Chinese vs Japanese swords

[JasonC]

Having seen 'House of Flying Daggers' recently, I was reminded of an observation that I'd made a while ago after watching 'Crouching Tiger'. Namely that the Chinese swords in those two films have a rather high 'wobbliness factor' (tm). I thought it faintly absurd at the time, but having seen it now in several films, I'm wondering if it has any basis in reality.

So that's the question. Were (authentic) Chinese swords much more flexible(and presumably a lot thinner), and if so why?

cheers,
Jason

[KHuang]

chinese sword have to be one handed and light because chinese sword art has a lot of kick's and acrobatic movement.

[yiuheng]

Generally Chinese sword as said, is one handed.

The blades are on both sides unlike the jap sword.

in chinese jap sword = knife because it only has one sided blade

they seem flimsy as the are light and sharpness of blade is irrelevant to flimsyness of the sword.

and yeah, a lot more acrobats too.

[zato]

well...is it chines sword have wobbliness? i think the chinese sword is hard...may be the "wobbliness" is to show us the movement is fast or something...like a pencil you shake it up and down...it looks soft right?...(i hope you guys know what im talking about).

[ZealUK]

Here's an article on antique jian (straight double edge) and dao swords (curved single edge).

http://www.northernwu.com/Swordgrp.htm

I don't think they are particularly wobbly.

[mingshi]

I believe the wobbliness only exist in movies or TV. They know how to make stage fight more exciting - as comparing to Japanese ones where all the excitement is build up towards the one-and-only cut (ref.: Sanjuro, or the recent Zatoichi). IMHO it has some reference to the weapons (props) as used in traditional Chinese Opera (esp. Peking Opera which is famous for actions). If you check out their sword it's only a thin piece of metal which can be bent by hand... Probably the same thing they use for wushu jian.

For historical stuff go read a book or visit the museum. The chinese swords making skill is faaaaar behind the japanese. Usually on display at the museum will be a rusty sword made out of copper (greenish) and iron. I don't think by any chance those can create a wobbly effect at all.

[ZealUK]

Some Chinese swords were very well made. I don't know about the quality of the blades themselves, but this one....

http://www.royalarmouries.org//extsite/view.jsp?sectionId=473

...is very nice.

They have a few nice Jian and DaDao there as well. I live very close so I get to gawp at all the weapons on a regular basis.

[Optomitrist]

The Chinese philosophy of taoism comes to mind. The tao is circular and flexible. This wonderful ideal has been implamented in the art, architecture and of course the weapons in chinese culture. Flexability is considered to be better to deal with situations. Altho the really flexible weapons in the movies are usually aluminum and are not real. The carbon steel replicas do not bend for the most part.

Now the chinese weapons are not entirely one sided, dont for get the tai chi sword. And as far as the differences are concered between the chinese and japanese sword arts, the two handed tai chi sword and tai chi broad sword have very similar movements found in japanese sword arts.

[DCPan]

Actually, soft Chinese swords do exist.

They are usually made as belt swords, and are in fact, so soft that when you hold it, the sword doesn't remain straight (no Viagra jokes please :wink: ).

It is actually an indicator of skill how straight you can make the sword be while swinging it...meaning you understand the motion.

That's really for the internal styled arts though, and rarely seen.

A similarly function is served by tassles...a skilled Chinese swordsman, when in motion, will have the tassles extended in such a way as to appear rigid and in line with the line of the blade.

FWIW.

[Sôjirô]

geh.. nothin is like as a good katana...

[Koki]

The sword is only as good as the swordman.

Anyway, the sword making skills of chinese were at the top of the world during ancient time. While the Greek and then the Roman were still using short sword (because if they forged a longer one, it would break during battle), the chinese already knew how to forge a long sword.

Comparing a katana with a chinese jian is like comparing apples and oranges. They are different weapons for different style of martial arts. Even among chinese jian, you already have so many different kinds.

[Yo...osh!]

So that's the question. Were (authentic) Chinese swords much more flexible(and presumably a lot thinner), and if so why?

cheers,
Jason
Before I started Kendo, I practised one year of Wushu (I still practice once a week), including the straight sword. I can tell you that the sword is only thin and flexible in order faciliate the movements in wushu.

There are many FAST movements in Chinese wordplay. At its best, you almost create like a force-field around youself because of the speed of the sword. That is only possible with a light, thin and flexible sword with good balance. Authentic swords (for battle) were not wobbly.

I must say, the movements, cuts and swordplay in wushu is exhilirating and so much fun to do. There are limitless possibilities as to how to use the sword. The sword really becomes part of the natural movements of your body.

However what I found frustrating was that ultimately, it's all for show. There is no "Chinese fencing". There is no way 2 Chinese swordsmen could challenge each other. Because there are no rules and protection equipment.

[jackchen]

Before I started Kendo, I practised one year of Wushu (I still practice once a week), including the straight sword. I can tell you that the sword is only thin and flexible in order faciliate the movements in wushu.

There are many FAST movements in Chinese wordplay. At its best, you almost create like a force-field around youself because of the speed of the sword. That is only possible with a light, thin and flexible sword with good balance. Authentic swords (for battle) were not wobbly.

I must say, the movements, cuts and swordplay in wushu is exhilirating and so much fun to do. There are limitless possibilities as to how to use the sword. The sword really becomes part of the natural movements of your body.

However what I found frustrating was that ultimately, it's all for show. There is no "Chinese fencing". There is no way 2 Chinese swordsmen could challenge each other. Because there are no rules and protection equipment.
Is chinese swordsmanship a really practical art to use in real fights?

[Yo...osh!]

I think no.

But I can be convinced by an experienced Chinese swordsman practitioner. Since I only have one year experience.

When we learn straightsword, we learn complex movements. Spinning, twisting, thrusts in all directions aiming at all body parts, incorporating kicks and jumps. The cuts are more like whips then kendo cuts.

I say it's not practical because for example when we learn a block, we simply do the blocking movement without having a real sword thrust at us. We're just told, "this is a block".

When we thrust and cut, we just cut air.

Therefore, how can we react if a real sword was coming? How can we hit the target accurately with our thrust when we only thrust at air?

This is the fundamental problem with Chinese swordplay as i see it.

[Ninjujinkaku]

Is chinese swordsmanship a really practical art to use in real fights?
It is practical, otherwise it wouldn't still exist. Even so all sword arts are impractical today in a real fight.

[jackchen]

Practical as in WAS it actually been used effectively in the past by swordsmen.
Or is it more for show?

Cutting air has nothing to do with the practicability of the art. Cutting air is just the way you chose to train. The art itself might still be practical, and that's what I wish to know.

Comparing Chinese and Japanese swordsmanship, which one do you think is more practical?

[Hisham]

It's all about the swordsman's skill.

[JasonC]

Before I started Kendo, I practised one year of Wushu (I still practice once a week), including the straight sword. I can tell you that the sword is only thin and flexible in order faciliate the movements in wushu.

There are many FAST movements in Chinese wordplay. At its best, you almost create like a force-field around youself because of the speed of the sword. That is only possible with a light, thin and flexible sword with good balance. Authentic swords (for battle) were not wobbly.

I must say, the movements, cuts and swordplay in wushu is exhilirating and so much fun to do. There are limitless possibilities as to how to use the sword. The sword really becomes part of the natural movements of your body.

However what I found frustrating was that ultimately, it's all for show. There is no "Chinese fencing". There is no way 2 Chinese swordsmen could challenge each other. Because there are no rules and protection equipment.
Thanks for all the replies. As discussed above, one does rather get the impression that 'modern' Chinese sword-work bears little relation to how people fought in ancient China.

[Yo...osh!]

Thanks for all the replies. As discussed above, one does rather get the impression that 'modern' Chinese sword-work bears little relation to how people fought in ancient China.
I have to agree with u. Wushu swordplay is all about impressing the judges with speed of cuts & thrusts, how long and low you can hold ur dance, creativity, flexibility, posture. It has almost nothing to do with fighting in real life.

I'm sure however that some traditional kung-fu schools, who are usually disgusted with wushu, may disagree. They will probably argue that their swordplay is authentic and practical. But the best argument they can come up with is that they practice their forms "so well" that they can "react to any situation".

I want to note this quote by Kiyota Minoru in his book Kendo: Its Philosophy, History, and Means to Personal Growth. He argued that before bogu and shinai was invented, the practical skills of swordsmen suffered because they solely practiced kata.

"By the 18th century, the emphasis on swordsmanship was on theory rather than skill. The likelihood of fatal injury and death from duels meant that kata (prearranged forms), rather than combat practice became the dominant form of training practice. The over-emphasis on kata made swordsmanship a ritual of stylized swordsmanship, the effect of which could stifle the practitioner’s creativity and mold him purely into an aesthetic figure."

[Yo...osh!]

how long and low you can hold ur dance"
Sorry. I meant "stance"

[npk9]

Being from a traditional background - I find that the wushu swords a light and flimsy (just my personal opinion). Using a light and flexible sword to "accomodate" the practictioners form is just an excuse. Many of those swords are off balance and bottom heavy. I don't know what wu-shu weapon is not ultra-light. Even their kwan-dao and bu-dao (battleaxe) are superlight compared to the traditionalists weapons.

