What is a sempai...

[Confound]

Mingshi brought up an interesting point in another thread about the definition of a sempai. I have my own opinion on the subject, but I'm not venturing it until I hear someone else's for once.

c

[KATSUJIN]

hmmm.....wat is a sempai? from a layman's term...a senior member....from my point of view....someone who should help the beginners when they are struggling in understanding and motivate them.......

[GMason]

I agree a senior member of your dojo, usually in grade, or length of service, but having said that anyone can be a sempai.

I have a sempai, but I am also a sempai to the lower grades/ more inexperienced in the Dojo. A Sempai is not just someone who takes warm up and calls Seiza.

So the Sempai/Kohai relationship exists for everyone on many different levels.

OK you are now all free to disagree :D :D

[Confound]

I was hoping for a more philosophical definition, actually, Katsujin. I'm aware of the practical one, thanks.

Mr. Mason, my problem is the place where the line gets blurred. For example, there is an older man at our dojo who just started kendou. He has the same grade as me (pathetically low shodan, don't laugh), but he's only been studying a few months, whereas I've been working hard for a year and a half.

I still address him respectfully, in the same way I would address him outside the dojo, since he's an older man, and a very nice one in fact. My real sempais say that he is my kohai, but I don't like that very much. He doesn't seem to understand where to sit in the seiza line yet, he usually ends up somewhere among the sixth dan people, and to their credit, they don't stare at him or rebuke him. (However, the first time he did it, they were a little surprised.)

So, I'm wondering about these sticky situations. I'm not overly big on formality outside the dojo, but I firmly believe in it during training and inside the dojo.

c

[stinkyKote]

hmmm, well I've always been one to put 'age before beayty'... even if someone isn't that skilled, or even if I think that person doesn't know very much about kendo, if they are older than me, or have been playing for a lot longer, I automatically defer to them- basically, if I'm in doubt, than I just act with a little humility, and sometimes the other person will correct me, and sometimes they won't.

as an example, we'll never let an older member clean the dojo floor, even if he's 5th kyu surrounded by more skillful, younger shodans and nidans-

[Neil Gendzwill]

Confound - I'd approach it the way you have been. Although technically he is junior to you in the dojo, he's senior in every other way and you're not senior enough dojo-wise to trump him. If you know what I mean. The short of it is that he is also kohai to more senior people than you, whose business it should be to politely inform him about the line-up conventions and so forth.

As far as the original question goes, for those lurking who may not know, sempai-kohai represents a senior-junior relationship between two people in any number of situations in Japan, not just the dojo but also work or school. The senior is supposed to help the junior out with his kendo/schoolwork/workwork and in return the junior is deferential to the senior and is expected to do some favours to ease the seniors way. Like cleaning the dojo floor or putting away his bogu or whatever. That's one definition of it, anyways.

In North America, sempai is often used to denote *the* senior student in the dojo. Even if sempai-kohai is used, the relationship isn't nearly so demanding as that in Japan. Sometimes the relationship is abused - its supposed to be fair trade, but the kohai certainly can get the short end of the stick.

[Ares2907]

Especially if you were part of the kokushikan kendobu in '99.
*dons asbestos suit*

[Confound]

care to elaborate on that, ares? sounds like a good story.

c

[supernils]

...there is an older man at our dojo who just started kendou. He has the same grade as me (pathetically low shodan, don't laugh), but he's only been studying a few months...

I'm puzzled.
How can someone achieve Shodan after a few months?

[Jerry Wellbrock]

In my experience the sempai-kohai relationship in a dojo has not been one of instructor-student or so much senior-junior by rank but has been more of big brother(sister)/little brother(sister). It usually is someone who has been around longer than you and outranks you but more than that it is someone who shows a genuine interest in your martial arts growth and developement. Someone who not only helps you with your technique but someone who guides you and shares with you so that you learn and grow not only from your experiences but they are there to help you grow from their earlier experiences also. Yes, they are responsible to show you proper etiquette and behavior both inside and outside the dojo. If you are proper in the dojo and ignore all etiquette outside the dojo, I think you have missed the point and are really unsincere in you training. As far as where we sit in the dojo I agree that there is a proper hierarchy and etiquette dictates those positions, however I don't get hung up on where I sit as long as I don't offend someone else. I am more concerned with the behavior of others after rising from sonkyo than I am concerned where I sit. These are just my thoughts on sempai-kohai. No right or wrong, just my feeling about it.:old_man:

[sminki]

question,

in most of your dojos, do people sit by the strict rank order by the time attained the rank? i've seen schools where you sit by the rank then sorted by age (the difference is that in the former example, if you're 27 and attained 3 dan 2 years ago, you would sit above a 40 year old 3 dan who attained it 1 year ago. In the latter example, the 40 year old would sit before the 27 year old).

not that i care so much about this, but wonder what the popular consensus on this is.

[Paburo]

in our dojo we are not so strict as about order in rei.

i think in our dojo senpai-ness(!?) is measured by level of skill and time practicing, not really that much in age/grades.

my friend is nikyuu and 4 years younger than me(i'm a miserable ikkyuu), but i still treat him like my senpai, for he has been training about 3 years more than me and knows more(kendo).
on the other hand, some shodans barely come to class, and they are like twice my age... but to my surprise they treat me like senpai!

(some students are older than sensei, does that mean they will have to seat in front???)

i think here it's more a matter of 'who can teach/help who', and not really about age or grade.

