell me if i used these Waza can i improve my kendo skills

:)

[Paburo]

thanks ben and nanban for clarification.

its just that i thought mitsu no sen included exclusively only the opportunity to strike within the opponents attack. if go no sen also includes taking advantage of that very second after a missed-weak-exhausted strike from your opponent... well, thats news for me.

shall look more into this interesting matter...

cheers

[Nanbanjin]

I remembered an old thread that had some references to oikomi.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3652&highlight=oikomi

[ben]

Thanks Peter. On reading that thread and thinking about it, yep, oikomi waza stays in the diagram. It is no less a waza than debana. In fact you could call debana a waza of sensen no sen/okosu no tokoro, and oikomi a waza of go no sen/tsuki no tokoro.

Which brings me to the question, are go no sen and tsuki no tokoro describing the same thing? Are they, in fact, equivalent? I used to doubt this was so, that's why I came up with the diagram, to visualise the difference. Now I think they might be the same thing.

If there's anyone who can answer this question, or failing that, post it somewhere like ichinikai I'd be much obliged.

b

[Nanbanjin]

Thanks Peter. On reading that thread and thinking about it, yep, oikomi waza stays in the diagram. It is no less a waza than debana. In fact you could call debana a waza of sensen no sen/okosu no tokoro, and oikomi a waza of go no sen/tsuki no tokoro.

Which brings me to the question, are go no sen and tsuki no tokoro describing the same thing? Are they, in fact, equivalent? I used to doubt this was so, that's why I came up with the diagram, to visualise the difference. Now I think they might be the same thing.

If there's anyone who can answer this question, or failing that, post it somewhere like ichinikai I'd be much obliged.

b
Ben,

On re-reading the thread and what is on Ichinikai and google I've only become more confused.

What material did you reference for "Datotsu-no-kikai"?

Web references to "datotsu-no-kikai" are generally uniform, but differ from what you have posted.
In the references I have been able to find there are seven or eight "datotsu-no-kikai" (or "datotsu-no-kouki") and the three that you are alluding to are given as "Okori-gashira/degashira", "Uketometa-tokoro" and "Waza-no-tsukita-tokoro".

"Uketometa-tokoro" is the point where your opponent has blocked your datotsu, not the other way around. Your definition of "Uketa-no-tokoro" is given as "To strike as your opponent completes their attack". Some web definitions of "Uketometa-tokoro" are as follow:

The original is here (http://web.cc.yamaguchi-u.ac.jp/~c066eb/senjin.kouki.htm)

自分のうちを相手が単に受け止めた時、相手の体は「ほっ」という心とともに

居ついてしまうものです。そこを反撃の余地を与えず打ち込みます。

気をつけなければならないのはやたらに打った後打てばいいという訳ではない

ことでしょう。自分が無理な体勢で打ちにいけば、相手の方が体勢と気力が

充分だったりする時があります。そういった時は必ず相手に先を取られます。

This is where your opponent makes a slight pause and becomes static after simply blocking your datotsu. At that point you should strike without allowing your opponent the opportunity to counter attack.

You should be careful not to treat this as meaning that it's OK to simply hit again after making a half hearted effort to strike. If you attack from a position where you aren't properly prepared then your opponent may be able to maintain posture and composure, and in this case your opponent will always get the upper hand.


Another reference is here (http://www1.odn.ne.jp/~ono-kendo/kendo-gakka.doc)

　（４）受け止めたところ
こちらの攻撃に対し、相手が応じわざで応じることができず、受け止めただけの場合は打突する機 会である。


　4. Uketometa-tokoro
In response to your datotsu your opponent may simply block without being able to retaliate using ouji-waza and in this case there is an opportunity for you to strike.


Generally there are no direct comparisons of "Mitsu-no-sen" and "Datotsu-no-kikai/Datotsu-no-kohki". The following description of "Waza-no-okori-gashira" (which in your terms would be "okosu") has turned my limited understanding of "mitsu-no-sen" upside-down.

