Then and now - Kendo and Samurai

[Battosai]

Does anyone know if there was a difference in the waza we learn in Kendo and waza Samurai used in Edo Japan?

To me the waza we use in Kendo would get us killed if we fought in the days of the Samurai. What do you think?

[tyler]

i'm going to assume that this is tongue in cheek and you're kidding. if not, go read a kendo book or something, run a search on the history, even just visit the znkr page and look at their history.
you mention that you think modern kendo wouldn't work in old japan. is that a critique? you may be confused as to what kendo is and why people practice it. read some basic history and things should make more sense.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

how could it get us killed if its sole aim is to kill and destroy the enemy with a fatal or disabilitating Blow?


Ok fair enough the true waza they would execute would be much closer to Kenjutsu.. if your refering to the fact that Blocking / defending is not really a high priority in Kendo, then it acurately reflects what the samurai would practice, which was sole aim of efficiently killing the opponent without thinking of blocking their attack...

[rainmaker]

I do agree with you.. When I do kendo, I do sometimes think if it is real fight, I must get killed very fast or hurt real bad if I used Kendo technique alone.. Read one of article written by one of sensei...

=================================
True swordsmanship...Hmm Difficult to define. True swordsmanship (I believe)comprises many different components, and each sword art, Kendo, Iaido, Batto, Kenjutsu, etc, posess only part of the "whole", and the last part I don't think we want to touch...Ill get to that at the bottom of the post.

The previous posts have some flaws, in that it is not nessecary to "Slice" when cutting with a Japanese blade, this is why the curvature is there. Only in some circumstances do you need to "Slice" or pull the blade. In Iaido, you better NOT hit someone!

Kendo deals with intent, use of distance, perception of openings, "Reading" your opponent and much more. The biggest thing to me that kendo deals with is the mental attitude while facing another person, which Iaido and Batto do not. Kendo does not deal with the finer points of using a sword which Iaido teaches, and it does not teach you how to cut.

Iaido teaches perfection of form and concentration in the face of a perceived opponent, proper sword handeling, how to turn a sword during use..kiriage to kesagiri, or tsubamagaeshi (sp?) concentration and balance among many other things. An Iaido practitioner is closer to cutting than a kendoka, but to assume that because someone can cut air, they can cut even a stationary target is flawed. Put a real sword in many Iaido practioners hands and they do strrrrange things. This is also not to say that there are not Iaido practioners out there who can cut the first time you put a real blade in their hands. on a continueum(ok sp again ?) Iaido ka are closer to cutting than kendoka. Iaido does not teach you how to use distance, the intent to strike a real person staring you down, or to cut a real person staring you down with a sword in their hands. It does not teach you intent in the face of a real person.

Batto, or cutting, teaches just that, how to cut a stationary or moving target, proper handeling of the blade, footwork, proper hasuji, and a lot of proper blade handeling....cant make the same mistakes you can in Iaido without feeling a bit-O- pain at the least, (Assuming use of an Iaito in Iai. as many people use shinken.)

Each art holds a certain portion of the truth, you could study all of them and still not be a real swordsman.

What is a "Real Swordsman?" someone that knows how to use a sword? someone that knows how to cut? someone that knows how to kantei a blade?
Lets say you know all of this.... In my mind, your not a real swordsman untill you have once faced another person who holds both a live blade and the intent to kill you in his heart and you have lived to tell the story. It is for this reason that I think looking for "Real" swordsmanship classes, or considering oneself a "Real swordsman" is unrealistic in todays age, unless you consider certain groups of the modern military.
Study your art, understand its advantages, benefits,and disadvantages and don't be deluded or disalusioned with it.
Does anyone know if there was a difference in the waza we learn in Kendo and waza Samurai used in Edo Japan?

To me the waza we use in Kendo would get us killed if we fought in the days of the Samurai. What do you think?

[Fonsz]

Hello,
I agree with the post before me and I would like to add that I think that in essence the mind set that should be required is the same as in olden days. (Kill or be killed) When you go for it you go for it. The cuts with a blade are to be made, purposefully with Ki KenTai Ichi. Although you leave your left foot behind and it is roughly perpendicular in position of your right foot. Your right foot roughly is on the same angle as your blade. The cuts are to be made bigger, I have not seen the equivalent of Zasshi Men in Ken Jutsu, the blade is too heavy for that and the tsuka is much shorter than a Shinai.
Kendo in my opinion that won't work in real life are: provoking an attack to the men, dodge your head so it lands on your shoulder, thus being invalid, and you hit a valid target. Ippon! The attitude that Kendoka have at a Shiai should be close to what life and death situations are. I have this on good authority from this article.
http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/inevitablechange.htm
I already posted it somewhere here but I thought it would come in here nicely.
Also in my opinion to save your life on the battlefield I think that Iaido won't do you any good since the cuts, from what I have seen, are withheld, short, no Kiai, and the stance is derived from Kendo, all the Koryu foot positions are as mentioned above. I suppose it is very good for the concentration and getting the feel of a Katana but if you only practice Iaido and no Kendo then I think it won't be effective. But I can be wrong since I do not practice Iaido. I do practice Kashima Shin and that is why I come to the above mentioned conclusion. But then again who knows precisely what Samurai practiced in the olden days, we can only practice Koryu today and hope that we come close to what the curriculum used to be.My personal two cents, everyone a Happy New Year and I hope that we all progress in our Kendo the same way that we are progressing on the Forum.
Regards,
Alphons

[AkuSokuZan]

Reading from the post rainmaker gave us, My thoughts on waza etc are this. When you have learned all the parts of the sword, (I belive) you will eventually merge, Iaido, Battou, Kendo together in a fight. Each "swordmaship" teaches you something different about being in a battle. Battou, like said in the previous post, teaches you how to hit an object, Iaido, how to handle the blade from her to there, and Kendo, physical and mental states that are used in a fight (Personnally, I think Kendo is much more and will (!!!!) work in an actual fight (As long as you have reached the level where it will work).). These three different components put together, would that not help you so much in a fight rather than just waving a sword around?

Many of our thoughts on how samurai fought come from legends like Musashi. Many come from tv shows or manga or books. The truth is, (like said in the previous post) don't judge what kind of fighting was in that era and kendo because you have never been in that situation, with another man, both of you holding live blades with the pure intention to kill each other. I fyou really think that Kendo will get you killed in actual war, my response is, YES! you most likely will die. Not only because you don't have the confidence to think that you will live and that in that kind of warfare, many people are injured and die/killed. Just my own opinions on this subject.

[Wout]

Does anyone know if there was a difference in the waza we learn in Kendo and waza Samurai used in Edo Japan?

To me the waza we use in Kendo would get us killed if we fought in the days of the Samurai. What do you think?
being motodachi during kakarikeiko :D

[Hisham]

I think that the article Rainmaker posted says it all.

[wezzyfish]

Well, this is hard to determine. One must have the mind of a warrior, which is no mind but the present, the void, in order to survive against another warrior. If they both reach the void, and are unable to defeat each other through their ki, then they will likely both die. Often a samurai cut down his opponent even upon his own death. A samurai learned to move from one motion to the next without a moment's hesitation. Also, once in movement, they would commit to their act and not another, so often they would die if their opponent was ready to meet them with the same attitude. However, against someone who is not ready to act in such a manner, the warrior is next to unstoppable.

As a kendo teacher and student of kenjutsu and iaijutsu, I think that kendo would get you killed in a real battle. A shinai is nothing like a real sword. If you practice kendo with a bokken as I have my students do, and practiced good cuts, I think you would have a better chance of surviving. Still, kendo does promote the inner feelings of battle, and also balance, control, ease of mind, and speed. So, kendo could be enough, but you are talking about going up against samurai who were trained in sojutsu, naginatajutsu, kenjutsu, iaijutsu, tantojutsu, jujutsu, aikijutsu, and other forms of martial arts every day from the time they were children. Brought up to have the frame of mind of a warrior, to always act, doing the appropriate thing no matter what. Not letting the mind influence the action. Zen buddism had a large influence on their lifestyle, as did shintaoism (spelling?).

I must defend iai in some respects to the previous posts. I believe that iaido is much like kendo. A way of building the mind, spirit and body. The true embodiment of what martial arts is. However, the other half of martial arts, the destructive side is seen much more in the jutsu. Kenjutsu and iaijutsu teach you techniques and waza which have not changed from the 400+ years they have been in use, except to improve upon them. I think both the do and jutsu applications are necessary to truly be a swordsman. Iaijutsu teaches distancing, balance, cutting, and techniques which would be used in many situations where the blade starts sheathed and ends sheathed. Sometimes it never even has to leave.

I also have to disagree with the previous definition of a swordsman. I feel that a swordsman is someone who dedicates his life to studying the way of the sword. If he was never in a situation where he had to use his sword to kill an opponent, wouldn't that make him a better martial artist than those who have killed dozens. That is looking at the do side of things. So, the question to ask is if a person is a do swordsman or a jutsu swordsman.
Then the real question presents itself. If a person studies both the do and jutsu, is he both swordsmen or neither? :wink: