Implementing No Mind

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

There have been many threads about how one can practice/implement the concept of No Mind or Mindlessness during kendo..

However, from what i have read in both The Book of 5 Rings and in Takuan Soho they say that you can only excercise No Mind when you know everything aabout kendo.. in the case of the 5 rings the only way you can master the void is if you know all the other 4, and Soho says that only the total beginer and the master can have no mind (because the begginers mind never stops to think about stance , tenouchi etc.. because he doesnt know it, and the master doesnt think about it because he knows it all ). So is it not true that one can only begin to think of no mind when they have a complete mastery of kendo (which is something you could probably on attribute to 7 or 8 dan kendoka)

[Reubino]

I've always been fascinated with this concept. I believe it's something you cannot force to happen or even exclusively teach. It’s a bit like when I was first learning to drive. I remember there was so much stuff I had to remember about road rules and driving. The thought of it made me get headaches when I was training with the driving instructor. Now after four years it’s all becomes instinctive. Your body/mind reacts intuitively to any given situation. Fear and doubt disappears then all is left is simple harmonisation. Well maybe not all the time. ;-) But it helps to have a clear and focused mind to start with.

[Hisham]

']There have been many threads about how one can practice/implement the concept of No Mind or Mindlessness during kendo..

However, from what i have read in both The Book of 5 Rings and in Takuan Soho they say that you can only excercise No Mind when you know everything aabout kendo.. in the case of the 5 rings the only way you can master the void is if you know all the other 4, and Soho says that only the total beginer and the master can have no mind (because the begginers mind never stops to think about stance , tenouchi etc.. because he doesnt know it, and the master doesnt think about it because he knows it all ). So is it not true that one can only begin to think of no mind when they have a complete mastery of kendo (which is something you could probably on attribute to 7 or 8 dan kendoka)
Implementation IMHO will be gradual, for instance when you start learning ,the no mind state is at lets say 0% ,you're strugling with the basics in general, as you continue your training journey that percentage starts to go up little by little, you have to keep up the training knowing that there's no 100% or in your words, complete mastery of kendo, it's all relative.What i'm trying to say is that you don't jump from a stagnating mind to a no mind state directly it's a long process of spirit and body training, the Hachi dan(s) themselves went through it and still are.
Don't worry in due time your mind will flow as water meanders on earth and errrr! uhoh i'm getting carried out :D

It's good that you started this thread ,it's an important subject in martial arts and life in general as Reubino's example shows.

[hamish]

The whole point is not to really think of 'No Mind.' Zen has nothing to do with kendo really, anyway, so I wouldn't get too carried away with Takuan and so on.

Just concentrate on doing kendo and it will come naturally, call it 'no mind', 'the zone' or whatever.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

im not sure, i still think No Mind is fundementaly linked with kendo.. a large part of kendo is to do with reaction times, and through making your actions instinctive and cutting out excessive thought you can speed up your reaction time immensely.. plus in this show i watched they were going through the Hachidan examination, and in the written paper you have to write about some Zen/Bushido saying they give you , i think the one in the show was something like "mind is sword" or something like that...

[darklord]

I think it closely related to what we call 'our instinct'.

[hamish]

Cutting out excessive thought is just a result of training until you don't need to think about it. Nothing mystical there. A lot of top athletes draw connections between their athletic activity and Christianity, but it doesn't make it so just because they say so.

The same for Zen and kendo. A lot of Zen terminology is used in kenjutsu/kendo texts because of its influence on Japanese society at the time, not because of some fundamental link between the two.

The point being, don't stress it, as has been said above, keep training and the rest will come with time. Thinking about the Zen/'bushido' mystical stuff doesn't help your kendo, hard training and time in the men does.

[Charlie]

Thinking about the Zen/'bushido' mystical stuff doesn't help your kendo, hard training and time in the men does.

Oh, I dunno, Hamish, I sometimes find it helpful myself. I mean, one of the reasons - well, THE reason I like reading or thinking about Zen is, on one level it's just very practical advice on athletics (and maybe on life in general; I'm really only interested in the martial arts part). I mean, Zen says in sometimes mystical, sometimes succint ways some of the same things sports psychologists are trying to say, some of the things you have said. You're right in that there's no substitute for simply training hard but for some reading Zen or sitting might make for good mental work, especially for those that still want to be doing kendo while on the train/behind the desk/whatever.

*shrugs* I think Zen says basically what was said above: that through mastery of a skill it becomes natural and thoughtless. Where I part ways with Zen is thinking this same logic applies to the emotional, spiritual or intellectual life.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Wether you call it Zen or you call it "the zone" , it doesnt actualy make a difference, but dont forget that sports physchology and the terminology we use all came after the actual term "no mind"... so we might as well respect the original term and use it correctly

[Neil Gendzwill]

From my pov, I see a lot of beginners who read Go Rin No Sho and think it makes them experts, when they don't have the background or experience to understand even a fraction of it. Even for experienced kendo players, a lot of it isn't applicable - it's really a lot of guidance for members of Niten Ichi Ryu.

My advice is the same as Hamish's - apply sweat, it'll come eventually.

[kuzu70]

In my experience I do the best kendo when I try to do the best I can. I know that sounds redundant and self-explanatory, but let me give an example.

When I fight a 6-dan or 7-dan sensei during keiko, I don't care about winning or losing and I go balls out and attack, seme, and do the best I can. If I fight someone in a tournament or I fight someone that I feel I should not lose to, my mind seems to interfere and I cannot perform my best kendo. I start thinking, "I can't let him hit me," or "I should use this waza," and it never works.

Top kenshi often talk about saying their mind was blank during a shiai, or do not remember performing a certain waza.

[wezzyfish]

Basically all "no mind" is is when you can completely shut out the mind and think of nothing, only acting, living in the now and not the near past or future. It can be used in all aspects of life to improve, but it can really be experienced in martial arts, which is why I think there is such a close relation, plus the influence zen had on the samurai at the time as was mentioned before.

In kendo though, I think it is important to keep the mind working at first. Decide which waza to perform, and how the match will go. Plan it in your mind, but as soon as you or your opponent move, forget the plan and just react. Action is 100% more powerful than mind, because action manipulates in the now and promotes change. Thus the mind is only a necessary illusion which gets in the way most of the time.

[JByrd]

*shrugs* I think Zen says basically what was said above: that through mastery of a skill it becomes natural and thoughtless. Where I part ways with Zen is thinking this same logic applies to the emotional, spiritual or intellectual life.
"If I am asked what Zen teaches, I would answer, Zen teaches nothing. Whatever teachings there are in Zen, they come out of one's own mind. We teach ourselves; Zen merely points the way."
- D.T. Suzuki, An Introduction to Zen Buddhism

[Old Warrior]

This is an interesting thread because the concept is something that is far easier to intellectually grasp, than to experience. Non budo activities sometimes refer to the process as "being in the zone". After more than a decade of fencing, taking private lessons twice a week, there were many actions that I practised so often, that everyonce in a while, I found myself doing them without any conscious thought. For instance, a thrust to my chest would always be met with a parry riposte; which, if parried would always be met by my stepping back and doing another parry, even if there was no blade to deflect.

