Why is Kendo a Martial Art?

[mingshi]

Terribly bored with old threads I'll start this going-to-be-long discussion here. Don't know why people here don't do "general chat" any more...? Anyway, I would like to have your point of view on the following sub-questions:-

1) What is your definition of "Martial Arts" and/or "Budo"?
2) In what way does Kendo fit into this category?
3) Why is/isn't Judo a Martial Art?
4) Is it just some sort of narcissism to call ourselves Martial Artists?

Elaborate.

[alexpollijr]

There we go

1) "Martial" to me means 'militaristic' or 'with military applications'. Therefore a Martial Art is a set of techniques which are (or were) used for warring purposes.

1-B) "Budo" would be, in my opinion, a philosophy extracted from the dilemmas of the warriors of yore, without the actual bloodshed.

2) Kendo Kata is derived from Kenjutsu and therefore had military applications so it's martial. Shinai kendo is a sport built over the foundations laid by the martial aspect.

3) Because modern judo is a sport. The techniques taught today could hardly be used to dispose of an enemy in a full-fledged fight.

4) Why would that be? If you work taking pictures you're a photographer, if you work making food you're a cooker and if you practice a martial art you're a "martial artist". But I don't fancy that word, mind you. 'Kendo student' would be better. Or Karate student, or whatever.

Cheers

[nodachi]

1. I would call a martial art something that is based in fighting and not necessarily just war.

3. I therefore would include Judo in the martial art category. One could even make a stretch and say that wrestling is a martial art. I have difficulty doing so because of all the entertainment industry has done to make wrestling more of a joke, but for those who compete in real wrestling at the high school or college level, it might be a martial art.

4. I agree with the preference to call ourselves Kendo students opposed to martial artists. Martial arts are beautiful in form and style and all that stuff, but I don't think the term artist fits. Unless of course you are doing martial arts for the sole purpose of the beauty of the movements, but most of us I think do it for too many reasons that are not this to call ourselves artists.

Sorry for the crappy, maybe not clear post, I am tired and hungry

Grammar and spelling in a tag team match against tired and hungry...

ding ding ding

TKO Grammar and spelling go down after being smacked by a chair and table designed to break in a show stopping crack of dramatic flair!!!

[Jerry Wellbrock]

I think kendo is different for each of us. Martial Art refers to military art of suited for war or warriors. Budo literally Bu means "to stop a spear, and to quell violence", Do means the Path, the Way or the Truth. Sport to me is just a game for sake of the game. The All Japan Kendo Federation says the purpose of kendo is:

To mold the mind and body
To cultivate a vigorous spirit
And through correct and rigid training
To strive for Improvement in the art of Kendo
To hold in esteem human courtsey and honor
To associate with others with sincerity
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself
Thus will one vbe able tolove his country and society
To contribute to the development of culture
And to promote peace and prosperity among all people

I think kendo's past is martial art
Kendo's present is sport and
only if one pursues deep enough in themself Budo:confused:

[John W]

Please excuse my being blunt but IMHO:-

1- Martial art(s) is a series of technqiues and manoeuvres taught to people in order to make someone else- take a dirt nap/ bite the dust/kick the bucket/become worm food or to subdue him/her. It is also a tool used for fitness and to mold a disciplined mind. And of course for self defence.

2- Kendo is an martial art in my opinion- for the simple reason that you could kill or serioulsy injure someone else with these techniques. (lets face it- you could).

3- Don't know too much about Judo so I could not comment on this.:confused:

4- I agree with alex here except I would prefer to be called a martial artist who studies kendo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Jerry Wellbrock
Budo literally Bu means "to stop a spear, and to quell violence", Do means the Path, the Way or the Truth.
That's a common misconception. The "bu" in budo is the same bu as in bushi, it means war or things martial. The "quell violence" thing probably comes from another kanji that sounds the same. It's usually used by fluffy bunny martial artists to justify their own qualms about learning codified violence.

Besides, these arguments always boil down to the rather iffy logic of translating the Japanese into English and then arguing ad nauseum over the english translation. The fact of the matter is that budo is a word many Japanese people use to denote Japanese martial arts of any sort, including gendai budo and koryu. Some may use it to differentiate the newer, more gentrified arts. But it always encompasses judo, kendo, karate-do and kyudo. And it's normally used to refer to Japanese-derived arts. So while I consider wrestling and boxing to be "martial arts" they aren't "budo".

As for the usefulness of judo in a real-life situation: if you don't consider it useful, clearly you've never practiced it. I was in exactly 3 streetfights as a kid, I used judo to win every one. Judoka have the same advantage as kendoka - they've used their techniques for real, against a resisting opponent. Plus if they train serious they're tough as nails.

[mingshi]

Bu the Kanji is directly translated as Martial. But when you go into the most literal sense it does mean "to stop a spear" (in which the spear is a substitution for the noun of attack). This is how the character came from. Don't what to go into Chinese philology too deep, but I'd say you can't explain a Kanji phrase by literally interpreting eveything.

But it does highlighted the point that, Martial Arts should be useful as self-defense techniques.

Back to Kendo the Martial Art. Problem is that while you are saying you learn The Way of The Sword... you still don't know how to use a sword. What is the difference between that to western fencing (which everyone says, it's a sport). Kyudo is The Way of the Bow, and you are really learning how Japanese Archery works. Pick up a Bow and arrow you can shoot if you've learn Kyudo. Pick up a Sword... Oops.

Say, when you're on the street, and attacked by a theft etc. Of course the best defense is to run away. But if you're under attack, what do you think you can do, as a Kendoka? At least people who have learn Judo can do a few throws and kicks, but what about you (or us)?

If Kendo cannot be use as self-defence, why are the Japanese police learning it? Well, obviously Judo is practiced by many many police, and military special forces around the world (Russian President Putin is a Godan in Judo). It has its practical uses. So how can Kendo be used practically (NOT moulding vigourous spirit again!!!) ?

I personally dislike the AJKF Purpose of Kendo statement. It's too ambiguous --replace the Kendo terms with virtually anything it still make sense (eg. try Football or Cookery). The whole thing still sounds like an excuse that we've just got Kendo back after the War: "Hey, we do Kendo. It's a sport for cultivating spirit, not for learning how to wield a sword and become samurai!!"

About the Martial Artist thing... it traces back to the Kanji subject again. We all use the term Kendoka to describe ourselves, but do you know that "Ka" means exactly as the "-ist" at the end of an occupation. Eg. Artist=Geijijsuka, Comic Artist=Mangaka, Author=Sakka...... So by saying you're a Kendoka, you actually practice Kendo as a job...?

This is (my) Thought of The Month :)

[gill]

Originally posted by mingshi

Say, when you're on the street, and attacked by a theft etc. Of course the best defense is to run away. But if you're under attack, what do you think you can do, as a Kendoka? At least people who have learn Judo can do a few throws and kicks, but what about you (or us)?



Kendo as a 'sport' would not be too practical if you were attacked when walking down the street, but it also teaches you about distance, timing, opportunity and awareness which would give you an advantage over someone who just came out of a gym class. And if all else fails a well projected kiai would probably also do the world of good (especially if it was right down their eardrum....)

:D Gill

[Neil Gendzwill]

The Japanese police train either judo or kendo. There's a lot of knives in use by Japanese criminals and occasionally even swords. The police who train judo tend to get cut more in those situations I'm told, as kendo teaches maai and judo does not.

Kendo is budo because of the spirit and intent behind the training.

[ben]

I know of 'real life' situations where kendoka have used only kiai to discourage attackers.

The lack of obvious practical applications for kendo in 'real life' (no kicks and punches, "what if you're not carrying a stick at the time", yada, yada) is what keeps a whole lot of MA dickheads out of kendo dojos IMHO.

b

[Ares2907]

ever seen the long nasty thingos that the Japanese riot police carry? There's a reason that there are so few violent protests in Japan.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by ben
The lack of obvious practical applications for kendo in 'real life' (no kicks and punches, "what if you're not carrying a stick at the time", yada, yada) is what keeps a whole lot of MA dickheads out of kendo dojos IMHO.


I have the same opinion. It's a real bonus feature as far as I'm concerned.

[etherknot]

I don't know.

What if TWO kendoka encounter each other in some dark dreary alley.... Do they both go down into sonkyo before getting busy?

[Gorget-the-Frog]

What if TWO kendoka encounter each other in some dark dreary alley.... Do they both go down into sonkyo before getting busy?

Of course not, they would extend their ki as to judge the others "fighting potential" and then the weaker, instantly realising his defeat would;

(i) Dedicates his life to improving so he can defeat the mysterious stranger, or
(ii) Quit kendo in shame
(iii) Commit seppuku in (more?) shame

...or they'd just go get a beer.

Sean Borycki

[hamish]

The 'bu' in budo is usually translated as some flowery stuff about stopping the lance and creating harmony, but I believe that to be more of a post-war justification for budo's peacetime relevance, given its connections with rightists and the militarists during and before the war.

Apparently the original meaning is more along the lines of stopping (your enemy) _using_ the lance. A slight change in nuance, but quite significant all the same.

Hamish