France V Britain

[Matthew Lagden]

This leads on from a comment made in the thread about woman in kendo, which is that france has more Kendoka the the UK despite coming to Kendo later (although i assume not much later).

can anyone say why this is, or why for instance Canada is so strong, and what by extension the UK could learn that would help strengthen Kendo in the UK.

was there, i don't know, a telly programme, or something else, that got a critical mass of people interested in kendo?

noone i speak to in the UK really knows the first thing about kendo, so the first step would have to be something that showed a lot of people what kendo was.

Anyway, ideas, thoughts.

[AlexM]

The first reason behind Canada's strength in kendo is simple: Japanese immigration during the first half of the 20th century (and sometime afterwards). The "masters" of kendo in Canada (the Kamatas, Asaokas, Asas, etc.) are all second, third, fourth or fifth generation kendoka and/or Japanese. I am not saying that Japanese people (or rather people of Japanese decent) have some inherent ability to do kendo and that all others are wasting their time, it's just that they supplied the main group of people who have done kendo in Canada for many years. It's just part of the community fabric for some people. Where has kendo been the strongest in Canada? British Columbia and Toronto. The two areas that attracted the biggest amount of Japanese immigration. For instance there is no tradition of kendo in Quebec mainly because the province has not been the recipient of many Japanese immigrants (we're nowhere near as good as some of the people in Ontario and BC).

Think of the other "non-Japanese" powers in kendo (except Korea): USA and Brazil. Same reason as above. Japanese immigration gave them a start-up core of people who could then promote kendo (although until recently this was in large pasrt limited to their own communities).

Having these communities that promote a tradition of kendo also helps with regards to youngsters starting kendo at an earlier age than people from the outside. If you are not exposed to kendo (which remains fairly exotic) you only discover it at the earliest when in your teens (and for most of sometime during University).

There is a problem with this theory, namely that places without large Japanese communities such as Quebec, France, Uzbekistan? produce such high quality judoka. I think this is due to the fact that judo is a much more popular sport on a international level (it certainly has a higher profile) than kendo. So in a certain sense, for judo you don't really need that start-up Japanese population since it's so well known and popular on its own. BTW, it helps when one of the best judo sensei on the continent lives in Montreal.

I should probably point out the work of one Roy Asa (CKF president among other things) who I am told has done much for the recent development of kendo in Canada (well at least in Toronto. . . as much as I hate that city). He brought over quite a few sensei from Japan in order to keep a high quality of kendo in the country.

One final note, kendo is sort of in a transition phase in Canada: the new generation of kendoka are not really Japanese, they are thorouly North American (whether they are of Japanese ancestry or not). They rarely speak the language and most of their sensei have lived all their lives in Canada (unlike the last generation who's senseis had actualy lived in Japan). This will change things. Already, people from Quebec for instance are starting to compare well with their Ontarian and British Columbian counterparts at the mudansha level (hopefully this trend will continue into the higher levels). Furthermore, the Korean clubs in Canada are starting to make their presence felt as well. There may come a day when M. Raymond is not the only person from outside a Japanese community to represent Canada at the WKC.

This question (of why kendo develops well in some places and not in others) could probably merit further research (not serious research obviously). A KW article perhaps? I'll probably add on to this post once I think of some more stuff of when someone questions my little theory.

[David J]

Canada has a long tradition of sport involving wearing armour and slamming into your opponent with a big stick......

Mind you, by that token the old USSR should have produced some fine Kendoka.....

<rei>

[kendokamax]

then what about sweeden, finland and tcheck republic?

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by kendokamax
then what about sweeden, finland and tcheck republic?

What about them? :D

[kendokamax]

well they also like to play a sport involving wearing armour and slamming into your opponent with a big stick.

[kendokamax]

I think the only way to get good if you dont have the critical amount of amazing kendoka and amazing sensei is to...find them.

That's a reason why i'm going to budo university next year.

