what does is take ???

[ShÖgun]

what does it take to open a kendo school???
I'm from Trinidad in the caribbean and there is no schools here. I think that a kendo school would be extremly successful down here.
The only reason i know kendo is the fact that my father is a sensei of a karate school here, and he was taught the basic and he pass it to me.

[Confound]

I would humbly suggest that one should have at least fifth dan, for starters. That seems to be the going rate for teaching, or at least it's the point where we call people around here sensei, for you fact checkers and note takers.

that's the bare minimum. There are all manner of other things a person should have. There was a thread in the not so distant past about what makes a good sensei. I'm too lazy to link it for you, but a simple search should turn it up easily.

c

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Godan is a nice lofty goal but not often practical outside of Japan. Here in Canada you need only have a godan head instructor who signs the application to become a member of CKF, ie its good enough to have someone who will visit once in a while to set you on the straight and narrow.

Personally, I say if you've got someone with a little experience to lead practice and you can manage to import a real instructor every so often, go for it. Just be very clear about the difference between a dojo lead and an instructor. The dojo lead's responsibility should be, to the best of his ability, to guide the class along the path set by the instructor. The dojo lead should avoid the trap of considering himself an instructor, being careful to not let his responsibilities go to his head. Regular beatings from visiting instructor help both to provide guidance to the class and a reality check to the lead.

If you're in a fair sized centre which hasn't had exposure to kendo before and you're an enthusiastic organizer, you may be able to get together enough people and cash to make this work. I know the club in Halifax sure got going with a schwack of people and enthusiasm and not much else.

[ben]

I believe the IKF also has support programs for New Kendo Countries where they donate equipment and send out Japanese sensei to help kendo become established. I'm not sure of the requirements or application processes though.

Anyone?

b

[Confound]

I do not consider go-dan a lofty goal, I consider it a pre-requisite for me even considering the place as a potential training spot. This is why I plan never to move back to Halifax. The mere possibility depresses me.

It seems pointless to me to attend practice with a person called a 'dojo lead' who isn't an instructor, but in the rgand human tradition of glorification, will undoutedly let it go to their head, and become a boorish clod. I humbly submit that the lofty goal is a 'dojo lead' who does not let such a position go to their head, rather than the desire for a go-dan sensei.

c

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
I do not consider go-dan a lofty goal, I consider it a pre-requisite for me even considering the place as a potential training spot.
Be a little bit practical. Most people do not have the ability to move somewhere to find a suitable instructor. Most people's priorities are different than that. So looking down your nose at a group who is trying to get kendo instruction going where they live is not productive at all.
I humbly submit that the lofty goal is a 'dojo lead' who does not let such a position go to their head
Ironic words from someone who routinely pontificates from their lofty position as a beginner in kendo.

[kendokamax]

confound I suggest that you quit kendo when in canada.

You are asking too much, who the hell do you think you are?
I want at least a go-dan sensei blablabla.

It really doesnt matter as much you know. You are shodan now, you are big enough to start learning by yourself without having someoen always correcting you. Of course if you stay in such a dojo for a long time and dont go to competitions or other dojo to visits your kendo. For me a sensei is just someone who gives me some pointers. All the work is done by you, whoever the teacher is.

[nodachi]

Upon speaking to various budo involved people here (not just Kendo people, but some of them too), they always ask why I came to Japan and if I want to teach Kendo when I return home. As I think that would be great, I am years away from teaching others Kendo. After expressing that to them, most of them seem to think that it is not unreasonable to teach others after having "obtained a strong understanding of the basics". Granted they know I am going to be here for probably 3 to 5 years so that will be a pretty good handle on the basics, but "understanding the basics" well probably shouldn't take until godan. Of course shodan seems super early too, but somewhere in the middle doesn't seem unreasonable to lots of people here.

As a side note, for people who may not feel they are exactly qualified for starting a school, why not start a club? Don't call yourself a sensei, but simply someone who wanted to do Kendo with others and share it. Does that change the nature of this question and make it require less experience? Maybe...

[Confound]

Nodachi, EVERYONE will say that to you in Japan, it's part of the 'compliment' culture. Do you seriously think you know enough to teach?

