Kaeshi versus suriage

[tantadi]

I'm wondering about a couple of things regarding keashi versus suriage.
1) Is one faster than another?
2) Are they used in different circumstances? (Is one better than the other at some times?)
3) The position of the wrists?
4) Footwork: I've read somewhere that you should step back with the left, and then go forward again when you do the counter cut (except do). That means a lot of stepping in a short time...?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm wondering about a couple of things regarding keashi versus suriage.
1) Is one faster than another?
2) Are they used in different circumstances? (Is one better than the other at some times?)
3) The position of the wrists?
4) Footwork: I've read somewhere that you should step back with the left, and then go forward again when you do the counter cut (except do). That means a lot of stepping in a short time...?
1. I find suriagi to be faster
2. For me it depends on maai. I find defending men with suriagi to be awkward, kaeshi works better. Vice-versa with kote.
3. The wrists are way different. Kaeshi requires a block and a rotation, so the wrists have to cock sideways. Suriagi is a sliding brush, so the wrists are usually just rolling one way or the other.
4. I wouldn't step back for kaeshi-waza, which is not to say that others don't do that or that it's a hard/fast rule.

[mystic_kendoka]

1. i'd say suriage is faster too, for kaeshi u need to swing ur shinai round ur opponent's, while in suriage u just tap n hit straight down (sort of)
2. is suriage do possible?

[DCPan]

2. is suriage do possible?

Yes.

You do kote.

Opponent do nuki-men.

You do men-suriage(ura)-hiki-doh.

Big surprise to those that are nuki-men happy.

[DCPan]

In theory, you should be able to do men-suriage(ura)-doh and exit forward and to the opponent's right.

However, I've not seen a point like that taken in shiai...I've actually not seen people do doh and exiting to the opponent's right, except in kihon practice.

Always wondered if the judges will take that kind of a point.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Why not? Going to the left (opponent's right) is the fundamental way, AFAIK. We always teach it that way.

[DCPan]

Why not? Going to the left (opponent's right) is the fundamental way, AFAIK. We always teach it that way.

I think part of the problem with going to the left (opponent's right) is that people tend to make it very "tappy".

When you exit to the right (opponent's left), there is this feel of disembowling the opponent and a sense of finality that isn't present in exiting left.

Visually, going to the left make the doh strike appear "asai (shallow)"....

FWIW.

[Twobitmage]

Why not? Going to the left (opponent's right) is the fundamental way, AFAIK. We always teach it that way.

neil I gotta love that christmas avatar and description :)

I just watched the grinch stole christmas this morning for the first time in years

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think part of the problem with going to the left (opponent's right) is that people tend to make it very "tappy".
Part of the problem with going the other way is that people tend to make it very "slappy", hitting from way too close. Which is why we teach going left first, so people get the proper maai and initial contact.

[Stephen]

I'm wondering about a couple of things regarding keashi versus suriage.
4) Footwork: I've read somewhere that you should step back with the left, and then go forward again when you do the counter cut (except do). That means a lot of stepping in a short time...?
With suriagi it often depends of the size/speed (and therefore maai) of your opponent - so like Neil said generaly not but it can be necessary - the exception can be things like men kaeshi kote where you need to step back (and to the left a bit) if you want to make a clean hit

[neko kenshi]

*feeling stupid*


Sorry to ask, but which is which? i think kaeshi waza is the one where you roll your wrist as they strike your shinai and then strike them, and suriage waza is where you block and attack (such as cocking your wrists to the left as they come for men and hitting them through the gap) I don't know if it's visa versa, or if I have them both completely wrong. Could you set me straight please? One more thing, whenever I attempt suriage (or atleast what I think is surigage) men, I can never get the hit in. They come for my men, so I move my wrists to the left and deflect the attack, but when I try to hit men (whether big or small) they always have time to move their shinai to block, and it seems even if I were super fast, they'd still have plenty of time to move their shinai such a small distance. So how are you supposed to use that waza effectively? Thank you for your advice!

[Stephen]

*feeling stupid*


Sorry to ask, but which is which? i think kaeshi waza is the one where you roll your wrist as they strike your shinai and then strike them, and suriage waza is where you block and attack (such as cocking your wrists to the left as they come for men and hitting them through the gap) I don't know if it's visa versa, or if I have them both completely wrong. Could you set me straight please? One more thing, whenever I attempt suriage (or atleast what I think is surigage) men, I can never get the hit in. They come for my men, so I move my wrists to the left and deflect the attack, but when I try to hit men (whether big or small) they always have time to move their shinai to block, and it seems even if I were super fast, they'd still have plenty of time to move their shinai such a small distance. So how are you supposed to use that waza effectively? Thank you for your advice!
Kaeshi is the one where you block the attack, suriage is more of a deflection where you hit/deflect their shinai (more so than simply rolling your wrist when they hit your shinai). Im pretty bad at men kaeshi men (hence why i mentioned above about men kaeshi kote:wink: ) and find suriage men much easier to hit consistently. Although ive seen a few people duck, i havnt seen anyone be able to block suriage that easily. Please excuse my poor explanation, hopefully others may do better. (Im still recovering from xmas drinks last night)

[ace]

i find that kaeishi works better for me because there seems to be less chance of missing the block or deflection in the case of suriage so it seems a less risky move to do in shia and you can use the force from the other strike to help you make the cut and there for seems faster and you dont hafta raise the shinai right up before you strike.
mind you this is only my thoughts and i havent been doing kendo that long.

[tanueirin]

Timing is pretty important. What I've found is that as soon as they start to lean forward, your arms and shinai should already be extended to deflect the cut, be it in suriage or kaeshi. Kaeshi kote is a pretty neat one to do (if you can get it right) and a favourite of Miyazaki's, I've heard.

[Koki]

I'm wondering about a couple of things regarding keashi versus suriage.
1) Is one faster than another?
2) Are they used in different circumstances? (Is one better than the other at some times?)
3) The position of the wrists?
4) Footwork: I've read somewhere that you should step back with the left, and then go forward again when you do the counter cut (except do). That means a lot of stepping in a short time...?
Speed is not the most important factor. Timing is the most important factor. You have to train to see when the opponent is about to come.

I think they both are based on the same principles. You don't have enough time to think which one you should use as the opponent comes for you. Instead of waiting for the opponent ot come, you have to "make the opponent move" by using seme. If you just wait, you are always one step behind.

I always keep my mind open and flexible when i want to counter attack. In other words, I don't think " Ok, when he comes , i m gonna do this... and this" . When one thinks like that, it is always too late. Consequently, i just do whatever my body feel like when the opponent comes.

Of course, you have to practice a move thousands of time before it becomes natural. Training takes time!

[Pokie]

kaeshi vs suriage hrmmm

from my experience kaeshi is harder to execute than suriage. Man kaeshi doh for example...can get kaeshi..but kendoka is moving as fast as lightning and there's no time for me to hit do. So makes you think how dan guys make it looks so easy hrmmm.

Suriage men, i can only get it if i jump back..if i go forward..there's no way for me to get suriage men..cos kendoka going so fast forward, but atleast I can still hit men..not like kaeshi do.

Kaeshi is definately more of an advanced waza than suriage, to me anyways..someone could find it the other way round.

[Koki]

Don't bend your arms and move the tip of your shinai backward when you do kaeshi. Instead, from kamae, slighly raise the shinai up and reach your arm forward. That will give you enough distance to hit the do.

[tantadi]

I'm thinking that kaeshi might be better suited against the hard/fast hitters if you can get the timing right. Because it has more "stopping power", and suriage might be too weak? But that could just be me misunderstanding things.

[Koki]

I think we shouldn't spend so much time thinking what we would use in a particular situation. The truth is the opponent will strike so fast you won't have time to think at all.