[Old Warrior]

"as an example, we'll never let an older member clean the dojo floor, even if he's 5th kyu surrounded by more skillful, younger shodans and nidans-"

I am, by far, the oldest member of our Dojang and at 9th kyu - you can't be much newer. I am never asked to clean the floor. But, I'm the only student who ever brought in plaster and a putty knife and who patched the holes in the walls from over zealous students. Hey, we all do what we can.

[Ares2907]

My reference to the kokushikan kendobu was from back in '99 when a first year was killed by a 4th year, from all reports for not doing his laundry. I heard he was kicked down a flight of stairs. Violence is reasonably commonplace in many senpai/kohai relationships although fatalaties tend not to be.

[Karaken]

Sminki, in my dojo, it's strictly by Rank regardless of age, sex or experience unless everything is about equal then we count age, sex and experience ( in this sequence ). Also, if I'm visiting other dojo, I'll sit at the last position of my rank.

[sminki]

your dojo actually counts sex? is it ladies first?

[alexpollijr]

It's supposed to be Grade first than Age, isn't it?

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Confound
Mingshi brought up an interesting point in another thread about the definition of a sempai. I have my own opinion on the subject, but I'm not venturing it until I hear someone else's for once.

c

My understanding is that THE sempais in a dojo are 3Dan +.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There are two common definitions in use for sempai - one is a student who is senior to you, the other is for the senior student in a club. No specific rank is attached to either. The sempai-kohai relationship has been explained elsewhere.

That doesn't mean to say that some clubs don't define a rank where someone automatically gets a title. It's misuse of the word, but there you go.

[misterkurukuru]

If someone has a higher rank then you, then they are your senpai. Even if you meet them for the first time, they are still your senpai. usually if they are much older and higher rank then you are, you can call them DAI senpai. All senpais are not nice or good people, but you have to respect them, thats part of kendo.
I have had 3 kyu people and shodan people talking down to here on the forum...and well i dont think they were ever tuaght senpai kohai. being a kohai doesnt mean you are a slave, but you cannot out right disrespect your senpais like some people have done in this forum.

[KhawMengLee]

You know...respect is earned not given.

You come here and brag and berate ppl left, right and center. Then act like a total jerk. Don't bring up japanese culture because part of it is to be humble.

This forum is not a formal dojo, in the dojo we give total commitment to the sensei's words but the reason we show the same attitude after kendo is because of gratitude and respect earned in the dojo.

Maybe if you'd practiced what you preached you wouldn't draw fire.

[nodachi]

Yay for the respect for senpai kohai in the dojo, but I think things change a bit once you go online. If some random person on a forum says that they are hachidan, I am not going to instantly act like a kohai or hold back on what I might say. Anyone can hop on a forum and say they are whatever dan. Hence, it is reasonable to disregard senpai kohai online, in my opinion. Besides, the disagreements and random disharmony online here often bring about interesting viewpoints that wouldn't necessarily be seen if we all stuck to senpai kohai attitudes here.

[Ostrak]

Mister Kurukuru:
I'm curious why you would point out this view of respect in this thread. Given your posts in the "Judges who shouldn't judge" thread I have to admit I'm somewhat at a loss to read you (perhaps that is your intent?). I took your posts in the Judges thread as a rather immature rant. The Judges thread appears to me inconsistent with your latest post in this thread. Could you please explain your view of respect further, particularly in light of your position that your view of respect is "part of kendo" and as such must be accepted? You view budo as a sport and my experience, in a variety of different sports, has been that there will always be bad judges/referees. Sometimes poor judging is "a part of kendo" and should therefore be accepted. As someone (sorry I forget who) mentioned earlier, we are all human and subject to human weakness, i.e. we all make mistakes. How do you reconcile your Judges thread with the position of respect that you advocate here?

[hamish]

In the Japanese dojo I train in, its usually by rank, and then by time in that rank. So you get the situation of much older beginners sitting below people younger than their kids.

With the gradual replacement of the time-based seniority system with one based on merit, this is also a growing problem in Japanese society at large. Particularly where the language you use depends on the other person's age and position.

There's probably a score of etiquette books dealing with the issue out by now, I'm sure.

[Old Warrior]

I'm 20 years older than the senior most student and three times older than the second ranking student. I have my place at the end of the line. For the moment, everyone in my class has something to teach me and despite the fact that my children are older than them all - they have allowed me to fit in. I have never seen an instance where etiquette has been an issue nor have I witnessed a disrespectful act. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that 75% of the students are first generation Americans of Korean lineage. They are really a nice bunch of kids.

[Sinta]

I would believe a sempai to be somewhat a role model in the dojo to the younger grades. They don't have to be in the higher grades. Just outstanding members, who help newbies and the dojo members during training and after.

It was my sempai who watched out for me after I took a break after my asthma attack. He encouraged me to come back and provided ways, how I could train without straining myself overly much. Thanks to him I haven't quit and disappeared like so many newbies after a few months. Now I'm more motivated and encouraged to continue on knowing that I was close to giving up. I had the chance to give up, but he called to me, took care of me and was so understanding and encouraged me. That's why I followed. Why? Because Winners aren't quitters, and quitters are not winners.

Thank you Sempai!