But, I have found a difference between things I do "defensively" verses those things that I do "offensively". For instance, when I face certain people in a kendo bout, that I know well, I have a mental book on them. I know what actions they like and who is just waiting for a men attack, so he can counter. Almost always, I have a plan in mind that I try and execute. This is completely different from facing a stranger, where my thinking almost always involves trying to sense an opening and read my opponents reactions to my movements. Sometimes, it is more like physical chess, than letting my unconscious mind take over the actions.

I have concluded that I am far too new to kendo, to have any meaningful opinion on this subject. Maybe in a decade I will have something worthwhile to add.

[not-I]

Mushin, no-mind, flow and the zone, are different terms for the same fundamental phenomenon, i.e. action with full awareness but without conscious thought. As such, there is nothing mystical about it. It is just one, albeit rare, mode of human experience, which can be cultivated through training.

Mushin can be conceptualized rationally, but it can only be understood through experience, precisely because it is non-rational. "Just train hard, and it will come," is true, but just leaving it there tends to mystify the phenomenon even more.

Mushin is not absent-mindedness, as the latter is characterized by a lack of awareness of one's immediate surroundings, and, if anything, by too much thinking.

Mushin is not the same as instinct. Instinctive actions tend to be purely reactive, cognitively proceeding from the limbic regions of the brain and triggered when in need or danger, e.g. a fear/fight/flight situation.

No-minded actions, however, proceed from an utterly calm and highly concentrated state of mind, and are proactive as well as reactive. Higher brain regions are being employed, but redundant processing in the frontal lobes is by-passed. Basically, the cognitive processing time between perceptions, thought, and action is drastically shortened by eliminating rational, discriminating, thought -- in a sense, by eliminating the thinking, judging "self." There is still thinking and judging going on, but no one is doing the thinking and judging. Perhaps we can say it is "intuitive action."

There are different levels of mushin: from losing yourself in a game or task, to completely dissolving the subject-object distinction. Mushin can be, and most likely has been, experienced by everyone to differing degrees. But it can also be cultivated through concentrative practices, which are also forms of brain-training e.g. awareness training, meditation, martial arts, or the various Ways.

Hence a beginner might experience a chance glimpse of mushin, because s/he lacks a knowledge of technique, but a master will be capable of simply switching into that mode and going beyond his/her accumulated technique.

Ch'an/Zen Buddhism coined the term mushin, but it holds no monopoly on the phenomenon itself. Hence "no-mind" or "flow" can be applied to a practice such as kendo or a field such as "sports psychology" with no apparent philosophical consequences, which is fine.

Zen goes beyond this stance by pursuing through meditation an investigation of experiential mushin, leading to a realization (satori) of the essential emptiness not only of the self, but of all phenomena. The consequences of this realization extend to all aspects of life. This is also fine, but not everyone's cup of tea. Kendo certainly doesn't go that far.

Takuan Soho was a Zen monk who, besides many other things, applied Zen insights to swordsmanship in a few letters to Yagyû Muneori, commonly known to readers through Wilson's translation The Unfettered Mind. These writings represent neither the whole of Zen, nor the whole of swordsmenship, only Zen
applied to swordsmanship. As for Musashi's work, it is primarily a manual of his own particular school and not a universal treatise.

It is easy to form a concept of what the Fudôchi Shinmyô Roku or Go Rin No Sho are about, but they are not easy to put into practice. As the sempai here have said, this comes only with consistent practice. A conceptual understanding can be helpful, but only blood, sweat and tears (i.e. shugyo) will get you more in tune with mushin.

[Masahiro]

Zen has nothing to do with kendo really Thank you, finally someone who's not sucked into "zen and bushido are one" crap. You go Hamish!

[not-I]

Originally Posted by Hamish
Zen has nothing to do with kendo really


Thank you, finally someone who's not sucked into "zen and bushido are one" crap.Slogans are easy to throw around, but unqualified by definitions or argument, both of these are equally false. Hamish already revised his original statement and i don't recall anyone ever having claimed that "Zen and bushido are one."

Zen and kendo are two separate practices. They have no formal connection. You need no knowledge of Zen to do kendo, or vice versa. It is important to point this out, but it is an over-simplification to flatly deny that kendo has no spiritual aspects or that Zen (or Shinto or Confucianism for that matter) has left no traces in the language and ritual trappings of kendo.

Again, conceptual understanding can sometimes be helpful, but one shouldn't get caught up in mystification. You can think about not thinking, but that's obviously not not thinking. Only practice yields mushin, whether in kendo or in Zen.

[Charlie]

Suzuki, I'd like to note, eagerly asserted Zen had no dogma, no pedagogy, no rules, and that simply isn't true. His was a unique but not lone kind of Zen, one at odds with most of the Zen community (except the quasi-Zen community created in the west in part because of his work).

If I understand Zen correctly, what it says is that part of the reason we do evil is because we have layers of conflicting emotions and ambitions that constipate our natural ability to do good, that we are born pure and through adding a personality we screw up that original person. ("Show me your original face, the one you had before you were born.") Zen devotees spend the rest of their life trying to get back to this original person, to undo, in effect, the tapestry that life has woven into them. As a Christian who believes in sin, and the conflict of good and evil that exists both in my own mind and in the spiritual forces acting on me, as well as the cycle of sin, redemption and forgiveness from my Creator, I find I disagree with Zen on that score.

In other words, Zen would say, "Look, through practice, you can cut a pure, straight men. Your dealings with other human beings should likewise be pure, straight, and without any ambition other than to conduct yourself with ease." I just think men is men and people is people, not the same gig at all.

Rant mode off, this is probably more than what the thread asked for!

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I disagree totaly, i believe that Zen and kendo are inextricably linked, since some people, for whatever reasaons they may have, use words like "in the zone", "blood sweat and tears" or "plain hard work" they are failing to realise that all of these phrases are routed in Zen practices which predate even the english language , thus it is neccesary not simply to dismiss stuff like "bushido or zen" as being mystical mumbo jumbo, but as the original terms and practices for the frame of mind we put ourselves in today




In the book Zen and Japanese Culture it states that

"When life is not intellectually and therefore consciously conditioned but left to the inner working of the Unconscious, it takes care of itself in an almost reflex automatic fashion"

This seems to me to be very reasonable ...We should trust in our beings to know the correct movements.
By moving guided by our unconscious we may discover the instinctive ability of our bodies . When most people play sports, they do it with the sole aim of winning and gaining victory over their opponents, what sets kendo apart is that it is not practiced for these aims alone, and it embodies the ideals of Budo, which are once again different from the run of the mill "sweat and hard work" methods of excelling in sport, since you cant just get ahead in Kendo through sweat and hard work (because much of it is strategic)

. In the book it goes on to say

"the thing of first importance for the swordsman's personality. He is to give up all desire for name and gain, all egotism and self-glorification, he is to be in accord with Heavenly Reason and observe the Law of Nature as it is reflected in every one of us."