Mr. Gendzwill, I am a beginner, but a thoughtful one. The things I write are not random spewing into the void, they are carefully considered. I suspect you are one of those very interesting people who believes that thinking about politics is the exclusive domain of television commentators. To be honest, there are many subjects related to kendou upon which I would not venture an opinion, because of scanty knowledge. However, my experience with dojo leads has been that they tend to get an inflated head.

That said, I would rather have training partners who can teach me reliably than fart around with a 'dojo leader' (it sounds like some kind of sickly politically correct term, it makes my skin crawl) who can't offer good advice and may as well as not be a rank beginner as well.

Kendoukamax: about me quitting kendou, you wish...

confound

[nodachi]

Actually, some of the people who told me having a solid foundation of the basics being enough to teach others were people who spent sometime (measured in years) living in other countries. In fact, some of them have lost that part of their compliment culture. They are some of the most blunt people I have ever met. If you ask them if you know enough to teach, they are the kind of people who would say hell no, or some variation of that without thinking, and right to your face. I don't think they were playing compliments to be nice. Although I know they seem like strange Japanese people for this.

And no, I know I don't know enough to teach now. That is quite obvious to me. I said after 3 or 5 years maybe, but now, of course not. And even after 3 or 5 years, I probably still won't feel ready, and will not teach. It's just a dream. I am packing it away for much later. Not everyone is arrogant, so please don't assume I am being so. And please don't take this as me calling you arrogant, as I am not.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
I suspect you are one of those very interesting people who believes that thinking about politics is the exclusive domain of television commentators.
Eh? I don't get that comment at all.
That said, I would rather have training partners who can teach me reliably than fart around with a 'dojo leader'
Well, yeah and all things considered I'd like to be training with Nishikawa-sensei. But you're missing the point. You're suffering from a severe case of shodan disease, so cock-sure in your newfound knowledge that you're not even hearing the opposing viewpoint. Of course, the ideal case is to have a strong sensei. Contrary to what kendokamax said, shodan is not enough to train on your own and it certainly isn't enough to be teaching others if there are other options. But if that's all that's available, if there is no other option, if you don't have the luxury of living in Japan and choosing from a smorgasbord of dojos and sensei, then you have to consider what your options are. There's a) not training at all or b) making the best of the situation.

Suppose you do go back to Canada. If you want to train with a godan or higher sensei your options are Vancouver, Victoria, Saskatoon, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal. That's it, that's all. You can get close in Edmonton or Winnipeg, there's a yondan both places. In Regina depending on the time of year it's either a shodan, nidan or sandan. In Halifax there's a dojo lead of 1 or 2 dan. In Ottawa and Quebec City there's a club, not sure the instructor level. Everywhere else in the country there's *no* kendo at all. Suppose your life situation lands you in Kelowna or Moncton. You gonna just hang up your bogu and say "I guess I'm done"? Or are you going to rise to the challenge and get kendo going where you are?

[AlexM]

There is at least one good sensei (5th dan) in Quebec City and a couple of good 4th dans. Ottawa has at least one good sensei, nice guy too.

I think Max didn't mean you can learn by yourself, he meant that it's time to start watching and learning without having to be told exactly what to do.

Mr. G., you just named pretty much every "major" (and I use the term loosely. . . Victoria?) city in the country comprising about 90%-95% of the total population. Odds are poor Counfound will be somewhere in the vicinity of a dojo with sensei. However, she might not get a choice of sensei. By aware though that the highest ranking sensei does not mean they are the best club in a given area. Club cultures differ greatly from one to the other, that's why it's fun to travel.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Winnipeg there's only one club. Up until a couple of years ago there was nothing in Edmonton or Regina. Calgary didn't have a senior instructor until Dean Ara moved there a few years ago but somehow they kept kendo going there. In Winnipeg is a really good example of what I'm talking about. Tom Yamashita was left with responsibility for the club there when the sensei retired. He was nidan at the time I think. But through perservence and dedication (and a lot of help from his partner in crime Corie Namba), he has managed to hold that club together and haul himself up to yondan in the process. It took a lot of work, time and money. He held annual seminars, he travelled a lot himself to build up his own kendo, the club travelled to seminars and tournaments together. If Tom had decided to fold up the club just because there was no sensei, a lot of people in Winnipeg would have been out of luck. Corie made the national team, twice, under this situation. They currently have a large, enthusiastic club whose love for kendo is infectious. It doesn't seem so horrible to me. Tom has retained his normal-sized head throughout the process although he certainly deserves to be proud of what he has accomplished for Manitoba kendo.