Seehere (http://web.cc.yamaguchi-u.ac.jp/~c066eb/senjin.kouki.htm)

一、技の起こり頭（がしら）

技を出そうとする時、相手は打ちにいっているのでよけることができません。

言われれば当然ですが。ここを狙うのが「後の先」（後から出てのち先を奪う）

いわゆる「応じ技」です。相手が打ってくるのを見てからでは間に合いません。

相手が打ちにいこうとする「タメ」を感じた瞬間すかさず打ちにかかります。

宮本武蔵は「起こり」を打つのではなく、起こりの「お」を打てと説いています。

この打つ前の余計な動作を「色」といいます。

剣道はある意味、いかにこの「色」を見せずに打ち、そして相手の「色」を

見抜いて（または誘い出して）打つかの勝負でもあると思います。


1. Waza-no-okori-gashira
When attempting to attack the opponent is embarking on a strike so they are unable to defend.

This seems self evident. Taking advantage of this is go-no-sen (taking the initiative after the opponent's attack has begun).

This is what is called "ouji-waza". If you wait till your opponent is coming towards you you will be too late.

You need to strike without hesitation the moment your feel the "tame" when your opponent is going to strike towards you.

Miyamoto Musashi explained that you should hit not "okori" but the "o" of "okori".
Unnecessary movements before striking are called "colour".

In some ways kendo is all about winning by hitting without showing your opponent this "colour" and also reading (or enticing) the "colour" of your opponent.


In the above interpretation "go-no-sen" is taken to mean "hitting directly after the opponent has started moving". It follows that under this interpretation "sen-sen-no-sen" occurs before your opponent has even begun to move, and "sen" is simply dealing with your opponents technique using suri-age and other ouji-waza.

The problem with comparing "mitsu-no-sen" and "datotsu-no-kikai" as you have in your diagram is that "sen" is being translated as opportunity. I am not sure of the best way of translating "sen". At first I though that "initiative" might be best, but I not think that "get the upper hand" might be better. Perhaps "sen" is not so much about taking opportunities but about staying one step ahead of your opponent, or how to read your opponent. "Sen" probably has more to do with "seme" than it does with "datotsu".

These terms are new to me but I have never given them much consideration. In an earlier post I described "mitsu-no-sen" as "windows of opportunity" but I have serious doubts about this interpretation only a couple of days later. Please don't take what I have written as gospel, but please also don't over simplify. I think I might have injected enough confusion here to make sure this never happens! I hope to come to a better understanding through more training.

My main objection to "oikomi-waza" is that I think it's Japlish. It sort of makes sense, but I don't think such a term is commonly used in Japanese, even within the confines of the kendo community. There is "oikomi" and there is "waza". You can have one after the other if you like, but you can't have "oikomi-waza". You can however have "oikomi-renshuh" and "oikomi-geiko". Maybe I'm wrong.

[Nanbanjin]

Oh why oh why wont they give us more time to edit?

I meant to write "These terms are not new to me..."

[DCPan]

Mitsu-no-sen

"Sen" is to seize the initiative, and this concept if particularly important when it comes to kendo.
There are three "sen" situations; "sen-sen-no-sen", "sen" and "go-no-sen".

(1) Sen-sen-no-sen
This is to watch for the opponent's intention of hitting and seize initiative by hitting straight away. For this "sen" you should hit straight away before the opponent has begun to move. You need to be able to read this before the movement has been formed and manifest "sen" in your own movements by attacking. because of this this "sen" is also called "kakari-no-sen".

(2) Sen
In this "sen" you recognise the opening in the opponent and win by hitting first as the opponent comes forward to hit you. In other words you use suri-age, ohji-kaeshi, avoid the opponent with your body movement etc to win by taking the initiative and putting yourself in a position of advantage. In this case you and your opponent attack together so this "sen" is also called "tai-no-sen" or "sen-zen-no-sen".

(3) Go-no-sen
Recognise the opponent's opening, endure the opponent's attack and hit strongly at the point where the opponent's momentum has been spent.
Therefore this "sen" is also called ( 待の先 - I'm not sure whether this should be "tai-no-sen" or "machi-no-sen"; I think probably the former) or "Sen-go-no-sen".
[/url]

You might also find the discussion on Ichinikai (http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs2/951690673828125.html) to be of interest.

Time out!

Problem.

I've always assumed that the mittsu-no-sen has a linear relationship.

So, sensen no sen is first, then sen no sen, then go no sen.

Originally, I thought sensen no sen is striking when the opponent is thinking about moving, but hasn't moved yet.

Sen no sen is striking when the opponent has begin to move (i.e. in furi-kaburi or upswing), so waza like debana, degashira, or some forms of nuki
(i.e. men-nuki doh).

Go no sen is striking when the opponent is actually in the process of cutting down...so, you are responding with oji-waza like suriage, kaeshi, etc.

After reading what you posted above, I simply shifted the timeline.

So, sensen no sen stays the same.

Sen no sen is now the time frame which opponent has began to attack, but the force of the attack isn't spent. So, in this version, I simply expanded the timeline to include when the opponent is in both up and down stroke.

So, go no sen is now when the opponent's strike is spent and you are striking him before he can recover, like kata #1.

Then, I read what you wrote below....

In the above interpretation "go-no-sen" is taken to mean "hitting directly after the opponent has started moving". It follows that under this interpretation "sen-sen-no-sen" occurs before your opponent has even begun to move, and "sen" is simply dealing with your opponents technique using suri-age and other ouji-waza.

So, time out!

Problem. Regardless of what you call it, you can strike the opponent:

- before he moves
- as he is in furikaburi (okorigashira)
- as he is cutting down
- when he is in recovery from the strike

By what you describe above, it almost sounds like "go no sen" is earlier then "sen"?

Because if you define "go no sen" as "hitting directly as the opponent has started moving", that's okori-gashira, which is still too early for suriage and kaeshi, IMHO.

I hope my question is clear....

Thanks!

[ben]

Well I knew if nothing else my pic could spark some discussion! Sorry Peter that it's given you a headache. Actually I'm very grateful that there's a few people capable of having a decent discussion on this board. Thanks for your searching and translation.

I'm not sure what to do about those differing definitions. I take on board that there is a different quality of mind perhaps between mittsu no sen and datotsu no kikai. Whatever their difference I was mainly seeking a "space/time" interpretation of the two theories. After all it's very had to draw a diagram describing mental states.

My main source for mittsu no sen is, as I mentioned above, the 1996 edition of AJKF Jap-Eng Kendo Dictionary. UNfortunately their entry for datotsu no kikai (which they call "mittsu no yurusano tokoro") is less fullsome and does not contain direct translation of the Japanese names for each. For that I rely on notes of personal communication with Nagae sensei, and his rendering of the names for each tokoro, which could be influenced by factors such as age, regional influences and time outside of Japan.

I'm hamstrung by the fact that I can't read much Japanese, and I don't have a Japanese character set.

One thing I will ask is if you can have debana waza, then why can't you have oikomi waza? There is no real "waza" in debana techniques, other than their timing. What I mean is, debana kote is not qualitatively different to kote, it's just a kote that occurs as your opponent's movement is beginning. I think to have a name for a group of techniques because those techniques happen in a certain timing is important. It is one way of learning about that timing and being reminded of it.

b

[DCPan]

I take on board that there is a different quality of mind perhaps between mittsu no sen and datotsu no kikai. Whatever their difference I was mainly seeking a "space/time" interpretation of the two theories.

Hmm....food for thought :wink:

Not to throw another twister, but wouldn't things be even MORE confusing when we start to distinguish between when we've "mentally" decided to do something vs. "physically" doing the technique?

Oops, more later...gotta run.