[misterkurukuru]

I think kohais should know thier place. They do not have to like thier senpais, but they do have to respect them. It goes the same for senpais, they should respect thier kohais, but if a kohai gets out of hand, the senpai needs to lay the smack down on them. If that senpai is out of hand, then thier senpai needs to smack them down. I dont like a lot of my senpais, but they did teach me respect, and i do have respect for who they are( in kendo) and what they have done (in kendo). knowing your role is part of budo. I may do sports kendo for tournaments, but when going up for new ranks i change my style and do "nice looking" kendo. oh and there are people who do not know thier place on this forum...they need to get smacked down. As for me...if you are my senpai( and not some 3 kyu or something), give me the smack down, i welcome it! I dont think i am high and mighty like some people here. If you smack me down, then you must as a senpai tell these other people to not outstep thier rank as well. oh and once again!!!! if you dont like this aspect of the japanses culture dont do kendo! As long as we have ranks and kendo is controled by japan, this will not change!

[misterkurukuru]

oh and sinta that was a nice story! you have a good senpai and you are lucky to have someone like that at your dojo! keep it up!

[nodachi]

Respect is an interesting issue to raise. I see a senpai as someone who is there to teach KENDO to the kohai. It is the parents job to teach respect to their kids and lay the smack down.

Depending on the degree of it or how you interpret "laying the smack down", that is not teaching respect to someone. They may acknowledge that the senpai has better kendo and that the kohai will need to learn from that because they are not as good. However, acknowledging that someone is good at kendo and actually respecting them is a completely different issue. I mean, if someone is a complete A##, butt, then just boot them from the dojo, figuratively of course, and say come back when you have lost the crappy attitude. However, "smacking someone down" doesn't foster true respect. That comes from helping people out and showing you care about them or their progress in kendo. Then they do the same for others.

I know this is all foggy, but people should start with an attitude of respect, and if it ain't there, blame the parents. It's not your job to beat respect into someone. They need to learn it through seeing it in others. Laying the smack down reminds me too much of bad coaches and militant drill sergents. It may work for the army or the old swordmanship teaching styles of the past, but now things are changed. Beating people down only fosters more resentment in my book.

[Phlebas]

As a beginner I was delighted to read Sinta's post. You are fortunate indeed to have a sempai like that. There is a senior student at my dojo who seems to have all the good qualities in a leader, and I hope he would be as supportive and encouraging as yours was, if need be. I certainly recognize the importance of dicipline, and I would never complain if I was "snapped back into line" for some reason, but it's nice to hear stories of sempais who are both "hard assed" and supportive. The two qualities are NOT mutually exclusive, I think.

[sminki]

Nodachi brings up a very interesting point. This goes back to the fact that interaction with people should really be no different in the dojo as outside the dojo. Just as there are sensei, sempai and kohai in the dojo, one has such figures outside of the dojo in every day life as well. There may be people in "real life" who are one's superior in rank who one would really not respect, but still would extend basic human courtesy. I think the same holds true at the dojo. There may be kodansha who have much higher level of kendo than yourself (i'm not talking to anyone in particular, this is a general use of "you") who has a very bad personality whom you can't really respect. However, you may pick up some kendo from the person and carry on a courteous/trouble-free relationship. So, the issue of respect aside, I think everyone should maintain the basic level of politeness with everyone else. Respecting and developing the above "sempai/kohai" relationship to a true sempai/kohai relationship is another thing.

In terms of the "smack-down", if one is disrespected blatantly out of the realm of common courtesy, I believe that one has a right to attempt this "smack-down" regardless of one's rank to defend his/her honor. Otherwise, this so-called "smack-down" should be limited to cases where a truly caring sempai feels it absolutely necessary to correct a major wrongdoing of a kohai. However, without the sempai actually caring for the kohai, the "smack-down" does not justify itself. If the "smack-down" occurs without any personal regard for the kohai, it becomes no more than a tyranny often witnessed at a korean or a japanese highschool where the so-called "sempai" have a free reign on the "kohai" without a true sempai/kohai relationship in place. Oh, a lot would also depend on the definition of this "smack-down" (whether it's kicking one's butt in keiko, physical abuse, verbal abuse, stern chastising, etc...)

The sempai/kohai relationship is not always so clear-cut either. For example, there may be a 3 kyu who is a successful person in life (and I don't mean wealthy, but a well-adjusted person with solid values and experiences), who despite being a kohai in kendo, is a sempai in life. Would you ever lay him the "smack-down"? If you do, it certainly won't be a "smack-down" in its every day definition which would involve a level of harshness. So as you can see, one's sempai/kohai relationship with each person at the dojo may have different definition of the particular sempai/kohai relationship you have with a particular person.

Like nodachi has said, this is a bit vague and foggy and circumstantial, but this is so much easier and smoother if we all maintain a level of respect to all people both in and out of the dojo.

[Sinta]

Originally posted by Phlebas
... it's nice to hear stories of sempais who are both "hard assed" and supportive. The two qualities are NOT mutually exclusive, I think.

LOL sounds like my sempai. He can be the nicest, but at the same time he won't stop to put you in place.. and when he does, you know not to move from it again ^-^

Nothing bad about that. Discipline is needed in Kendo. It makes a better student.

[Tato]

As the Sinta story shows, there is a logical reason for the sempai/kohai relationship on a dojo, besides the cultural one (has anyone realized that most cultural habits have a sound logical reason supporting them?).

But I won't stretch that concept to the outside of the dojo, and this for many reasons. First is that, for me, respect and courtesy is due at the same degree to all the people I cross, no mather of their "ranking". Second is that, in almost every case, it's imposible to know how those people are "ranked", and third, because outside of a very formalized environement, it's imposible to "rank" someone.