Don't get me wrong - I appreciate wu-shu for what it presents to a person practicing it - but compared to traditional - theres little if any practicality.

[Yo...osh!]

Many of those swords are off balance and bottom heavy. I don't know what wu-shu weapon is not ultra-light. Even their kwan-dao and bu-dao (battleaxe) are superlight compared to the traditionalists weapons.

Yes, you are right about the swords. I tried so hard to find a decent straightsword. The truth is, 99.9% of swords coming out of China are utter rubbish. That is because the popularity of swordplay movies has commercialised the sword industry. So there are many people out there making "pretty" swords that are off-balance.

In Wushu, we are told that a sword is balanced if you can put one finger just after the handle, and the sword balances. Is that the same in traditional?

On the other hand the Japanese government protects their master swordsmiths and tries to make it less commercialisd. There are laws restricting certain swordsmiths to making only 6 swords a year. But the swordsmith are subsidised by high taxes I think.

I think it just means the end result is that a Japanese master swordsmith can make the same money if he made 6 swords a year, to if he made 20 swords a year. Obviously, the quality of the 6 swords will be better than the 20 swords. This stops the industry from becoming too commercialised, thus preserving the quality of swordmaking.

This is just my interpretation of the laws. If anyone knows in better detail, please correct me.

[DCPan]

Thanks for all the replies. As discussed above, one does rather get the impression that 'modern' Chinese sword-work bears little relation to how people fought in ancient China.

Well...considering that what is loosely terms as "wushu" nowadays is a set of standardized routines from 1939, I would seriously doubt it is representative of what classical chinese martial art is like. There is simply no way those standardize routines can encompass the northern and southern style, and hard vs. soft style.

As for two-person work, there is two person sword work in Chinese swordplay...they just don't teach it until you have a good grasp of the basics...much like how it takes a while to get into bogu in kendo.

Even in tai-chi sword, advanced practitioner do the sword version of "push hands".

FWIW.

[Optomitrist]

Yes yes, you can thank the movie industry. But then again. Without those great movies many of us would have never seen through the eyes of other cultures and their legendary warriors.


And you can't tell me soldiers fighting in the chinese dynasty periods went to war with rubberband like swords. No way.

[DCPan]

And you can't tell me soldiers fighting in the chinese dynasty periods went to war with rubberband like swords. No way.

Of course not.

The belt swords were meant to be concealed weapons.

Not to mention, the common foot soldier wouldn't have the skills to use a whip sword.

[Yo...osh!]

Well...considering that what is loosely terms as "wushu" nowadays is a set of standardized routines from 1939, I would seriously doubt it is representative of what classical chinese martial art is like. There is simply no way those standardize routines can encompass the northern and southern style, and hard vs. soft style.
Yes. After doing some reading, I realised that modern wushu is Chinese government prescribed "dance forms". They took ancient martial arts to pieces, changing the martial applications into aethetically beautiful movements. It is still a quasi-martial art, as in some of the punches and kicks are "theorecticaly" practicable.

Swordplay movies like hero and HOFD are modern Wushu. Jet li himself was Wushu champion 5 times during his youth. It is basically chereographed two man dance routine. I don't think it is even close to how people fought in ancient times. I'm sorry if u feel a bit cheated.

[DCPan]

Swordplay movies like hero and HOFD are modern Wushu. Jet li himself was Wushu champion 5 times during his youth. It is basically chereographed two man dance routine. I don't think it is even close to how people fought in ancient times. I'm sorry if u feel a bit cheated.

Cheated for what?

BTW, I wouldn't discount Jet Li yet...he might have done san-soo. In any event, I wouldn't call it "just dancing".

FWIW.

[Yo...osh!]

"I'm sorry if u feel cheated"

Sorry that wasn't directed at you DCPan.

Cheated as in this forum was asking whether the Chinese swordplay that we see is how people fought in ancient times. Since I said no...maybe some people feel a bit cheated because they thought they were realistic, practical applications.

[Optomitrist]

yeah, didn't the martial art styles and china have to go through several transformations due to the political stronghold over such matters. The arts such as wushu had the me more "flower" then "power". haha

[DCPan]

yeah, didn't the martial art styles and china have to go through several transformations due to the political stronghold over such matters. The arts such as wushu had the me more "flower" then "power". haha

Rumors has it that the Chinese were trying to do to wushu what the Japanese did for bujutsu...whereas the Japanese came up with budo.... :wink:

[npk9]

Cheated for what?

BTW, I wouldn't discount Jet Li yet...he might have done san-soo. In any event, I wouldn't call it "just dancing".

FWIW.
Thats funny - Jet Li doing San Soo. I don't think so. The governement would never allow that. Have you ever seen a wu-shu practioner and san-soo practioner. 2 totally different body types. I have met the Team A of the Wu-Shu Institute from China and they are NOT fighters in any respect - granted their wu-shu skills are second to none but they cannot fight and probably (I hate to say it) wouldn't even stand against a mediocre Karate practioner. Wu-Shu practioners and simply not trained to stand in the ring just as San-soo practioners don't do butterfly twists - nor would they even place in the top 45% in a forms competition :ko: .
.
Yes I personally do feel cheated because the goverment has ripped up so many roots of traditional kung-fu.

[npk9]

"By the 18th century, the emphasis on swordsmanship was on theory rather than skill. The likelihood of fatal injury and death from duels meant that kata (prearranged forms), rather than combat practice became the dominant form of training practice. The over-emphasis on kata made swordsmanship a ritual of stylized swordsmanship, the effect of which could stifle the practitioner’s creativity and mold him purely into an aesthetic figure."As a traditionalist - I would have to agree 100%!!!!!

[npk9]

"By the 18th century, the emphasis on swordsmanship was on theory rather than skill. The likelihood of fatal injury and death from duels meant that kata (prearranged forms), rather than combat practice became the dominant form of training practice. The over-emphasis on kata made swordsmanship a ritual of stylized swordsmanship, the effect of which could stifle the practitioner’s creativity and mold him purely into an aesthetic figure."As a traditionalist - I would have to agree 100%!!!!!

[DCPan]

Thats funny - Jet Li doing San Soo. I don't think so. The governement would never allow that. Have you ever seen a wu-shu practioner and san-soo practioner. 2 totally different body types.

Hmm...while training does affect body development, I would not say only people of a certain body type do a certain art.

Also, I was under the impression that "san soo" is equivalent to Chinese free-sparring....

Just because somebody's main style is something doesn't mean they can not or will not cross-train.

I'm not saying that Jet Li did san soo, but I wouldn't be surprised if he got curious about what other arts are like.

How many people know Jackie Chan also did Hapkido?

When you train for a while, one is bound to be curious about other arts, even if they don't actively practice them.

I'm not even going into the laundry list of the stuff I cross-trained in, and I'm just a hobbyist at best.

FWIW.

[npk9]

Hmm...while training does affect body development, I would not say only people of a certain body type do a certain art.

Also, I was under the impression that "san soo" is equivalent to Chinese free-sparring....

Just because somebody's main style is something doesn't mean they can not or will not cross-train.

I'm not saying that Jet Li did san soo, but I wouldn't be surprised if he got curious about what other arts are like.

How many people know Jackie Chan also did Hapkido?

When you train for a while, one is bound to be curious about other arts, even if they don't actively practice them.

I'm not even going into the laundry list of the stuff I cross-trained in, and I'm just a hobbyist at best.

FWIW. I agree w/you only to a certain point. What I am saying is that in order to be successful (being top 10% of all practioners - realm of competition). Jet Li was built for forms. He most likely had cross trained but you don't see top forms compeititors being top fighters either. It can happen no doubt - but likelihood of that is very slim. Practicing an art and being successful (whether it be master of the art or a top competitor) in that art are 2 totally different things - I am speaking of the latter.

[ISSAC RU]

the real 武道 lives in ur mind...not ur body..

[Yo...osh!]

the real 武道 lives in ur mind...not ur body..
Actually, I agree and disagree.

Have u seen 7 samurai? The samurai who could predict danger and avert it without harming others was selected straight away. That's the real essence of budo. One should be at peace with others.

On the other hand, as well as having that mental philosophical state, you have to be competent with your body.

Because if you tried everything to remain peaceful and the other party still attacks you aggressively, then u need the physical skill to bring everything back to harmony. This is actually the one of the most important principles in aikido.

[Yo...osh!]

Just because somebody's main style is something doesn't mean they can not or will not cross-train.

I'm not saying that Jet Li did san soo, but I wouldn't be surprised if he got curious about what other arts are like.
DC Pan, i think Jet Li did cross-train too, myself. Although he never became a competitor so we'll never know how good he is.

Have u seen Fist of Legend? He was doing boxing, tae-kwon-do, thai-boxing, all sorts of different moves. Whilst I'm no expert to those arts, they looked pretty damn clean and well-executed.

BTW, that has to be his best movie...I can't believe nothing has come close since. That movie should have set the standard!! I'm so disappointed....

[ISSAC RU]

actually i have seen a tv show called US martial arts Open 2004 @ TSN

perticulerly one of their competition is very interesting.