[DCPan]

Hi Ben,

You make me want to draw my own diagram now!!! :wink:

Question...the choice of translating the word "sen" as "first".

I've always thought of "sen" as "initiative"...must be too much RPGs.

FWIW.

[DCPan]

Hi Ben,

Sorry for the delay. Rather than just snapping a photo of the page, I'm going to "attempt" to translate the diagram on page 75.

Self in Blue
Opponent in Red
Sen in Green.

- - - In chonological flow - - -

Seme.

Unconscious response to seme.

Kakari no sen = Taking the center with your ki or heart = Itsuki (translation help!)

Conscious response to seme.

Tai-Tai-no-sen = Using your body movement to take the center = Debana/Okori-gashira.

Opponent's strike begins.

Tai-no-sen = Taking the center with your waza/sword = Waza

End of Opponent's Strike.

- - - End of real time flow - - -

I gained a lot from this particular interpretation of mittsu no sen because of this:

I can always trick myself into thinking that I'm taking the initiative and forcing the opponent to attack where I want them to attack so I can do the oji-waza.

However, until I actually start taking the center with something other than my sword, for all I know, I can be delusional.

Hence, I'm practicing to do something earlier in the timeline.

Another way to put it is this.

If I use my seme to force the opponent to attack my men so I can do kaeshi-doh on him...if I move even earlier, can I call it a nuki-doh? If the motion is same, timing is different, what do you call it? :wink:

FWIW.

[DCPan]

One thing I will ask is if you can have debana waza, then why can't you have oikomi waza?

Well...I'd probably call it hiki-bana waza...as you are normally not chasing them unless they are retreating from you...this name also gives more symmetry.

However, I think oikomi is more encompassing than hiki-bana because I wouldn't call chasing the opponent on his turnaround hiki-bana....

Trying to pretend I'm word-smithing with my bad Japanese... :wink:

[DCPan]

Kakari no sen = Taking the center with your ki or heart = Itsuki (translation help!).

Found it! Itsuki = 居ついて = opponent being static/in place etc...

Translation by reverse engineering via Nanbanjin's posts....

- - -

BTW, it would appear that Musashi-Kai's interpretation of mittsu no sen doesn't have a place for "Waza-no-tsukita-tokoro" because the timeline ends with the end of the opponent's strike.

- - -

Lastly, I don't think "Uketometa-tokoro" really fits nicely into the mittsu-no-sen timeline.

In some ways, I would almost think "Uketometa-tokoro" and "Waza-no-tsukita-tokoro" are very similar timing in different situations, because one is catching the opponent when he stopped after receiving your first while the other is cathcing the opponent after his strike is spent...they are kind of similar really, because both are when the opponent's mind stopped after doing an action.

Your mileage may vary....

[DCPan]

I can't stop!

I'm thinking about relating sen with datotsu no kikai....

For some reason, the words "unforced error" came to mind. Can't remember which sport that term comes from...but here goes.

In terms of unforced opportunities of attack, you have:
- just as the opponent is just about to begin an action (q.v. okorigashira).
- just as the opponent's action is finished, be it striking or blocking (q.v. "Uketometa-tokoro" and "Waza-no-tsukita-tokoro" )

However, as the opponent gets more advanced, it's harder and harder to rely on unforced opportunities of attack, so you have forced opportunities of attack from:
- breaking/interrupting the opponent's kamae with seme or waza (q.v. harai, osae, maki, nori, etc)
-interrupting the opponent's attack (q.v. suriage, kaeshi, etc)

Where am I going with this? I'm not so sure...so I'll stop now :confused2

[Kingofmyrrh]

Thought I might as well add in my thoughts, for what they're worth. I don't necessarily think that there's one single interpretation that's shared by the whole kendo world, but here's what I've heard.
Incidentally, I think that 'initiative' or 'lead' is a good way of thinking of 'sen'. I remember that when I was at Keio, at the last practice before our team entered a competition Toda sensei would always say, 'I don't care whether you hit first or not, but you really have to make sure to grasp control 'sen' of the match'. Another similar term that one hears a lot is 'shudouken' (main-lead-right), which for the purpose of this argument I feel can be used just as well to describe the basic concept of 'sen'.