"as soon as one cherishes the thought of winning the contest of displaying one's skill in technique, swordsmanship is doomed. To play a sport while desiring for gain can make one very nervous. A person might wonder if he or she will ever attain greatness and this wondering will take away from their ability to concentrate on the sport. The moment of intense concentration is the moment when a perfect identification takes place between subject and object, the person and his behavior."


Thus it is clear that Kendo is different from normal sports in that it holds differrent values from them, vallues which stem from Zen, making it INEXTRICABLY LINKED WITH ZEN PHILOSOPHY

[JSchmidt]

'] making it INEXTRICABLY LINKED WITH ZEN PHILOSOPHY
In your opinion, that is...

[DCPan]

']I disagree totaly, i believe that Zen and kendo are inextricably linked, since some people, for whatever reasaons they may have, use words like "in the zone",

Well...I experience Mushin all the time when I'm driving and have to avoid idiots who change lanes on the freeway or merge without doing a head-check....Does that making driving Zen?

:wink:

[not-I]

']i believe that Zen and kendo are inextricably linkedIt's not an either/or question. Of course Zen has had an influence on kendo philosophy and certain rituals. But so have Confucianism, Shintoism, and militant nationalism. Certainly, there are many similarities between kendo and formal Zen practice, but there are no formal or institutional links, except in religious dojos, of which there are no longer many. Therefore, any connection between Zen and kendo can only be a personal and spiritual one. You and i might believe that Zen and kendo are linked, but nobody has to. Zen, almost by definition, can be applied to any activity, but it is of course easier to apply it to an activity with similar cultural and philosophical roots.

Suzuki, btw, was writing about Zen and swordsmanship in general, not specifically about kendo, and he romanticized his account a good deal, partly because he was not completely innocent of participation in the said wartime nationalism. Besides, most of the examples he sites are from a time before modern kendo even existed.

As i wrote before, mushin (no-mind) is a Zen term (which Suzuki sometimes translated misleadingly as the "Unconscious") but Zen claims no monopoly on the phenomenon. Anyone can experience it, regardless of their religious beliefs. It is not a sectarian experience, it's a universal one. Saying "mushin is a Zen word, therefore kendo is inextricably linked to Zen philosophy" is a false deduction.

As a practicing Zen Buddhist, i would be the last to say that Zen is "mystical mumbo jumbo." But just talking about it is often mystical mumbo jumbo, which i think was the point some people were trying to make.

I may see a strong connection between Zen and kendo and agree with the phrase ken zen ichinyo, but i don't believe any other kendoka has to (and they wouln't have many historical reasons to do so anyway). Besides, in the secular culture we live in, talking about Zen and kendo tends to put people off and lead to misconceptions of both.

[Future Head]

As far as mushin as concerned, it seems to be a Zen way to describe a mind state that, like not-I said, not only happens to people who are not Zen practitioners, but is probably common in higher-level sports. From what I understand of it, while I have yet to achieve mushin during kendo (I'm still very much a beginner), I've experienced mushin on occasions when "hitting the zone" in swimming, connecting perfectly with a baseball, and even maybe while driving on the highway.

[Nanbanjin]

Thank you, finally someone who's not sucked into "zen and bushido are one" crap. You go Hamish!

"Implementing no mind"

I probably looked at this one for much the same reason as people slow down at traffic accidents.

I too find people who crap on about connections between zen and kendo are annoying. Maybe I'm just spiritually corrupt.

"Zen has nothing to do with kendo really, anyway"

A refreshing outlook, but from what little I know about zen (or kendo for that matter) I can't help but feel that kendo does have at least a bit to do with zen. When I was visiting Fukui a seventh dan instructor took me to a Zen temple and I distinctly remember him telling me that zen buddhism and Kendo were deeply linked, but only at a very high level, and that many eigth dan instructors had spent time at the temple we were visiting.

Just try looking up 座禅 and 剣道 together in Google. I guess for people who it means something to it really means something. You could also say that there is a connection between kendo and inyohgogyohhoh 陰陽五行法 because of references to inyoh in kendo-kata. Whatever tickles your fancy.

[Hisham]

I tend to agree with Not-I's point of view ,IMO the no-mind or water like spirit ....etc concept whatever the name chosen for it isn't an exclusive property of Chan or Zen budhism ,many other school of thought which specialize in the mind exploration have pointed to that phenomenon in a way or another, also we can't say that kendo has no connection whatsoever with the environment it was "born and brought up" in and saying that "zen and bushido are one" to mean that you've got to be a Zen practitioner to be a budoka is IMO false, i think that pragamtism is the way to go, if Zen has something that might help my kendo practice well i'll take it, the same as i don't know taking a course in Body mecanics to gain a specific knowledge but not to become a physical therapist.

[Masahiro]

Originally Posted by Hamish
Zen has nothing to do with kendo really
Slogans are easy to throw around, but unqualified by definitions or argument, both of these are equally false. Hamish already revised his original statement and i don't recall anyone ever having claimed that "Zen and bushido are one."

Zen and kendo are two separate practices. They have no formal connection. You need no knowledge of Zen to do kendo, or vice versa. It is important to point this out, but it is an over-simplification to flatly deny that kendo has no spiritual aspects or that Zen (or Shinto or Confucianism for that matter) has left no traces in the language and ritual trappings of kendo.

Again, conceptual understanding can sometimes be helpful, but one shouldn't get caught up in mystification. You can think about not thinking, but that's obviously not not thinking. Only practice yields mushin, whether in kendo or in Zen.
I will try to do this in a fashion that is as painless and polite as I know. 1st, "I" (noticed how quotation marks can be used at times to EMPHASIZE, and not simply just to quote) don't recall denying that kendo and zen share certain common denominators. 2nd, if you can understand the sentense contained inside the parenthesis then you already know what I am going to say. "kendo and zen are one" isn't a direct quate from "someone" or "anyone", I was using the quotation marks to emphasize my irritation with certain persons' false guided notions. While I often find myself speachless after reading your posts, from the insights and knowledge that you have to offer, I also believe there's been a mistake made on your part this time. (After all no one is perfect) I find the finishing result of your well expressed messege echoing what I conveyed in one sentense. I guess that is the beauty of knowledge, knowledge always being versatile and favorable to those who use it concisely and well intentioned. Don't get sour though o.k? I like you Not-I. And I am always pleased to have a "conversation"/discussion and diagreeing without arguing and getting read from the neck up with anguish. I await for your reply,

Masahiro~ 2nd year Pre-med and Rhetorics (pursuasive arguments) Duquesne University student.

[Masahiro]

"Implementing no mind"


I too find people who crap on about connections between zen and kendo are annoying. Maybe I'm just spiritually corrupt.


Maybe I am "spiritually corrupted" as well. Anyways, I will just leave it at that.

[grasshopper_r2]

Acually its simple, thats why its hard. Don't think about it, just let it happen.

[Musha]

What I think is that many people practice kendo for its different benefits. People practice kendo in different frames of minds that lead to different goals.

Some people practice kendo because they like Japanese history. They want to experience and learn the way of the Japanese warrior in the 1600s and understand more about what they read by practising the martial art.

Some people want to get fit in a way they feel is best for them. Maybe they feel sports are too competitive and learning kendo which they have never tried to learn and have never understood before is more interesting for them.

Some people do kendo because they like the competition and achievements they can achieve from kendo. They might have done other martial arts or Western sword fighting and see kendo as an extension of that.

Lastly some people who practice kendo do it for the spiritual side. I think kendo does have a deep connection with Zazen training. I believe Zen is being at one with your body and kendo helps you do this. Practice over and over again endlessly can be done with both kendo and Zen meditation. Breathing and posture can also be practised in both.

I don't think Zen helps your kendo because they are two different things but being interested in Zen like the other reasons above which people are interested in kendo can make kendo more worthwhile for you and will lead to your goal..

[Charlie]

Question:

Does any other sport or martial art in the world have a jargon or language that effectively describes the phenomenon of performance the way Zen does? I have heard boxers and wrestlers talk about "heart," meaning guts and endurance, and fencers talk about tempo, and baseball players talk about hitting in near-mystical terms (it's why Yogi Berra is seen by many as an American koan-spouter*), and weight-lifters talk about "the sweet spot," "the zone," and runners talk about the high, et cetera, but does any sports language anywhere in the world describe as effectively what happens in physical action the way Zen does?





*Among Berra's most famous: "How can you think and hit at the same time?" Sounds like kendo, doesn't it?

[JSchmidt]

Baseball, very much so..more 'modern' language, but many of the thinkings and approaches to hitting are the same...

Jakob

[DCPan]

Masahiro~ 2nd year Pre-med and Rhetorics (pursuasive arguments) Duquesne University student.

And your point is? :wink:

LOL...you know what Not-I is professionally, right?

How many Asian pre-meds do you think there are on this website alone?

Don't mean to be mean...but I just had to respond because I was pre-med once....

[JByrd]

Baseball, very much so..more 'modern' language, but many of the thinkings and approaches to hitting are the same...
To me the link is instantaneous spontaneity. Some activities provide the luxury of deliberate, sequential, thought. Some activities (like batting, or Kendo keiko) require real time analysis and action. The idea of knowing and acting in an instant is where the principle of rejecting any clunky intellectual intermediary comes in handy.

The rejection of intellect does have an impact outside of activities requiring instantaneous spontaneity, I think. We are often tempted to use intellectual devices (like rationalization) to avoid doing what we know should be done. The practice of instantaneous spontaneity (or Zen, if you please) can make us more aware of the phenomenon where the mind deceives the Mind.

[Nik.Koch]

In order to receive mushin, there is no commen concept to do so. My personal experiance was, that I was in that state of mind several years ago at a national team training for two fights. I can not remember those fights, but my oppontes had no chance at all an were beaten 2 points in less than 30 sconds. This was told to me by other kenshi who watched the fights. I personally talked about this experiance with a 8. DAN Kendo Master. He told me, that he did not received mushin. He is not living any more.

Hard practice only is NO garantee for mushin! Thinking of is NO garantee for mushin to even get it once!

One should practice Kendo AND have knowledge about the spiritual background. If this two comes together, there is chance for mushin.

There are no words to describe the feeling, when you are in the state of mushin. But it is the most impressive experiance in my live.

Gambate Kudasai
Nik

PS: I never had mushin again since that time!

[Musha]

I'm not sure if mushin exists in kendo or any other martial art or action in daily life as people here describe.

What do people actually think the term means? To unconsciously do kendo?

Here is an article on Munen Muso (No-thought and No-thinking)

'What I want to discuss next is the preceonception that one's spiritual condition during meditation is devoid of any thought and thinking. As in the case of the use of strength in the lower abdomen, there are large number of people so called believers who misunderstand the concept of "no-thought and no-thinking"
These people make the mistake of literally interpreting the term no-thought and no-thinking as meaning without thought and not thinking of anything. They lament that no matter how they try, they cannot get rid of their thoughts or the act of thinking. In such cases I say, "Drink some sake and go to sleep; I am sure you will be free from thought and thinking".
Once the mind is unified and thinking subsides, it is natural that we should hear the sounds which would otherwise remain inaudible.'

[Anjin-san]

my £0.02

Your brains a computer, thinking about tactics or whatever eats up processor time. Thinking about nothing allows you to use all processing power for observing whats going on and reacting to it, so you do it better when nothing else is being thought about and can devote all your resources to your autopilot responses to a given situation.

It works for me :)

[Masahiro]

And your point is? :wink:

LOL...you know what Not-I is professionally, right?

How many Asian pre-meds do you think there are on this website alone?

Don't mean to be mean...but I just had to respond because I was pre-med once.... Acutally I don't know what his profession is, would that be important? it doesn't matter to me if he's a doctor or a lawyer or a garbage man. I gave reference to my major kinda like you would say to someone in a conversation "I really like to bowl, bowling is what I do in my spare time" or like "Pre-med and rhetoric skills are my thing." just a reference. Also, I don't think too much of "pre-med" students, being one myself and having known and know so many (just as you said so many Azn are all pre-med) I've discovered that being in pre-med isn't that big of deal, however, why you choose to do something is more important. At least that's what I believe, because I think "why" you choose to do something will play a very important role in "how" you do it. No offense taken D.C! don't worry, I am not so "sensitive" like others. <cough, cough>!! O.k. now, don't flame me and read into my words people! just chill . .. >_<

[Nanbanjin]

And your point is? :wink:

LOL...you know what Not-I is professionally, right?

How many Asian pre-meds do you think there are on this website alone?

Don't mean to be mean...but I just had to respond because I was pre-med once....

Reminds me of an old joke I heard when I was a kid.
This might not translate from Australian English, or over the passage of time. No offence to any "pre-meds" out there, but someone's bound to appreciate this so I can't resist.
Children look away now.

Q: Why do they call them "meds"?

A: Because they're stuck up c&#ts.

God that takes me back. I can remember a friend's mum telling me that one as if it was sometime early this afternoon, but it must have been a good twenty years ago at least. I still find it funny.

[Infinity]

Reminds me of an old joke I heard when I was a kid.
This might not translate from Australian English, or over the passage of time. No offence to any "pre-meds" out there, but someone's bound to appreciate this so I can't resist.
Children look away now.

Q: Why do they call them "meds"?

A: Because they're stuck up c&#ts.

God that takes me back. I can remember a friend's mum telling me that one as if it was sometime early this afternoon, but it must have been a good twenty years ago at least. I still find it funny.
nice one nanban

[not-I]

"kendo and zen are one" isn't a direct quate from "someone" or "anyone", I was using the quotation marks to emphasize my irritation with certain persons' false guided notions.
[...] Don't get sour though o.k? [...] I await for your reply...
No worries, Masahiro, i've no reason to be sour. If i misconstrued your post, sorry, but please keep in mind that straw man one-liners are easy to misconstrue.

Anyway, now your cv has gone and disrailed the thread. :wink:

[DCPan]

Acutally I don't know what his profession is, would that be important? >_<

Yes, because he is a professional lecturer on Zen Buddhism.

FWIW, my graduating class started with 200+ pre-meds...by senior year in college, it dropped to 25.

LOL....

[hyuna]

From the perspective of Zen, is mushin "all or nothing"?

That is, imagine someone walking down a city street, unconciously walking around obstacles and weaving around people. Few adults do this "mindfully," actively planning a route between people and actively looking for puddles and trash and other things to be avoided. Usually this is something that we "just do," although it certainly is possible to walk while actively thinking about the process. There is planning involved, but little or no recollection of who was walked around or what trash was stepped over, despite the fact that one must certainly have been aware, at some level, of it all. So there is no "lack of awareness," there is proactive action, and the conscious mind is uninvolved in the behavior. So this action seems to meet the requierments of "mushin" in the context of the act of walking, itself.

But just because the mind is not devoted to walking does not mean that the mind is not active. One can be very focused on something while walking and aware of oneself while walking.

Of course, it is possible to be concentrating so intensely that one is no longer capable of "unconciously" avoiding puddles and collisions with other people. But, nevertheless, it is also possible to be thinking about something without it affecting one's ability to do these "unconscious" acts.

The reality is that most of our acts in life are compound, not simple. Right now, I am thinking very actively about the meaning of the words I am using in this posting. However, I am thinking not at all about the grammar, spelling (except for words like "grammar"), or the action of my fingers on the keyboard (as my gramatical and spelling errors, and typoes, may attest to).

Am I not experiencing mushin because my mind is active? Am I experiencing mushin because my fingers are "just typing," making up for things like sticky or difficult to press keys even without my conscious intervention? Or is there a level at which I am experiencing it and a level at which I am not?

This is, of course, directly related to kendo because kendo is also compound. We talk about mushin in kendo as if there is simply mushin or there simply is not. But as beginners we have to think about everything: foot placement, balance, posture, hand position, breathing, where to look, etc, etc etc. Consequentially, we can do nothing. Over time, one by one, these things become "more natural" and we perform things without thinking, and yet actively aware of our surroundings (our footwork adapts to cracks, bumps, dips in the floor without conscious thought).

Is this ever increasing mastery of technique unrelated to mushin? Is it approaching mushin? Or is it accomplishing mushin on some levels but not others?

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

once Kendo movement has moved from the realm of the perceptive and calculative into the realm of instinctive and intuative, then perfection is acheived..

of course you can do Kendo without ever worrying about Zen or whatnot

but why reject something that can only benefit and add to your kendo skill?

[Nanbanjin]

nice one nanban
I don't think anyone else gets it.

[JByrd]

From the perspective of Zen, is mushin "all or nothing"?
Great food for thought, Arthur. Here's my $.02 USD.

Have you ever been so absorbed in something that you forgot everything else, and time slipped by unnoticed? You were so focused on it that you forgot all else, including the fact that you even existed?

Usually, my mind seems to have many trains of thought going at once. My attention skips around among them in bits and spurts. Some of those trains of thought involve my self-image; what I think of myself, what I think others think of me, etc. Those trains of thought remind me of myself, and my existence.

When I am totally engrossed, I have only a single, continuous, train of thought. The trains of thought that remind me of myself are forced out, and my concept that I even exist disappears because I am not thinking of myself. That is the egoless state, which I equate with mushin (no mind). The Zen masters would give a student an unsolvable puzzle (koan) so the student would become so engrossed in finding the solution he would forget that he existed. Kendo keiko can be used for the same purpose; your opponent is the puzzle.

What is the connection between mushin and Bushido? Why would such a state be useful to a warrior? The samurai lived with the knowledge that they could be asked to fight and die on a moment's notice. If in combat they had a single train of thought directed at their enemy, their idea of self disappeared. Even if they died, they would not experience it first hand. After all, without the self, who is there to fight and die?

Such a state is also useful for the nonwarrior. When we stop thinking about ourselves, we become our true selves. Maybe this involves more belief than can be accounted for without invoking "religion," but I think our true selves are our best, most beautiful, selves.

Best regards,

Jon

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Its quite simple really,

The Buddha himself stated that in order to meditate efficiently the monk must first remove the obstacle of an unhealthy body,, he does this by staying healthy keeping his body pure.. this leads to "unfettered" meditation

Yet at the same time Meditating and keeping fit re NOT the same thing

Just as the monk must remove the obstacle of the imperfections of the body in order to practice meditation

The kendok must remove the imperfections of the mind in order to do kendo
, by freeing the mind from "stopping" or "getting stuck" you are removing an obstacle which hinders the progress of any Kendoka (embodied in the poisons of kendo)...

yet at the same time No Mind and kendo are NOT the same thing..


Although they are still bound to each other, For one is like a traveller walking along the path ( the kendoka) and the other is the helper pushing the obstacles and thorns away from the path of the traveller (removing the obstacles of mind)

[Nanbanjin]

nice one nanban
They mustn't have that brand in the US.

[Infinity]

They mustn't have that brand in the US. i would say most who post here are (pre-pubescent) males from the us and dont know that 'med' is a brand name for tampon. but then the joke wouldnt work with 'tampon'. its not funny when you have to explain a simple joke to the ignorant.

[Nanbanjin]

I don't think we use the term "med" much to refer to medical students in Australia. I am pretty sure that "Meds" are tampons in Australia only.
The term "stuck up ****" might be an Australianism too. Any non-Australians out there understand what it means?

[ben]

I got it and I laughed (on the inside). It just took me about a week to get to the end of this thread. I personally like how the double entendre is, when read one way, an adjective and a noun, and the other, a verb and a noun, with the word "they're" being the very neat pivot on which it all spins.

Maybe they're not laughing because they're all more mature than us...?

b :P

(Apologies for being way OT)

[ben]

The US psychologist Mihayli Csikszentmihayli (sp?) coined the term "flow" to describe a state where certain awarenesses that we usually consider essential to survival are not present: awareness of hunger, thirst, danger, time, and so on. He also recognised that occasionally very intense experiences of "flow" seemed to be without thought, although this was not central, as far as I know, to his model. He also noted that this state was a kind of "intrinsic motivator", that is, people who experienced flow regularly from their chosen activity, be it ballroom dancing, rock-climbing, performing surgery or being engaged in scientific research reported that the sense of reward was so strong that they would pursue this activity with or without the receipt of external motivators: i.e. money, fame, praise, recognition, etc.