Chinese dan-shou-fu-jian ( single handed Fu sword ) Vs Japanese Katana sword

the basic rule is the strike to the point when u can kill the opp.and u have stop by that point.

the chinese swordman is a girl from China Central Wushu acadmy.
the japanese katana sword user is a 4 dan in Iaido i believe.

the chinese girl point the tick of the sword at the iaidoka 's throat
when the iaidoka just lift his sword up as a jodan position.

in fact , chinese swordmanship is really useful in the real battle.
its just westerners have poor version of chinese swordmanship
because most of them haven't seen the real skillful swordman
from China.

[jackchen]

So which is more practical? Chinese or Japanese swordsmanship?

Please don't give me answers like "it depends on the swordman."

I'm comparing the art of swordsmanship now, not swordsman vs swordsman.

The art itself has no skill level.

Thanks

[ISSAC RU]

I think i will go with the japanese swordmanship..
cuz chinese swordmanship requirs a certain amount of physic ability , aglity and
cunning body.
If you wanna be a good chinese swordman , i think u should really start to trainning when u r like 5 -8 something like that..
Like all the other experts in the form said..
chinese swordmanship is a mix of the use of sword and physical martial art
which involve with a lot of jumping and kicking with it.

[KOMA]

Yes, flexible steel
was used for high quality swords. Ancient swords were crude and so were very
heavy, requiring two hands to use. As the quality of swordsmithing improved,
swords became lighter and springy making fast single handed use easier. The
straightsword is known as a scholar's weapon. True scholars were adept at the
Five Excellences: Music, Poetry, Healing, Calligraphy, and Swordsmanship. A
light and flexible sword was not made for parrying a katana, or decapitating an
opponent...but that does not mean that one sword is inferior to the other...they
are just different tools for different purposes. Fencing is quite a refined
art...involving opening and closing gates, attacking and defending
vulnerabilities, this requires a highly responsive weapon. Chinese swordsmanship
does not require someone to jump around and do fancy kicks...that is more
associated with modern wushu. The swords made for wushu today are definitely not
high quality fencing swords...those tools are for the purposes of modern wushu
demonstrations.

[Koki]

So which is more practical? Chinese or Japanese swordsmanship?

Please don't give me answers like "it depends on the swordman."

I'm comparing the art of swordsmanship now, not swordsman vs swordsman.

The art itself has no skill level.

Thanks
Swordmanship has no limits.

All martial arts lead to the same destination. Chinese or japanese is just another route. How far you can go is up to you!

I don't think you can compare those two like you said. It is meaningless.

[Jin'Gang]

I think i will go with the japanese swordmanship..
cuz chinese swordmanship requirs a certain amount of physic ability , aglity and
cunning body.
If you wanna be a good chinese swordman , i think u should really start to trainning when u r like 5 -8 something like that..
Like all the other experts in the form said..
chinese swordmanship is a mix of the use of sword and physical martial art
which involve with a lot of jumping and kicking with it.
Regarding whether Chinese swordsmanship or Japanese Swordsmanship, they all require certain amount of physic ability , aglity and cunning body. I learned Japanese swordsmanship from my grandfather and then I learn one of the special Chinese swordsmanship from my master. It is this special Sword form change my concept about swords. I finally choose Chinese sword over Japanese sword. The wisdom and philosophy behind Chinese swordmanship is amazing. No matter Chinese or Japanese swordsmanship, the most importnat part is the philosophy behind it. I start on Chinese swordsmanship when I was 17 years old. Sword is used to adapt your body movement. If you close your eyes and use your mind to observe how you practice Japanese sword, you will also see a martial form that does not require sword at all. It is another way to advance your sword practice besides daily practice with a sword in your hand.

[TylerY]

Japanese Sword is to deliver a critical blow with as much speed, power, and precision as possible, whereas the Chinese sword art in question (in the movies, at least) seems to expend enormous amounts of energy to dance around their opponent to confuse them or something.

In this case, it's the Japanese sword that's more practical than the flimsy aluminum foil tv-swords.

However, there are 18 different chinese weapons, at least 3 of them (correct me if I'm wrong) different versions of a sword(s), each of them with lots of different ways of wielding them. I'm sure in the hands of a skilled user, they can beat an equally skilled kendoka.

[kanyil]

Excellent discussions all. I will take the position of the devil's advocate and argue that both types are, by now, only a sport or an art that people to to better themselves either physically or mentally. The days of the deadly martial artists who roam the world undefeated are by now, largely over.

The topic of "which one's deadlier" is probably moot by this point, as the Chinese "Yi-Huh-Chuan" and Takeda Shingen's calvary have found out by being on the wrong side of many a musket.

The firearm allows persons with only a quick introduction and a little practice with the weapon to kill a person who devoted all their lives to the sword. Eventually, it became economically cheaper and easier for warlords to have a team of musketmen than 1 master swordsman. One could outfit a moderately accurate 10 men team of Chinese 7.62 SKS wielding gunmen (with ammos and all) nowadays for less than USD$2000 and a week's time, and whereas USD$2,000 would buy you 1 shinken.

Those pistol grabbing martial arts moves only work in the movies, or when the lone gunman (you are screwed if there are more than one guy pointing at you anyways) has failed to keep their distance (dare I say maai?). :D

[Hisham]

So which is more practical? Chinese or Japanese swordsmanship?
Please don't give me answers like "it depends on the swordman."
I'm comparing the art of swordsmanship now, not swordsman vs swordsman.
What do you mean by practical? anyway i second Kanyil in other words you want a practical and efficient way of killing nowadays get yourself a Magnum.
No offence but i think that your question belongs to the past.And i'll again say that at that time it would've depended on the swordsman's skill, why? because if you're a true folower of the martial way you won't repeat the forms stupidely while in battle might you be japanese or chinese.The forms IMHO were there to give the martial artist a flexible body on which he/she can count on in battle.


The art itself has no skill level You've answered your own question.
Too many relative factors to be able to compare based on practicality.
Some compare martial arts based on this:
Linear ,circular or both
Internal , external or both
Soft , hard or both
When the case is "both" you'll have for instance an art with more or less of the two factors, and i stand corrected.

[Nickels&dimes]

Just my two cents:



I came upon this while googling Chinese swords. 1st and foremost, I am Chinese American; all my official training has been Japanese: karate, judo, and kendo (which I adore). I apologize in advance for the rambling, and broken theme.



‘chinese swords making skill is faaaaar behind the japanese.’



Chinese swords making technologies was in the forefront of the world since 500-400BC., examine: the bronze sword of king of State of Wu during the Warring states period(500-221BC), the Han and Tang dynasty (200BC – 618AD) popularly used straight steel saber: clay-defined differential heat-treatment, the ridged "kiriha-zukuri" cross-section, the distinct and independently-shaped piercing point, forged / folded, incorporating forge-welded/laminated construction, two handed grip with right hand on top: (to me all this sounds familiar!) And the Ming and Qing dynasty sabers and double-edged swords I’ve seen in museums have clear harmon showing.







‘chinese sword have to be one handed and light because chinese sword art has a lot of kick's and acrobatic movement. ‘



Chinese swords are not one handed or light. Swordsmanship and wushu (acrobatic martial art) are different things.





Taichi swords is only one aspect, it and wushu are in no way representation of Chinese swordsmanship. Popular battle field weapons: spring and autumn to warring states period, heavy thick double-edged swords, Han dynasty, single edged sabers(by this time steel), Tang, Sui, and Song dynasty: long, heavy thick, broad sabers termed horse cutters, Southern Song Dynasty, thick broad double edged swords, Ming and Qing Dynasty, slim-bodied sabers.



‘However what I found frustrating was that ultimately, it's all for show. There is no "Chinese fencing". There is no way 2 Chinese swordsmen could challenge each other. Because there are no rules and protection equipment.’



Totally agree, from my knowledge, there are organizations in mainland china proposing establishment of competitive swordsmanship (fencing).



‘Is chinese swordsmanship a really practical art to use in real fights?’

The Wushu and Taichi types, no way.



‘Thanks for all the replies. As discussed above, one does rather get the impression that 'modern' Chinese sword-work bears little relation to how people fought in ancient China.’



Totally agree, When I asked for instructions in ‘traditional’ Chinese swordsmanship in China, I was told to learn epee fencing of the southern Italian school, as that was much more similar to swordsmanship during the warring states period than today’s wushu forms(as I was told).



‘Well...considering that what is loosely terms as "wushu" nowadays is a set of standardized routines from 1939, I would seriously doubt it is representative of what classical chinese martial art is like. There is simply no way those standardize routines can encompass the northern and southern style, and hard vs. soft style.’



Totally agree, preserving cultural heritage that has been destroyed or lost for the last 200+ years is no easy task. Trying to explore 17th century (Ming Dynasty) styles is hard, trying to grasp styles of the warring states

(500-200BC) of which every able-bodied male practiced swords and superiority in skills stressed practicality and sword making technology was fiercely competitive, is nearly impossible.



