Kendos Future - in Japan and the rest of the world

[EzzzE]

Well this is the History Forum, but this seems to be the most fitting place...

What is Kendo's Future?

inspired by the article
http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/web/korea/index.php
i had to ask myself and of course all you out there what you think should be kendo's future. i would like ppl to read the whole article before posting here, as it will answer many questions, and make clear what i am looking for.

ken-do - the sword's-way

the art to win by all means?
the art to kill your opponent with one strike?
the art of the modern art of fencing?
the art of a vigerous fighting skill?
the art of modesty?
the art of self-improvance?
the art of ... ?
to me kendo is mainly the 6th in the list, improvance , every training improvance. The ultimate goal, a perfect and beautiful kendo , never achivable, but the the way to there that counts. thats why it is called ken -_DO_.

i have to admit to the fact that my shiai experience is zero since i'm still a relative beginner. i suppose the shiai (jigeiko) meaning will come to me...

but the contradiction still exists. we watch the the japanese finals, we watch the 8th dan gradings. its kendo alright, but it is different.

imho the momentarily status of shiai kendo is okay, but the amount of aggresivness should not increase. for it is quite a noticable difference in kendo vs kendo matches and kendo vs kumdo matches

koreans are more agressive, more eager to win, (by more, all? means?)
okay a shiai is about winning. so i want to win. but is the spirit of kendo winning?

essentially in an old interpretation - yes. because the winner survies, the looser dies by the others katana. but it is no longer a katana-do. it is a shinai-do. the way of the bamboostick? sound stupid but that is the reallity. so where does kendo today stand? is it about the old style honour highholding, one blow killing way kendo( in a not aggresive idea here), or is it a competing for the fun of it debana, hiki, suriage way? atm we would say there still is a major focus on the one hit killing way. ok there are two points awarded, hooray. why not 5 points? why not 1 point for a okay hit and 3 points for a outstanding technique hit?

where should kendo go? where kumdo is going is clear. but the things i appreciate about kendo consist of a big part in the old things. kendo doesnt have to be 100% shiai. maybe good technique, and a high self esteem , and so on are the true values. what are the true values of kendo?

kendo is the question that lies in between of kumdo and a 18th century samurai. where does the world stand between that? where do you stand?
more shiai? more beautiful kendo?

imho this state (and this may sound funny) offers just the right amount of both. kendo is a deep spiritual meaning. kendo is shiai. it is in a certain ballance of old an new. we still wear hakama but we use shinai instead of bokken(or katana). we don't fight as a bushi would, we wear bogu. it is a thing of a compromise. so is it bad? is a only sportive nature kendo better? or is the opposite a only ritualistic kendo better( somehting like kendo-kata) i think no, because for kendo gradings we need kata ^^.it's a mix.

my humble point on things from a half year kendoka, 7kyu ;) (no grade ^^) under the tutoring of a kendo, kendo kata and iado sensei which i would place more to the : good techniques part of it all, kendo has to adept slightly to the needs of other cultures,-part; and a kendo sensei, who will leave you standing there with an open mouth if he engages with another student in shiai. ( though i don't count him to the "kumdo-fraction", his kendo is nice, his attitudes are very japanese)

[Hisham]

Whenever we talk competition there's always that perverting demon who lurks around the corner,also the difference between ideals and real life mechanics that's attached to it.
IMO the question is would you like a "POP" Kendo ?, does making kendo popular in the world have to be by erasing it's basic values and getting rid of its soul as the example of Judo Alex gave?. Do we want the WKA (which seems to be ready to sell out to get to its goals) to get the upper hand internationally?.I totally agree with Alex about how an "olympianized" kendo would have to be ,which IMO is a nightmarish vision and also about the conclusion of his article.