All of which overlaps with "mushin", but does not totally encompass it. Mushin is not just a fleeting by-product of an expert practitioner's being challenged to perform at their highest level (an approximation of Csikszentmihayli's definition). I agree with Not-I that it is also a state that can be trained, so that one can enter into it deliberately: a state that is present *prior to* such performance. This, to me, is the meaning of mokuso, that we try to step out of our small everyday mind and do kendo with a big, non-personal mind. In fact it is the meaning of all kendo training as we still do it, especially things like kakarigeiko, kan/shochu geiko, senbon suburi, etc. If this were not the case, then we would just concentrate on practicing winning waza and then go to the gym for cross-training to improve our muscular power. Mushin is very much attached to being without ego IMHO.

b

[Andoru]

That's very interesting indeed!

[ben]

I was going to start another thread but then I thought I'd bury this little observation here where few will read it ;).

Before going for 5-dan my teacher told me to stop moving my kensen so much. He said it was possible to read something of my intention by any exagerrated changes to my kamae. But I found it very hard to stay still. Eventually I was able to (mostly) stay still and noticed a direct improvement in my concentration and also the seme that I was projecting: people seemed to be more intimidated by someone who moved little but could still launch energetic attacks when necessary. So this was I thought the benefit of maintaining a strong, stable chudan.

But tonight at training (yes, 'at training' not 'whilst sitting re-reading Gorinnosho'!) I realised there is another benefit of a simple chudan. It creates the conditions necessary for "musoken". Musoken is a term I read was used by Nakakura sensei in place (perhaps) of mushin and munen-muso. I like it because it collapses the sword and the mind together without distinction, and saves a lot of misunderstanding ("Whaddya mean I've got no mind? Where did it go? Am I dead?" That kind of thing.) If you move your kensen about it both engenders and evidences thought. It shows that you are weighing up your opponent. It also releases tension. If you do not wave your shinai about it is possible for the mind to settle. Both allowing the mind to settle and not dispelling tension leads to the potential for musoken, a state that is calm and yet capable of decisive action. Musoken is not, like mushin implies, a private matter that is going on inside you and connected to an absence of something. It is also the correct functioning of "ken", the obligation you have in kendo to act.

So this is what I think I realised: that chudan was chosen as the fundamental kamae in kendo because of its potential for allowing mu-shin/so/nen/soken to arise.

b

[Lucien]

Thanks for sharing that excellent insight, Ben.

I would like to share another 'While I was at training last night story'.

We were going mawarigeiko in a very crowded dojo and I was about to fight against my sensei.

Before we started I expected him to walk forwards, and me to reverse, so that we would have more space. Everone had been doing that all evening.

Instead he let out a huge ki-ai and attacked.

After the ji-geiko I realised that I habitually take a moment to think about how I can best approach a particular opponent. However, his ki-ai completely shocked me out of this. I had to react instinctively to his attack, and to the rest of our training together. It was a really exciting encounter and I wasn't displeased with my performance (what little of it I can remember).

I did the same thing as my sensei did to my next opponent with the same result.

FWIW, I am going to use ki-ai to stop thinking about what I am going to do before I do it. Is this mushin, I don't know, but it helps.

[kuzu70]

So this is what I think I realised: that chudan was chosen as the fundamental kamae in kendo because of its potential for allowing mu-shin/so/nen/soken to arise.

b
In theory, would not any kamae have potential for musoken? I am not sure if chu-dan no kamae has more potential for musoken than any other type of kamae. I am a chu-dan kenshi myself, and would like to validate the chu-dan kendo, but I think all kamae are valid.

[ben]

In theory, would not any kamae have potential for musoken? ...

Of course. I didn't mean to imply that chudan was the ONLY way to manifest musoken. I should have said that i believe it to be the kamae that makes it easiest to have an experience of musoken.

I do believe however that each kamae has a different 'personality' as a result of a mixture of things: their strategic function, their aesthetic appearance or "body-language", the mindset required to make them successful, and so on. Hence I see jodan as arrogant/extroverted/active, and gedan as self-effacing/introverted/passive. This does not mean I see people who use these kamae as such, I am talking archetypically here.

Chudan, being the 'middle way' as it were, does not signal one's personality (and therefore one's intentions) to an opponent. Therefore it is closest, I believe, to being invisible, to having 'no kamae'. It is neither passive nor active, neither aggressive nor submissive.

b

[kuzu70]

Chudan, being the 'middle way' as it were, does not signal one's personality (and therefore one's intentions) to an opponent. Therefore it is closest, I believe, to being invisible, to having 'no kamae'. It is neither passive nor active, neither aggressive nor submissive.

b
Thank you very much for your thoughts ben! I find your analysis of kamae very intriguing. I have never thought about kamae having implications of being passive or aggressive.

[Vortex]

I have yet to attain no mind in the dojo. Will I ever ? I dunno. The closest I have ever come to it, I think, was while I was scuba diving last year. Usually when I dive to around 40 feet I can have my tank last for around 30 or 40 minutes depending on what I do on the dive ( workload ). The dive I did once when I think I had a no mind situation was when I remember just swiming and kicking and breathing and the only way I can describe it was that I was "in the zone" I made that tank of air last for a little over 90 minutes. I honestly remember having no thought in my head that dive. Check my pressure gauge now and then but that was it. Does it relate to kendo? Possibly on a mental level of of some sort but thats as close as Ive come to a no mind situation...

[Martino]

I seem to really hearing the human brain is the most resource intensive origin, both in terms or oxygen and energy (food).
So going on that premise and Vortex diving experience, a state of no mind can return up to a 200% increase in endurance. Naturally interaction with another person will most probably not allow for such a margin.

That or someone pumped 3X as much air into Vortexs tanks than they should have had. :)

[Vortex]

or just upped the O2 percentage on me....

[Ursamajor]

To me, "no-mind, mushin, or zone" is all about achieving a level of practice and experience in which you don't worry about what you are doing, but just are. I have experienced this in other non-martial arts abilities such as archery, marksmanship, hunting, sports, and military. I am far from achieving this in Kendo, as I am still struggling just doing a basic men strike with any form other than the clumsy big guy.

[Shazzanzzz]

This is from a Hachidan sensei:

不動心(no desire at heart)、果斷力(decisiveness)、消除四病(overcoming) 驚 (shock), 懼 (fright), 疑 (doubt), 惑 (desire)

You go to a state of mind where you don't think anymore, when kendo is just purely a reaction.

[Vortex]

Sounds like alot of work, but it also sounds like something I am willing to work at.. Even if it takes a lifetime, which it just may in my case...

[bob138]

I look at no mind as allowing the mind to work faster than the body and letting the body play catch up. This doesn't make you faster. The difference in speed actually comes from effeciency in movement, not from thought. Your body is only so fast and the only way to improve it is practice and to find the most pragmatic efficient route for your energy, not find a new state of mind. Mushashi wasn't trying to be cryptic or mystical with his descriptions. His intro says that his book isn't the answer, merely the questions you need to ask yourself until you can answer them. Almost every sentence ends with, you must know this and practice it hard. Plain and simple: Practice=understanding. It's like anything in life wether it be building a house or playing guitar, you have to do it over and over again to learn to master it. All in all, kendo, zen, christianity, taoisim, muslim, catholic, hindi, protestant, mormon are all connected. Not by underlying principals or beliefs, but by the fact that we are all humans in search of answers that we can only answer ourselves.

bob

[Old Warrior]

I look at no mind as allowing the mind to work faster than the body and letting the body play catch up. This doesn't make you faster. The difference in speed actually comes from effeciency in movement, not from thought.
I don't agree. I see it as creating reflex pathways that allow movement without conscious thought. It is considerably faster when you body reacts without your having to think.

Your body is only so fast and the only way to improve it is practice and to find the most pragmatic efficient route for your energy, not find a new state of mind.
True, but the issue is when the impulse to move is triggered. If it happens without conscious thought it is considerably quicker.

It's like anything in life whether it be building a house or playing guitar, you have to do it over and over again to learn to master it. All in all, kendo, zen, christianity, taoisim, muslim, catholic, hindi, protestant, mormon are all connected. Not by underlying principals or beliefs, but by the fact that we are all humans in search of answers that we can only answer ourselves.

And the real reward comes from the searching. But the only way to get to "no mind" is to train your body to move without specific conscious thought. That takes great effort and endless repetition of basic movements.

[bob138]

Im gonna preface this by saying that I am playing devil's advocate a lot here, more trying to think all over the topic. I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong or worse that I'm right, merely trying to bring up points to discuss so all can walk away with more to think about. Especially me:) So please don't take offense if I disagree. Thanks



[QUOTE=Old Warrior]I don't agree. I see it as creating reflex pathways that allow movement without conscious thought. It is considerably faster when you body reacts without your having to think.


The only flaw I see with this is that even if you are the quickest to react you are still reacting. If there is no stimuli then there is no reaction, what do you do if the other guy is waiting for you to strike so he can react, turns into a slow fight. So I think I'm misinterperating what you are saying.

Now what I think you are saying is that the swing itself should strive to be a reflexive movement but the reason for the swing should not. The reason being the more important of the two parts. If it is just an empty practiced swing out of a kata then it's worthless, as katas are designed for one very specific situation, where as a practiced swing from sparring is situationally adaptive.

This is one of the huge benifits of kendo over other martial arts. I've been at empty hand schools that don't spar or only do point sparring. It's sad. It's like learing to build a house by just swinging a hammer in the air a thousand times a day and doing a sawing motion a thousand times a day. If you don't understand how to apply these motions to actualy building then you've got nothing but the ability to swing a hammer and move a saw.

Heh, tangents.

Back to topic.

Please be constructive whilst ripping my thoughts apart:)

bob

[Old Warrior]

The only flaw I see with this is that even if you are the quickest to react you are still reacting. If there is no stimuli then there is no reaction, what do you do if the other guy is waiting for you to strike so he can react, turns into a slow fight. So I think I'm misinterperating what you are saying.

Now what I think you are saying is that the swing itself should strive to be a reflexive movement but the reason for the swing should not. The reason being the more important of the two parts. If it is just an empty practiced swing out of a kata then it's worthless, as katas are designed for one very specific situation, where as a practiced swing from sparring is situationally adaptive.

I think you are more engaged in devil's advocacy than advancing the discussion of this topic. I may be a relative Kendo beginner (shodan), but I spent 10 years studying karate and then 15+ years as an epee fencer. Each discipline has movements that need to be learned until they become part of the fabric of your person. The reflex is triggered by the visual stimulation of a situation that has been practised so many times that the response is automatic.

I am working on many of these reflexes now; such as tsuki is always met with a shoto block and an instantaneous men cut. When my opponent comes forward so his shinai crosses my shoto, I immediately, push his blade to the right and strike kote. There are many other reflexes I am trying to establish.

Now, someone may still be faster and may even provoke a response that they are anticipating, but I am working hard to build a library of reponses to certain visual stimuli. If I see something and interpret it wrong, I will get hit. So, a large part of Kendo is training the eye to read and interpret the adversaries cues. Developing a sense of distance and timing is crucial to triggering the appropriate response.

[DCPan]

Each discipline has movements that need to be learned until they become part of the fabric of your person. The reflex is triggered by the visual stimulation of a situation that has been practised so many times that the response is automatic.

I am working on many of these reflexes now; such as tsuki is always met with a shoto block and an instantaneous men cut. When my opponent comes forward so his shinai crosses my shoto, I immediately, push his blade to the right and strike kote. There are many other reflexes I am trying to establish.

Can't say about western fencing, but with kendo/kenjutsu, there should be omote/ura, otherwise you'd make a boring opponent.

FWIW.

[bob138]

Ok, I realized that I didn't come across very clear above.

The point I was trying to bat home is that: Combat is too complex to master by simply swinging a sword in the air over and over again. Creating reflex reaction is good but in the end can handicap your performance. If you practice to the point that you react the same way to a specific situation every time then you are predictable. That is why I reffered to "no mind" is a quickly moving though process with the body playing catch up. Essentially, training the mind to constantly analyze and re-analyze a situation conciously and teach the body to follow properly. I guess this makes my version of "no-mind" a misnomer but hey, opinions are like...:)

bob

[kuzu70]

If you practice to the point that you react the same way to a specific situation every time then you are predictable. That is why I reffered to "no mind" is a quickly moving though process with the body playing catch up. Essentially, training the mind to constantly analyze and re-analyze a situation conciously and teach the body to follow properly.
bob
In kendo, if you think about a strategy, then act it out, it is too slow. The concept of no mind is that your body instinctively reacts to a situation. This does not necesarrily mean that this is a programmed, predicatable reaction. You train in kendo so your body will instinctively react to any infinite number of situations. This is done through years of keiko.

[Old Warrior]

In kendo, if you think about a strategy, then act it out, it is too slow. The concept of no mind is that your body instinctively reacts to a situation. This does not necesarily mean that this is a programmed, predicatable reaction. You train in kendo so your body will instinctively react to any infinite number of situations. This is done through years of keiko.
Sometimes, I have a strategy in mind before I walk on the court (if I know the opponent). When I act it out, it is done as fast as my body will allow.

With strangers I often fake a men cut to see what they do or how high they raise their hands. Sometimes, I advance to see what someone will do when they feel the pressure or I will hit their shinai with my shoto to see their reaction. None of these actions are "too slow" because I am thinking about them.

I see "no mind" as coming into play when actions unfold at speed and it encompasses what you do "without any conscious thinking". I see strategy as the mental assessment of what you see in your adversary, factoring in your own skills - so as to produce a plan of attack.

[kuzu70]

Of course it is important to go into any match with a general strategy, but a strike made with "no mind" is what we strive for. At least that is what I understand Naoki Eiga-sensei was stating in his documentary.

[Katonk]

I think there's been too much thought on this topic already.

[CryingFreeman]

i think no mind is about developing a level of experience which causes you to react without concious thought

like putting your hand on a hot plate, as soon as you feel the heat your hand is removed in a flash, without really dwelling on whats going on, because you have enough experience to know what to do without rationalizing it

[El Gringo]

i think no mind is about developing a level of experience which causes you to react without concious thought

like putting your hand on a hot plate, as soon as you feel the heat your hand is removed in a flash, without really dwelling on whats going on, because you have enough experience to know what to do without rationalizing it
I agree with your sentiment here but you have failed to realise the difference between a reflex action and a learnt action. reflex action like the one you described above, has nothing to do with experience, it happens due to a biological process where the nerves in your hand send sgnals to the brain, the brain then sends them back to cause pain and to move your hand out of the way.

The idea of no-mind is more to do with repeating something many times over, like learning to drive; when you start learning you have to concentrate on balancing the pedals, changing gears, watching for other cars etc...after some experience of driving you can do all these things without thinking about it so obviously. As far as my limited knowledge goes, this is what the state if no-mind is like.

[CryingFreeman]

I agree with your sentiment here but you have failed to realise the difference between a reflex action and a learnt action. reflex action like the one you described above, has nothing to do with experience, it happens due to a biological process where the nerves in your hand send sgnals to the brain, the brain then sends them back to cause pain and to move your hand out of the way.
actually your mistaken, removing your hand from a source of intense heat is a learnt action, at some point early on in life you would have been exposed to heat and realised that it hurts and burns and then your brain would remember that so when the message from your nerves comes your brain makes you break contact with the heat source.

Proof that its not a reflex is the fact that a lot of babies get badly burned when they touch really hot water or really hot objects for the first time because they do not yet know to break contact.

in a reflex action your brain is not involved, the message gets to your spinal cord and the preprogrammed response is issued from the spinal cord leaving your brain out of the loop, an example is when your doctor makes you cross your legs and a taps pressure point on your knee with a hammer. your leg instantly kicks. this is a reflex, completely un-learned and pre-programmed.
most people cant rationalize why the leg even kicks in the first place


The idea of no-mind is more to do with repeating something many times over, like learning to drive; when you start learning you have to concentrate on balancing the pedals, changing gears, watching for other cars etc...after some experience of driving you can do all these things without thinking about it so obviously. As far as my limited knowledge goes, this is what the state if no-mind is like.
almost exactly what i think,
though i think no mind should be more like eating and drinking than driving.
as in you still have to concentrate to drive
but you dont have to concentrate to eat or drink, though you did at some point in life.

[El Gringo]

I stand corrected, good post Mr Freeman. It shows that I haven't done biology since I was back in school or I didn't listen hard enough when I was there.

[Taisaburo]

']im not sure, i still think No Mind is fundementaly linked with kendo.. a large part of kendo is to do with reaction times, and through making your actions instinctive and cutting out excessive thought you can speed up your reaction time immensely.. plus in this show i watched they were going through the Hachidan examination, and in the written paper you have to write about some Zen/Bushido saying they give you , i think the one in the show was something like "mind is sword" or something like that...

The National Geographic documentary. Ooo, man, just watching that doc. made me discouraged. It was The Sword is The Mind, and they had to write an essay.

[Hisham]

The National Geographic documentary. Ooo, man, just watching that doc. made me discouraged. It was The Sword is The Mind, and they had to write an essay.

It shouldn't have discouraged you since those guys had to be beginners at some point in time, don't only see there present but also the stages they had to go through to get there and it's not superhuman, it takes something called perseverance.

[Taisaburo]

It shouldn't have discouraged you since those guys had to be beginners at some point in time, don't only see there present but also the stages they had to go through to get there and it's not superhuman, it takes something called perseverance.

Of course. But, only 0.8% pass each Hachidan test. And only six out of seven hundred and, whatever, number passed (In that particular test). I know by that time i'll be ready since it'll be another thirty year's or so.

[Hisham]

I know by that time i'll be ready since it'll be another thirty year's or so.

that's the spirit.

[samurai]

This is like Kendo and all martial arts. It comes gradually. You can't learn it through the night. When you will first experience void you will be fascinated. After I had experienced void I was completely calm for a few a days, nothing could disturb me from what that moment had offered me. Since then I hadn't such an experience but I'm sure it will someday as I'm sure that you will to. The only thing is to work hard and focus on training.

[CryingFreeman]

What is this void you speak of?

[Musha]

Mu :D.................

http://images.google.co.jp/images?q=tbn:fJivqBpO5ZoJ:http://www.lollipopcards.com/store/zoom/moocow.gif

[Musha]

BTW has any one heard of the 'Hanya shingyo' (http://www.mbzc.org/resources/sutra/heart-sutra-small.html)? Its an ancient Indian condenced version of Buddhas words on mushin. I've been chanting it every day and meditating when I have time but it has the habit of making me more stupid some times :D.

I respect any one who has achieved mushin through kendo because it is hard to achieve even through meditation.

Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, when deeply practicing prajna paramita, clearly saw that all five aggregates are empty and thus relieved all suffering. Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness, emptiness itself form. Sensations, perceptions, formations, and consciousness are also like this. Shariputra, all dharmas are marked by emptiness; they neither arise nor cease, are neither defiled nor pure, neither increase nor decrease. Therefore, given emptiness, there is no form, no sensation, no perception, no formation, no consciousness; no eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no sight, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of sight... no realm of mind consciousness. There is neither ignorance nor extinction of ignorance... neither old age and death, nor extinction of old age and death; no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no path; no knowledge and no attainment. With nothing to attain, a bodhisattva relies on prajna paramita, [X] and thus the mind is without hindrance. Without hindrance, there is no fear. Far beyond all inverted views, one realizes nirvana. All buddhas of past, present, and future rely on prajna paramita [X] and thereby attain unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment. Therefore, know the prajna paramita as the great miraculous mantra, the great bright mantra, the supreme mantra, the incomparable mantra, which removes all suffering and is true, not false. Therefore we proclaim the prajna paramita mantra, the mantra that says: "Gate Gate [Y] Paragate Parasamgate [Y] Bodhi Svaha."

[CryingFreeman]

ok

is that what void is?

[Musha]

If you can tell us what it is and how to get it you better open a temple in England some where :D.

[CryingFreeman]

Musha i'm sorry you've lost me

are you talking to me or to samurai?

[Musha]

Samurai has already experienced mushin he said. He must alread have his own temple some where in Targu Mures. Or was just drinking a bit to much or taking, smoking some thing that week :D.

Sorry cryingfreeman I was talking to you. I'm really not good at writing :(.