[Hyaku]

Looking back at Brit Kendo history there have not been any long time residents Japanese apart from Fujii Sensei. Europe had the pleasure of having Sumi Sensei for some time which strengthened it a lot.

Its wonderful to see some of the older teachers but I cant help think a few Japanese fresh from uni guys would really improve things. With the great language barrier a lot is learning by practical example and perhaps that example has to be a bit dynamic to really help out.

Funny to see twenty year olds doing kendo like an seventy year olds

Its only lots of hard basics that will raise the level before we begin to slow down a bit and work on the timing of things.

Hyaku

[2muchryt]

i only wish that the US could face Canada, France and Brazil before they had to face Korea in the WKC.
i know, i like whine ,,, i mean wine

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by 2muchryt
i only wish that the US could face Canada, France and Brazil before they had to face Korea in the WKC.
i know, i like whine ,,, i mean wine
I never looked at the draw before - does the US consistently draw Korea early? 'cause that would suck.

[Antonin]

There are several reasons why there is more kendo in France than in the Uk...
-Fencing: Fencing is sport that a lot of people do, know about and enjoy. Whereas in the Uk it is slightly exotic, a lot of French people will try it at some stage when they are young. So, the jump to Fencing to kendo -japanese fencing of a sort (I WILL not enter a discussion on the Martial art vs sport aspect of this statement here...)- is not too hard to make.
-Japanese martial arts: One has to realise that the second largest sport federation in France in term of members (and therefore money, more on that later) is the judo federation. the French judo team often enjoys very good results in international competitions. Two things come from this. First, for most people, doing a japanese martial art is normal, since judo is on TV often, and many many peolpe are doing it anyway.... Second, Other arts that are part of the judo federation get some money from judo. Which leads us to...
-Money: Sport in France is subsidised. the more people doing it, and therefore the largest the federation, the more money and facilities they get. The largest the chance of medals, the more money. And in France, the kendo federation (national kendo comitee) is part of the judo federation. Yes, that's right. thefore, the kendo association have money to have some offices, pay a secretary to do the admin, pay the expenses of the team, subsidise youth camps and pay for a resident japanese expert to live in France and teach kendo.
This level of support is also present at the local level, with martial arts clubs often sharing a hall rented/given by the local city.
-Pro-Active Association: Because of its funding and of the large number of practitionners, the association thends to be quite proactive. Regular seminars will be organised, with the Japanese expert going around dojos all around the country, exhibitions and initiation courses are reguarly organised in most cities, large dojos will have a children's section, etc, thus bringing more peple to the association, etc....

Ok, so there are more kendoka in France, but is bigger better ? It depends very much on the technical knowledge of the teachers... While it is true that the uk had more high grades earlier, France has caught up, and now has a large number of 6th and 7th dans, and the first 8th dan resident in Europe (he's japanese, not French).
So, yes, France is better than the Uk. Generaly speaking, of course, but in kendo even more so....
Antonin

[stinkyKote]

just out of curiousity, is there such thing as a european kendo championship? ... if so, who wins?

[stk]

Yup, there is, and you can find reports from the last ones here: http://www.kendo.org.uk/newsevents/ekc/

[kendokamax]

i heard hungary was pretty good!

now i see that thet won last time...woah

[kendokamax]

wow but france always win..

[Antonin]

well, this year was the first year in I think 5 or 6 champs that France did not win. But we still got the individual men's, the women's team and junior cups...

[Kenshi]

Sorry for the lack of EKC info ... nobody seems to have kept a record if it !!! Anyway, if anyone here has info, please email me (george.mccall@kendo.org.uk) and I will amend the site.

Oh - and Antonin is spot on, except for the "GENERALLY" comment :)

+ the UK doesnt really start them young .... the only 2 kids dojos are Wakaba and Mumeishi.

[Antonin]

I stand on my comment of course :-)
it seems that there is no info on the EKC available.... I wonder what it says about their organisation...
Antonin