[EzzzE]

true true, it would be sad to see kendo get 'big in the world' through loosing all its values. i was never interested in martil arts, because it all seemed like: quickly learn tequniques , hit hard, you win. kendo i started because it was so 'deep', there was more to it than just stickfighting.

what will happen if this sucseeds? will it come down to a stickfighting? will kendo/kumdo fall into different styles, schools, pieces again, the state it was before 1900 ? people training old kendo, new kendo, kumdo? another pop-version of something almost sacred? it already has fallen into 2 general 'styles', in which you have a range for own interpratation....

what are the future possibilites and solutions?
kumdo at the olympics, kendo as something different? will there be held seperat kumdo and kendo shiai's ?

how will japan change it's own kendo?
i suppose it would be difficult to have the koreans do what the japanese want, but japan has to set a signal. they have to clearly show what kendo means. kendo must not be bent to fit all aspects of modern life. what alex wrote about kendo having the same funktion as baseball in america, to bring people through or to universitiy, is sorry wrong. there are other ways of helping the talented. kendo must not be instrumentalized.

i am not trying beeing in the way of progress.

maybe the decision has to be made to have 2 kendo's. maybe this is the solution to the problem. then we will have dojo's and dojang, the koreans may happyly claim that kumdo was invented by them, they can sell it all over the world, and people can still decide to train kumdo, OR kendo. the important thing is to make very visible how the two differ. maybe we have to accept that a new style has developed from kendo, not a one to be proud of, but the father has only 2 possibilites: hold in honour for what he stands, even if his son has gone bad, or give up honour and bend. latter wouldn't be very japanese in my understanding.

what dou you all think is a solution?

anybody know how the japanese kendo associations stands on this issue?

[rainmaker]

Few clarification. This forum sounds like Korean Kumdo does not train traditional value and all Korean claims Kumdo is from Korea, and all Korean think we have to go to Olympic. That is wrong !! Korean Kumdo school also teach traditional value, most of Kumdoka also believes Kumdo is orginated from Japanese Kendo, and many Kumdoka does think we shouldn't go to Olympic. Please do not try to divide Kendo and Kumdo all the time. Very minor things are different betweem Kendo and Kumdo. That is all. However, that doesn't mean Kumdo has less traditional value and all try to be commercialized. Main difference is Korean wants to compete harder with Japanese because of historic reason.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

its up to you to decide wether you want to practice your kendo competatively , which is why trying to stop it becoming an Olympic sport is wrong.. people practice Tae Kwon Do as a philosophy and way of life but at the same time they shouldnt try and stop poeple who wish to give it a competative edge...you have every right to want to put kendo into the Olympics... look at karate, many people practice is it a way of life and as a path, but there are also styles like Kyokoshin which accodomate for people who wish to practice it competatively, doesnt mean the two cant exist in harmony

[samurai999]

Few clarification. This forum sounds like Korean Kumdo does not train traditional value and all Korean claims Kumdo is from Korea, and all Korean think we have to go to Olympic. That is wrong !! Korean Kumdo school also teach traditional value, most of Kumdoka also believes Kumdo is orginated from Japanese Kendo, and many Kumdoka does think we shouldn't go to Olympic. Please do not try to divide Kendo and Kumdo all the time. Very minor things are different betweem Kendo and Kumdo. That is all. However, that doesn't mean Kumdo has less traditional value and all try to be commercialized. Main difference is Korean wants to compete harder with Japanese because of historic reason.

Aww man.. I see where this thread is going.... We are reinventing the wheel guys....

Tim

[Hisham]

Aww man.. I see where this thread is going.... We are reinventing the wheel guys....

Tim
Not if people read the article as Ezzze said before posting.

Rainmaker the difference is obvious in the article between the KKA (values) and WKA(whatever works).

[EzzzE]

Few clarification. This forum sounds like Korean Kumdo does not train traditional value and all Korean claims Kumdo is from Korea, and all Korean think we have to go to Olympic. That is wrong !! Korean Kumdo school also teach traditional value, most of Kumdoka also believes Kumdo is orginated from Japanese Kendo, and many Kumdoka does think we shouldn't go to Olympic. Please do not try to divide Kendo and Kumdo all the time. Very minor things are different betweem Kendo and Kumdo. That is all. However, that doesn't mean Kumdo has less traditional value and all try to be commercialized. Main difference is Korean wants to compete harder with Japanese because of historic reason.


i am not trying to impose that on everyone, but the students go where their sensei's go. you can choose if you have some time in the sport, but if it is promoted in a certain way and tought in a certain way, people will learn it that way. and deviding it is not what this thread is about. but as you have stated yourself, kumdo stresses competition, so it has a different character.
and if this is all about a stupid kind of "retaliation" then sorry, this is sad.

btw if you had read the article, you know why i think it will have to devide, if kumdo goes olympic. their would have to be major changes in the character of kumdo.

[EzzzE]

i don't want to devide, 99% of kumdoists probably do and aim for the same thing kendoists do, but you can clearly see that the korean kendo association is trying to impose changes from above. kumdo was before kendo. a fact nobody beleaves but it is imposed from the top. what now if other things are imposed from the leader organization? eg changes necesarry for a olympic participation? at some instance, growing numbers will beleave kumdo outdates kendo, and that a electronical pointing system will have to be standart, and that a point is counted when shinai strikes the target are, zanshin? correct kamae afterwards?? who cares.... these are all just arguments i am restating from the article. so please take the time to read it, and then join the discussion on how a future solution could look like

thx :)

btw why does the wka want to go public so badly? does heavy funding really help the sport? at what price is this funding earned?

[soapdish]

Reading your posts EzzzE it sounds as though you have developed one inherently faulty thesis. That Kumdo and Kendo are different.

The WKA is an unfortunate anomaly. It is sad that its founder was once a greate Kumdo practitioner in the KKA.

I also submit that your analysis of Dr. Bennets article is entirely misplaced. Your concerns frankly speaking arise from your own flawed analysis.

Firstly to reiterate Ken/Kum = sword depending on the country's hanja/kanje pronounciation. Do = Path in both Korea, Japan and China. You first fail to grasp this very fundamental concept.

If you don't then your second inherent flaw of analysis is that you have never practiced Kumdo in Korea, rather you live vicariously through second hand sources. This is fundamentally flawed analysis of the 'divergence' between Kendo/Kumdo as you posit.

I would personally be disgusted if Kendo/Kumdo would be relegated to the Olympics for popular appeal. However this is only the view of the WKA.

I would like you to read another one of my posts earlier :

"Anyway. Anyone ever heard of Aiga Naoki? Yeah strangely enough this gracious practitioner trains in Korea now and then. Yep, he's even friends with Park Sang Sub who was the 2003 Domestic Korean Open Champion and integral member of the Korean National squad. Makes you think dont it? But enough of subtelties:

5. 한국의 검도 스타일은?

미국이나 영국등 구라파 선수들은 물론 한국선수들과의 시합 내용은 일본에서 하는 시합과 별 차이가 없습니다. 한국 검도 스타일과 일본 스타일을 따지지 말고 어느 누구하고 검도 시합을 하든 똑같은 마음으로 임해야 한다고 생각합니다. 한국선수들은 체격도 좋고 힘도 좋지만 특별히 까다롭다고 생각하지 않습니다.
Available at http://www.pentagon.co.kr/gray/main.htm click on the picture of Aiga Naoki Sensei.

Basically this is an excerpt of an interview by a Korean Kumdo player with Aiga Naoki. The question was what do you think of the Korean Kendo/Kumdo style? Aiga Naoki Sensei simply replied, "you know i actually think its a misconception that Koreans are any different in terms of how they practice and compete to us (Japan). Alot of Koreans are well built and quite strong, so I suppose it seems as though that when they compete people remark that they are a different to Japan. Not so, the feeling I get when the compete against us is that their training and shiai style is the same".
This doesn't go to prove or disprove any of your arguments. It just goes to show that alot these misconceptions are often in the eye of the beholder. Here is a gracious champion who after years of experience can perceive no 'difference' in styles. Makes you think dont it?"

Korean Kumdo is competitive for 400000 members. Just as competitive as the millions who practice in the Japanese Kendo Renmei.

Only the small divide and infight as we are doing here. No matter what arguments you try to devise , that is exactly what we are doing. If you look at the IKF, and top members between the KKA and ZNKR there is nothing but cooperation and continuing education between the organisations. They are the ones who are working best for the future of Kendo/Kumdo, your flawed analysis of Korean Kumdo only exacerbates hostility towards Koreans living outside Korea who practice Kumdo/Kendo.

[EzzzE]

i have never stated to be an expert on the field, and i lack the experience of a 8th dan holder who trains in japan and korea. ;)

what i am stating is an overexagerated "what maybe will become".

as i have stated, nobody want's kendo/kumdo to become olympic, but is that decision yours? or the wka's ?

if i am wrong then i am gladly proven right that kendo and kumdo are essentially the same. i don't want to degrade kumdo in any way, or the koreans, jeez i know a korean girl i consider a nice person.


what i am talking about is

1.the article, and what you think about it
2.what you think the future of kendo/kumdo is, eg what it's character is, and should/will be

why does everyone make this discussion into a korea vs japan? *sigh*

can't this be a discussion of : future of kendo/kumdo?

you misunderstand my intents... : /

please to those who have an insight as soapdish has: give us input.

[mingshi]

...blah blah blah...

koreans are more agressive, more eager to win, (by more, all? means?)
okay a shiai is about winning. so i want to win. but is the spirit of kendo winning?

...blah blah blah....

where should kendo go? where kumdo is going is clear. but the things i appreciate about kendo consist of a big part in the old things. kendo doesnt have to be 100% shiai.

...blah blah...
You bloody started it. Baka.
Some people need to read 1,000 times of that article before posting anything.

[EzzzE]

first of all it would help to keep this discussion polite

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzzzE
...blah blah blah...

koreans are more agressive, more eager to win, (by more, all? means?)
okay a shiai is about winning. so i want to win. but is the spirit of kendo winning?

...blah blah blah....

where should kendo go? where kumdo is going is clear. but the things i appreciate about kendo consist of a big part in the old things. kendo doesnt have to be 100% shiai.

...blah blah...


point one:
this is what i have observed in fights between korean and japanese highranking kendokas. there is more pushing and shoving in tsuba-zeriai
and i also state that the goal of shiai is winning, so i don't say by all means is wrong.
the only thing i question is, if this is the right way. is knocking your oponent over in shiai considered nice kendo? i am questioning if the intensitiy and will to sacrife nice kendo for winning kendo the right way for kendo to go?

second point:
considered that things as sonkyo, old style hakama tying are beeing modernized, i asume i can say that kumdo is more modern?


the two things you are picking from the text are very to your favour, but the major part of text you cut away with "blah blah", is what i am talking about

about kendo's future.

why do dan gradings look so different from contest?

you wanted to discuss alex bennett's article? than please do so and don't discuss kor vs japan.

i will restate it again

i want to know what you all think about the changes in kumdo and kendo
what do you think is its future?

[soapdish]

"point one:
this is what i have observed in fights between korean and japanese highranking kendokas. there is more pushing and shoving in tsuba-zeriai
and i also state that the goal of shiai is winning, so i don't say by all means is wrong.
the only thing i question is, if this is the right way. is knocking your oponent over in shiai considered nice kendo? i am questioning if the intensitiy and will to sacrife nice kendo for winning kendo the right way for kendo to go?

second point:
considered that things as sonkyo, old style hakama tying are beeing modernized, i asume i can say that kumdo is more modern?"

I disagree entirely with your first point. The shiais between Korea and Japan are not as entirely aggressive or heated as you think they actually are. Back to my earlier post and quote Aiga Naoki who was the Taisho of the Japanese team believed that there was verly little difference to how the Koreans and Japanese practice and compete. He should know give that he practices in Korea and Japan. Furthermore Ive watched the Domestic Korean Championships where it is hard to discern a difference to the Japanese Championships. It is, and I agree obviously, as Aiga Naoki Sensei says that one of the reason people think Koreans so roughly and have a fast pace about them is because of their size and build, I mean have you seen those guys???? Kim Young Gyu is at least 190cm, Park Sang Sub is the same. These guys are giants! I think you are misconceived inherently in your perceptions.

I can only gauge the intent as to your second point. I think that these aspects of Sonkyo and the traditional hakama were removed because they were cultural edifices of the Japanese past. I am biased here because I am Korean, but I have to say that because Japan took it upon themselves to ravage the Korean landscape during the 1590's and colonize the Koreans during 1910-1945 you would have to understand that there is some hostility to symbolic aspects of Japanse custom and tradition. Thus I think that in the world of Kendo/Kumdo the removal of navy blue hakama to the 'hwarang' uniform of Korea's past warriors was suitable and redeeming. No one here in their right mind should consider that Kendo is anything but Japanese in its modern conception, however the minor change in uniform should be borne with good grace for a past laden with atrocity. The latter no one should ever deny nor forget.

That aside I hope the WKA breaks and crumbles. Its a pity though cause Kendo/Kumdo should be the one thing that fosters unity amongst everyone. Kumdo/Kendo already has at the top levels eg Aiga Naoki being friends with Park Sang Sub and a lot more.

I can't make any predictions for the future of Kumdo/Kendo its up to just turn up and practice!

btw does anyone know if Japan has selected their national squad yet? I know Korea has gone through the processes! Get this also a 4th Dan won the Korean Domestic Open Championship 2004, and the Presidents Cup twice!!

[Hisham]

If i'm not mistaken, Ezzze's point is that most of the members of the Korean IKF branch are for an olympic Kendo, it would be interesting if we could have an idea about how the other IKF affiliates feel about this, and again make no mistake that the shiai rules as you know them now won't be the ones that'll get into the olympic sports realm for the reasons that Alex stated which in IMHO are logical, are you ready to accept that or not?
Ezzze i wanted to tell you the first time i posted here that you should've started this thread at the article section of the board.

[mingshi]

If i'm not mistaken, Ezzze's point is that most of the members of the Korean IKF branch are for an olympic Kendo... blah.
Are you sure you are reading the same article as everyone else?

this is what i have observed in fights between korean and japanese highranking kendokas. blah blah blah...
WTF?!? Now are you not saying you are putting up a kendo vs kumdo discussion????

For the rest of the people, you are only allowed to raise any kendo/kumdo discussion again if you:-

...have actually SEEN someone practicing kumdo in front of your eyes, LIVE.
...are from Korea.
...have not seen some Japanese who shove their opponent, whose aim for practice is to win shiai, etc. etc.

Therefore, do not form your own judgement after reading that little piece of text.

btw I quote people in blah blahs because it is a waste of time re-reading every word of those blah blah. At least I know how to quote properly, so dont complain.

Soapdish: FYI the national squad from Japan was only selected 3 months before the 12th WKC.

[EzzzE]

soapdish:
tzuba-zerai:
well i see you point, i myself am 185cm and moving 85kg, so if i wanted to force poeple from our kendo club i would get 90% of them to the floor, i just don't think the idea of breaking someones kamae through knocking him over is very kendo-like.(besides, to score a point while he's down is hard;) ) i understand that a 190 90kg player against an 165 60kg player will have an clear strength/weight advantage.
modernisation:
what you say is true, but doesn't exclude kumdo maybe beeing open to more change?

mingshi yes we are talking about the same article, i started this thread because of your avatar....

maybe, just maybe the olympics and kendo future discussion is not entirely discussable without kumdo? ^^

err if we are only able to discuss this with mentioned points, go ahead, find the few people here and , eh let every one else have no opinion, ...but somehow i feel haveing no discussion is somewhat odd at an discussion board.

sry hisham didn't see the article board

[Pokie]

oh wow...kendo/kumdo...not much of a big deal here..we get along well :)

[Hisham]

Are you sure you are reading the same article as everyone else?
First of all chill out ,relax and make way to reason ,second of all yes i know how to do the process called clicking on a link and the other called reading.The question is did you understand the article ?if you don't agree with some or all the points Alex made, you should've posted about it that way things would've gotten clearer for you and everybody.

btw I quote people in blah blahs because it is a waste of time re-reading every word of those blah blah. At least I know how to quote properly, so dont complain. About your Blah quoting technic, if you don't want to reread something or point to it ,don't quote it period. May be you don't see it as disrespectfull but some people do,for me it's no kenshi attitude.There's a way to disagree without lashing out at somebody.

For the rest of the people, you are only allowed to raise any kendo/kumdo discussion again if you:-

...have actually SEEN someone practicing kumdo in front of your eyes, LIVE.
...are from Korea.
...have not seen some Japanese who shove their opponent, whose aim for practice is to win shiai, etc. etc Not being from some place doesn't mean you're not allowed to discuss things related to it plus nobody here said that he/she's an expert.
If Ezzze is wrong or anybody out here for that matter, post your arguments why as Soapdish did, if you don't feel like it then just ignore this thread.

[mingshi]

mingshi yes we are talking about the same article, i started this thread because of your avatar....
Whats wrong with my purple nasu?!!!???? You herbivore!! Sort out your English and your kendo first!!!

[Musha]

Do you ever answer some-ones post without either criticism, nit picking or sarcasm Mingshi? :D. I bet you think about things to say to people all day long at University or wherever you go everyday :).

[soapdish]

"soapdish:
tzuba-zerai:
well i see you point, i myself am 185cm and moving 85kg, so if i wanted to force poeple from our kendo club i would get 90% of them to the floor, i just don't think the idea of breaking someones kamae through knocking him over is very kendo-like.(besides, to score a point while he's down is hard;) ) i understand that a 190 90kg player against an 165 60kg player will have an clear strength/weight advantage.
modernisation:
what you say is true, but doesn't exclude kumdo maybe beeing open to more change?"


Point taken regarding Kumdo practitioners from Korea being open to change.

However i still think you miss the point re taller players, I think what Aiga Sensei was getting at was that when he was in Tsuba Tserai or like situations against the Koreans there wasn't that big a difference to being in tsuba zerai with a Japanese player. I don't think Korean players try to knock down smaller players with physical height and advantage. I still believe you misconceive that point.

I know its a small point but things like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EzzzE
mingshi yes we are talking about the same article, i started this thread because of your avatar....

started because Hisham mis-quotes the source. Hisham referred to the fact that most Korean IKF members are for the olympics. Personally I disagree the reference to that support comes from Bennet Sensei who quotes the managing director of the Korean Kumdo Association. That certainly represents the view of one member but not the whole. It certainly has weight but is not a blanket statement for "most Korean IKF members". Therefore I submit Mingshi was entitled to her retort.

Its these little things which cause hiccups and tension. You can't just make rash statements like this cause it does cause problems. The Bennet article was inherently tied to the Kendo/Kumdo debate which had at its thesis the question of olympic potential.

That aside, after careful reflection I would fear Kendo/Kumdo being an olympic sport. However taking the quote from the Managing Director his intent for Kendo/Kumdo being an olympic event is to get wider attention and funding. Perhaps the funding Korea receives is adequte considering that a 400000 member association can really give the million member Japanese renmei a run for their money. I think the managing directors' quote was directed to smaller renmeis. However the sad fact is that olympics do ruin the pure aspects of martial arts eg tae kwon do. I submit that if Kendo/Kumdo was to be olympics there should be absolutely no compromise between how it is practiced now and how it should be shown as an olympic event. After all they did not change the rules for Tennis did they? I use the example of tennis because it is has wide appeal, and the reason why they changed Tae Kwon Do was because it was not 'objectively' simple enough (please correct me if im wrong). Thus I have no doubt that they would do the same for Kendo/Kumdo.

At the end of the day Mishams quote shows one thing. We (as in the members) really need to make our position clear regarding the olympics. I personally would not like it to become an event if it comprimised the traditional shiai rules. I agree with Korean Managing Directors views that Kumdo/Kendo needs wider appeal, but the means are important. We the members are the means of making Kendo/Kumdo more popular and appealing. But then again as long as we practice conscientiously then there's nothing really to worry about is there?

[Hisham]

"soapdish:
That certainly represents the view of one member but not the whole. It certainly has weight but is not a blanket statement for "most Korean IKF members". Therefore I submit Mingshi was entitled to her retort.
You're absolutely right, I meant to type KKA admins instead of members, sorry for that mistake, but as far as Mingshi's retort i stand by my last post, she would be intitled to it if i had a flaming history.
Her last reply to Ezzze isn't mislpaced tho.
Tx again for the correction.

[mingshi]

Do you ever blah blah blah...
Hey you! STOP STALKING ME!! You creepy freak #@$&%#!!!

[Musha]

zzz still that again :tired:

[Hisham]

Well yu set yourself up Musha :laugh:, just kidding:)

[Musha]

I'd be impressed if it was some thing original :D, people always resort for immature things when they run out of things to say.

[rainmaker]

By nature, men just cannot grow up .... Word "Mature" is created by woman which man are nothing to do...

I'd be impressed if it was some thing original :D, people always resort for immature things when they run out of things to say.

[kuzu70]

I can't believe I read this whole post. I am spent!

[Hisham]

By nature, men just cannot grow up .... Word "Mature" is created by woman which man are nothing to do...
hehehe typical woman thinking ,if you mean by that playing video games till we die then i agree :D

[rainmaker]

UMMM, I am not a woman... I guess your problem is not about being mature but you really need to get a life. Well, I guess that includes me too... :D


hehehe typical woman thinking ,if you mean by that playing video games till we die then i agree

[Hisham]

UMMM, I am not a woman... I guess your problem is not about being mature but you really need to get a life. Well, I guess that includes me too... :D
Yeah i guess it's about time i grow up :ponder:,on second thought nah:D

[ISSAC RU]

I m personaly more into the form of kendo instead of
eager to win all the time..
conquer your enemy 's spirite and mind is the final goal.

[ikumdo]

Reading your posts EzzzE it sounds as though you have developed one inherently faulty thesis. That Kumdo and Kendo are different.

The WKA is an unfortunate anomaly. It is sad that its founder was once a greate Kumdo practitioner in the KKA.

I also submit that your analysis of Dr. Bennets article is entirely misplaced. Your concerns frankly speaking arise from your own flawed analysis.

Firstly to reiterate Ken/Kum = sword depending on the country's hanja/kanje pronounciation. Do = Path in both Korea, Japan and China. You first fail to grasp this very fundamental concept.

If you don't then your second inherent flaw of analysis is that you have never practiced Kumdo in Korea, rather you live vicariously through second hand sources. This is fundamentally flawed analysis of the 'divergence' between Kendo/Kumdo as you posit.

I would personally be disgusted if Kendo/Kumdo would be relegated to the Olympics for popular appeal. However this is only the view of the WKA.

I would like you to read another one of my posts earlier :

"Anyway. Anyone ever heard of Aiga Naoki? Yeah strangely enough this gracious practitioner trains in Korea now and then. Yep, he's even friends with Park Sang Sub who was the 2003 Domestic Korean Open Champion and integral member of the Korean National squad. Makes you think dont it? But enough of subtelties:

5. 한국의 검도 스타일은?

미국이나 영국등 구라파 선수들은 물론 한국선수들과의 시합 내용은 일본에서 하는 시합과 별 차이가 없습니다. 한국 검도 스타일과 일본 스타일을 따지지 말고 어느 누구하고 검도 시합을 하든 똑같은 마음으로 임해야 한다고 생각합니다. 한국선수들은 체격도 좋고 힘도 좋지만 특별히 까다롭다고 생각하지 않습니다.
Available at http://www.pentagon.co.kr/gray/main.htm click on the picture of Aiga Naoki Sensei.

Basically this is an excerpt of an interview by a Korean Kumdo player with Aiga Naoki. The question was what do you think of the Korean Kendo/Kumdo style? Aiga Naoki Sensei simply replied, "you know i actually think its a misconception that Koreans are any different in terms of how they practice and compete to us (Japan). Alot of Koreans are well built and quite strong, so I suppose it seems as though that when they compete people remark that they are a different to Japan. Not so, the feeling I get when the compete against us is that their training and shiai style is the same".
This doesn't go to prove or disprove any of your arguments. It just goes to show that alot these misconceptions are often in the eye of the beholder. Here is a gracious champion who after years of experience can perceive no 'difference' in styles. Makes you think dont it?"

Korean Kumdo is competitive for 400000 members. Just as competitive as the millions who practice in the Japanese Kendo Renmei.

Only the small divide and infight as we are doing here. No matter what arguments you try to devise , that is exactly what we are doing. If you look at the IKF, and top members between the KKA and ZNKR there is nothing but cooperation and continuing education between the organisations. They are the ones who are working best for the future of Kendo/Kumdo, your flawed analysis of Korean Kumdo only exacerbates hostility towards Koreans living outside Korea who practice Kumdo/Kendo.

i agree with u hole hartedly. u said everything i wanted but was having a hard time putting into words. so much going on in my head right now! writing a master thesis is a b@#$h!

i don't mean to ride on ur coattails either.

[ikumdo]

You bloody started it. Baka.
Some people need to read 1,000 times of that article before posting anything.yeah ur right people need to read it as many times as possible. great aticle. it clarified a lot of things for me. actually i think it's one of the most objective pieces of writing i've read in quite some time.

p.s. i know ur sensei. i met her a few years back in hong kong. i was put in contact with her by my sabum in korea who met in 2001 at the big tourny in hong kong. anyway ida's great. i learned a lot from her during that short time. i was really a beginner thin.

i think i fell in love after the first time she hit me with her jook do/shinai. something about a woman hitting me with a stick that's agreeable.

sorry about ickiness

[samurai999]

So this DID turn into a kendo/kumdo comparison thread. *sigh* Reinventing the wheel guys... Reinventing the wheel.

Tim

[Seoul Man]

Just thought I'd chime in with my opinion. If you want to see kendo fall from grace, make it an Olympic event. The article referenced earlier, "Korea: The Black Ships of Kendo," reminded the reader about the consequences that befell judo. For me, history seems to be repeating itself but this time the main character is taekwondo (WTF variety). Sure, the Olympics has greatly increased the popularity of taekwondo but it has also drastically decreased the quality of the martial art.

In order to make it more accessable to a larger audience, the requirements of taekwondo have been dumbed down to ridiculus levels. If you practiced taekwondo say 20 years ago, you would laugh at how little is required of practitioners today. It's seen as a children's martial art, a very unintended result, I'm sure, of the WTF's method of popularization. As a result, taekwondo gets very little respect in martial art circles.

If you look at the current crop of competitors outside of Korea, their techniques are all crap (and I happen to live outside of Korea). I think it's because every country practices just to beat the Koreans and not for the sake of the technique itself. Additionally, it seems that all the techniques taught to students are geared towards scoring points and almost no one is teaching the difference between the sport and the martial art (the differences are subtle but are significant enough). Kim Un Yong, former president of the WTF, stated that there is no difference between the sport and the martial art, though even a lowly practitioner like myself can see that there is a difference in attitude, philosophy and technique to say the least.

Taekwondo has undergone a number of scoring changes, since its Olympic inception, to make the bouts more exciting to the casual viewer - sound familiar? It's a differential scoring system that awards points for hitting different targets under different circumstances. Taekwondo fights use to be so beautiful - good technique to aspire to and learn from; awesome strategy that requires a little insight (and patience) from the viewer to understand; and the clash of indomitable fighting spirit between two honorable fighters. I'm just a beginner but these are some of the things I love about kendo and miss about taekwondo.

I won't even touch the problem politics going on in taekwondo but it seems that honor has all but abandoned taekwondo and that hurts. Maybe I'm being a little melodramatic but I think my newfound interest in kendo fills the need within me that used to be filled by taekwondo. When people practicing kendo speak of honor, discipline, loyalty, etc., they mean it! It's not just a marketing ploy to attract new students but a very integral, actual part of training. For true martial artists, taekwondo is now only a shadow of what it used to be. I would very truly hate to see the same thing happen to kendo because of a well-intentioned desire but poorly implemented scheme to popularize it.

Vive la resistance!

[Hisham]

I agree with SeoulMan and TKD is a pretty nice example, if kendo has to be "macdojofied" then to hell with that kina popularizing process.
IMHO it's like the difference between a fruit that takes its natural time to grow and another one that's grown fast and has a perfect shape but has no taste or can't compare to the first when eaten.

[mistabushido]

if i am wrong then i am gladly proven right that kendo and kumdo are essentially the same. i don't want to degrade kumdo in any way, or the koreans, jeez i know a korean girl i consider a nice person.


Indirect racism.

[joekc6nlx]

By nature, men just cannot grow up .... Word "Mature" is created by woman which man are nothing to do...

It's not that we can't grow up, it's that we don't want to grow up. One of my favorite quotations is "I may be getting older, but I refuse to grow up." After all, we don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing.

I reject your generalizations and substitute my own........:silly:

[Michiyo Akimoto]

I feel this does not bode well:

From the article:
“We intend to introduce electronic armour to assist in umpiring. We also intend to make kicks valid for scoring points, and also an accumulative point system to encourage positive and successive attacking. We are looking at ways to make it more interesting.”(26)"

[bullet08]

I agree with SeoulMan and TKD is a pretty nice example, if kendo has to be "macdojofied" then to hell with that kina popularizing process.
IMHO it's like the difference between a fruit that takes its natural time to grow and another one that's grown fast and has a perfect shape but has no taste or can't compare to the first when eaten.

just like beer.. homebrew, in general, tastes better :)

what kendo needs is sort of grassroot approach, instead of mass commercialization like TKD.

pete