Anyway, last summer i was at the Kendo camp in San Jose with Ota sensei from Japan. He said all oji waza have the same principle which is you have to make your opponent move instead of waiting for him to move. After making him move, kaeshi and suriage are not that different from each other. In facts, you just move your wrists a little bit to the side then you will have kaeshi instead of suriage and vice versa. Therefore, why do you have to limit yourself?

Be flexible in practice and shiai. If your arms feel like doing kaeshi, do kaeshi. If they like suriage, let them do suriage. STOP THINKING!

[Pokie]

Don't bend your arms and move the tip of your shinai backward when you do kaeshi. Instead, from kamae, slighly raise the shinai up and reach your arm forward. That will give you enough distance to hit the do.

Thankyou very much !! Can't wait to try it :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

He said all oji waza have the same principle which is you have to make your opponent move instead of waiting for him to move.
This is the ideal of course but for many people reading it's not practical - their kendo is at a level such that this sort of seme is not yet working. But they can still use these techniques, especially against opponents of their own level who are attacking slowly enough to allow them to react.

Men-kaeshi-doh is a good example. If you can get your opponent to attack men, then you can do men-nuki-doh and be launching your doh as he is committing to men. But with kaeshi-doh, you actually have to wait around a little while in order to properly receive the men attack. So if you can spot the beginning of the men attack, you can execute kaeshi-doh whereas you might be a little late with nuki-doh.

The best way to develop this is to practice more realistically. So many times people get into this dull, predictable rut - motodachi makes a half-hearted attack that starts very predictably and of course it's easy to counter. If you are practising oji-waza, then motodachi should make a real attack, and the start of that attack should not be predictable. Make it like a real fight - a little tip-fighting, motodachi looks for a chance, then BAM - he should make his very best attack, to be reacted to with the specified waza. Think of each exchange as a little fight, try to see how many times each side can win the point. This works best when both sides are about the same level, but if the levels are different the better player should make as good of an attack as he thinks his partner can handle.

[ratdeau]

Reading all these posts is really instructing.
If you want to score with a specific waza, it's more difficult to do it.
One possible thing on a men attack is to start with a suriage (kensen slightly to the right, tsuka slightly to the left, with a up and forward motion). If you managed to move your opponent's shinai out of the way, go for men. If your opponent's shinai stay centered, go for kaeshi do.

[Koki]

The best way to develop this is to practice more realistically. So many times people get into this dull, predictable rut - motodachi makes a half-hearted attack that starts very predictably and of course it's easy to counter. If you are practising oji-waza, then motodachi should make a real attack, and the start of that attack should not be predictable. Make it like a real fight - a little tip-fighting, motodachi looks for a chance, then BAM - he should make his very best attack, to be reacted to with the specified waza. Think of each exchange as a little fight, try to see how many times each side can win the point. This works best when both sides are about the same level, but if the levels are different the better player should make as good of an attack as he thinks his partner can handle.
Well said!

[grasshopper_r2]

This is the ideal of course but for many people reading it's not practical - their kendo is at a level such that this sort of seme is not yet working. But they can still use these techniques, especially against opponents of their own level who are attacking slowly enough to allow them to react.

Men-kaeshi-doh is a good example. If you can get your opponent to attack men, then you can do men-nuki-doh and be launching your doh as he is committing to men. But with kaeshi-doh, you actually have to wait around a little while in order to properly receive the men attack. So if you can spot the beginning of the men attack, you can execute kaeshi-doh whereas you might be a little late with nuki-doh.

The best way to develop this is to practice more realistically. So many times people get into this dull, predictable rut - motodachi makes a half-hearted attack that starts very predictably and of course it's easy to counter. If you are practising oji-waza, then motodachi should make a real attack, and the start of that attack should not be predictable. Make it like a real fight - a little tip-fighting, motodachi looks for a chance, then BAM - he should make his very best attack, to be reacted to with the specified waza. Think of each exchange as a little fight, try to see how many times each side can win the point. This works best when both sides are about the same level, but if the levels are different the better player should make as good of an attack as he thinks his partner can handle.
Very nicely said. Excellent advise.