Not only do martial artists in the west have little ideas of classical Chinese styles, lots of martial artists (wushu) in China have little ideas too. If one want to learn a classic style, then find instructors of TongBei, BaJi, and FanZi fists from the culturally rich Northwestern regions (start of the silk road, capital region of 13 dynasties with Muslim influences in many aspects of life and m.art.). Few in China knows them, and even fewer outside of mainland. Even those 3 styles have now become too stylized, The shifting of social emphasis to Confusion ideals, abandonment of warrior tradition during long periods of unification, foreign invasions, political turmoil, civil war, cultural revolution…





‘Swordplay movies like hero and HOFD are modern Wushu. Jet li himself was Wushu champion 5 times during his youth. It is basically chereographed two man dance routine. I don't think it is even close to how people fought in ancient times. I'm sorry if u feel a bit cheated.’



Jet Li was 4 time all around champion, Meaning: Free Sparring, long/short weapons, long fist, southern fist and I believe yang style tai chi (long form)

So he knows his striking skill.

The performance was not historically accurate, but the swords do look period correct 225-221BC (warring states blades showing li’s blade from state of Qin (North western China) which should be of bronze and the blade ‘snow’ the 1st time iron swords were developed (state of Chao (North eastern China).

[Nickels&dimes]

‘yeah, didn't the martial art styles and china have to go through several transformations due to the political stronghold over such matters. The arts such as wushu had the me more "flower" then "power".’



Totally agree. What is popularized under the current government has more to do with promoting good health than approving the teaching of practical combat skills to civilians, especially sword arts. This is what a mainland instructor told me…



‘in fact, chinese swordsmanship is really useful in the real battle.

its just westerners have poor version of chinese swordmanship

because most of them haven't seen the real skillful swordman

from China.’



Totally agree, the problem is very few Chinese has seen what real swordsmanship is about too! I truly hope this kind of discussion would 1) lead to more emphasis by the mainland gov. to better preserve cultural heritage and establish an international organization to promote and inform the public. 2) Get the five major schools五岳剑派 (if not mistaken, been around at least since Ming Dynasty 1500s): 华山派, 嵩山派, 恒山派, 衡山派, 泰山派

and all regional schools to open their closed mountain gates and inform the public. It is hard to find students of the sword in today’s world, but these schools/clans just make it even harder to obtain instructions.



‘Like all the other experts in the form said..

chinese swordmanship is a mix of the use of sword and physical martial art

which involve with a lot of jumping and kicking with it.’



Chinese swordsmanship is not performing jumping jacks and somersaults. Please don’t confuse flowery wushu gymnastic routines using aluminum sheet metal with swordsmanship. The current misinformation of Chinese martial heritage is very alarming…



Again sorry for the rumbling, the following 4 links should provide answer to the original question in MUCH better detail. These are the best English website on the topic I’ve found.





http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/articles/articles.php?page=articles&subpage=art&secondCrumb=The%20Art%20of%20the%20Chinese%20Sword (http://www.sevenstarstrading.com/articles/articles.php?page=articles&subpage=art&secondCrumb=The%20Art%20of%20the%20Chinese%20Sword )



http://forum.japantoday.com/Traditional_Chinese_Sword_Crafts_-_A_Forgetten_Art%3F/m_401345/tm.htm (http://forum.japantoday.com/Traditional_Chinese_Sword_Crafts_-_A_Forgetten_Art%3F/m_401345/tm.htm)



http://www.zhengwutang.com/chinese/chinese.htm (http://www.zhengwutang.com/chinese/chinese.htm)



http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/index.html (http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/index.html)

[Pokie]

wow yeh hard to imagine what it would be like..imagine trying to catch a bending sword..with kaeshi just say it bends and cuts too while trying to catch it..oh man...is katana longer though ? haha if it is, strong first strike at sutemi should do the trick.

[KhawMengLee]

Japanese Sword is to deliver a critical blow with as much speed, power, and precision as possible, whereas the Chinese sword art in question (in the movies, at least) seems to expend enormous amounts of energy to dance around their opponent to confuse them or something.


Think of it in terms of a bastard sword and a rapier...you can cleave an opponent in two with a bastard sword but not with a rapier. However, with a rapier one can train to slash and stab as you dart in and out of range.

Think about the gimto(chinese sword) in terms of the rapier. Fast multiple strikes in different unarmoured areas.

The blade has limitations and strengths that the style adapts too.

[Twobitmage]

It is practical, otherwise it wouldn't still exist. Even so all sword arts are impractical today in a real fight.

I agree. Though that doesnt mean that all of the ones that survived till this day are nessecarily the best, it does mean that (presumably) they must have worked to some extent...

Question to a previous poster, was the wushu just for show? or was it the traditional stuff? i.e. were there alot of fancy flipping movements etc?

oh and while I doint claim to be an expert on chinese ma, please dont compare real life kung fu/wushu to the stuff you see in movies. The chinese equivelant of koryu (rather than the showy modern stuff) is just as straightforward and effective as a japanese art.

comparing chinese swordsmanship to the dancy stuff you see in a jet li movie is just as much a travesty as comparing kendo/kenjutsu to kill bill.

[Kendoka_Shogun]

w00t. The Spear in HERO was cool.

NOW THAT WAS WOBBLY

[Ninjujinkaku]

Chinese weapons such as the straight sword and the spear are supposed to be flexible. The chinese speedy whip like slashes and thrusts primarily why the weapons are flexible. Also most of the time when you see a kill with a chinese weapon it is with a thrust.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Chinese weapons such as the straight sword and the spear are supposed to be flexible.
Read the second post in this thread (http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50368) for at least one person who disagrees with you on this.

[jackchen]

Chinese weapons such as the straight sword and the spear are supposed to be flexible. The chinese speedy whip like slashes and thrusts primarily why the weapons are flexible. Also most of the time when you see a kill with a chinese weapon it is with a thrust.

Too many movies? :)

Chinese jian is stiff, and in fact thicker than a katana.

[JSchmidt]

Also most of the time when you see a kill with a chinese weapon it is with a thrust.

So, erhhh...how many kills have you seen?.

Jakob

[Katonk]

...The blades are on both sides unlike the jap sword.

in chinese jap sword = knife because it only has one sided blade

....


Was anybody else offended by this?

[Paikea]

Was anybody else offended by this?If you read other posts by yiuheng I think you'll see that it probably was not meant to be offensive. Perhaps just a translation glitch?

[jackchen]

Actually I'm curious. Why is "jap" supposed to be offensive?

[mingshi]

Chinese has seen what real swordsmanship is about too! I truly hope this kind of discussion would 1) lead to more emphasis by the mainland gov. to better preserve cultural heritage and establish an international organization to promote and inform the public. 2) Get the five major schools五岳剑派 (if not mistaken, been around at least since Ming Dynasty 1500s): 华山派, 嵩山派, 恒山派, 衡山派, 泰山派...and all regional schools to open their closed mountain gates and inform the public. It is hard to find students of the sword in today’s world, but these schools/clans just make it even harder to obtain instructions.

These are really "sword" "schools"???? Sounds to me somebody is mixing Chin Yung's fiction into reality...

I have been to 2 out of 5 of your mountains, and sorry no swords there.

[Kendo_McMole]

this is similar in 'hero' as well as 'crouching tiger'.
The guy's sword is flexible as he catches something on the end and flicks it.

[Kendo_McMole]

this is similar in 'hero' as well as 'crouching tiger'.
The guy's sword is flexible as he catches something on the end and flicks it.

[Katonk]

Actually I'm curious. Why is "jap" supposed to be offensive?

Jap is considered offensive, Nip is considered offensive. Why? These were derogatory terms used against the Japanese during WWII. Perhaps not as strong as the "N" word for African-Americans, but nonetheless considered offensive. Of course I'm writing from a Japanese-American perspective, but I have many family friends and relatives which were subjected to this very type of discrimination during WWII and ultimately being put into internment camps.

Anyway - sorry about the diatribe about Japanese-American ethnic relations, but just to satisfy jackchen's curiosity....

[MrUnWaki]

katanas are made from solid folded steel, which gives it an extra hard and stiffness, chinese swords are made from inferior materials in a factory run by one sweaty foreman with over 500 sweatshop workers moulding and pressing the metal (possibly aluminum) and they all have made in china written on them. Although recently the quality of the chinese products have become higher so maybe we shall see better products int he future

[Twobitmage]

katanas are made from solid folded steel, which gives it an extra hard and stiffness, chinese swords are made from inferior materials in a factory run by one sweaty foreman with over 500 sweatshop workers moulding and pressing the metal (possibly aluminum) and they all have made in china written on them. Although recently the quality of the chinese products have become higher so maybe we shall see better products int he future

*head esplode*

[Guan Yu]

To clean up some misconceptions.

Chinese swords were not "whippy" or "ultra flexible" infact, they were quite the opposite, how do you think the chinese conquered vast lands and even defeated a numerically superior japanese force in the imjin war if their swords were so useless?

I have handled antique chinese swords that were the same quality as any nihonto, They are folded steel and differentially hardened making them just as tough and sharp as a katana.

If you think chinese swords couldn't compare to their japanese counterparts than take a look at this account of a battle between the samurai and chinese warriors...