[kendokamax]

ah ya we saw Tom Yamashita getting his 4th dan last grading.

Congratulations to them (winnipeg dojo.)! I think Corie was like shodan when she was obligated to take care of most of the stuff(leading practice etc) in the dojo. And she made team canada twice! Without having the chance to have a sensei at their dojo.

kinda amazing

[2muchryt]

back to the original post,,, (shogun is not from canada)

my (probably incorrect) opinion is
first of all, you must find a sensei. more than just teaching you sword techniques, a real sensei guides you spiritually and in life. its a very special, life long relationship. if you are beggining kendo,
then before you do anything, you must find your sensei.

personally, i think 5 dan is kind of low. only because that in theory,
you can get 5 dan in only 14 or so years. hardly enough time to become
a master. that is not to say that we can't learn from sensei who are
4-6 dan, of course we can. but when it comes to picking that very special
one whom you will call "my sensei" i would say 7or 8 dan sounds about right.

if you have a group of people that are interested in kendo,
car pool it, fly, bicycle, walk, or hitch hike ("the way of the sword is hard") to the nearest/highest ranking sensei you can find, sincerely express your desire to learn kendo and just ask him (or her) if he (or she)
will be your sensei.
your group can pratice many times during the week.
then as many times as possible go to your sensei and train with your sensei. your group doesn't need a "dojo leader" when your sensei is not there,
just do the best you can, and your sensi will guide and
correct you when you can find the time to attend his (or her) dojo.
but if your group wants to practice, i would think that its better to practice
by yourselve or with other students than to not practice at all.

a note of caution, if you do practice without a sensei,
i kind of agree with confound in that, if a personality arises in your
practice group such as a "dojo leader" then they can possibly
"let it go to their head, and become boorish clods".
so always be humble, respect the sempai/kohai relationship,
and always try to follow the teachings of your sensei.

i say go ahead and form a practice group, after
you have made the quest that all swordmen have
made throughout the ages:
find a sword master.

[nodachi]

I suppose the moral of the story is to aim to find a sensei with as high a level as possible. Of course, some places don't have access to high dan sensei, so you find the highest you can. As long as they are a high level than you, then you can learn from them, and when you have absorbed all the info they can give you, then you look for another high more knowledgeable teacher. Like dojo hopping that everyone talks about to learn from people's different styles.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by 2muchryt
back to the original post,,, (shogun is not from canada)
Yeah, he's from Trinidad and Tobago, that hotbed of kendo. Not!
if you are beggining kendo,
then before you do anything, you must find your sensei.

personally, i think 5 dan is kind of low [snip] i would say 7or 8 dan sounds about right.
OK, here's where you've got the same blinders on as Confound. You live in LA with what, 9, 10 clubs, at least one hachidan and a bunch of sensei? This is one of the best areas in the world outside of Japan to be practicing kendo in. Pretty easy for you to "find your sensei". I think shogun is going to have a lot tougher time of it.

[ShÖgun]

thanks everyone for the input, so what i gather is that this will take a lot of time and work to make it happen. Right now i am in the US studying, i have joined a kendo club up here, but i only train once a week cause the club is friggin 2 hours away. but at least i actually be taught.

[Atama]

Shogun

I am having similar problems learning naginata as there is no school in the uk.......however there are a couple of us intrested in it and we intend to start practicing together ...without a sensie. I study from books and video footage it'll take a long time but I will get there eventually.

After reading most of this thread I found that theres a lot of negative people who don't belive in their own initiative. My sensie told me of a guy from Scotland (whoes name escapes me) he apparently taught himself kendo mainly from books and managed to catch a few classes a year he's now a 6 or 7 dan...so don't be so quick to dismiss peoples ability to learn, although it is great to have a high ranking sensie it can be don't with a few dedicated people.


Lisa Do-Shin-Ken-Yu-Kai

[David J]

Hey, well said Atama - and good luck with the naginata.

This is a good parallel I think. Right now naginata in the uk is pretty minimal, but if people like Atama and others keep on going, maybe a wandering sensei will come along....who knows? If they'd taken the approach of "well, we cant find a good local sensei, so lets forget it", this will never happen.

I think the "if you build it, they will come" thing applies here - get some Kendo going in Trinidad now if you can (or when you return anyway), even if its really limited. And one day....

<rei>

Dave

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by ShÖgun
what does it take to open a kendo school???
I'm from Trinidad in the caribbean and there is no schools here. I think that a kendo school would be extremly successful down here.
The only reason i know kendo is the fact that my father is a sensei of a karate school here, and he was taught the basic and he pass it to me.

I takes guts and determination.

If there are no higher grade kendo people to help you in Trinidad, then start the school yourself, under the guidance of your dad maybe.

Many (non Japan) kendo groups started with ungraded people with questionable technique, but they worked hard and grabbed every opportunity to learn from others.

The national Kendo association in Australia now has over 500 members, but Kendo in Australia started like that because people followed their interest and now we have Aus 7th, 6th and 5th dans (graded in Jaoan as well).

Do it.


Richard

[hamish]

Shogun, your best bet initially would be to get in touch with former European Champ Sergio Velasquez in Aruba, as I think he probably knows more than anyone what is happening in the Caribbean scene. I'll PM his address to you.

We got naginata started in New Zealand on the strength of a 2 day seminar with 2 Japanese sensei, and although things were (and still are) tough, its still going.

That determination to do kendo, even if there's no-one else doing it in your area (above 5th dan!) is what kendo's really about, the level isn't as important as the will. (within reason - see Neil's comments above)

If anything, I've found most dojo run by young, lower graded dojo leaders to have some of the more energised, focused atmospheres around.

Good luck, Shogun

[2muchryt]

Congratulations Shogun.
I am glad you found your Sensei.
2 hours away is tough. I know.
Even though I live in Los Angeles, my teacher is
about an hour away. and in L.A. Traffic, it sometimes
takes me a couple of hours to get there.
Gambatte Kudasai!
But I didn't mean to say : dont start a club in your area.
By all means do.
Good luck to you and your fellow kenshi.
With more people like you who are willing
to dedicate yourself and work hard,
you can eventually, actually help make
Trinidad and Tobago, a "hotbed of kendo"
in the Carribien.

P.S.
Sorry for being so "negitive"

[ShÖgun]

Originally posted by 2muchryt
With more people like you who are willing
to dedicate yourself and work hard,
you can eventually, actually help make
Trinidad and Tobago, a "hotbed of kendo"
in the Carribien.


i do hope so, i hope i'm not wasting my time.

oh and its Caribbean not Carribien :D

[Confound]

Having been on vacation, I didn't have a chance to respond to your comments, Mr. Gendzwill, excuse my late reply.

I am not cocksure. As for sho-dan disease, I highly doubt it. It doesn't seem reasonably to me to want to train in an environment with low standards. Obviously, it is not always possible to have what we want, this is reality, not the reification of our thoughts and desires. Having stated I want, there is room for negotiation; however, I will never train in a dojo that has nothing more to offer me than a sho-dan dojo leader.

I prefer to be a bottom feeder in a dojo, it gives me more time to learn, and leaves very little time for me to impede the learning of others. It seems highly irresponsible for me to even try to teach someone at this stage, let alone assume a prominent role in a dojo. No thanks, I'll sit at the bottom of the line, it's where I should be.

c

ps - Ah, and as to the television commentator insult, it apparent proved too subtle. Think on it a bit more.

[munenmuso]

Our club started with enthusiasts who do not even hold shodan ranks, that was several decades ago. If you are in a country where kendo is almost never heard, you will only need committed firebrands who has the political will and the ability to organize people and commit their time to establish the cornerstone. As long as there is even a small club even with less skilled people ,cause there is not even a choice, it can start a chain reaction of events that will lead to many purposive benefits to the promotion to the club. This will lead to connection with the Japanese embassy to ask for their support or patronage for funding and to alert their Japanese expats who has the know-how in teaching kendo. Of course, as long as there is a club to teach, people will come even if there are only upstarts like you who havent even hold a shiani in their life.Like in the case of our club, we now have 7th,5th,6th dan sensei from Japan. As long as you have a club with people with the heart for kendo you will never go wrong.

Shogun, unlike Confound who has the choice to go only for 5th dans and up cause she is in Japan, you don't have the choice but togo forward even with people who knows only the basics of kendo. You don't have a choice, cause your in Trinidad, but to go on. Make use whatever is available. Quoting Confound's Dagova analogy,:you will find what you only bring with you.

Anyway, goodluck..

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by Confound
however, I will never train in a dojo that has nothing more to offer me than a sho-dan dojo leader.
Once more missing the point completely. You live in Japan, you have a choice. The original poster has no choice.

Should you ever move where there is no dojo, and do not wish to start one, I understand. It's difficult to try to get kendo going in the wilderness. However, for people who have the desire, it's counter productive for you to state flatly that godan is a minimum level required to have kendo even exist in a place.

[2muchryt]

doesn't the original poster have a choice?.
cant he find a sensei somewhere in the states (as he has already done)
or in japan. and get started, keep a dialouge and just see his sensei as much as possible. and in the mean time start his kendo club in his own town with what ever resources he has.after a while, he can then petition his area's remei for membership/support including possibly a sensei that could vist and teach.
who knows what it could grow into. in a few years you will probably be able to score a 5-7 dan sensei and then that in turn will attract higher level students. take a good look at the history of manilas kendo club for example. there are a more than a few cultural parallels between the caribien and the phillipine islands. i say go for it.

[Steve]

This discussion is quite interesting. Since I'm technically the "Dojo Lead" here in Halifax, i'll add my two cents.

If we had the ability to get a full time sensei here in Halifax, i think i'd break down and cry! (in joy) But, honestly, thats pretty much never gonna happen. We're just too isolated. But, thats no reason to stop practicing, and it sure as heck isn't grounds to imply our club isn't worth the dirt you walk on. Its quite stunning the amount you can learn from books, videos, and friendly criticism amongst your fellow students. In fact, i have spoken with a number of sensei who say that that is sometimes a better method of learning Kendo than if you did have a sensei; self-learning. In fact, many of the Sensei who know us are usually quite impressed with how much we actually do know.

Instead of having a regular sensei around, we rely on Kendo seminars, tournaments, and special events to help refine our errors and give us guidance on how/what to practice. Self-learning is not as thorough as a hands on sensei, but no less valid either. Before you begin destesting your prospects in Halifax, why not come and practice with us first....our door is always open to visitors. The club has evolved quite a bit since you were last here. We may mamage surprise you.

[Steve]

Oh, just to re-enforce what Mr. Gendxwill was saying, we do have Sensei's visit us as often as is possible, as well as attend as many events as we can.

Here is a short list. (sales pitch for visitors to come to Halifax? Hell Yeah!) <wink> <wink> <nudge> <nudge>

1) Sensei Roy Asa, 7th Dan, president CKF
2) Andrew Asa, 4th Dan
3) Sensei Bryan Asa , 6th Dan
4) Sensei Matthew Raymond, 5th Dan, Team Canada Member
5) Sensei D'orangeville, 6th Dan
6) Sensei Ohmi, 6th Dan Kendo, 7th Dan Iaido
7) Eddie Yamashita, 4th Dan, Team Canada Member

Even though our contact with these people is not constant, whenever we meet with them they take special care to see that our club is on the right track.

What else can i say? If our club isn't enough to satisfy your kendo needs sight unseen, as unfortunate as that is, that's life. We'll still be practicing...

[kendokamax]

go Halifax go!

Really there isnt many people you can find more enthousiastic about kendo than this bunch of people. Every tournament or particular events we see them. Always there!! And you dont even know what kind of problems they had to deal with in the past few months!

With their courage and perseverance something great will come for sure to them, one day.

see you in UofT tournament guys

[ShÖgun]

what if i want to represent Trinidad in the world kendo championships.
I would need a kendo club would'nt I

[kendokamax]

haha well ya of course you need a club....also you would need to have play some kendo before.

Just one thing to make things clear thought, you might not need a super sensei but you need other students! you cant learn kendo alone or with just a friend like that. It needs a group.

[Steve]

I think in order to start your own club, you'll need some form of permission from a "governing kendo organization". In our case, we were given permission by CKF Sensei Roy Asa himself. You'll also need to be admitted as members to that organization via the recomendation/authorization of a Sensei from that governing body. Again for us, Asa Sensei took this responsibility.

I guess what I'm saying is that your first step ought to be contacting whichever Kendo federation "governs" your area.