So anyway, onto the definitions:

sen-sen-no-sen

To me, this merely means making your strike before their technique has begun. When I say before, I mean both before they've moved and before they've even decided what to do. Of course, they may have the vague idea of 'might be nice to hit men next' going through their mind, but this is not the same as having made a definite decision as to what to do and how to go about doing it, so still falls into the 'before the technique' category.
A random selection of techniques that you might use at this point include harai and maki waza, osae men, as well as just plain old tsuki and tobikomi men. This opportunity also pretty much equates, as I see it, with DCPan's 'itsuki', or situation where the opponent is immobilised/not in an attacking frame of mind. I think an excellent example of making use of an opponent in this frame of mind is feinting. For example, against a less experienced person, if I suddenly jerk my kensen up and to the right while advancing my right foot a little, they will most likely jerk their shinai up and right (as I see it) as well, in order to stop some perceived attack that I'm going to make. At this point it's not much work to land a blow to their open kote. Naturally, variations of this feint exist that open up men/the 2 dos/tsuki as well. The important point here is that this only works because the opponent's mindset is not an attacking one; these feints involve opening up the centre, so an opponent with an attacking frame of mind will most likely steamroller down the middle if you try this on them. It will only work on an opponent who is in this state of 'itsuki'. I find that making these kinds of feints is a useful way of helping less experienced people realize that because they went defensive when facing a perceived threat, instead of actively launching their own attack, they are not displaying a suitable attitude.

Some situations where sen-sen-no-sen is useful (definitely not exhaustive):
-opponent is inexperienced
-opponent is tired (for example, encho)
-opponent is confused as to what to do (often when they've tried all their best moves on you and don't know where to go next. This often falls in encho as well, for obvious reasons).
-Opponent isn't trying to score (a situation that often arises in a team match, where all the opponent has to do is hang tough. Less experienced people may allow themselves to becoming overly defensive at this point, leading to all sorts of feinting/harai etc opportunities).

OK, have to go to NYE party now, get to the others later.

[DCPan]

Hi all,

One more thing.

My favorite explanation is actually this one.

I asked one of my sensei about mittsu no sen...he smiled and got a book off the shelf written in Japanese by another kendo sensei who attended the busen.

After a long diatribe, the book basically said, "After reading the examples of mittsu-no-sen as described in kendo kata, I must respectfully concluded that the mittsu no sen as described by Takano Sasaburo sensei only makes sense to Takano Sasaburo sensei."

FWIW....

[DCPan]

Where am I going with this? I'm not so sure...so I'll stop now :confused2

I remember now.

IMHO, datotsu no kikai doesn't have a linear relationship, so you can't really put it on a time line...if anything, it's more like a fork.

First datotsu no kikai is okorigashia, or when the opponent begins his move.

If you miss that opportunity, the next opportunity depends on what he did.

If he decided to attack, you can catch him on "Waza-no-tsukita-tokoro", or when his attack is spent.

If he decide to parry, you can catch him on "Uketometa-tokoro", or when his pause after the parry.

I hope that makes sense.

:wink:

[ben]

It's gonna take me a while to absorb all these opinions and bits of info. I know my diagram was provisional and I'm glad it's got people thinking. I'd like it ideally to be a little bit instructional too. Perhaps that's not possible because of the nature of the topic. I love that quote about "perhaps only Takano sensei understands..." :D
b

[Nanbanjin]

From Ichinikai (http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~ichini/bbs2/951690673828125.html)

This is really just the beginning. I'll continue posting when I have more time. It ties in with "sen" on the way.

"
In waza training (and in the process of using waza) there are three aspects that should be mastered: "Ma-ai" (in a general sense), "Seme" and "Datotsu-no-kikai (opportunity to strike)". The perfection of these points (the process of refining waza), according to Musashi, takes about 30 years.

There are various schools of thought regarding the flow of movement to the point of datotsu (the timing to that point) but basically the flow is "Seme > Tame > Kuzushi > Datotsu".

I will deal with "Seme" only.

Definition of "Seme": Seme is "in order to create an opportunity to strike, so as to ellicit such movement, forcing the movement from the opponent". In other words, while being in a position, posture and guard such that one is able to hit at any time as well as being able to defend, "asking" the opponent, "Well, what are you going to do". Then hitting as the opponent moves. (from the late Matsumoto Toshio Kyuhdan).


San-koh-itchi theory 三攻一致論　(Ki-ken-tai-itchi).
The three tools of seme, "Ki(spirit)-no-seme", "Ken(sword) (movement)-no-seme", "Tai (body)-no-seme"
1. Ki-no-seme is the root of seme. The union of a relaxed ki-gamae (sen-no-kigurai) and kokoro-gamae (in relation to mi-gamae).
2. Ken (dohsa/movement)-no-seme. This is made up of the following three items: "hen-toh (change in the (position of the)) sword", the act of striking (datotsu), ken-sen-no-seme.
3. Tai (body)-no-seme. The act of putting physical pressure on the opponent utilizing the left leg (uchi-ma).

3. is the mastery of "ma-ai" (in its specific definition). "Uchi-ma" = "Kokoro-no-ma-ai" = the understanding of "closer than me, further from my opponent". Taking your own specific uchi-ma from the movements of defence/attack afforded by issoku-ittoh-no-ma.

Ki-no-seichou-katei theory (Theory of developing ki) (three level) = the process of nurturing seme

Level 1: Haru-ki. Readiness, "fight". Readiness of spirit.
1. Tsuke-kome-no-seme (initiating seme) (seme taking the centre of the opponent's face with the kensen, tangible sen-sen-no-sen - Kendo-kata)

> 2. Stronger seme. (harai, suri-komi, hari, maki, osae)

> 3. Soft seme. (sasoi (enticement) seme = enticing to strike kote, enticing to strike men)

(Seme that should be trained in supplement as part of the above process)
* Seme from below (fist-seme = applying seme to the omote of the tsuka-moto, the "Ichi-ri" of Yagyuh-shin-kage-ryuh)
* Seme for use in shinai competition (single-feint, double-feint and a type of encitement-seme).
* The act of hitting (datotsu). (ki-atari).

Level 2: Sumu-ki (Clear-ki) - The state of "Meikyoushisui (mirror without blemish, still water)" (The state attained by Musashi) (Kensei-nyuhri > kensei-godoh)
1. Mushoku-mushoh-no-seme (seme without colour or smell) (Seme without making your opponent aware of the seme, in other words, colourless seme, formless sen-sen-no-sen = kendo-kata) (extremely small change)

Level 3: Saeru-ki. In regards to all things, undescerning, unhesitating, unquestioning, the state of mushin-munen. (Goryoh-dohmigo = kensei-ryoh-ryoh-tei)

1. "Irasshai-no-seme (the state of arriving where in recent years, "no man has been before")"
"

To be honest, I don't know what the last bit of this means.

[Nanbanjin]

"
Supplement

Kendo-kata-no-sen-ron ("Sen" theory of kendo kata) - "How to take winning opportunities"

In the tachi kata you find two types of sen, "sen-sen-no-sen" and "go-no-sen".