In year 40 the japanese samurai pirates raided Tao Zhu and Qi Tou. Qi Ji Guang hurried to thier location, and went to battle at them, Qi Ji Guang slew the leader of the pirates with his own hands, and the samurai were slaughtered .And then Tai Zhou was attacked again this time by the pirates in Qi Tou, Qi Ji Guang intercepted and attacked and destroyed the samurai, none of them escaped on the way.Qi Ji Guang Successively won all 9 battles, took more than one thousand enemy heads, and executed countless more.

Of course, i'm not saying japanese swords were inferior, but they were only equal to the swords in other parts of the world.

[kanyil]

These are really "sword" "schools"???? Sounds to me somebody is mixing Chin Yung's fiction into reality...

I will change my name to Hsi-Men Chueh-Hsuh and start blowing snow/blood off my shinai after each keiko. Until my friend Lu the Little Phoenix comes in and catches it between his finger tips, that is. Gu-Long will be proud.

*enough*

On a separate note, I went and saw the show "A Touch of Zen" last week. It's a show combining Taiko drumming, Kung-Fu story line, and Shaolin Wushu (performed by young Shaolin monks from the Shaolin Temple Wushu Academy, of course). The idea behind the show is that Martial Arts and Zen are two sides of the same coin.

The empty handed routines were beautiful, even mesmerizing, but routines involving weapons were, er, generally underwhelming (except for the spear, which was not outfitted with an aluminum foil blade for obvious reasons). But the soft whip routine was impressive, and Chinese flail routine (aka Lio-Hsin-Tray - Meteor Hammers) was eye candy.

The sword routines were atrocious, but at least the acrobatic jumps/flips/spins/splits were interesting to see. The worst offender, IMHO, was the GuanDao (aka Halberd?), it's suppose to be a heavy weapon, but the aluminum foil blade, rather than making the whole thing look better, made the routine look absolutely terrible.

I don't believe for a minute that Chinese martial arts were ineffective in the "old days". Otherwise they would not have survived. The Wushus of today are more like gymnastics (same way Kendo has been said to be a sport, etc), but I'm sure there must be Chinese "koryus" around.

[tattooedasshole]

katanas are made from solid folded steel, which gives it an extra hard and stiffness, chinese swords are made from inferior materials in a factory run by one sweaty foreman with over 500 sweatshop workers moulding and pressing the metal (possibly aluminum) and they all have made in china written on them. Although recently the quality of the chinese products have become higher so maybe we shall see better products int he future
Wow....This is hilarious. You need to do some research into katana, the folding methodes, and why they were done that way, also, the history behind where the japanese first learned to make swords.
The aluminum blades you're speaking of are iaito, and irelevant to this convo.

The hardness and stiffness of a katana has NOTHING to do with the folding of the steel!!!!!!!

[Yo...osh!]

but I'm sure there must be Chinese "koryus" around.

If anyone knows of any traditional kung fu schools that actually do fencing, i.e. sparring with Chinese swords, I'd like to know!!!!

It seems that they don't have a kamae position...they have so many stances but what is the on guard position in a sparring match?????

Kanyil I'd be careful about "Shaolin Monk" shows...you probably already know but the last genuine Shaolin temple was burnt down by the KMT, and the Communist Party revived it for tourism reasons. There is a hell of a lot of private "Shaolin" schools in that area claiming to do Shaolin kung Fu....and they love to make a buck doing shows overseas.

[Twobitmage]

yo..osh

I posted some schools in austrailia somewheres in the forums. Maybe you can try to do a search for them? I could try to find them again but right now i'm feeling kinda lazy..

[Feng Huang]

just to clear some things up:

as Guan Yu said, the chinese swords were never as flimsy as the ones seen in modern chinese pop-culture. the ancient chinese swords were often forged to similar if not better quality than your average japanese sword, indeed the japanese have been better known for their sword quality, but do you know who taught the japanese to make their swords...it was the Chinese. I have had the privelage of studying the Chinese sword for many years (and handling quite a few antiques), and can tell you that the Chinese never used weopons such as the ones seen in the movies and tournaments of today, but rather high quality, and sometimes reletively stiff, swords. These swords were often made of the same folded steel as the katana, or of higher density, stronger steels. The Chinese created many ingenius forging methods and their systems of metalurgy which far surpassed that of the European or Japanese cultures. i have heard accounts of antique jian cutting ribbons off a modern high security gate, and have successfully made a few such tests myself. The Modern Chinese sword, which has been made famous by such movies as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and The House of Flying Daggers, is often made of a material reffered to as "Spring steel" or "Wushu steel". it has gained these names due too its springy nature and the fact that it was created for use in the martial art of wushu. wushu is the modernized version of gungfu(kung fu) and is widely practiced around the world predominantly in tournaments and competitions. Modern Wushu focusses largly on speed and flexibility. to increase the speed of each movement, the chinese decided to shave off as much wright as possible from their weapons, the side effect of this was to create inferior weapons with little martial value, but that did not matter because modern Wushu is not meant for combat, but rather for competion. The swords would never have to cut anything.

So to answer your question, no, the chinese swords were never really like that, these types of swords only started appearing in the mid 1900's. before that the chinese sword was an amazing weapon which has not been given the proper praise that it should have gotten.

[Feng Huang]

Chinese weapons such as the straight sword and the spear are supposed to be flexible. The chinese speedy whip like slashes and thrusts primarily why the weapons are flexible. Also most of the time when you see a kill with a chinese weapon it is with a thrust.

oh, and this is wrong, the chinese jian was made predominantly for thrusting, it was an impecable thrusting weapon, wow, i hate ignorance

[Feng Huang]

katanas are made from solid folded steel, which gives it an extra hard and stiffness, chinese swords are made from inferior materials in a factory run by one sweaty foreman with over 500 sweatshop workers moulding and pressing the metal (possibly aluminum) and they all have made in china written on them. Although recently the quality of the chinese products have become higher so maybe we shall see better products int he future

dude...i hate you...this is one of the least true things ive ever read...once again, i hate ignorance... do some reasearch man...

oh, and sorry about the..triple posting

[jackchen]

Let's see if my video will clear things up a little:
http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=1120820706.wmv (http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=1120820706.wmv)

[ShinKenshi]

Very impressive. I now have a much higher opinion of Chinese swords (meaning going from indifferent to a great deal of respect). Now all I have to do is improve my Chinese, travel to China, find a swordsmith, and commision him to make me a good sword....that is...when I'm older and have enough cash to do all that and have enough left over to buy a good quality shinken :D.

[JSchmidt]

Let's see if my video will clear things up a little:
http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=1120820706.wmv (http://www.filecabi.net/v.php?file=1120820706.wmv)

I spent 3 years in a smiths workshop in Denmark. While I didn't make swords, I got a reasonable understanding of iron and steel and how you can shape them and that video doesnt show anything at all. If you follow it literally, they take iron ore and beat it into a sword...which simply just doesnt happen.

Jakob

[ShinKenshi]

I'm sure they truncated it for the sake of the TV program they were shooting it for. It looks like they shot this clip for a variety program or something so the producers probably edited the tape so that it only showed bits and pieces of the overall process. Another possiblity is that maybe the swordsmith didn't want them to show the entire process because he has a special smithing technique he didn't want seen. There's a reason for everything.

[mocax]

The technique used are very similar to the japanese.
Both result in extremely sharp and durable edges and ability to withstand shocks.
Of course, the japanese learned the skills from chinese long time ago :P

Japanese sword design then branch out into blades optimized for fighting on horseback. The design got so good, it's used in almost every combat situation.

As to the wobbly nature of swords and other weapons in chinese fighting movies, one has to understand the martial arts fiction culture. It's a total departure from real fighting. More exaggeration.
In chinese stories, the characters possess tremendous internal strength, capable of leaping buildings in a single bound, or punching holes in rock walls. They also wield weapons with considerable power and speed, hence even the toughest weapons will flex like toys :P

[walking dagger]

from the sword forging technique point of view...
All Japanese sword are folded with one type of steel, and laminated. The most popular lamination are kobuse, honsanmai and shihonzume. All Japanese swords are differential hardened through partially heating the blade edge with clay covering its spine and quench the blade, this result a hardened blade edge and softer spine. During quenching, the blade is in risk of cracking, or even breaking in two.



Chinese swords on the other hand, all authentic Chinese sword are fold and welded with two type of steel, and laminated. The most popular lamination is sanmei (equivalent to sanmai) and qiangang (inserting steel), baogang (kobuse) is extremely rare. Blade edge on some swords are differential tempered with application of an ash based solution to increase carbon content on the blade edge, this result a hardened blade edge and softer spine. During quenching, the blade is in risk of cracking, but rarely breaking in two.



Hardened edge.... generally, Japanese sword does have a harder blade edge compared to Chinese swords. But please keep in mind, harder the edge does not mean the sword is better. Where as a sharpened blade edge is over 62 hrc, the blade edge WILL CHIP by simply cutting aged bamboo. Glass is much harder than steel, but it will break easily, same theory apply for swords.



Quality of steel between China and Japan is rather similar, keep in mind Chinese technology in steel refinement is fairly advanced and mineral reserves in China is also very rich.



Quality.... if the comparison between a Chinese sword and a Japanese sword is made in the context of same dimension and geometry, quality of the two blade should be very similar.