Let me formulte this in another fasion, at street level it's hard to define someone as "sensei" "sempai" or "kohai", people are way more complex than that.

Now, I belive that the sempai/kohai has a practical side, that is to accelerate knowledge transmision on a dojo, reducing a bit the presure on the sensei.

Rei

[Old Warrior]

I believe in tradition, enjoy formality and understand the need for discipline. However, in the pursuit of a voluntary activity, where the “rules” are known in advance, none of them should ever be an issue. If you want to learn – you conform. If you don’t – you quit. That is not to say that every activity doesn’t attract some wackos that can’t stop their deviant personalities from surfacing.

The idea that someone at Kumdo would have the need to “smack someone down” is ludicrous. Even in a class of mostly teenagers, the Master does not struggle to maintain discipline or gain respect. And, there are always moments of humor in every class – even where the Master is the object.

This Sempai/Kohei discussion seems to be a matter of taking oneself too seriously. I find it easy to learn from students who are half the age of my own children. We are all there to learn and they have something to teach me (a beginner). I may be a newbie at Kumdo, but I’m fairly expert at other forms of fencing and I spend a considerable amount of time teaching. The thought of “smacking down” a student is ludicrous. If I don’t like their attitude, I don’t teach them at all. And, if I want to show that they should listen because I have greater skill – I just execute the technique with the same force I would use in bouting. When they see, it works, I have made my point. There is no reason to humiliate anyone. My ego is never at stake.

[misterkurukuru]

showing your skill could be part of giving them the smack down. hmmm sorry, maybe i shouldnt use slang anymore... it seems to be confusing people. sorry about that i will state things more clear next time!

[misterkurukuru]

senpais shouldnt have total power over thier kohais, and beating people down for no reason is not right! a real senpai wouldnt do that, but there are a lot of A$$ holes in the world of kendo! no one is perfect...right!?!

[nodachi]

Sorry if I miss interpretted... laying the smack down just makes me think of beating people down, cans of whoop a#$, and funny eyebrow cameos on wrestlers.

:)

[Hyaku]

To answer the original question and totaly confuse everybody.

1. Your sempai is anyone that is older than you, even if its by a day. Sempai will perhaps even go to great lengths to explain this fact if he wants to pull rank and does not have the experience to go with it.

2. Your sempai in the dojo is anyone who ranks higher than you even if he is younger.

3. Your sempai is anyone that has been at the dojo longer than you regardless of rank or age.

Sort out your own pecking order bearing in mind age, experience etc.

Where I work there is a regime that one could describe as similar to a British Public school in an everyday Dojo. Beginners are treated like sh?t and in turn do the same when they become sempai. We even use the term OB for old boys.

Its not just in the Dojo in Japan. It runs through society in general. Government, Education, Industry, the works! Yes Koizumi has his sempai too!

In Dojo in other countrys I really cant see it making a great deal of difference if you meet a few times a week. But here in Japan we have to live with it in both work and study.

We had a visiting lecturer yesterday who's students have been winning the Ekiden (National Roadrace) for the past 30 years and go on to become Olympic champions. He said that it was training at the top was very severe but summed it up mainly as self discipline that won the day. And that he merely tried to guide his students to be severe with themselves.

This is also what we do in education and why Kendo survives in Japan as a sportlike educational activity.

As a Sensei/Sempai (lol) I can safely say that the best place in the dojo is next to the door. Put up with the slapping down or whatever you want to call it and you can learn like crazy. Sensei's place can get a bit lonely at times.

Hyaku

[mingshi]

Oh, I do miss the day when I was a true newbie.

Now some dodgy beginners try to fight off the mop from me and sweep the floor... but their mopping skill is very 10-kyu!!!

And I ended up with even more humiliating jobs like guiding warm-ups and asking potential beginners to sit down instead of standing outside peeking.

$@#*(%#!!!

[kendokamax]

i'm getting my shodan in mopping tonight

[Raiza]

Hi everybody,

I'm resurrecting an old thread here, but I think this is probably the most relevant spot, especially after reading sminki's last post in this thread. We have a 50-ish 2nd dan in our small club who has causing major problems, resulting in the vast majority of membership losses in bogu-wearing students and has been cited as the reason for quitting for several beginners. It's hard to tell with beginners sometimes, but I know of cases that are directly attributable to the disrespectful conduct of the offending individual. The highest ranking member is a 3rd dan who knows the problems are there but feels helpless to do anything about them and is fatalistic about the issue. Of the bogu-wearing individuals, I'm the only one left below 2nd Dan who's left who tries to train regularly. The indivdual has control/race issues and a hair-trigger temper, which I've had the pleasure of experiencing personally. Sort of the type of person who takes the mundane aspects of budo WAY too seriously and forgetting the meaning behind budo altogether. What complicates the situation is the individual (who I'll call Bob) runs the administrative aspects of the club, is the first contact for the beginners, insists on advising the beginners exclusively with the exception of the 3rd dan, and is one of the founding members of the club. We do have an iaido-sensei as part of our club (the dojo is split between iaido, and jodo. The sensei rarely trains in kendo and hasn't seen how this behavior has worsened since our 4th dan returned to Japan last June. The situation is getting to the point where I am ashamed of being in a dojo where he's allowed to dominate, intimidate and abuse other members while at the same time we are repeatedly lectured on etiquette (the details, not the heart and soul).

Do you have any advice on what can be done? All I've got right now is to suggest to the 3rd dan that we have a firm, clear code of conduct that will exclude the kind of behavior we've had to put up with. If that fails I'll communicate with the iaido sensei, but I don't think much can be done because of Bob's position in the club. I'm at the point of quitting altogether, not because I don't love kendo, but because the environment has become so bad and such a distorted version of kendo should be (e.g. perfecting one's character, trying your best, respecting others) that I cannot passively endorse its existence by further tolerating the way things are done in silence. I realize that there are a**holes in kendo, and Bob is certifiable, but this guy is singlehandedly destroying the environment that brought me to kendo in the first place.

I have just one more month before my shodan exam after practising for 3 years and I hope I can make it until then. I'd appreciate your responses and maybe there might be a way to resolve this mess.

Thanks,
Raiza

[Karana]

Hang in there! It's just a month more!

I know how it feels to have something you love be distorted by absolute numbskulls such that you're on a point of leaving. And since they're your so-called "seniors" there's nothing much you can do but accept the situation if nothing is done about them.

But since it's only a month more to your shodan exam, you should just go for it. (Good luck btw ~! :) )

Are there any other Kendo dojos in your area?

あきらめないで！　－→ Don't give up!

[Hai_hai]

Hi everybody...
Interesting. Where did the bogu-wearing members go? Is there another dojo in the area? Go there.

[Raiza]

Are there any other Kendo dojos in your area?

There's one other dojo in my area, but none of the people of my dojo who dropped out wound up there, or if they did, they chose not to continue. It's a commercial (for-profit) dojo, and although cost is not really much of an issue, financial exploitation is. I'll be going to a place from which I've only seen two individuals go to tournaments or go for gradings that I am aware of. However, at this point I see little option but to at least give them a look in person. I've been confronted in two consecutive classes with genuinely threatening behavior from this individual in the last week alone while I was not engaged in practise due to injury, the first after practise and the second during. I'm concerned I'm going to be assaulted. I have no intention of having this person as a partner for the forseeable future.

The other options would not result in regular practise. One is to acquire a car and drive a minimum of two hours each way to the next town where kendo is taught. Almost all classes are on weeknights and I won't have full medical coverage if something happens as the city is in another province. Another is to drive a minimum of 5 hours one way and pay for a night in a hotel to attend weekend classes at two dojos.

[Kaoru]

Hi Raiza-san,



We have a 50-ish 2nd dan in our small club who has causing major problems, resulting in the vast majority of membership losses in bogu-wearing students and has been cited as the reason for quitting for several beginners. It's hard to tell with beginners sometimes, but I know of cases that are directly attributable to the disrespectful conduct of the offending individual. The highest ranking member is a 3rd dan who knows the problems are there but feels helpless to do anything about them and is fatalistic about the issue.

This 3rd dan needs to let this person know who is in charge. The reason this guy is walking all over you guys, is because you all are letting him. The sandan needs to start pulling rank to get this guy in line. In our dojo, his behavior would get him dumped on his rear. If it didn't stop, he'd get tossed out the door.


Of the bogu-wearing individuals, I'm the only one left below 2nd Dan who's left who tries to train regularly. The indivdual has control/race issues and a hair-trigger temper, which I've had the pleasure of experiencing personally. I am sure he has figured out how to control you guys with this type of behavior and knows you all are too cowed to tell him off so he keeps it up. Not to sound bad, but is he black or white? Let me know which please. What I have to say if he is not white, could help.

Since he has control issues, you need to put that to constructive use, if you can. Does he like being in charge? First, before you do anything, he needs to understand WHO is in charge. This should be made quite clear. If you have to implement rank for a while to get the point across, do it.
Trust me, this works. This comes from when I was helping teach when I did TKD. (I was training to become an official Trainee Instructor which you had to test for before had to stop practicing it.) I never pulled rank myself, since rank in TKD is considered important. NEVER would a person dare to disobey a person of a higher rank in our dojang. It was unheard of. Etiquette in our dojang was very strict, to the point of, never ever walk when a sensei calls you over. You run. And, you never ever turn your back on him when leaving, either. You bow, then step backwards. And, even in the adult class, this was even to the point of how you spoke to your dojomates. God forbid you said "Hey" to one.

Kendo dojos don't normally show rank at all, but in this case, it may get him back in line. Setting up a rank system to show who is his sempai may not be such a bad idea at this point. And, you may want to try some of the things I mentioned above. You must expect proper etiquette of him regardless of his rank in the dojo, and follow through, for him to get the point. If he doesn't conform, punish him in some way. That is exactly what I would do. Make him sweep the dojo floor all by himself after class when he misbehaves or before class even. Or, make him do extra suburi when he acts out of line. Anything that causes him work, should teach him humility. Make him fold a person's hakama and keik-gi if he is rude to that person. etc, etc. His actions must have consequences. Right now, he thinks he can get away with stuff, right? So, turn the tables on him. I don't care if he IS 50. He has to learn who is in charge. And, what you should tell the others in your dojo, is that he is not to be spoken to in class except to teach him something. If any are kohai to him, I would be hesitent to have him work with them until you guys have him under control.

Once you do, after several months, then give him small tasks to be in charge of, such as teaching a beginner. He needs to be in a position to earn priviledges. Well, this worked when I was allowed to teach small groups under a teacher's supervision. It ought to work with him too. If you have to, go ahead and treat him like a kid.


Sort of the type of person who takes the mundane aspects of budo WAY too seriously and forgetting the meaning behind budo altogether. I can't stress this enough: Stress the importance of etiquette and expect it to be followed and make sure he knows there will be consequences if he does not. In our Kendo dojo, we know we must follow etiquette or get reprimanded for it.(Not saying you guys don't. I mean that you'll have to be extra strict now to get him in line.)


What complicates the situation is the individual (who I'll call Bob) runs the administrative aspects of the club, is the first contact for the beginners, insists on advising the beginners exclusively with the exception of the 3rd dan, and is one of the founding members of the club. What you do first, is relieve him of his administrative duties and make someone else the first contact for beginners until he can learn to humble himself before another and do what they say. And, the sandan MUST tell him he is no longer to advise the beginners without his permission. This guy needs a lesson in obeying orders. I don't care if he IS a founding member. To make things miserable for others is wrong.

The thing is, he was given WAY too much responsibility, and IMHO, it all went to his head.

I hope I don't sound mean in the above, but he sounds like he needs LOTS of guidence. While you are at all this, make sure he gets positive feedback whenever he does something good. Yes, this works beautifully with adults too. A lot of techniques used to teach kids will often work very well with adults. Even if it is "Wow, the floor looks nice." after he just swept it. Sometimes, people just have a need to be noticed and will do anything for attention. You just have to lay down the law, so to speak, and get him squared away. And, then add small priviledges as rewards, if possible. Sometimes, this way of dealing with it, can work. And then sometimes, it fails. But you just have to try. hopefully, implementing rules and making him follow them by providing consequences if he does not follow them, will help with his temper too. If he has a temper flair-up, punish him with work or suburi. Things like kakari-geiko and Kirikaeshi are too fun. He isn't going to remember why he was made to do it, if it is fun.

Now, mind you, this all come from when I was in TKD, not Kendo. I just thought maybe something of this could help.
You will have to be confident and strong to do this though. So must your sandan. Or, forget it, and he will just continue to walk all over you guys.

My TKD teachers may have been strict, but they were always fair and never mean or unkind.

Be friendly and kind, but firm and decisive. Or, you'll lose to him. He's not gonna like this at first, but if you stick to it, he should become more meek and hopefuly, nicer.


We do have an iaido-sensei as part of our club (the dojo is split between iaido, and jodo. The sensei rarely trains in kendo and hasn't seen how this behavior has worsened since our 4th dan returned to Japan last June. DO get him involved in this, if you think it will help. And really, you guys need to stand up to to him, or forget the dojo returning to being pleasent.


The situation is getting to the point where I am ashamed of being in a dojo where he's allowed to dominate, intimidate and abuse other members while at the same time we are repeatedly lectured on etiquette (the details, not the heart and soul). Note the word ALLOW. If you all LET him do as he wishes, this will just continue. Try to follow the steps I mentioned above.
Also, make a list of etiquette rules to be followed and why, including the philosphical aspects, print them out and hand them out to the ENTIRE class so he isn't singled out. Then, tell them to memorise them all. Then, quizz them on it. When you put things on paper so they are tangible, for some reason, people tend to believe in them more. The rules are better followed when they can see them in print. If you expect the entire class to follow everything to perfection, he will see that, and hopefuly, try to do the same But, you must state in class, the changes to be made and what is expected of everyone.(You can, if you feel you need to, gather everyone together and explain why you are doing so, when is not around, and ask for support from everyone.)


Do you have any advice on what can be done? All I've got right now is to suggest to the 3rd dan that we have a firm, clear code of conduct that will exclude the kind of behavior we've had to put up with. If that fails I'll communicate with the iaido sensei, See what I said above. :) I agree.


but I don't think much can be done because of Bob's position in the club.

Who cares about his position? He is abusing his position. This has to be stopped. The first thing to do, is take his position from him to set him straight. Losing priviledges is no fun, but this needs to happen. He can earn it back, as far as I am concerned. Things CAN be done. He is kohai to the sandan. He must do as he is told. I can't see how it is any different.


I'm at the point of quitting altogether, not because I don't love kendo, but because the environment has become so bad and such a distorted version of kendo should be (e.g. perfecting one's character, trying your best, respecting others) that I cannot passively endorse its existence by further tolerating the way things are done in silence. I totally agree with you.(Thinking of my old Kumdo dojang.)

Don't quit! This guy should not be allowed to win by you quitting. If this does not work out by trying anything I said, and if they don't work, then just switch dojos. No problem there, if you have a valid reason, which you would, for switching.

(To next pg. please.)

[Kaoru]

I have just one more month before my shodan exam after practising for 3 years and I hope I can make it until then. I'd appreciate your responses and maybe there might be a way to resolve this mess.
Hang in there and do your best! :) meanwhile, go visit other dojos to practice without stress, if you have the time. Good luck on your Shodan exam! :)

I really hope I didn't come across as bad, but these are just things and ideas I learned from my teachers in TKD.
A couple were my own ideas. Again, I hope I didn't come across badly. I know I am not a sensei. I just wanted to help you succeed with this guy and your dojo. :)
And, I know that some of my ideas sound drastic, but sometimes, to take care of a problem, you have to be drastic to make a positive change.

I hope this was of a little bit of help. :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

There's one other dojo in my area, but none of the people of my dojo who dropped out wound up there, or if they did, they chose not to continue. It's a commercial (for-profit) dojo, and although cost is not really much of an issue, financial exploitation is. I'll be going to a place from which I've only seen two individuals go to tournaments or go for gradings that I am aware of. However, at this point I see little option but to at least give them a look in person. I've been confronted in two consecutive classes with genuinely threatening behavior from this individual in the last week alone while I was not engaged in practise due to injury, the first after practise and the second during. I'm concerned I'm going to be assaulted. I have no intention of having this person as a partner for the forseeable future.

The other options would not result in regular practise. One is to acquire a car and drive a minimum of two hours each way to the next town where kendo is taught. Almost all classes are on weeknights and I won't have full medical coverage if something happens as the city is in another province. Another is to drive a minimum of 5 hours one way and pay for a night in a hotel to attend weekend classes at two dojos. Hey, I only just saw this after I posted. If he is threatening you, he should be expelled from the dojo, period. He is too unbalanced to be learning a sword art, and could be a danger to others. I say now, definately ask for help from that Iaido sensei. And, could you guys get a sensei from another dojo come to teach a few times and help take care of this guy? I feel really bad for you guys! Anyway, if he is THAT bad, then he needs to just be expelled. Stand UP to him! Everybody needs to, not just you.

I'm sorry this is happening. So much for my ideas. :( I am too optimistic sometimes.

Kaoru

[JSchmidt]

Raiza, if the 3rd dan is unwilling to take action, contact your national organisation and explain the situation. Especially in todays political correct climate, they will have to react to the race-issue.

Jakob

[nodachi]

Don't quit kendo because of some punk. If there are issues with race and threatening other people where you feel unsafe, this person must be spoken to and if nothing happens, boot them.

Perhaps if this person is warned and realizes that they are going to be booted from the club and they will have to be the one to drive two hours to practice then it might fix the attitude.

If the 3dan in charge won't do anything, also speak with them because if I was in charge of a club and learned that one individual was turning all the other members away because of these issues, the mean one needs to behave or be banished. If other people talk to the 3dan about it and not only you, it might have more impact because he will know it isn't just one person who is having a problem, it's everyone.

I'll repeat, don't quit because of some punk. Remember the reasons why you started and have been doing kendo for 3 years. Don't let some punk ruin that for you.

[Raiza]

Thanks for all of your contructive and helpful replies, everyone. A lot of great things have been said and I'll take them to heart. I'll keep you posted on how this turns out.

[Hai_hai]

Hi Raiza-san...
(To next pg. please.)
There was no way to write an abridged version?

[Old Warrior]

What if you are the junior and can easily dominate your senior (who is at least 2 ranks above you) and you want to offer some constructive help? And what if you try to explain why you have just hit 3 successive men cuts and then get the reply "I know what I'm doing, you have to understand my game". And then, go on to hit even more men/kote, at will.

I do only nito and clearly my senior, a 2nd Dan (new to our school), never had much experience with nito and couldn't seem to comprehend the concept that my reach is longer and that you MUST stand outside the distance that I can hit without my having to move my feet.

My response was to apologize, bow and lower my eyes. It will never be spoken of again. My question is - did I do wrong? I see us as "training partners" and I was just trying to hold up my end.

[kendokamax]

raiza if you quit kendo i go to Ottawa and kick your ass

see you at jccc?

[Andoru]

Yeah Raiza don't ever quit because of someone else! To quit is to surrender...don't do it mate.

[Kaoru]

There was no way to write an abridged version?
I honestly didn't know how to shorten it. I tried. I didn't know what to leave in or out. So, I gave up and ended up posting in two posts.

Kaoru

P.S. Where's Bender? He fits you better. Bender has a personality your present avatar has not. Pleeeease put Bender back? :)

[Kaoru]

Thanks for all of your contructive and helpful replies, everyone. A lot of great things have been said and I'll take them to heart. I'll keep you posted on how this turns out.
You're welcome Raiza-san. Please do tell us what happened. Don't ever, ever quit. :)

Kaoru

[Infinity]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kendo attracts all kinds of people. The trick is to find the lesson this person is teaching you. It could be as simple as learning perseverance through adversity. More than likely he is teaching you how not to treat people. This person’s teaching techniques may highlight flawed thinking about learning Kendo, again something you can take with you. Your path of self-improvement may be harder than others’ due to your environment but that is not a reason to give up. It is the reason to persevere.

[Masahiro]

What if you are the junior and can easily dominate your senior (who is at least 2 ranks above you) and you want to offer some constructive help? And what if you try to explain why you have just hit 3 successive men cuts and then get the reply "I know what I'm doing, you have to understand my game". And then, go on to hit even more men/kote, at will.

I do only nito and clearly my senior, a 2nd Dan (new to our school), never had much experience with nito and couldn't seem to comprehend the concept that my reach is longer and that you MUST stand outside the distance that I can hit without my having to move my feet.

My response was to apologize, bow and lower my eyes. It will never be spoken of again. My question is - did I do wrong? I see us as "training partners" and I was just trying to hold up my end.
No you didn't do wrong, and the only way to "offer a constructive" advice on your part is to repeatedly beat him. To a point where he becomes aware that he is not as good as he thinks. Ignorence can result to much pride and too much pride is the result of from lacking knowledge.

[Raiza]

Thanks for all of your contructive and helpful replies, everyone. A lot of great things have been said and I'll take them to heart. I'll keep you posted on how this turns out.

I had to wait a while for the dust to settle. Here's what I've got so far.

Correction: The 3rd Dan is actually 2nd Dan. My bad.

Bad news: After initially saying yes, Sempai changed his mind and would no longer authorize me to challenge shodan. Says I haven't been training regularly enough (absences due to illness and injury).
Good news: The club members are going to put together a code that everyone has to adhere to in the new year that will hopefully put a stop to the offending behaviour. I was also able to get another (former) member give an example of her experiences as well.

BTW, the race issue wasn't black/white. Bob was strongly favouring the Japanese members over anybody else, regardless of rank/age. Bob's not Japanese.

In the meantime, I'll just try to keep plugging away and swap partners when it looks like I'll be stuck with Bob during uchikomi/jikeiko, whenever I can. The hardest thing is dealing with the stress of having someone like that around. One moment he's nice, the next he's overbearing and ready to snap. It's tough to deal with.

But I'll keep trying.

[Raiza]

Ok, more updates. I need to post this.

After letting Sempai know about Bob flipping out, he said that he would talk to Bob in addition to having a code brought about next year. I had asked for a meeting right away to set up a code because I feared for my safety. When I asked Sempai what sort of information would he tell Bob, he did not reply to my question. He also never provided me with any feedback as to how the conversation went, so I don't know if anything happened at all. In light of this, I've been only attending when I know Bob won't be there, because I'm genuinely concerned that I'm going to be assaulted.

Turns out my fears were correct.

While seated at the restaurant table at our dojo's End of Year party last Saturday. I was suddenly grabbed by Bob by my shoulders and shaken so hard that my neck hurt the following day. I have never given Bob permission to touch me, we are not friends and the amount of force used was anything but friendly. It's Tuesday and my neck still hurts. Bob did this under the guise of "volunteering" me to conduct the draw for the door prizes. There were at least four other people who witnessed this and I was visibly upset after the incident occurred. In hindsight, I should have called the cops right then and there, right smack in the middle of a Christmas party of 42 people that Bob himself had organized.

I will no longer be attending classes at the dojo and will no longer use my dojo zekken. Those who have seen me before will know which dojos I have trained with. I will be beginning classes at the other dojo in January after I get back from vacation. I had a chance to go watch a class at the other dojo and it turns out that the class is run by someone I know and respect. He runs hard classes, but his intentions are good and he seemed delighted that I would be coming there to train. The people who were training there seemed like decent folks too. I'll go watch another practise tomorrow.

Thanks for reading.

[JSchmidt]

Raiza, the best thing you could, is to write a letter to the CKF, describing your experiences. Depending on how political the CKF is, this could however have long term after effects, but for the safety of other people in your old dojo, it would be the best thing to do.
Sorry to hear you had to go through this, but at least it looks like you have found a new decent dojo.

Jakob

[Kaoru]

Ok, more updates. I need to post this.

After letting Sempai know about Bob flipping out, he said that he would talk to Bob in addition to having a code brought about next year. I had asked for a meeting right away to set up a code because I feared for my safety. When I asked Sempai what sort of information would he tell Bob, he did not reply to my question. He also never provided me with any feedback as to how the conversation went, so I don't know if anything happened at all. In light of this, I've been only attending when I know Bob won't be there, because I'm genuinely concerned that I'm going to be assaulted.

Turns out my fears were correct.

While seated at the restaurant table at our dojo's End of Year party last Saturday. I was suddenly grabbed by Bob by my shoulders and shaken so hard that my neck hurt the following day. I have never given Bob permission to touch me, we are not friends and the amount of force used was anything but friendly. It's Tuesday and my neck still hurts. Bob did this under the guise of "volunteering" me to conduct the draw for the door prizes. There were at least four other people who witnessed this and I was visibly upset after the incident occurred. In hindsight, I should have called the cops right then and there, right smack in the middle of a Christmas party of 42 people that Bob himself had organized.

I will no longer be attending classes at the dojo and will no longer use my dojo zekken. Those who have seen me before will know which dojos I have trained with. I will be beginning classes at the other dojo in January after I get back from vacation. I had a chance to go watch a class at the other dojo and it turns out that the class is run by someone I know and respect. He runs hard classes, but his intentions are good and he seemed delighted that I would be coming there to train. The people who were training there seemed like decent folks too. I'll go watch another practise tomorrow.

Thanks for reading.
Hi Raiza-san,

I am glad he didn't hurt you worse. But, I am sorry he did what he did to you. He should be ashamed! I hope your neck gets better soon. And, I hope you are happy in your new dojo. That was a good idea to switch. Please let us know how you like the practices once you begin there, ok?

Good luck! :)

Kaoru

[kanyil]

Hi Raiza,

Sorry to hear what happened. Hope everything works out well for you.

Being a kohai doesn't mean you have to endure unreasonable abuses. Sempais are suppose to be there to guide you along your way.

The next time someone lay their hand on you without permission you should call the police immediately and file a report. If you get hurt as a result of the unauthorized contact then press charges and/or sue. This will stop them quick.

[Masahiro]

Other than the fact that I think "Bob" is in need of some serious psycho therapy. I think you should speak to Bob about his "bully-ness". Why not? So perhaps he will hit you after he listens to you. Even better, then you will have something to press charge against. I don't mean speak to Bob and try to educate him and convince him to repent his ways. No, I mean that you should stand firm as a man, a student of kendo, and tell him the distress he caused you, and because how you were treated you are now "compelled" to switched dojo. Bow, and bid him a good day.