U.S.A and seperation?

[The Pat]

I was thinking the other day about the whole speration thing going on in quebec.
for those of you who dont know quebec is a province in canada that has a federal party who's main goal is to seperate from canada and it won ~45 out of 70 seats in quebec in the last election.

I was just wondering what you think your country would do if a state/province/teritory wanted to seperate. In canada its been put to referendum twice both times norow victories for the federalists.

The pat

p.s not sure if this should be in flames but figured it would be best to be safe.

[Hisham]

You just gotta go back in time to understand why the french population of quebec wants to separate, another point is that Canada is still young as a country.From my experience in Quebec ,i couldn't understand the fact that an anglophone who's part of a minority wouldn't know a word of french generally speaking (i used to speak english and french with an anglophone friend of mine,sometimes we would switch back and forth hehe), opposit the french minorities who live in the other provinces (got to witness that when i lived in New Brunswick).There has to be a genuine respect between the english speakers the french ones and of course the first nations ,the ties between east and west must be strengthened because it's not only in quebec that you have a separatist feeling .IMHO Canada should take Switzerland or Belgium as an example and bury the old misunderstandings once and for all,the federal system has to be fine tuned .No offence but it's not an "I'M CANADIAN" beer slogan that's gonna make some people feel part of there country.A lot of work to do but somehow i feel that your country will succeed ,as long as it's not taken for granted and people are educated the right way about the language and cultural differences.
I stand corrected about anything that i've stated, i always try to know the two sides of a story so that i'll be as close as possible to the truth.
Peace

[isi]

Is the US somehow to blame for Canada's internal politics?

[The Pat]

I dont see how the us would be any reason fo the whole quebec thing, Its been a problem since federatation. With the french and the english trying to attain the upper hand, but overtime with more and more english imegrants the french became a minority.
At one point canada ,then mostly french and under british control, was asked to join the revolution with the americains but they decided to stick with the british. Which i think was a good idea, look at louisiana how many people there still speak french?
Around the 50-60's (i think it is) french quebecers were looking around and noticed all the boses were english, thats when the speperatist parties started forming, and later unified as the Block Quebecois who was elected to lead quebec 2 or 3 times in a row periode of 8-12 years , passing pro french language laws and putting lots of money into "Des Polivalante"(high schools with work skills in mind ) they also made free post secoundary schools caled "cegeps" which are sorta pre university schools that last 2-3 years.

block quebecois recently got the majority of seats in quebec something like 42-46 seats and are now the 3rd largest party in canada which curently has a minority goerment which mean they wont be planing any referendums soon beacause they can pass more pro quebec laws in a minority goverment.

i dont think it'l ever come to seperation but i wouldnt be completly suprised if it ever hapens. I was wodering how people think there countries would react to a province/state/terriotry attempting to seperate.

The pat

[kanyil]

At least the Canadians are talking it out in a civil manner. The whole holding of candles during the night of referendum is also very touching. Imagine what Quebecois would feel had the rest of Canada taken a hardline and declares that Canada will "invade Quebec" if the issue of separation is put to a referendum.

Taiwan is not exactly a state/province trying to separate. Taiwan has been separated from for a long time (some say 300+ years, when it was colonized by the Spanish, Dutch, British and then Japanese before the current government took over by force), with its own democratically elected government, constitution, military, judiciary, and most importantly, culture (sure it's influence by the Chinese culture, but so is Singapore, Vietnam, Japan, Korea). But that won't stop China from forcing its way because the island of Taiwan is located in a strategically important location.


I was wodering how people think there countries would react to a province/state/terriotry attempting to seperate.
How about publicly stating that "there will be war" if the people should ever hold a referendum to declare their independence?

How about aiming 650+ missiles at your major cities and fire a couple off into the sea just before election time?

How about cutting off all avenue for your participation in international events? How about telling the world during the SARS outbreak that "Taiwan does not need to join the WHO because China is already taking great care of Taiwan"? (lol, joke of the century) How about to go as far as to put pressure on foreign government/institutions to bar your ex-president from visiting his old University? (Kyoto University, btw)

The above is only a tip of the iceberg, and people wonder why the Taiwanese have grown increasingly independent in recent times. With all that being said, most of the Taiwanese are pragmatists and don't care which flag they fly as long as they can keep on making money. Many hold dual citizenships and can leave on a moment's notice, but prefers to stay for the time being.

Quebecois have it made. They have a territory which is rich in resources, and is able to negotiate civilly with a civil next door neighbor. I'm sure the Taiwan government would love to trade places. It's useless to talk about the lack of "fairness" when you are pitting a 1.4+ billion behemoth against a 23 million island, and most countries in the world knows it but just won't acknowledge it out loud.

[Hisham]

At least the Canadians are talking it out in a civil manner. The whole holding of candles during the night of referendum is also very touching. Imagine what Quebecois would feel had the rest of Canada taken a hardline and declares that Canada will "invade Quebec" if the issue of separation is put to a referendum.
One of the reasons why quebecers hated Mr P.E Trudeau was because he gave a hint as to use force if quebec unilaterally seceded.I'm not sure at 100% maybe Pat would enlighten us.

Kanil ,i always thought that most of Taiwans inhabitant came from the mainland, i'm not talking about the prehistoric ages.I dunno why but i always felt that taiwaneese were proud of being chinese maybe just culturally i guess(a friend of mine is taiwaneese),as you said i think if China wasn't a dictatorship(eventhough it's not as bad as in Mr Mao's days),the taiwaneese people would feel differently about the subject.
BTW i'd love to visit Taiwan, especially that many great martial arts teachers live there.:)

[D'Artagnan]

I was thinking the other day about the whole speration thing going on in quebec.
for those of you who dont know quebec is a province in canada that has a federal party who's main goal is to seperate from canada and it won ~45 out of 70 seats in quebec in the last election.

I was just wondering what you think your country would do if a state/province/teritory wanted to seperate. In canada its been put to referendum twice both times norow victories for the federalists.

The pat

p.s not sure if this should be in flames but figured it would be best to be safe.


Your profile says you are only 16...

Shouldn't you be worrying about bike rides and video games? :robot:

Thats all I worry about... :wink:

[nalogg]

There has to be a genuine respect between the english speakers the french ones and of course the first nations ,the ties between east and west must be strengthened because it's not only in quebec that you have a separatist feeling .IMHO Canada should take Switzerland or Belgium as an example and bury the old misunderstandings once and for all,the federal system has to be fine tuned.
So true!


No offence but it's not an "I'M CANADIAN" beer slogan that's gonna make some people feel part of there country.
HAHA do you refer to the slogan they used, "My Canada includes Quebec"?

it's a statement I believe in, but you're right.. it's not going to convince any politicians.


I stand corrected about anything that i've stated, i always try to know the two sides of a story so that i'll be as close as possible to the truth.
actually you've got it pretty much right... frankly I'm not sure WHAT EXACTLY the french canadians are upset about. but i'm from Ontario, so i'm not exposed to any qualms the francophones may have... and i have to go by what i hear.

I've heard it said that it's about language and cultural differences and their preservation. I know enough french to get by in quebec and the rest of canada has adopted many cultural traits of quebecois.... but does the separist thing have to do with some undercurrent of racism in that quebecois feel they're discriminated against on a federal level?

One reason I don't agree with quebec separation it that in doing so, they aim to enforce the preservation of french language and culture using restrictions... I DO think the language and culture should be preserved, but not to the point of the restrictions that the bloc quebecois party would put on both property and freedom of language. its preservation is a community affair, not a legal affair.

It's my opinion that living in a multicultural country, all the cultures seem to be competing with eachother in regards to numbers. and over lots and lots of time the more efficient and/or larger majority usually consumes the others. i think that's called a melting pot. The case is true around the world with the english language. I suppose if i really loved the french language (not that i love any language in particular) or any other language i'd be a little pissed, but I think i'd understand that I can't force people to speak a certain way, or keep a certain culture. we all just have to calm down and accept it.

[shotobouv]

Is the US somehow to blame for Canada's internal politics?Isn't everything? I am sure "W" will get the blame. He is getting the blame for the tsunami. (it was on the internet, it must be true).:rolleyes:

All you have to do is look at history, American Civil war, Bosnia or is that Yougoslavia, Chechnia, etc.

Is the reason for a seperation economic? Just wondering what the arguments are.

[The Pat]

"One of the reasons why quebecers hated Mr P.E Trudeau was because he gave a hint as to use force if quebec unilaterally seceded.I'm not sure at 100% maybe Pat would enlighten us."

I think they hated trudeau was beacause he declared martial law in canada beacause of the FLQ ,a speratist terrorist group that went around blowing up mailboxes and satues paticualaryly the wolf statue in quebec, which was destroyed sevral times. They had a fair amount of suport but it was all lost when they killed a hostage. Also he himself was a quebecer born in montreal i think so they may have viewd him as a traitor. Also there is a good possibility he fliped them the bird.

as to trudeau taking military action against quebec i dont think it would have hapened as long as they remained as a majority peacefull.

and as to since im sixteen so i shouldnt care its kinda hard when your school is regularily grafitied with meesages like "f--- les anglais" or f*** the english.

I dont realy mind either way and i understand why they would want to seperate, they have a difrent language and are being or at least were being shoved out of the market place by the english.

I find it odd that so few countries would recongize a peacfull referendum, if the majority people arent hapy under your controle they would be more trouble than theyre worth so if they wanted to seperate let them.

the pat

[nalogg]

the majority people arent hapy under your controle they would be more trouble than theyre worth so if they wanted to seperate let them.
The old "if you love something set it free" argument.
usually i'd agree only that in the case of quebec, setting them free means the members of the proposed new country of quebec are subject to even more control and restrictions put in place in an attempt to preserve the french canadian culture/language.

I think that in this case, it's the people scared of assimilation that need to "set it free". I personally believe that the opposite of repression IS cultural freedom... the french-canadians would be free to preserve their culture themselves. Hopefully separists will come to understand that freedom is a better alternative to censorship.

[The Pat]

"Isn't everything? I am sure "W" will get the blame. He is getting the blame for the tsunami. (it was on the internet, it must be true).:rolleyes:

All you have to do is look at history, American Civil war, Bosnia or is that Yougoslavia, Chechnia, etc.

Is the reason for a seperation economic? Just wondering what the arguments are."

Ive never actually heard anyone ever blame the US for the seperation thing, if they were the blame for it any way it would be beacause they feel the canadian goverment is too close with the armeicain goverment.
econmics is one of the main reasons against seperation beacause of the province equalisation deal, where all the money is distuibuted evenly to all the provinces acording to their needs. Quebec gets quit a bit off money through this so lots of people think quebec wouldnt be able to survive on its own.

But others have argued with more developement of its natural resources (pulp and paper, hydro power, mineral deposists) it could survive on its own its one of the most debated subjects on seperation.

The main reason for seperation has been and still is cultural the sepratists feel quebecs distince culture is being slowly killed off. so theyve been puttting in pro quebec culture laws.

The pat

[The Pat]

English isint censored, the law is that french must be predominent on any public sings, also that services must first be ofered in french then english.

im by no means a sepratist but to say they sensor the english isint right. you can but english litrature get english newspapers ect. theyre just harder to find beacause there isint as big a market for it.

The pat

[isi]

Ive never actually heard anyone ever blame the US for the seperation thing, if they were the blame for it any way it would be beacause they feel the canadian goverment is too close with the armeicain goverment.

I guess was wondering why you chose the thread title that you did...

[nalogg]

English isint censored, the law is that french must be predominent on any public sings, also that services must first be ofered in french then english.

im by no means a sepratist but to say they sensor the english isint right. you can but english litrature get english newspapers ect. theyre just harder to find beacause there isint as big a market for it.

I didn't say that they DO
but they INTEND TO if quebec breaks off into its own country.

[shotobouv]

Well, if the focus is on maintaining their own culture, historicaly you can reference, off the top of my head.

France passing a resoulution to ban Muslum head wear in schools.

Germany once having a law about nationalizaton, you could only become a German citizen if you had German blood.

Japan using katagana to denote foreign words. France also was trying to make laws about the influx of new technilogical words into the French society.

Look at Stalin when he was in charge of the Central Asian area of Russia after the Bolshivic revolution and before he came to power after Lenin died. Talk about a messed up cultural area, Stalin was trying to kill the culture and to form the New Soviet Man.

I can see where the US would be affected, since it is a neighbor, in terms of transportation of economic material. I Quebec were to seperate, what would that do to travel and tranportation?

Here is a question. What do you consider your culture to be?

[nalogg]

Here is a question. What do you consider your culture to be?
That's a great question.. one worthy of an entirely new thread, and especially pertainant to us "gaijin" practicing kendo.

My short answer would be:

i have no culture of my own :(
being of mixed blood, scottish and italian, yet born and raised in canada, friends with a lot of kids of eastern european, carribean, indian and asian descent my "culture" it really muddled.... my family has its own traditions and little "rituals" some religion-based, and some not.

[m_french]

if the majority people arent hapy under your controle they would be more trouble than theyre worth so if they wanted to seperate let them.

the pat
Try using that arguement in Belfast, the Left Bank, Cuba, haitti the list can go on and on. As for me if Cali Seperated from the US great! We already have the Eigth largest economy in the world and Ahhhrnolllld could be president.

[kanyil]

Kanil ,i always thought that most of Taiwans inhabitant came from the mainland, i'm not talking about the prehistoric ages.I dunno why but i always felt that taiwaneese were proud of being chinese maybe just culturally i guess(a friend of mine is taiwaneese),as you said i think if China wasn't a dictatorship(eventhough it's not as bad as in Mr Mao's days),the taiwaneese people would feel differently about the subject.
BTW i'd love to visit Taiwan, especially that many great martial arts teachers live there.:)
The Taiwanese have very mixed feelings about the mainland. On the one hand we can't deny the fact that we are ethic Chinese and feel proud at China's growing might, but on the other hand we feel unhappy at China's heavy handed approach to the cross-straights issue as the Taiwanese have a distinctively different culture. You won't find our fist-fightin' judo-throwing politicians in the Chinese parliament. :D (at least they mean it when they say they would fight for your rights)

While it's true that many Taiwanese came from the Mainland during their lifetime (i.e. retreated from the mainland with the Nationalists), the majority of the Taiwanese have been on Taiwan for generations, and the older generation (i.e. my grandparents' generation and before), in particular, are much more fluent in Japanese and have a far closer tie with Japan as Taiwan was formerly a Japanese colony (and weren't treated all that badly by the Japanese, relatively speaking). Most of my older senseis also speak fluent Japanese and Taiwanese, but not Chinese Mandarin.

[Hisham]

That's a great question.. one worthy of an entirely new thread, and especially pertainant to us "gaijin" practicing kendo.

My short answer would be:

i have no culture of my own :(

Don't say that , you got the italian and scotish one plus the NA one ,it's all about doing a bit of research and understanding your past.Take my country for instance ,though it's a small one ,there are so many different traditions sub-cultures and dialects, of course there's a common denominator that says this group of people are moroccans but you know what? it's all relative as every human being is at the same time unique and a copy of others at different levels.
Bottom line the easy thing to say is that i'm a cityzen of a planet called earth :Din other words you're all right for a person living in this day and age IMO.

[Hisham]

The Taiwanese have very mixed feelings about the mainland. On the one hand we can't deny the fact that we are ethic Chinese and feel proud at China's growing might, but on the other hand we feel unhappy at China's heavy handed approach to the cross-straights issue as the Taiwanese have a distinctively different culture. I see what you mean,maybe they should aproach as they do one of the 50 something nationalities (don't remember if it's 53 or 55) more specificly like the muslim Han who live in Ningxia province as most taiwaneese are of han descent,anyway just a thought that i had.


You won't find our fist-fightin' judo-throwing politicians in the Chinese parliament. :D (at least they mean it when they say they would fight for your rights) I've seen that :D on tv , your parliament is for sure a hot spot as all parliament should be as far as talking about issues. Ours is the total opposit ,just thinking about it makes me lol ,if you want to meditate in silence and peace you don't have to isolate yourself on a mountain,come to our parliament and you'll attain enlightenment in no time :laugh:



While it's true that many Taiwanese came from the Mainland during their lifetime (i.e. retreated from the mainland with the Nationalists), the majority of the Taiwanese have been on Taiwan for generations, and the older generation (i.e. my grandparents' generation and before), in particular, are much more fluent in Japanese and have a far closer tie with Japan as Taiwan was formerly a Japanese colony (and weren't treated all that badly by the Japanese, relatively speaking). Most of my older senseis also speak fluent Japanese and Taiwanese, but not Chinese Mandarin. This is what's great about talking to people from different places, you get to know a lot of interesting stuff.Tx for the info:glasses:

[D'Artagnan]

"f--- les anglais" or f*** the english.



I can totally understand why they may write that...

... I have seen French women. :eek:

[nalogg]

I can totally understand why they may write that...

... I have seen French women. :eek:
actually quebec women are the ANTITHESIS of the typical stereotype of french women :D

quiiiite nice indeed

[Hisham]

actually quebec women are the ANTITHESIS of the typical stereotype of french women :D

quiiiite nice indeed
I second that :vampire:

[litige]

Yeah I too second that, being in the Old Capital I get to see my share of beauties. As you can see, I used Old Capital, because Québec was once the capital of Canada. When Jacques Cartier landed in Gaspesia, wich the big peninsula on the map. he named the land Canada. The colony was called Canada and New-France by the french, then came the english, they wanted a share, there was a big fuss, Two Canadas where made, the Upper and Lower. Shit happened, I'll look up my history next time (it's like 5 in the morning). Anyway, thing is the English was in big control, bla-bla-bla, BUT that was AGES ago. Now, what I'm my? It's written in my baptistery that I'm born on the piece of land controled by the canadian government, so yes I'm canadian, and I'm proud to be in this nice country, but I also got cultural heritages, wich are quebecois heritage, and I'm proud of having them, I've also got english heritages (some of our food, wich, I'd like to say, is far from French Cuisine). And surprisingly enough, every province has his difference, Canada is not Québec+The rest off the English Provinces. NO, it's N.-L.+I.-P.-E.+N.-B.+Qc.+Nunavut+Sask.+Man.+Alb.+B.-C.+Yukon+N.-W. Territories = Canada. Our cultural difference is not an argument for dispute, we are all Human, with some cultural background specific to every square meters on earth. So all this "F*** the english" "F*** Canada" "F*** Quebec", is just childish things, altough coming from alduts and old persons who are in the MNLQ (new FLQ) is just plain stupidity. If there are good reasons for us to separate, it's on economics, that's all.

Just to add, I don't know about Pierre-Elliot Trudeau, but Jean Chretien, our last Prime Minister, add plan to invade Québec if the refenrendum was to be in the separatist favour.

[litige]

BTW i'd love to visit Taiwan, especially that many great martial arts teachers live there.:)

Go there during the 13 W.K.C. ;-)

[litige]

I've seen that :D on tv , your parliament is for sure a hot spot as all parliament should be as far as talking about issues. Ours is the total opposit ,just thinking about it makes me lol ,if you want to meditate in silence and peace you don't have to isolate yourself on a mountain,come to our parliament and you'll attain enlightenment in no time :laugh:



Ours not bad too, we get to see important minister put their fingers up their noses for an extremly extended time period, LIVE! We can also see them make fingers at others, and then it's the top story for the week. Good thing all our sessions are recorded and diffused.

[The Pat]

"but Jean Chretien, our last Prime Minister, add plan to invade Québec if the refenrendum was to be in the separatist favour."


Chretien had plans to invade quebec if a referendum passed? I find this hard to believe where are you getting this?


The pat

[Hisham]

I didn't hear about that two :puzzled:

[litige]

I'll try to find my source for the Chretien thing.
But for now I have a MUST READ.
http://members.aol.com/XPUS/ForQCsep.html
pelase read with caution.

[litige]

But just you know, it's written by Americans.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If there are good reasons for us to separate, it's on economics, that's all.
I'd never heard any arguments that seperation would have a positive economic outcome for either Canada or Quebec. The seperatists seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, economically - seperate but yet retain extremely close economic ties.

The main reasons seem to be cultural. I'd bet there's some serious power reasons, too: President sounds so much better as a title than Premier, don't you think?

[litige]

I'd never heard any arguments that seperation would have a positive economic outcome for either Canada or Quebec. The seperatists seem to want to have their cake and eat it too, economically - seperate but yet retain extremely close economic ties.

The main reasons seem to be cultural. I'd bet there's some serious power reasons, too: President sounds so much better as a title than Premier, don't you think?

Yes, maybe, that's what I fear. I don't know if the link I posted tells true things, if yes, then It would be really profitable for the US and the Québec economics, since Canada Depends on Québec economically, the bounds would be still close as you say, but...no more federal taxes, that's a plus, since we do bussiness north-south. the thing is, so much thing can happened if the Quebec would separate maybe it's best to let it like it is. Anyway, I can see the referendum coming, just after our 400th aniversary.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Anyway, I can see the referendum coming, just after our 400th aniversary.
The referendum is always coming. The separatists never accept "no" for an answer. They'll phrase the question any way they can to get a "yes" and of course once the "yes" is received, the course of action is irreversible in their mind. Whereas a "no" is merely a delay until they get a "yes". Very frustrating. What I'd like to see is a clear question, in black and white, very simple terms, and a binding answer. If the province really wants to seperate, let them so long as it's asked and answered clearly. If they don't, lay this old horse to it's final rest.

And if you think a seperate Quebec would mean no federal taxes... bwah! You'll just be paying to different people. And more, I think - isn't Quebec one of the provinces that receives equalisation payments now?

[The Pat]

i think that article lost any credibility it had when it said "the Tory scum the U.S. forced out by the tens of thousands after the Revolutionary War"

i dont think its a very acurate source.

[shotobouv]

The thing about referendums is that you can keep doing them, in some ways it is the true voice of the people. Take it from me they will keep doing referendums until they get what they want. We now have a city funded money pit that took 3 referendums to pass.

Make you wonder if Americans are writing that stuff, I looked but did not read much. It seemed that they were living in the past. If people still thought in the same pattern, England is trying to enslave America again, or what ever. To me it just shows that the people are not in touch with reality today.

If you want to convince me you have to make an argument based on how things will get better now and in the future, not in the past.

I asked the question what makes a culture? Which was related to a question possed in a college class, "what makes a nation a nation?"

A common culture or cultures help make a nation, but can you have a nation just based on culture?

That seemed to be the argument, and that the US would help support them economically, because in seperating they would lose ties with other countries.