Chinese swords are not "springy", authantic Chinese swords are very stiff.
http://www.zhengwutang.com/downloads/downloads.htm
Check out the first two videos, notice how much weight the person has to put on the blade for it to bend.



Combat training...
Chinese swordsmanship does do real combat training, when the student achieved certain level. If not, get another sifu!!!
Stance and posture training are to train students how to "move" and how to utilise combinations of movement and attack during combat, very much like foot work in fencing. If your sifu can not teach you the purpose of each movement or stance, it is a good indication to get a new sifu.

[overkill2]

Sorry to invade the thread, prepare for rant - pardon my sorry english.

Flexible weapons should not indicate weak weapons. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, the practicality of a perfectly hard blade rends it easily broken and impossible to keep from chipping while sharpening. A soft blade made for thrusting (as in modern fencing blades) just needs to be sharp. Having lots of professional experience in using highly flexible fencing blades, I can tell you just from using one that if it were sharp - it wouldnt take but a thought to puncture someone completely through - regardless of how flexible it is.

Infact, in a fight a flexible sword can easily defeat a rigid one. There are many ways, but the easiest to explain is called a coupe (coo-pay) - its french (whatever) - the move consits of "flicking" a flexible sword *importantly, without exposing any part of yourself as a target* so that the point reaches over the top (or around the side) of your opponents guard/hilt and pierces through the hand or wrist - rendering your opponent useless as a swordsperson instantly and in less than a second. The sabre has a similar move that normally wouldnt be possible with a traditional stiff blade. I have used this same technique to reach ANY part of the body - side of the head, anywhere on the spine, tendons, etc... However, attacking that which is nearest to you is the much safer route. Also to note, a rigid weapon travels one way all the time - a flexible weapon (depending on length) can move in multiple directions at the same time. *more skill required however, not for your average foot soldier*

So with experience I can account for the deadliness of using a flexible edged/pointed weapon. However, I cannot account for the would-be strength of this type of weapon during the period you all are talking about, or even if such a weapon was possible then. It most certainly is now, I honestly dont know why anyone making swords now (out side of Olympic competition) wouldnt take advantage of modern metalurgy.

As a side note for you sword makers out there:

For those of you wondering what type of metal has this immense strength, resiliance and flexibility - its called Maraging Steel. Currently what FIE standard fencing blades have been made from for at least 10 years. You can do a search for it - I found this http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art103.htm and heres a copy n paste of a bit.

"As compared with martensite-hardenable carbon-containing steels, carbonless maraging steels show, for the same strength, a substantially greater resistance to brittle fracture, which is their most remarkable merit. On tempering to the maximum strength, the ductility indices and impact toughness, though diminish somewhat, still remain rather high. The high ductility of the carbonless matrix and the high dispersity of uniformly distributed intermetallic precipitates are responsible for a very high resistance to cracking, which is the most valuable property of modern high-strength structural materials."

I really only point this out because after using a "wushu" style straight sword and modern fencing blades it occured to me that thinking only weapons made in the "traditional" rigid way is somehow superior to what we can make now is nonsense. The traditional way is an art - period. You dont see master blacksmiths forging space shuttle parts do you? (of course it may be an improvement - bad example) I enjoy "period" pieces as just that, a priceless work of which no 2 will ever be the same - an example of master craftmenship - form and function. However, they remain impractical in the face of evolved swordsmanship.

I have yet to see chinese or japenese style "practice" weapons or otherwise made from the same materials as modern fencing weapons - probably because of the cost factor. But I bet someone could make a fortune doing it for those who take the quality of their weapons more seriously than shiny stamped aluminum sheet. The flexibility of a weapon is not something to take lightly, I think entire new styles and systems could made to exploit this quality. I see the 3 sectioned staff as a perfect traditional example of attempting to move in this direction.

[overkill2]

Heres a more down to earth comparison of Maraging steel - Maraging Steel (HRc 52-55) is two times harder than stainless steel and 85% harder than pure titanium.


That should help put it in perspective.

[TwilightSamurai]

One of the strength (depends on how you look at it) of the Japanese is their ability to adapt/learn skills from others and work their bud off to improve on it. Sword making is such an example. (Other examples include: automobiles, home electronics, etc...)

[DragonSword]

Well... it seems that the conclusion is chiense swords and japanese swords are of equal. But i still think chinese swordsmanship would win japanese.. after all chinese have more ways of attacking and defence and counter attacking then the japanese...

[Kumdo-Star]

Having seen 'House of Flying Daggers' recently, I was reminded of an observation that I'd made a while ago after watching 'Crouching Tiger'. Namely that the Chinese swords in those two films have a rather high 'wobbliness factor' (tm). I thought it faintly absurd at the time, but having seen it now in several films, I'm wondering if it has any basis in reality.

So that's the question. Were (authentic) Chinese swords much more flexible(and presumably a lot thinner), and if so why?

cheers,
Jason
if you have time look up Wu Shu and you'll see all the chinese swords that they use Wushu if you don't know is part of Kung fu

[ShinKenshi]

if you have time look up Wu Shu and you'll see all the chinese swords that they use Wushu if you don't know is part of Kung fu Have you even read the other posts? Wu Shu is not indicative of classical Chinese swords. The swords used in wu shu are much more flexible to facilitate the speed at which practitioners move.

[Kumdo-Star]

Have you even read the other posts? Wu Shu is not indicative of classical Chinese swords. The swords used in wu shu are much more flexible to facilitate the speed at which practitioners move.
but they do use the chinese broad sword which is flexable ( refrence 1 post on thread) asking if the the chinese swords are actualy wobbly

[ShinKenshi]

but they do use the chinese broad sword which is flexable ( refrence 1 post on thread) asking if the the chinese swords are actualy wobbly Again, this is wu shu and using a weapon DESIGNED for wu shu. Classical Chinese swords are just as rigid and strong as the Japanese katana. Read through all the posts and then tell me what you think.

[Kumdo-Star]

Again, this is wu shu and using a weapon DESIGNED for wu shu. Classical Chinese swords are just as rigid and strong as the Japanese katana. Read through all the posts and then tell me what you think.
alright ou have a piont i just got all tied up in Wushu sorry

[JamesD]

I asked a friend of mine who studied Chinese marital arts for a fair time about the dancing style shown in some forms - he mentioned that some techniques are designed for 'crowd control' situations, where multiple, possibly poorly trained, foes are attacking.

In this situation the stylist must keep moving, and attacking, and guard in all directions, and looking impressive can help hold off attacks. I understand that Sikh swordsmanship (Gatka) also has 'crowd control techniques' that are very elaborate and possibly similar to the Chinese technquies.

Clearly if you were doing a demonstration the athletic and eye pleasing 'crowd control' techniques would be a good choice?

[Landorph]

Chinese Martial Arts is about using the Chi.. and Force and other forms of Qingong.

Japanese swordsman can not stand on tip of bamboo can they??

SO CHinese swordsman are a mix between NINJA and Samurai.

Some swords are really well made.. The Ice blade contains ice properly.. it would freeze your oponent once cut in the proper target area.

The Dragon Slayer is a Knife that can cut open the rivers .. and hence some other one can make the waterfall run backwards..

however.. all these arts have being lost.. hence now ppl can only dance like monkies doing WUSHU>


Oh.. Remember Mitsuyugi ? The Japanese Samurai that has a technique called Phoenix tail that can burn fire property on his Katana to strike the oponent.

[kendonewbie]

Chinese Martial Arts is about using the Chi.. and Force and other forms of Qingong.
Japanese swordsman can not stand on tip of bamboo can they??
SO CHinese swordsman are a mix between NINJA and Samurai.
Some swords are really well made.. The Ice blade contains ice properly.. it would freeze your oponent once cut in the proper target area.
The Dragon Slayer is a Knife that can cut open the rivers .. and hence some other one can make the waterfall run backwards..
however.. all these arts have being lost.. hence now ppl can only dance like monkies doing WUSHU>
Oh.. Remember Mitsuyugi ? The Japanese Samurai that has a technique called Phoenix tail that can burn fire property on his Katana to strike the oponent.
I really hope your joking with this.....

[isatay]

Chinese Martial Arts is about using the Chi.. and Force and other forms of Qingong.

Japanese swordsman can not stand on tip of bamboo can they??

SO CHinese swordsman are a mix between NINJA and Samurai.

Some swords are really well made.. The Ice blade contains ice properly.. it would freeze your oponent once cut in the proper target area.

The Dragon Slayer is a Knife that can cut open the rivers .. and hence some other one can make the waterfall run backwards..

however.. all these arts have being lost.. hence now ppl can only dance like monkies doing WUSHU>


Oh.. Remember Mitsuyugi ? The Japanese Samurai that has a technique called Phoenix tail that can burn fire property on his Katana to strike the oponent.


I guess, you watched too much "Crouching Tiger,Hidden Dragon" ...:D

[DragonSword]

actually did u guys notice one stuff.. in chinese history.. song and ming dynasty army mostly used sabre whreas Qin, Han and Tang have include some squad of army using swords.(Especially Qin, their "infantry" mostly use swords) This dynasty are powerful and strong in military. Whreas song and ming dynasty use sabres. As sabres is more versatile, it allow less skillful fighter to use it effectively. However, dynasty which have army using sabre mostly are weak.. look at how strong Qin is.. compare to song and ming.. Well u guys should know i am trying to mean.. seriously.. i dun think chinese swords or swordsmanship are that weak.. Alot of things from history already prove how effective they are..