1) "Sen-sen-no-sen" is taking winning opportunities by reading, and is exhibited in tachi-no-kata 1, 2, 3 and 5 hon-me. In these examples we find two types of sen-sen-no-sen, "tangible sen-sen-no-sen" and "formless/intangible sen-sen-no-sen".
i) Ther former of these involves using the kensen to apply seme in a tangible manner, enticing the opponent who is retreating, drawing them out with seme, for example enticing the opponent to hit kote and reacting as if you have seen through their movement, enticing a men-uchi and reacting as if you have seen through their intentions which are applied in "ooji-waza", or seme such as suri-komu, maku, haru, harau, osaeru nd tsuke-komi which is applied in "shikake-waza".
ii) The latter is "mushoku-mushuh-no (colourless and scentless) -seme", or by other names "Nihoi-no-sen-sen-no-sen", "Iro-nashi-no-seme". In this seme: kamae = a state of seme. In other words kamae, iri, uchi-dashi are not three separate things but are as one, in a state where there is no suki (opening) presented. With continued and dedicated training you can reach a state where "tangible sen-sen-no-sen" can become "intangible sen-sen-no-sen" formlessly, or with the slightest of physical change. This means that the sen in the ki-gurai of tachi-no-kata 1, 2, 3 and 5 where you apply tsuke-komi and kodachi-no-kata 1 pon-me, the action becomes that of "Ki-hai (awareness)" such that the action is performed "at the point where irimi is about to be entered" rather than "at the point of irimi", using you ki (spirit/awareness) such that you act as soon as you have though "I am about to go".

2) "Go-no-sen" is "reaction (conditioned reaction)" and is seen in tachi-no-kata 4, 6 and 7. If you imagine a top spinning rapidly you will be able to understand more easily. If something hits the top it is immediately repelled.

A concrete example of this is receiving tai-atari from an opponent and using hiki-waza. You receive. Your opponent attacks towards you with a waza. In other words this side is retreating, and the opponent is chasing towards you. Here some type of "mid-motion attack and defence" occurs. At that point "Go-no-sen" is applied, and from that mi-gamae, with "ooji-waza" as the basis, it is a matter of being able to peform waza instantaneously or not. This is the study of "go-no-sen".

"

I'd like to draw attention to the description of "go-no-sen" as "conditioned-reacton". This means "conditioned response" of the Pavlov's dog type. You can see that for this a great deal of repetitive training may be required.

[Nanbanjin]

When learning "sen" theory it is important to emphasise that, the first waza is performed with "sen-sen-no-sen" and if this fails use "go-no-sen" and so on, connecting multiple waza until one of the waza, of perhaps the first waza (sho-tachi-no-tori - winning with the first sword/cut) is successful. It is important that ultimately this is seen as a unified action.

> As your practice progresses anybody should be able to be able to absorb your opponent's attack, including their seme, and thus place them in a state of hohshinjoutai ( 放心状態 )(where the have lost their "ki").

Note:
Many people make the mistake of thinking that seme is the act of taking one step forward. Taking one step towards the opponent is certainly one requirement for seme, but in itself it is noting more than moving to shorten the distance between you and your opponent.

> More accurately, seme is nothing more than one aspect of the flow of your own kamae entering your opponents kamae without being broken, forcing your opponents kokoro (will, spirit, concentraition) to move, creating a chance to hit one of the four target areas, and performing the strike.

Conclusion:
The concept of seme differs at different stages of training development. Particularly when young it is sufficient to develop your own natural ability. As you progress it is more important to use various types of seme to develop correct "tame" technique/skill.

You need keiko, you need to refine technique.

[Nanbanjin]

The last post was meant to have quotes around it.

[DCPan]

In the recent issue of Kendo Nippon, one artcile discussed Takano Sasaburo sensei's definitino of "sen sen no sen" and "go no sen" in kendo kata that is very illuminating.

"Sen sen no sen" is when you have foreknowledge of what your opponent will do and use that to your advantage.

"Go no sen" is when you conditionally respond to your opponent's attack (i.e. "reflex").

Thus, the conclusion was that while the observor can tell whether someone is doing shikake or ojiwaza, the observor will not be able to tell whether the performer is in sen sen no sen or go no sen. Only the performer would know whether he or she is acting with foreknowledge or by reflex....

FWIW.

P.S. Any error in translation or understanding is my own, and not reflective of the article.