[Mello Kitty]

Just watch Duel to the Death... all questions will be answered.

http://image.allmusic.com/13/adg/cov200/drt300/t386/t38673g9xx8.jpg

[DragonSword]

Who won in the end?

[Mello Kitty]

Who won in the end?

You'll just have to watch it and see DragonSword.

[HangPC2]

Miao Dao @ Chang Dao (Long Sword)

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1618/0013mb.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7144/0029yh.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3512/0031dz.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3460/0045vs.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/38/0052yh.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4152/0061sg.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9209/0070ox.jpg

Chang Dao (Long Sword) Based Design Form Japanese Nodachi

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/295...word8883iv.jpg

Miao Dao

Miao Dao, developed from Chang Dao (Long Dao) of Ming Dynasty, earned its current name during Republican era (1912 - 1949 AD) when it is untilised by the army.

Miao Dao is longer than most Dao in Chinese History, and is longer than Japanese Katana.

Our Miao Dao are based on design of more recent version of Miao Dao.

Specifications

Standard Blade Length: 80 - 90 CM | 31.5 - 35.5 Inch

Hilt Length: 30 CM | 12 Inch

''Pi Gua Quan Miao Dao'' Miao Dao Method

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/827...rmethod1od.jpg

Historical Background

Miao Dao, often referred to as Chang Dao prior to Republican Era. It was developed in the campaign against pirates (or ?? - WoKou) aka Japanese Pirate @ Japanese Bandits along the Chinese coastline border in Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644 AD).

Miao Dao, along with its martial art was less well known after as it is practice only within few martial art families.

During the war against Japanese invasion in Republican era (1912 - 1949 AD), Miao Dao is again utilised by the army. The name of "Miao Dao" was obtained during this period and the art has since opened to every martial art practitioner.

Credit

http://www.zhengwutang.com/

http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/contact.html

[HangPC2]

Samurai

The Word samurai comes form the old japanese word ‘’ saburau ‘’ meaning ‘’ attendant ‘’ . Samurai are usualy the guardians of castles serving a feudal lord, and in the form Asuka to Edo period a great many of them import and adopted a Confucian , Saurabi (Baekje @ Paekche Warrior) code know as ‘’ Bushido ‘’ and copy guerrilla tactics of the Emishi (Japanese babarian)

[Shiyuan]

katanas are made from solid folded steel, which gives it an extra hard and stiffness, chinese swords are made from inferior materials in a factory run by one sweaty foreman with over 500 sweatshop workers moulding and pressing the metal (possibly aluminum) and they all have made in china written on them. Although recently the quality of the chinese products have become higher so maybe we shall see better products int he future

Hi. I registered just so I could refute this fallacious statement. I am half Chinese and half Japanese and grew learning a style each from both countries: Asayama Ichiden-ryu from my Japanese grandfather, and Bajiquan from my Chinese grandfather. In particular, the kenjutsu aspect of Asayama Ichiden-ryu and Bajiquan's various different sword techniques (Chun Yang Jian for straight broad sword, San Yin Dao for the single-edged curved broad sword, and Chun Qiu Da Dao for the two-handed broad sword) all have their specific strengths and weaknesses depending on the combat situation.

However, it is my experience that Bajiquan's San Yin Dao (as the closest of the sword styles that resembles Japanese single-edge sword techniques) specifically is far superior to the kenjutsu techniques of the Asayama Ichiden-ryu for purposes of a straight up sword fight, due to the superior utilization of balance, space, inside techniques and footwork by Bajiquan. Also, Bajiquan is by no means any more "physically or acrobatically intensive" than Asayama Ichiden-ryu - as some of the posters use seem to generally explain away Chinese martial arts - it just focuses on building different physical strengths.

Also, on a historical note about sword-making, as I am a East Asian Military Historian and an amatuer metallurgist, Chinese swords during most of recorded history (depending on different dynastic standards and econominc prosperity) were far superior to Japanese made ones. It's just that Japanese swords have more rabid fanboys than Chinese swords due to the limited exposure to Chinese swords of the ancient, imperial and medieval periods, which by the way were NOT wobbly. Wobbly weapons are specifically intended for training to build proper wrist and hand technique in manipulating the blade; so with the exception of the belt sword, that was the only purpose of wobbliness.

In fact, any serious student of Japanese military history would note that most of Japan's sword-making techniques were derived from the Chinese mainland at different points in history. Remember, China is a LARGE country, hundreds of different sword styles existed in its far flung provinces, and many different sword-making techniques (for good or ill) resulted from these different attitudes.

The first Japanese sword, the straight double-edged tsurugi, was taken from the ancient Chinese sword design from the early dynasties.

Nextly, every Westerner's favorite lovechild, the katana is also a descendant from Chinese sword-making styles. As some know, the tachi, the katana's grandfather who never quite croaked, is actually a direct copy of an early Chinese Tang Dynasty sword (the name itself is a dead giveaway, as the "ta" in "tachi" - or "da" in "dachi" in some romanizations - is a Japanese phonetic derivative of the Chinese word for single-edged blades, "dao"),used by the coastal Chinese warriors in their many battles with the wako (Japanese pirates who had a surprisingly large percentage of their crews and even captains made up by Chinese and Korean renegades).

Originally, the pirates were armed with whatever they could get their hands on, but after a couple decades of constant violent contact with the coastal Chinese communities, they quickly began capturing Chinese swords for their own use alongside also recruiting Chinese malcontents to their crews. Not only is there evidence of these swords being made by Chinese smiths earlier than in Japan, but also the very nature of their historical depiction when used by Japanese pirates in archaelogical evidence consistently shows the Japanese warriors as much shorter than their Chinese foes and counterparts, and the tachi they wield obviously a bit too long and unwieldly for their small stature. The tachi, alongside Tang Dynasty imperial court fashion and architecture that many people see in Heian Period culture and the ever-present Japanese pagoda, would gain popularity in the Japanese mainland eventually, and by the late Tang Dynasty, the tachi became the weapon of choice for the growing Japanese warrior class who would eventually become known as samurai. (During the Heian Period, the samurai didn't quite exist yet as daimyo were not quite fully formed and yet to have broken away from the central authority of the Japanese emperor who was still in control at this time period.)

Lastly, the whole obsession on "Japanese" folding techniques for blade-forging. There is the whole popular myth of the Japanese smith Amakuni inventing the Japanese sword and the folding technique, which like the story of the creation myth of Japan's isles, is a charming fiction. Like the original design for the tsurugi and the tachi, this was actually a Chinese forging innovation, but never got the same attention or hullabaloo as its Japanese counterpart because the Chinese never made it an important (in regards to talking about it and lionizing it) part of their sword culture.

Why?

Because Chinese swords were often made from good quality iron mined from the northern provinces of the empire. Good iron then is made into good quality steel, and the sword's quality was more likely to be better just due to its raw material. Folding was used quite commonly, but its impact on the quality of a Chinese blade was not given the same near-idolized status it was in Japan, since a Chinese blade did not require so much folding as a Japanese one did.

Why?

Because Japanese steel, tamahagane, was actually quite poor and weak. A blade made with well-tempered but unfolded Chinese steel was not a spectacular specimen, but it was a good reliable weapon. A blade made with well-tempered but unfolded Japanese steel, was a weapon eventually prone to bending or breakage. In order to ensure the quality of a blade, the Japanese smiths had to utilize the folding technique to a higher degree than Chinese swordsmiths. So, to be fair, I can safely say that the Japanese definitely perfected the art of folding the metal, but they did not invent it nor were exclusive employers of it.

Hope that was enlightening for some of you at least. :happy:



Shiyuan

[Kendoka_Han]

Hi. I registered just so I could refute this fallacious statement. I am half Chinese and half Japanese and grew learning a style each from both countries: Asayama Ichiden-ryu from my Japanese grandfather, and Bajiquan from my Chinese grandfather. In particular, the kenjutsu aspect of Asayama Ichiden-ryu and Bajiquan's various different sword techniques (Chun Yang Jian for straight broad sword, San Yin Dao for the single-edged curved broad sword, and Chun Qiu Da Dao for the two-handed broad sword) all have their specific strengths and weaknesses depending on the combat situation.

Agreed.


However, it is my experience that Bajiquan's San Yin Dao (as the closest of the sword styles that resembles Japanese single-edge sword techniques) specifically is far superior to the kenjutsu techniques of the Asayama Ichiden-ryu

Yes, OF the [b]Asayama Ichiden-ryu[b]. Go learn more kenjutsu styles if you wish. Complicate the style, add more from other styles, master the styles and you will see, its not the style that outperforms a different countries style as that is stupidly incorrect. But it is the skill of the person holding the sword actually that you should think about.

"Fear not the sword or style, but the one holding the sword" - Unknown.


for purposes of a straight up sword fight, due to the superior utilization of balance, space, inside techniques and footwork by Bajiquan. Also, Bajiquan is by no means any more "physically or acrobatically intensive" than Asayama Ichiden-ryu - as some of the posters use seem to generally explain away Chinese martial arts - it just focuses on building different physical strengths.

All opinion. Read above.


Also, on a historical note about sword-making, as I am a East Asian Military Historian and an amatuer metallurgist, Chinese swords during most of recorded history (depending on different dynastic standards and econominc prosperity) were far superior to Japanese made ones. It's just that Japanese swords have more rabid fanboys than Chinese swords due to the limited exposure to Chinese swords of the ancient, imperial and medieval periods, which by the way were NOT wobbly.

Eh....ok


Wobbly weapons are specifically intended for training to build proper wrist and hand technique in manipulating the blade; so with the exception of the belt sword, that was the only purpose of wobbliness.

Because thats the style they incoporated in china? Imagine having a wobbly katana or Shinai or Bokuto or Rapier?


In fact, any serious student of Japanese military history would note that most of Japan's sword-making techniques were derived from the Chinese mainland at different points in history.

Wrong, it all came from India. The first Japanese Samurai had straight swords with no pre-set fighting techniques. They were basically people with swords that honoured the emperors.

Then when the chinese and mongolions attacked, they started to think out sword tactics, remake the katana itself. Its a very interesting science in itself (the katana, and the technique for the katana).


Remember, China is a LARGE country, hundreds of different sword styles existed in its far flung provinces, and many different sword-making techniques (for good or ill) resulted from these different attitudes.

Correct.


The first Japanese sword, the straight double-edged tsurugi, was taken from the ancient Chinese sword design from the early dynasties.

China got it from India.


Lastly, the whole obsession on "Japanese" folding techniques for blade-forging. There is the whole popular myth of the Japanese smith Amakuni inventing the Japanese sword and the folding technique, which like the story of the creation myth of Japan's isles, is a charming fiction. Like the original design for the tsurugi and the tachi, this was actually a Chinese forging innovation, but never got the same attention or hullabaloo as its Japanese counterpart because the Chinese never made it an important (in regards to talking about it and lionizing it) part of their sword culture.

What about the Masamune katana? or the Yoshimitsu Katana? or the Dotanuki Katana? They were swords TOTALLY different in science design, compared to any other sword in the world.


Why?

Because Chinese swords were often made from good quality iron mined from the northern provinces of the empire. Good iron then is made into good quality steel, and the sword's quality was more likely to be better just due to its raw material. Folding was used quite commonly, but its impact on the quality of a Chinese blade was not given the same near-idolized status it was in Japan, since a Chinese blade did not require so much folding as a Japanese one did.

Hence the chinese sword was more brittle. The Japanese folded the sword more, allowing more of the softer iron ore to develop IN the katana, to allow better durability. Plus, you cant forget the clay bonding for the katana :D


Why?

Because Japanese steel, tamahagane, was actually quite poor and weak.

How do you know?


A blade made with well-tempered but unfolded Chinese steel was not a spectacular specimen, but it was a good reliable weapon. A blade made with well-tempered but unfolded Japanese steel, was a weapon eventually prone to bending or breakage. In order to ensure the quality of a blade, the Japanese smiths had to utilize the folding technique to a higher degree than Chinese swordsmiths. So, to be fair, I can safely say that the Japanese definitely perfected the art of folding the metal, but they did not invent it nor were exclusive employers of it.

True and False. It all originated from India.

[Shiyuan]

Ah... I see now.

Yes, OF the Asayama Ichiden-ryu[b]. Go learn more kenjutsu styles if you wish. Complicate the style, add more from other styles, master the styles and you will see, its not the style that outperforms a different countries style as that is stupidly incorrect. But it is the skill of the person holding the sword actually that you should think about.

"Fear not the sword or style, but the one holding the sword" - Unknown.[/QUOTE]


All opinion. Read above.

Thank you for bolding an emphasis I already made in my original statement (notice the use of the term, "specific"). ": P Also, the belief that all styles are equal in regards to a skilled practitioner, is also an opinion, and I disagree respectfully. I did not in anyway state that ALL Chinese sword styles are better than ALL Japanese sword styles. I merely stated that as an equal opportunity practitioner of two disparate styles, one was better than the other (my turn to use the bolding code on something already stated) [b]in my experience.




Eh....ok


Wonderful rebuttal of my statement. Here's some sources to satisfy my side of the subject:

Article:

Hwang, Jim. "Excaliburs made in China." Free China Review (Taipei) 44, no.4, (April 1994) p. 66-73

Li, Xueqin. "Early Chinese swords from the C. H. Wang Collection." Orientations (Hong Kong) 26, no.3 (March 1995) p. 60-63

Tom, Philip with Scott M. Rodell. "An Introduction to Chinese Single-Edged Hilt Weapons (Dao) and Their Use in the Ming and Qing Dynasties." Kung Fu Tai Chi, (February 2005) p. 85

Books:

des Rotours, R., Traite des Fonctionnaires et Traite de l'Armee, Traduit de la Nouvelle Histoire des T'ang. (Leiden, 1948) *Yes this is French, I was fortunate enough to get a translated version of this from a colleague.

Werner, E. T. C. Chinese Weapons. (Singapore: Graham Brash, 1989)

Institute of the History of Natural Sciences, Beijing. Ancient China's Technology and Science. (Foreign Languages Press, 1983)

Ranitsch, K-H., The Army of Tang China. (Montvert Publications, 1995)

Happy reading. : )


Because thats the style they incoporated in china? Imagine having a wobbly katana or Shinai or Bokuto or Rapier?

I am not sure what you're getting at here.


Wrong, it all came from India. The first Japanese Samurai had straight swords with no pre-set fighting techniques. They were basically people with swords that honoured the emperors.

Right, I already said the first Japanese sword was a straight double-edged sword. Funny how you keep citing India as developing the sword before the Chinese, when all of the first major river-based civilizations developed the sword more or less independently of each other. Considering the fact that most of those cultures developed swords as the logical next step from a dagger, I would have to assume you also mean that the Chinese were dagger-less until the late Harappan culture (the ancient bronze age Indian civilization who by the way did not explore very much) dispersed it to them.

Also, Japan as a distinct culture does not even come into existence for several centuries after the Zhou Dynasty (the first recorded instance of Chinese swords) until ancient Koreans migrated from the Korean peninsula to the islands and displaced the native Ainu. As a result, borrowing culture and technology from the "Mainland" as the ancient Koreo-Japanese settlers referred to China as, was quite commonplace for this relatively young culture.

Lastly, even if India did pass on the original sword design to China, the Japanese still derived their sword from the Chinese version of the weapon, NOT the Indian. You have not disproved my statement at all.


Then when the chinese and mongolions attacked, they started to think out sword tactics, remake the katana itself. Its a very interesting science in itself (the katana, and the technique for the katana).

I already stated that the tachi was a direct copy of a Chinese design, and that the katana is a descendent of it and the Chinese design. I did state the Japanese did perfect the folding art, which I thought was enough to implicate they did advance the science of it past the original Chinese method.


China got it from India.

Already addressed this.


What about the Masamune katana? or the Yoshimitsu Katana? or the Dotanuki Katana? They were swords TOTALLY different in science design, compared to any other sword in the world.

Already addressed this with the rebuttal.



Hence the chinese sword was more brittle. The Japanese folded the sword more, allowing more of the softer iron ore to develop IN the katana, to allow better durability. Plus, you cant forget the clay bonding for the katana :D

Wow, I am going to have to return the previous rudeness in your casual dismissal of my points by saying, "Wrong." Actually do some real research on Chinese sword smithing techniques, which some info can be located in my sources at the beginning. Yes, clay bonding is innovative, and I already addressed this once again. The fact that the Japanese produced innovative methods of increasing the strength of their poor steel to a level of superbness does not mean that suddenly Chinese metallurgy is inferior by right of novelty alone. Your statement does not refute mine.



How do you know?

I already stated I am a metallurgist, do you know what this trade implies? This combined with the fact that I have lived in Japan before for five years studying the sword-making art with a great uncle of mine who kept the tradition alive out of personal curiousity. The katana is great, but in our popular culture, it's overrated. I have seen medieval European blades that equal or even surpass good Japanese pieces from contemporary periods. Look up the Schweizersabel.



True and False. It all originated from India.

Unproven statement. Find sources that state the definite fact that Chinese swords were based off Indian swords.

[Alison2805]

IPPON! :silly:

that was beautiful.

[Kendoka_Han]

You are correct.

[Shiyuan]

You are correct.

::Bows to you::

"Domo arigato gozaimasu!"

[Kendoka_Han]

::Bows to you::

"Domo arigato gozaimasu!"

::Bows to you::

[Gessho]

Anyway, the sword making skills of chinese were at the top of the world during ancient time. While the Greek and then the Roman were still using short sword (because if they forged a longer one, it would break during battle),.

The Gauls and Germans used long swords that were effective. I think the Romans used the short sword (taken from a Spanish design) because of their unit tactics which emphasized cohesion over the man-to-man type of attacks used by the Gauls and Germans.

We should ask Asterix and Obelix what they think...:cheerful: